Lets actually talk about Mew in OU...

kd24

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Okay so after reading that last thread on Mew I thought perhaps it does deserve a discussion only a more thought out one. So after analyzing everything and presenting some damage calcs hopefully we can discuss a bit more on Mew.

First thing first, for Mew to even be considered in OU we have to see if it is too powerful in stats as well as attacks.

Well, Mew has about 110 attacks and remember it can not sketch attacks like smeargle it just learns every TM, HM, and Move Tutor move. Mew also has attacks it learns naturally although those are not as big as you think. So lets look at Mew's usuable moveset.
Psychic
Barrier
Amnesia
Baton Pass
Nasty Plot
Aura Sphere
Focus Punch
Calm Mind
Roar
Toxic
Bulk Up
Taunt
Ice Beam
Thunderbolt
Earthquake
Shadow Ball
Brick Break
Flamethrower
Roost
Energy Ball
Will-O-Wisp
Explosion
Shadow Claw
Rock Polish
Stone Edge
Thunder Wave
Swords Dance
Stealth Rock
Dark Pulse
X-Scissor
Grass Knot
U-Turn
Substitute
Hypnosis

Okay, so it is still a lot of attacks but not as many as you think. In reality Mew has 34 attacks it will use. And out of those 34 Mew will actually cut some out. Mew will not use energy ball ever. Mew will pass on Dark Pulse. Stealth Rock can be left to others as mew has other work to be doing. Mew wants to pass stuff not screw you up so besides Hypnosis it will not be running status so take off Thunder Wave, Will-O-Wisp, and Toxic. Honestly Mew wants the most efficent pass so it will focus on those +2 stats boosting attacks. So I would cross out Calm Mind and Bulk Up. And since Mew is destroyed by Pursuit and has access to Baton Pass it will not be U-Turning. Now if you can figure out what Mew is doing you can figure out the rest of its attacks since now it only has 20 it will ever use. It is simple to see this.

If Mew is using Sub, Hypnosis, Stat-Boosters (such as Swords Dance), and obviously Baton Pass then it will be most likely a Baton Passer. And I think we can assume that is what it will be. And usually that Moveset will be-

Timid Nature
EVS: 252 HP / 36 Def / 220 Spe
Hypnosis + Stat Booster + Baton Pass + Attack or Sub.
Usually an attack so TauntWeavile would not totally shut it down.

Now if you see Mew using attacks like Flamethrower and Ice Beam then it is SpecsMew or Life Orb Mew depending if you see him taking damage from his item. Only thing to watch out for here is Life Orb Mew might run Hypnosis.

The same can be said for phsyical Mew if you see it running Brick Break and Shadow Claw. It will be Choice Band Mew (This Mew will not be Life Orbed).

So Mew can actually be somewhat simple to figure out. And when you look at it more closely you can see that pokemon such as:

Jirachi
Tyranitar
Dragonite
Infernape
ect.

They are all just as versatile as Mew. Some maybe even moreso. Now look at Mew even closer and you can see some interesting things. He can be outclassed by other Pokemon.

Mew has a semi-worthless ability, a horrible type, and is spread out on stats so it doesn't have that "defining stat". Crobat has a faster Hypnosis, as does Gengar, Persian, among others. Breloom can actually do the sleep set-up better with a more reliable spore and then Swords Dance. Now the one set-back to these Pokemon is they lack Baton Pass but actually they all have tricks Mew does not have.

Gengar has 3 Immunities as well as a lot of resistances. Gengar also learns Destiny Bond making it that lead we love. Gengar also has a higher speed reaching 350 as Mew only reaches 328.

Breloom has Poison Heal which allows it to actually love Posion damage. Spore has 100% accuracy and Breloom has a base 130 Attack score. Breloom also holds Mach Punch where Mew lacks Priority. He also carries leach seed.

Persian is an interesting creature. 355 Speed, Hypnosis and Nasty Plot, and he also has Technician making attacks like Swift and Water Pulse very powerful. He also has priority in the way of Fake Out.

These were just examples of other Pokemon who can do what Mew does to an extent. Is Mew that bad though?

Looking at Damage Calculations it does not seem like that.

Gengar can kill Mew with Shadow Ball easily.

Tyranitar OHKOs Mew with Crunch or a fleeing Mew with Pursuit.

Weavile is my favorite as it can easily Pursuit Mew as well as Night Slash it. It also outspeeds Mew. And it holds taunt which will shut Mew down completely

Pokemon with Taunt will stop the Baton Pass Mew. Pokemon with Sub or Imnosia (Honchkrow) can also easily beat Mew.

So why is Mew banned without testing? Why give other Pokemon such as Latios and Manaphy testing and even go as far to actually turn Wobbuffet and Deoxys Speed OU and Limbo! Why is Mew left behind these Pokemon?

Mew will still run the same sets, and just like how people said Deoxys S was too diverse, I can guarentee we would eventually adjust to Mew just like Deoxys.

I just want a nice discussion on Mew. Please don't come here and contribute anything stupid and unhelpful like "Mew is too good and should be banned" That pointless comment does not tell me anything at all.
 
The main problem I have with Mew is Baton Pass. It pretty much eliminates his Pursuit weakness and allows him to make something else on your team :wow:. However, I am not opposed to testing this thing at all, I actually think it wasn't really uber back in ADV and it might not be as broken now. Kindly don't give me the "learns all TMs" shit - half the TMs are pretty crappy and he doesn't get a bonus for learning all of them. He just has a huge movepool, good stats and mediocre typing at the end of the day. By no means a definite uber.
 
That is exactly my point. Mew really only has 20 moves it can use since mose of those tms suck and it has better things to do. I understand he is powerful but yeah just like you said he has sucky typing and is not a definite uber and needs testing.
 
Yeah. I agree with you. People underrate mew severely but i always question why Mew should be stay in Uber. Clearly it can't learn trick, endeavor, and most notably he can't learn very reliable sleeping move like Spore. Moreover,his trait like you are saying is very suck at Uber and if he allowed in OU it is still suck ability (Re-sleeping Darkrai will be only one thing his trait help) He should have either levitate or pressure or even intimidate (or Special Intimidate anyone???) as trait. Type and his stat aren't really going well together for him. It is just damaging him. It doesn't grant any defensive advantage and its STAB is very horrible in Uber. He doesn't have good typing as Jirachi did and not sturdy as Manaphy in the rain. Only his fearful ability would be Nasty Plot/ Sword Dance Baton Pass. Even if it get two attack stat boost and attack, it doesn't do too much of damage as people think of. His speed is just decent uber. He tie with Palkia, Manaphy and outspeeded by even garchomp. CB set is inferior than Palkia, Groudon, Dialga, Ho-oh, and even Kyogre. I don't think Manaphy should be OU again but i think Mew can be in OU as Deoxys-E. Consider he have not much greater offense than Deoxys-E and outspeeded by many uber. Jirachi is allowed in OU even if he have much better typing -Baton Pass+2 stat boost but he do have wish to support the team and Mew doesn't have it.
 
Hmm, I see Mew as kind of skating the line between Uber and OU. He's not really a true Uber, but he would make a very good OU I believe. Even with many TM/HM's being not that great, Mew is still fairly unpredictable. He can run a mixed set, baton pass (with 2 attacks), etc. It's pretty easy to mispredict / guess Mew's set wrong and then it will either cripple one of your pokemon or stat up and baton pass. It's kind of like Gengar, except he has just a bit less speed and better HP / defense with the option to Baton Pass away. His weakness to pursuit hurts him alot, though. Testing Mew in OU would be interesting.
 
mew has sycronrize though, making status a stupidity, and it has the move pool to be a smeargle with enough beef to stay alive
 
slayer124 said:
Yeah. I agree with you. People underrate mew severely but i always question why Mew should be stay in Uber. Clearly it can't learn trick, endeavor, and most notably he can't learn very reliable sleeping move like Spore. Moreover,his trait like you are saying is very suck at Uber and if he allowed in OU it is still suck ability (Re-sleeping Darkrai will be only one thing his trait help) He should have either levitate or pressure or even intimidate (or Special Intimidate anyone???) as trait. Type and his stat aren't really going well together for him. It is just damaging him. It doesn't grant any defensive advantage and its STAB is very horrible in Uber. He doesn't have good typing as Jirachi did and not sturdy as Manaphy in the rain. Only his fearful ability would be Nasty Plot/ Sword Dance Baton Pass. Even if it get two attack stat boost and attack, it doesn't do too much of damage as people think of. His speed is just decent uber. He tie with Palkia, Manaphy and outspeeded by even garchomp. CB set is inferior than Palkia, Groudon, Dialga, Ho-oh, and even Kyogre. I don't think Manaphy should be OU again but i think Mew can be in OU as Deoxys-E. Consider he have not much greater offense than Deoxys-E and outspeeded by many uber. Jirachi is allowed in OU even if he have much better typing -Baton Pass+2 stat boost but he do have wish to support the team and Mew doesn't have it. However, i think ho-oh doesn't supposed to be test in OU. I think he is definitely uber since he is seriously overpower in OU even if it had downside type. (90 speed isn't bad stat in OU, 154 Special Defense can wall many of special sweeper in OU, 130 Attack is extremely power attack stat for OU, and his 110 sp attack stat is good in OU. Moreover, its movepool is somewhat too much for OU since he can be Pwnage mixed sweeper in OU if he has rapid spinner)
Click to expand...
 
baton passing any stat X2 seems a little broken to me, especially with those good defenses and speed.
 
What's Mew got over Gengar? I'd say superior defenses but weaker resistances go along with the pure-psychic typing. I think that if you were to ignore Baton Pass and compare Mew to other Pokemon, you'd find that there are generally better alternatives. Movepool-wise, Azelf has nothing on Mew, but its higher speed, special attack and attack means that it would be more proficent at its job.

In the end, I think what the biggest thing against Mew is going to be is Status Move + Baton Pass. I can't think of another Baton Passer with that speed and those defenses that can use Hypnosis. So Mew, unless it can be outsped and at least 2HKO'd, will almost always get the pass off.
 
Well don't forget the tutor moves from Emerald/XD that Mew gets!

It gets

Fake Out
Thunderpunch
Ice Punch
Fire Punch
Counter

Anyway about Mew!

I sort of want to make a Wallbreaking Mew set now, Nasty Plot Aura Sphere/Shadow Ball/Taunt sounds pretty deadly, after you take down Weavile not much is really stopping it. It can work like Togekiss, except faster, and with Taunt, meaning it's not getting stopped by status, and things like Blissey isn't going to recover in it's face. This is just a 252 SpA/252 Speed Timid Mew, after a Nasty Plot.

Nasty Plot Life Orb Aura Sphere vs Calm 176 SpDef Blissey - 260-308 damage. Meaning it can 2HKO with SR down, and wins anyway since Blissey can't softboiled or status Mew.

Nasty Plot Life Orb Shadow Ball vs 148 SpDef Cresselia - 302 - 356 Damage, meaning it's really close to a OHKO, and Cress isn't doing anything back after being taunted

Nasty Plot Life Orb Aura Sphere vs 252 SpDef TTar in Sandstorm - 408 damage minimum. OHKO easily.

These are things that SpecsCario nor Nasty Plot Togekiss can brag about, Togekiss needs two Nasty Plots to even fathom taking on Blissey and it can still be status'd which means Togekiss is doomed, and SpecsCario doesn't have the freedom of choosing it's moves and is slower than Mew, and it lacks Taunt meaning it's not beating the new SpDef oriented Blissey Spreads. Meanwhile This set just allows you to get easy KOs if the opposing Pokemon has taken even a little residual damage, meaning it's going to be pretty damn awesome at cleaning things up.

Taunt is just.... too powerful as far as I see it. I can even run less EVs on SpA and give Mew Guaranteed Survival against a lot of other crap, since Taunt will shut down walls anyway.

As far as i can tell Spiritomb is the only thing that can take on this Mew set without having to resort to revenge killing.

Nothing resists Aura Sphere/Shadow Ball either, and with a combination of taunt it just means it's going to force switches(and hurt the switch in) or kill walls. It's going to be pretty hard to status it with Taunt around, and when it does, you're also screwing yourself over.

Of course this is just one of the million things Mew can do. I'd love to use it in tantrum with Scizor, who counters Gengar and Weavile easily.

Just a dumb idea :P Maybe if we want a more offensive metagame, we can try bringing mew in!

I also realized that the introduction of Mew in OU means Mesprit is "useless". Poor mesprit D:
 
Basically, your argument boils down to Mew having four-moveslot syndrome.

If you're going to tell me Dragonite, Tyranitar, and Jirachi are all "just as versitale" as Mew, then I'll tell you... uh... something not true. Sure, in terms of sheer number of moves they're close, but they don't have that many good moves. Can Jirachi Nasty Plot, Baton Pass, Roost, Hypnosis, Swords Dance, or Rock Polish?

Breloom and Mew do ENTIRELY DIFFERENT THINGS. Breloom dies in one hit. Mew doesn't.

The fact that you can figure out what Mew is doing doesn't make him a not-versitable, counterable Pokémon.

Persian has shit Special Attack and defenses.

Mew is left behind because it's common sense that something that can do everything well, like Arceus (!), is broken.

Your argument basically says "there are Pokémon that can do stuff like Mew better in some ways and worse in others plus Mew is a Psychic type and Taunt stops it so that means its not broken". I still don't think that Mew needs a test.

Listen to Tangerine.

Also, Latios has never been tested ever. He also doesn't need to be, but you can make (slightly) more of an argument for him than Mew.
 
Gotta say Mew is a great BPer, but if you want to BP any stat boost something else can do it better. NP? Togekiss. Agility? so many options, including Gliscor and Scizor. SD? Leafeon, Gliscor.

Really Mew can do many things, but its a "Jack of all trades, King of none" Azef is a better sweeper, you can find a better BPer for whatever stat you want, and many other Pokemon can support better.

I say its worth a test, but lets finish the other tests first.
 
eric the espeon said:
Gotta say Mew is a great BPer, but if you want to BP any stat boost something else can do it better. NP? Togekiss. Agility? so many options, including Gliscor and Scizor. SD? Leafeon, Gliscor.

Really Mew can do many things, but its a "Jack of all trades, King of none" Azef is a better sweeper, you can find a better BPer for whatever stat you want, and many other Pokemon can support better.

I say its worth a test, but lets finish the other tests first.
Click to expand...

It actually kind of is the "king" of baton passing since none of the pokemon you listed have as good overall defenses or hypnosis to get the pass off.
 
Chris is me said:
Also, Latios has never been tested ever. He also doesn't need to be, but you can make (slightly) more of an argument for him than Mew.
Click to expand...

You mean the Latis are not being tested in the "Manaphy/Deoxys-S/Wobbuffet/Lati" tournament?

@Tangerine:

How does Mew only need to Nasty Plot once to beat Blissey, but Togekiss need to Nasty Plot twice to take her on when Togekiss has 120 base special attack and Mew has base 100? It's not like Blissey can really switch in after a Nasty Plot, especially when it can get flinchhaxed.
 
Bologo: Taunt. Togekiss needs to be able to outdamage Softboiled + Leftovers, while running the risk of being Toxic'd or Thunderwaved. The only way I really found to take down Blissey with Togekiss was Air Slash it first after 2 NPs and then hope for a flinch, and then finish with Aura Sphere.
 
Whoa, there's a Smogon tourney? I thought Shoddy was just doing Ladder testing or something.

Anyway, how's that going? Who's collecting data on usages? other detials that I can look up go here.
 
Discounting things because they're "bad" is usually the first sign that you have a weak argument.
Having access to all TMs, even if every TM isn't useful, still gives Mew a MASSIVE movepool. This also includes gems like the XD/Emerald/FRLG move tutors (does Mew get Draco Meteor or any of the Starter Hyper Beams? Not that it needs it, just to really give scope to what kinds of things you can do with its movepool) as well as any and all move tutor moves that become available with the coming of the third DS-Gen Pokemon game, assuming expanded Battle Tower means more Emerald-like play.


Mew has access to double status every status ailment in the game. You can make a Mew mono-status inflicting. You can easily make a physical Mew to fake out opponents. As stated, an attacking Mew with Taunt shuts down almost half of every OU wall's set list, as well as any support Pokemon or support move using Tank/Sweeper's side job. Mew has 100 points in every stat, allowing it to serve as either a tank, supporter, attacker, or attempt to wall (though it really doesn't have the defenses to wall most things in OU, especially with mono-psychic typing). It has access to two Recover-y moves as well as Rest-Talk for no good reason. Baton Pass allows you to move any stat raise onto another Pokemon from a bulky set up artist who can Sub and Taunt anyone who tries to stop the setup.

Mew's solo move pool gives it access to Fighting/Ghost without resorting to Hidden Power, meaning that unless you want a Ground attack on a mono-special Mew (I mean, you could just as easily just drop Eq on it), you have No Weak type coverage. The same can be said for giving it Dragon/Fire moves, but you get less type coverage with Dragon and become Blissey-weak without Aura Sphere.

This isn't to say it's beyond testing, but to discount Mew's almost unlimited unpredictability and selling it short by miles with saying it has "only 20 usable moves" would make a Pokemon like Arceus somewhere in the realm of testable for OU play (it is not, especially seeing as Multitype adds another completely different dimension to making a Pokemon unpredictable, but to ignore unpredictability as an asset is foolhardy when inviting a Pokemon to be tested for OU play, especially when that Pokemon can do any of those roles well).
 
Doesn't Roar or some kind of phazing in general hurt baton passes? Doesn't taunt? It's considered good strategy to carry those moves already isn't it?

Player 1 switched in Metagross
Player 2 switched in Mew
Mew used Hypnosis
Metagross fell asleep
Player 1 switched in Swampert
Mew used Nasty Plot/Agility/etc
Mew used Baton Pass
Player 2 switched in Infernape/DeathNinjas/etc
Swampert used Roar

or

Player 1 switched in Metagross
Player 2 switched in Mew
Mew used Hypnosis
Metagross fell asleep
Player 1 switched in Breloom
Mew used Nasty Plot/Agility/etc
Mew used Baton Pass
Player 2 switched in Infernape/DeathNinjas/etc
Breloom used Spore
Infernape fell asleep
Breloom used Substitute & wrecks Player 2's team

There are a lot of ways this could play out that doesn't make Mew an autowin.

Don't talk about "overcentralizing" either. There are enough stat-ups in the current OU metagame already that players either have to carry something to defend against them (taunt, roar, whirlwind, etc) or have resistances & priority moves anyways. The only centralizing factor that might become apparent is Mew overshadowing passers of other stat ups like Ninjask. Of course adding him will have an effect on the metagame. It will change the way teams are constructed and what threats people need to look out for. That's going to happen anytime an Uber is tested and isn't necessarily centralizing. Just about any change with regards to Ubers will make that happen.

I find it humorous that some of the people that are adamant we should test evasion moves are against testing something like Mew in OU. Personally, I was content with the existing Ubers list before we started mucking around with Wob and talking about unbanning things for tests. But if we're really going to do tests and put the community through a series of changes over and over again, Mew seems like a logical choice for testing.
 
Odinwolf: that's pure theorymon, a terrible one at that. I doubt Breloom or Swampert would really switch in on Mew since it carries that risk of eating a STAB Nasty Plot Psychic in the face. Also consider Taunt, which shuts down Phazing, meaning Swampert will need to switch out and switch back in to phaze, and that also means Breloom isn't sporing, leech seeding, etc, since Mew is pretty fast.

So yeah don't really think about "phazing" Mew's passes with it's access to Taunt really =/
 
'Course,

Player 1 switched in Metagross
Player 2 switched in Mew
Mew used Hypnosis
Metagross fell asleep
Player 1 switched in Swampert
Mew used Nasty Plot/Agility/etc
Mew used Taunt
Swampert can't use Roar due to the Taunt!

or

Player 1 switched in Metagross
Player 2 switched in Mew
Mew used Hypnosis
Metagross fell asleep
Player 1 switched in Breloom
Mew used Nasty Plot/Agility/etc
Mew used Taunt
Breloom used Spore
Breloom can't use Spore due to the Taunt!


I'm all for Mew testing though. It's much more deserving of testing then the Latis or even evasion imo.

EDIT: Beaten to it x(
 
Taunt is also dangerous on the BPer, not just a wall set. It could do something like Floatzel (just... with defenses that don't fall to a gust of wind), with Taunt/Stat Up/Baton Pass/filler. So with OdinWolf's example, Mew would Taunt that Breloom/whatever.

Edit: Having used Floatzel a little bit, I can say that it's hard to prevent it from passing, it's only real problem is that it's defensive (and possibly offensive) stats are too low. I think Mew would be pretty hard to beat in OU with that set.

But above all that, I think that we should worry about Manaphy before we get into Mew. It seems like since Deoxys-S was unbanned, every uber and their dog is banging on OU's door. I just wish it would slow down just a bit.

Edit: And although theorymoning has been proved invalid in the past, didn't people always know it was just a bit cracked? Just because we were wrong about Deoxys-S (well, err, let's not get into that, people who disagree) doesn't mean that we can suddenly be testing Arceus.
 
Im all about testing new pokemon to make things more exciting and I would really like for Mew to be tested. I dont care about all this theories about it being broken because most of them have gone untested and people just go jump to conclusions on how "broken" someting is. I never saw Mew as uber Material seeing that Mewtwo overshadows it on everything excet bping. I think, its time for this little pink kitty's time to shine and see how it does in OU.
 
*shrug*

the point is, its all theorymon until its tested, right? If the community is moving towards the "test everything" approach, then Mew would be a good experiment to see if a massive movepool really makes something broken.
 
People made the same unpredictability argument against Deoxys-S. But as it turned out, a large movepool and unpredictability doesn't mean you can't counter something, especially with glaring weaknesses like psychic typing in a metagame full of Tyranitars and Weaviles.

Mew has a huge movepool, yes, but he is extremely outclassed as an attacker by things like Azelf and can't effectively wall with his typing and defenses, so most Mews are going to be the BP variety. Sure, he's good at BPing, but speed boost still allows Ninjask a niche for SD passing, and serene grace air slash annoyance and higher SA allows Togekiss to maintain his. Mew's advantage is he can't be phazed, but he's not coming in easily in a metagame full of powerhouses that can kill him before he gets a chance to BP (Garchomp, Gengar, Weavile, Tyranitar and many other top OU come to mind.)

If CS nullifying Deoxys-S and uncountertable Wobbuffet merit testing, Mew probably does too. Garchomp being OU means all low functioning ubers at least merit testing, the Latis in particular.
 
Raikou said:
People made the same unpredictability argument against Deoxys-S. But as it turned out, a large movepool and unpredictability doesn't mean you can't counter something, especially with glaring weaknesses like psychic typing in a metagame full of Tyranitars and Weaviles.

Mew has a huge movepool, yes, but he is extremely outclassed as an attacker by things like Azelf and can't effectively wall with his typing and defenses, so most Mews are going to be the BP variety. Sure, he's good at BPing, but speed boost still allows Ninjask a niche for SD passing, and serene grace air slash annoyance and higher SA allows Togekiss to maintain his. Mew's advantage is he can't be phazed, but he's not coming in easily in a metagame full of powerhouses that can kill him before he gets a chance to BP (Garchomp, Gengar, Weavile, Tyranitar and many other top OU come to mind.)

If CS nullifying Deoxys-S and uncountertable Wobbuffet merit testing, Mew probably does too. Garchomp being OU means all low functioning ubers at least merit testing, the Latis in particular.
Click to expand...

I don't think anyone said that Mew is "uncounterable". Arceus isn't "uncounterable". Mew's movepool is also larger than Deoxys-S', right? But I think it's main uses are BP & Taunt (especially together). It might ruin a lot of BPers (I'm not sure about Togekiss keeping it's place, even, it's not like you choose Serene Grace on a BPer over Taunt. It can do something Mew can't, but that won't mean it's used), since many of them are BL-ish. Pokemon like Leafeon, Floatzel, and Espeon won't have much of a place any more. He's also not weak to Pursuit (since he'll most likely be carrying Baton Pass), and can heal away some of those "big hits". It's not like you're switching him into CBTar anyway.

I'm not opposed to testing him, though; mainly because I think that the test will be stopped after a tournament, but also because it might be fun.

Edit: Again, because we were wrong about Deoxys-S doesn't mean that we're wrong about Mew. ;\
 
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