I hate to be a noob... but what are the qualifiations/characteristics for a good lead pokemon, both for competitive human matches and battle tower single teams of three. Examples are helpful...
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Lead Pokemon
- Thread starter RaikouLover
- Start date
Good leads should either be able to take hits and counter back with something, take hits and setup something, or have good speed and hit hard from either the physical end, special end, or both.
A good example of a mixed lead is infernape. It has 108 speed which allows it to move first often. With it's varied moveset, it can hit extremely hard. Close Combat is nothing to sneeze at. Grass Knot cripples big bulky pokemon. Stuff like uturn can allow you to switch out and deal damage. Mach punch allows you to go first and destroy something with weak defenses.
Another good example for a special lead is a jolteon with a hidden power, and maybe shadow ball (I lead with one on occasion). With 130 speed, it outspeeds most of the metagame. Hidden power ice and an item (like never melt ice or wise glasses) takes care of dragons, some grounds, and some grasses.
Swampert is a good pokemon that can take some hits and throw them back.
Weavile makes a good physical lead due to it's speed and attack.
A good example of a mixed lead is infernape. It has 108 speed which allows it to move first often. With it's varied moveset, it can hit extremely hard. Close Combat is nothing to sneeze at. Grass Knot cripples big bulky pokemon. Stuff like uturn can allow you to switch out and deal damage. Mach punch allows you to go first and destroy something with weak defenses.
Another good example for a special lead is a jolteon with a hidden power, and maybe shadow ball (I lead with one on occasion). With 130 speed, it outspeeds most of the metagame. Hidden power ice and an item (like never melt ice or wise glasses) takes care of dragons, some grounds, and some grasses.
Swampert is a good pokemon that can take some hits and throw them back.
Weavile makes a good physical lead due to it's speed and attack.
Infernape is a mediocre lead. Gets intimidated right off the bat from Salamence or Gyarados (Intimidaters are awesome leads), destroyed by most forms of Gengar (also a good lead due to its speed and statusing abilities). It can threaten some stuff...but doesn't really give you the tempo advantage most of the time that you'd want from your leads.
Jolteon is a widely chosen lead, but not for the reason you described...usually so it can just pass a substitute to something right from the start.
Weavile is a good lead not only because it's fast, but also because if your opponent fucks up and leads something weak to dark they've pretty much lost a pokemon immediately. High risk, high reward.
A good lead is something capable of setting your opponent back a turn. Intimidators are great for this. Weavile is good, but it can also set you back a turn if your opponent leads Gyarados. I'd suggest having an opening strategy that does not involve setting you back a turn if you're forced to switch, ie, you can abuse a fiersome lead to get a stealth rock setting pokemon in or something. Something like that is the most effective way to open a battle.
Basically, you want to be able to control the pace of the battle from the start.
Jolteon is a widely chosen lead, but not for the reason you described...usually so it can just pass a substitute to something right from the start.
Weavile is a good lead not only because it's fast, but also because if your opponent fucks up and leads something weak to dark they've pretty much lost a pokemon immediately. High risk, high reward.
A good lead is something capable of setting your opponent back a turn. Intimidators are great for this. Weavile is good, but it can also set you back a turn if your opponent leads Gyarados. I'd suggest having an opening strategy that does not involve setting you back a turn if you're forced to switch, ie, you can abuse a fiersome lead to get a stealth rock setting pokemon in or something. Something like that is the most effective way to open a battle.
Basically, you want to be able to control the pace of the battle from the start.
Surgo you said it better then me.
You are right about Infernape. It's speed it good, but not good enough since most of the really fast stuff is 110+.
One thing that I meant to put in (but for some reason didn't go in) was pokemon that can setup moves with high speed. You mentioned jolteon which I also did (but forgot to mention baton pass), but ninjask can also get that job done.
I like Gengar, and don't like Gengar as a lead, due to the ever common Weavile being a popular lead.
But overall, you said it best, set the pace of the battle from the beginning. I've been thinking about this, and have been working on a pokemon that will do this. Another good lead could also be something that can work around Choice Scarf/Focus Sash, since those seem to be some popular lead hold items.
You are right about Infernape. It's speed it good, but not good enough since most of the really fast stuff is 110+.
One thing that I meant to put in (but for some reason didn't go in) was pokemon that can setup moves with high speed. You mentioned jolteon which I also did (but forgot to mention baton pass), but ninjask can also get that job done.
I like Gengar, and don't like Gengar as a lead, due to the ever common Weavile being a popular lead.
But overall, you said it best, set the pace of the battle from the beginning. I've been thinking about this, and have been working on a pokemon that will do this. Another good lead could also be something that can work around Choice Scarf/Focus Sash, since those seem to be some popular lead hold items.
I also like stuff that can Fake Out, if only to scout for Leftovers/Choice Items. Eases prediction a lot.Then again, with stuff like Life Orb and all, that might be less viable in DP.
Another good lead is something that counters other common leads. I think it was Seph who leads with Weezing, simply because such a large proportion of people start with Weavile. Other similar anti-lead leads include Swampert/Bulky Water for Mence/Garchomp, Regice for the fast special, and something like Zapdos to counter Gyarados.
Gengar I think is a good lead with it's high speed and it's high move pool
If a Pokemon cannot do anything from that list, I'd rather not have it on my team at all. Personally I couldn't care less what my lead is when I got my team planned already. If I can't pick a Pokemon I'll just take one that doesn't get trapped and I'll be fine. I see it this way: if a lead can make an impact from the start, does that say more about your lead or about the team it is facing?
I like PorygonZ as a leader; since I loved leading with P2 back in r/s/e. Salamence and Gyarados are both very common starters, and both take 4x damage to one of your moves. If they're starting with one of those, you can Nasty Plot as they switch out and then hit whatever comes in next turn. Later on, when you come back in, you have Hyper Beam (on some Adaptability PZ), etc. For Download ones, if you switch into a Garchomp or Skarmory, you gain SpAtk.
Basically, it forces alot of switches, and nothing is really safe against it.
Basically, it forces alot of switches, and nothing is really safe against it.
I've been playing around with a Metagross lead as well, and I like Meteor Mash, Bullet Punch, Ice Punch, and Thunder Punch. As Glen brought up, Clear Body shuts down intimidators. Tpunch takes out Gyarados, and Ice Punch takes out Dragons. Bullet Punch shuts down Focus Sash, and Meteor Mash for a nice powerful attack. Focus Sash on my Gross as well allows me to survive the EQ, and counter back. Or, I can switch out of the EQ or Fire attack and switch to something that resists both moves, like Salamence or Dragonite. Metagross also shuts down Weavile.
i would never lead with starmie or gengar,weavile seems too common as a starter so you often go in basicaly one down to start.
Hehe. Right now the metagame is wide open, so it's really up to your own judgement of what's most common and how to beat it. I started with weezing awhile back as SirSpanky said because it beats the common weavile, gyarados, etc starts. If you look at the rmt's, about 1/3rd of em start with weavile and salamence, making mence an eh start, but even then, salamence has always been good to start with. If they predict the switch and pursuit, that's fine, an intimidated pursuit isn't as scary as you think. With wish support, salamence can be back to normal and start to kill with draco meteor or CB without much of a threat of being KO'd.
Bronzong is also a really good start. Sets up stealth rock, hypnosis's openers, and explodes when it's done.
I used to use breloom with focus strip which can be really annoying since you always get that sleep in, unless they put you to sleep first. It also beats weavile, tar and swampert.
For a sandstream team, starting with t-tar is one of the dumbest things to do. Just because you want to set up sandstream, doesn't mean it has to be the first thing to do. T-tar is a terrible start, you're a turn behind, just because you want your little SS in. That's nice, but it's better not to start out losing.
Swampert is a good start, jibaku goes between this and salamence normally. It beats weavile starts, sets up stealth rock, but unfortunately can only 1hko mence via avalanche with a lot of attack EV's, and mixpert is normally the way to go.
I have seen some skarmory starts, but they aren't that great. They lose to salamence starts, and in the event that you have the advantage, you're just asking to get magnezOWNED.
Gyarados starts are pretty good too. Like surgo and others have said, intimidate is really good to start out with, free turns, and even if you're at a disadvantage, you won't take much damage from a physical sweeper.
One last thing. Ever since the US release, I have noticed in increase in the amount of Choice Scarf starts. Please people, if you're going to start with a choice scarfer, don't make it obvious, I've seen 5 scarf heracross starts and they are so easy to predict and can't do too much to cresselia as you would like it to. Scarf starts do beat fragile ones like weavile and can get fast sleeps like scarfgar.
Bronzong is also a really good start. Sets up stealth rock, hypnosis's openers, and explodes when it's done.
I used to use breloom with focus strip which can be really annoying since you always get that sleep in, unless they put you to sleep first. It also beats weavile, tar and swampert.
For a sandstream team, starting with t-tar is one of the dumbest things to do. Just because you want to set up sandstream, doesn't mean it has to be the first thing to do. T-tar is a terrible start, you're a turn behind, just because you want your little SS in. That's nice, but it's better not to start out losing.
Swampert is a good start, jibaku goes between this and salamence normally. It beats weavile starts, sets up stealth rock, but unfortunately can only 1hko mence via avalanche with a lot of attack EV's, and mixpert is normally the way to go.
I have seen some skarmory starts, but they aren't that great. They lose to salamence starts, and in the event that you have the advantage, you're just asking to get magnezOWNED.
Gyarados starts are pretty good too. Like surgo and others have said, intimidate is really good to start out with, free turns, and even if you're at a disadvantage, you won't take much damage from a physical sweeper.
One last thing. Ever since the US release, I have noticed in increase in the amount of Choice Scarf starts. Please people, if you're going to start with a choice scarfer, don't make it obvious, I've seen 5 scarf heracross starts and they are so easy to predict and can't do too much to cresselia as you would like it to. Scarf starts do beat fragile ones like weavile and can get fast sleeps like scarfgar.
I start with Gyra to try and lure out a Electric Type attack, and switch in Electavire.
So a lead has to be something that works well with your team.
So a lead has to be something that works well with your team.
Umm......
So your plan is......
Step 1) get hit by an attack and survive via focus sash
Step 2) DD
Step 3) ?????
Step 4) WIN!!!!
I'm not seeing it, honestly.
Why would you want to dd at the beginning of the fight, and be at near death at that, instead of just waiting till everything is weakened, and you can easily get in for the sweep?
I tend to go with Gyarados too, but I can either DD straight away, of it they are electric, switch to Gliscor and get some stealth rock up.