Life Orb vs Choice items

BadBoy08

The other day my friend was looking at my venomoth nicknamed nevon and he said that why do I have choice specs on it when I could just put a life orb on it. Then I told him that since my venomoth is a special attacker it would benefit it more with the choice specs than the life orb. But he said why not the life orb it lets you use more than just one move and it provides more power than the choice specs would and the only thing you receive bad from it is the recoil damage. My question to you guys and girls is which is better for my venomoth life orb or choice specs.

Also here is my venomoth's stats and moveset

Venomoth @ choice specs
Ability Tinted Lens
Lv. 100
nature Timid
HP 258
Attack 142
Defense 141
Special Attack 277
Special Defense 163
Speed 303

Moveset
Psychic
Sludge Bomb
Bug Buzz
Giga Drain
 
Life Orb:
10% recoildamage per turn.
30% stronger attack.

Specs:
50% more power, speciall attack only.
you can only use one move until you switch out.
 
Honestly, there are three reasons to use Life Orb over Choice Band/Specs on a Pokemon that is supposed to hit hard:

1) You suck at predicting (which isn't as big of a deal with Venomoth, since nothing "resists" tinted lens hits unless they can get a 4X resister or an immunity)
2) You have non-attacking moves you need to use (Nasty Plot/Calm Mind/Swords Dance/Dragon Dance/Bulk Up/Curse/Any Healing Move/Status Moves. Your Venomoth has none of these)
3) You're worried that after you KO the opponent, the Pokemon can send in something that will easily take the hit you are locked in to and get a free turn to set up. (This shouldn't be a huge deal with Venomoth. Odds are, if they wouldn't take much from one of your hits, they wouldn't take much from any of them)
 
Short answer: Venomoth is better with specs because little to nothing resists its best attack, Bug Buzz.

Actual Discussion:

I was actually just talking to Chris about this exact topic. No matter what you say, "prediction" is really just glorified guessing. So unless you need the extra power from choice band to achieve some INCREDIBLY specific 2HKO's, the threat of being locked in to an attack is not worth it. That and the 10% recoil is generally negligable. I'd rather take the slight lowering in damage in order to switch my moves around than make a potentially fatal guess that leaves me on the defensive. Life Orb is generally the superior item to the power raising Choice items.
 
In your 'Moth, I would reccomend Choice Specs, along with most of the people. Bug Buzz is neutral in everything thanks to Tinted Lens (except 4x resists) and you don't have setup moves.

Along with the actual disscussion, I agree with LonelyNess. Except if you need more power for specific 1HKO's and 2HKO's with Choice Specs/Band.
And besides, if one is bad at prediction, the choice item may leave them on a bad position in the game and, in most sweepers, the LO recoil is negletable.
 
But he said why not the life orb it lets you use more than just one move and it provides more power than the choice specs
Click to expand...

tell your friend choice specs boosts by 20% more than life orb

also, QQ/QA
 
LonelyNess said:
Short answer: Venomoth is better with specs because little to nothing resists its best attack, Bug Buzz.

Actual Discussion:

I was actually just talking to Chris about this exact topic. No matter what you say, "prediction" is really just glorified guessing. So unless you need the extra power from choice band to achieve some INCREDIBLY specific 2HKO's, the threat of being locked in to an attack is not worth it. That and the 10% recoil is generally negligable. I'd rather take the slight lowering in damage in order to switch my moves around than make a potentially fatal guess that leaves me on the defensive. Life Orb is generally the superior item to the power raising Choice items.
Click to expand...

how about where you "guess" wrong, do less damage, take 10% recoil damage anyway, and may still have to switch out, negating any advantage the freedom of move choice gives you


edit: opening under the condition no one talk about venomoth specifically or whatever, because this evidently isn't a "simple question" after all and can spark some real discussion
 
Jumpman16 said:
how about where you "guess" wrong, do less damage, take 10% recoil damage anyway, and may still have to switch out, negating any advantage the freedom of move choice gives you


edit: opening under the condition no one talk about venomoth specifically or whatever, because this evidently isn't a "simple question" after all and can spark some real discussion
Click to expand...

And if you're faster and kill it with another move/can live a hit from the opponent and KO or severely damage back? In that case, LO pays off.
 
so we are talking taking less than 70% damage from the "counter" that's been switched in, generously assuming you've taken no damage prior at all, then. I say 70% because I don't care if you can strike something twice and be between 1 and 10%, you are going to be forced out next turn even if you managed to kill something and that's not my idea of a "payoff".

and this is also assuming that most power choice users are both faster than their supposed counters (even though they can have scarf to guarantee they go first) and that they will be able to muster enough damage to kill the offending pokemon in one shot...i dont know dude. both have their merits but literally no one would use choice band and choice specs if LO were always superior, unless you think everyone in the community is too much of a sheep to branch out
 
I'm not saying LO is always better that Band/Specs. Specs or Band CAN get some suprise kills that LO can't because of it's superior power boost and they deal damage faster. They both have it's uses. If you want to set up or do any kind of support move, use LO. If you want extra damage, don't want/need to set up or support and want to do damage faster, use CB/CSpecs.
 
yeah but i think the argument LN is making doesn't concern "set up or do any kind of support move". obviously if you have something like dragon dance at your disposal you by definition have more options, and wouldn't always want to limit them, but a DD Sala and a CB Sala play entirely differently anyway so it doesn't make sense to compare LO and CB in that regard. to be totally fair, the only variable should be the item, and maybe your HP EVs so you can have your "10 recoils and survive with 1HP" or whatever, but the movesets should definitely be identical in a LO to CB/Specs comparison.
 
There is one other item to consider for sweepers (though probably not in the case of Venomoth): Expert Belt.
Pros: Increases the power of super effective moves by 20%.
Cons: None whatsoever.
 
Expert Belt cons? Here's a big one; no boost w/o hitting super effective? That blows. A lot of the times, you end up hitting stuff neutral (especially against Blissey) where LO's pop is extremely important.

Expert Belt should almost never be used on a stat-up sweeper. Think DDMence; Outrage hits only Dragons super effective. And no one in their right mind would send in a non-scarfed Dragon to take that thing on. Instead, Outrage usually ends up hitting a lot of stuff neutral, so you need LO power to give the boost for a kill. Or scizor bullet punch; steel hits super effective on...rock and ice. Expert belt is really useful right there. Or Lucario's Close Combat; expert belt doesn't give him a boost against all these physical walls: Forry, Skarmory, Hippowdon, Swampert (and probably more). And none of his other attacks will get a boost either (except Ice Punch on Hippow).

There are too many times that a sweeper needs to hit hard with a neutral hit to warrant expert belt.

Only on wall breakers, because they have a ton of coverage that allow them to hit a lot of pokemon super effective. Even then, sometimes that 20% can be a let down (like on Infernape, who often needs that extra 10% to get a 1HKO).
 
But if you're trying to hit something neutrally you won't get any boost whatsoever. I can see it working on like Electivire, Gengar or MixNite... but not on a full blown sweeper like DD Gyarados (well I prefer Leftovers on him, but that's besides the point). Depends on the Pokemon really.
 
wildfire393 said:
Honestly, there are three reasons to use Life Orb over Choice Band/Specs on a Pokemon that is supposed to hit hard:

1) You suck at predicting (which isn't as big of a deal with Venomoth, since nothing "resists" tinted lens hits unless they can get a 4X resister or an immunity)
2) You have non-attacking moves you need to use (Nasty Plot/Calm Mind/Swords Dance/Dragon Dance/Bulk Up/Curse/Any Healing Move/Status Moves. Your Venomoth has none of these)
3) You're worried that after you KO the opponent, the Pokemon can send in something that will easily take the hit you are locked in to and get a free turn to set up. (This shouldn't be a huge deal with Venomoth. Odds are, if they wouldn't take much from one of your hits, they wouldn't take much from any of them)
Click to expand...

4) Life Orb gives you 30% more damage on both attacking stats while Choice items only give you 50% to one.
 
I think I should quantify my post a little better. If you are a FAST sweeper, Life Orb will be the better item. Take Aerodactyl for example. If it's choiced, Lucario wouldn't be that bad of a switch-in if you're expecting a CB Stone Edge because it resists 4X and can take advantage of the opportunity to get a Swords Dance up. Same with Salamence switching in on a Choiced Earthquake. But if you're LO, sure you lose some of you power, but it's completely worth it to threaten these two if you make the wrong prediction.

I will conceed that a Choice Band is likely better for things like a Tyranitar where going first against an opponent isn't a likely scenario, but for fast things like Shaymin-S / Aerodactyl / Weavile / etc... Life Orb is definitely the superior item.
 
I agree with lonelyness, a choice item is best on a slow, bulkier attacker like Tyranitar and Rhyperior. LO is best on mixed attackers and faster sweepers like Infernape. Choice scarf however, is better than LO on slow things
 
One (small) advantage to expert belt is that it gives the appearance of CB. In some cases that surprise could be helpful. I'm still not going to uses it but if we are listing pros and cons that should be one.
 
LonelyNess said:
I think I should quantify my post a little better. If you are a FAST sweeper, Life Orb will be the better item. Take Aerodactyl for example. If it's choiced, Lucario wouldn't be that bad of a switch-in if you're expecting a CB Stone Edge because it resists 4X and can take advantage of the opportunity to get a Swords Dance up. Same with Salamence switching in on a Choiced Earthquake. But if you're LO, sure you lose some of you power, but it's completely worth it to threaten these two if you make the wrong prediction.

I will conceed that a Choice Band is likely better for things like a Tyranitar where going first against an opponent isn't a likely scenario, but for fast things like Shaymin-S / Aerodactyl / Weavile / etc... Life Orb is definitely the superior item.
Click to expand...

The thing about choice items is that they are based around prediction. For example, if it were CBWeavile vs. (non scarf) Salamence, the person with Salamence would obviously switch out, probably to an ice resist for fear of Ice Punch or Ice Shard. The person with the weavile should know that the guy with the Salamence is very likely to switch, and use Night Slash or Brick Break or Pursuit and hit something hard.

If you can predict well, then Choice Items can give you some huge payoff.
 
Choice Band/Specs or Life Orb depends entirely on the Pokémon.

I'll talk about Flygon as I've been working on him a lot more than otherwise. He's not very fast and takes like 30-40 from resisted shit like Heatran Fire Blast and CBTar Stone Edge, so in his case Life Orb can work against him pretty easily (though he does oneshot both of those with a Life Orb Earthquake). The odds of late game sweeping with a Flygon are low due to the Speed, so scratch another potential use for Life Orb. With Life Orb, he can do things like DM / EQ waters for a 2HKO, which can be nice.

Choice Band Flygon gets several specific KOs that the Life Orb Flygon misses out on, doesn't take damage when attacking, and is too slow to sweep anyway.

The Flygon example here is ideal since he doesn't have Nasty Plot or Swords Dance. In general, if you have high Speed, use some sort of mix attacking, or use a boosting move, go Life Orb. If you need it for KOs or have low speed / decent bulk, Choice item.

Life Orb's awesomeness can't be understimated though. It's a really fantastic item, and if anything it's "the most harmful thing in the metagame", not SR. (No, we shouldn't ban either)
 
This is DPP. One free turn is all that's needed to swing things the opponent's way. I just don't feel comfortable yielding that free turn each time, which is why I'm very hesitant to use Choiced Pokes sheerly for their power.

Choiced Pokemon, as far as I'm concerned, should only be used as a means to a very specific end (e.g. CB Duggy) or as last resort checks against a sweep (e.g. Scarftran, Scarfmin) or as lategame cleaners. The free turn that the opponent may obtain midway through the battle could be really dangerous.

E.g. Lucario coming in on CB TTar Crunch.

Life Orb is an excellent item, since it doesn't restrict you in your move selection, while giving you that boost in power which some Pokemon really require (e.g.Infernape), however it does restrict you, in that the 10% HP you lose every attack can quickly start to gain significance if you also take into consideration the cost of switching in (Spikes, SR), and the possible costs of staying in (SS, hail, attacks).

So really, there is a price of using either of these items and Pokemon that use them should be used at the correct moment, since the cost could be too high.
 
I've always debated this with myself; I came to the conclusion that even if I got 20% more power my opponent either way would switch to something who can generally counter my poke, hence, why I tend to chose Life Orb over Specs/Band. Although, when it comes to STAB moves which are barely resisted by few things and you can create a team to eliminate its resistances then it is obvious which item is better.
 
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