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LC Viability Rankings (Archive)
- Thread starter ryan
- Start date
- Status
Drifloon for D rank - once it losg Flying Gen its kinda useless gg
Fennekin for D rank - its only niche is magician, but other than that its outclassed by vilpix, growlithe, ponyta, larvesta, or houndour
Zizagoon for C rank - its ok, espeed belly drum is better with berry juice now, allowing it take weak attacks now
Numel for B rank - excellent sub sweeper with access to flame charge and growth, however not quite A material bc walled by slowpoke, plus redudant types with vulpix
Amaura for B rank plz, its too cute, and is actually an effective at revenging a lot. Not much wants to take a nature power, and when it gets snpw warning itll be an excellent sun check. However weak to priority so requires decent support, so no S tier unfortunately
Zubat for C rank, 4x resist to fight, poison typing is decent, and fast defog
Pancham for C rank - parting shot is too niche imo
Surskit and Tirtouga for A rank, tirt is excellent berry smasher and cleaner, surskit literally defines sticky wev hyper offense
Misdreavus for B rank - ok i understand it is good, but it rarely can switch in on anything because of knock off. So its only spot as spinblocker and hjk absorber got nerfed greatly, yet its still an excellent mon.
Fennekin for D rank - its only niche is magician, but other than that its outclassed by vilpix, growlithe, ponyta, larvesta, or houndour
Zizagoon for C rank - its ok, espeed belly drum is better with berry juice now, allowing it take weak attacks now
Numel for B rank - excellent sub sweeper with access to flame charge and growth, however not quite A material bc walled by slowpoke, plus redudant types with vulpix
Amaura for B rank plz, its too cute, and is actually an effective at revenging a lot. Not much wants to take a nature power, and when it gets snpw warning itll be an excellent sun check. However weak to priority so requires decent support, so no S tier unfortunately
Zubat for C rank, 4x resist to fight, poison typing is decent, and fast defog
Pancham for C rank - parting shot is too niche imo
Surskit and Tirtouga for A rank, tirt is excellent berry smasher and cleaner, surskit literally defines sticky wev hyper offense
Misdreavus for B rank - ok i understand it is good, but it rarely can switch in on anything because of knock off. So its only spot as spinblocker and hjk absorber got nerfed greatly, yet its still an excellent mon.
+6 196+ Atk Zigzagoon Extreme Speed vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Tangela: 16-21 (66.6 - 87.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+6 196+ Atk Zigzagoon Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Gligar: 18-22 (78.2 - 95.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Zigs, imo, should be atleast B or high C, being able to KO a ton of Pokemon, while needing a tad bit of team support for some other, bulkier walls like in above. It doesn't afraid of mach punch since extremespeed is +3.
+6 196+ Atk Zigzagoon Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Gligar: 18-22 (78.2 - 95.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Zigs, imo, should be atleast B or high C, being able to KO a ton of Pokemon, while needing a tad bit of team support for some other, bulkier walls like in above. It doesn't afraid of mach punch since extremespeed is +3.
I think that once Flying Gem is released, we should put Drifloon at B or C rank. It's formidable with access to its favorite item.
I mostly agree with everyone else's opinions, especially regarding Zubat. Zubat's a great Pokemon this gen, garnering easy switch-ins aplenty with three double resistances, a new resistance in the form of Fairy, and the ability to screw with any SubSeed Pokemon (Cottonee and Phantump) thanks to a buffed Infiltrator. It's fantastic to use Zubat again.
I mostly agree with everyone else's opinions, especially regarding Zubat. Zubat's a great Pokemon this gen, garnering easy switch-ins aplenty with three double resistances, a new resistance in the form of Fairy, and the ability to screw with any SubSeed Pokemon (Cottonee and Phantump) thanks to a buffed Infiltrator. It's fantastic to use Zubat again.
I don't really agree with these (rest of your post I either agree with / am indifferent to).
First off, Numel needs two turns of setting up for it to be a monster, and that's a little too much to ask. With just Flame Charge, Numel isn't more impressive than any other Fire-type in the sun. With just Growth, Numel is extremely strong, but it's also extremely easy to outspeed. C sounds a lot more appropriate for Numel.
As for Surskit, yea it defines Sticky Web (although the other alternatives are decent too), but the problem is Sticky Web isn't a very good playstyle atm. 4 out of 5 of the S rank Pokemon (Gligar / Murkrow / Pawniard / Yanma) don't care at all about Sticky Web, and in Pawniard's case, gets even stronger under Sticky Web. Chlorophyll Tangela and Unburden Swirlix still outspeed a lot of the Pokemon even after Sticky Web, especially considering the fact that Sticky Web teams like to be a little greedy when it comes to Speed by using slower but stronger Pokemon. Surskit is fine as is.
When it comes to Misdreavus, I think Misdreavus is one of the most deserving A rank Pokemon. Very few Pokemon won't mind taking a Knock Off, so that reasoning is a bit odd. You also contradict yourself by acknowledging the fact that it is an excellent Pokemon. Anyways, it deserves A rank because it's really fast, cripples a lot of Pokemon with either WoW or Taunt, bulky in comparison to most LC Pokemon, and is a great setup sweeper with Nasty Plot. Misdreavus can be pretty difficult to handle, although it does have its moments where it does a bit less damage when you hope it would. Still, it deserves A rank no doubt. It's just slightly less good than it was in BW.
IMO, when looking at how well a pokemon does, you need to see how well a Pokemon's positives weigh with the negatives.
Take Murkrow for example:
It can practically 2HKO the entire metagame with its fantastic coverage. Good.
Its weak to SR and incredibly frail. Bad.
Now, is the ability to atleast 2KHO nearly every pokemon a good trade-off for being weak to SR? Yes.
On the flipside, take Ralts for example:
Well... a quad resist to fighting is nice, and it can set up trick room and dual screens. Good.
However, it has poor speed... poor defenses... poor offenses.... no recovery.... Bad.
Every pokemon has its counters, thats a given. But if a Pokemon requires multiple team spots dedicated to removing it's counters, then, its just not worth it.
Take Murkrow for example:
It can practically 2HKO the entire metagame with its fantastic coverage. Good.
Its weak to SR and incredibly frail. Bad.
Now, is the ability to atleast 2KHO nearly every pokemon a good trade-off for being weak to SR? Yes.
On the flipside, take Ralts for example:
Well... a quad resist to fighting is nice, and it can set up trick room and dual screens. Good.
However, it has poor speed... poor defenses... poor offenses.... no recovery.... Bad.
Every pokemon has its counters, thats a given. But if a Pokemon requires multiple team spots dedicated to removing it's counters, then, its just not worth it.
Hi, so I actually disagree with the placement of a few pokemon.
I believe Chinchou should be moved up to A, Chinchou is just such a good pokemon in the meta right now (possibly the best scarfer), cause it has like 4 viable sets and they are all really good. Chinchou gives none of the S rank pokemon free switch-ins and can beat all of them 1v1 some of the time depending on the set they (and it) are running. Chinchou also poops on Magnemite, which is really frustrating when I am trying to abuse muh sturdy juice. Chinchou is just a really good pokemon in LC because it can fulfill so many rolls, while also having neutral or positive match-ups against many top threats in the meta. STAB scald and an amazing typing are also things that Chinchou can take advantage of, I just think B rank kind of underrates chou.
I also think that Timburr should be moved up to A, Timburr has actually really benefited from the shifts this generation, as the increase in berry juice users allows Timburr to power through things that it would usually need a bulk up to get past. Timburr also enjoys the new knock off mechanics, as it allows Timburr to take on Misdreavus, a pokemon that used to give Timburr a lot of trouble. Guts is a really good ability that allows Timburr to make for an amazing teammate to Meditite and Gligar, two of the top threats right now, as it gets a free switch into Will-o-wisp from Missy or scald from Chinchou / Slowpoke, while also knocking off their items and weakening them (or killing them in Chou's case). It also has Ice Punch to donk the ever so obvious Gligar and Yanma switch-ins (I'm p sure it wins vs gligar 1v1). Also Pawniard and Carvanha can eat a dick, mach punch is just so freaking useful in the LC meta atm.
Okay, please don't kill me but, Bunnelby down to B, Bunnelby is a pretty cool pokemon in LC, but I think you vastly overestimate how well it performs in game situations. The only S rank pokemon that Bunnelby has a pretty good chance with 1v1 is Yanma, and I don't even know how positive of a match up that is. Pawniard, Gligar, and Tangela really just don't care about anything Bunnelby does, and a ton of other things like Archen and Misdreavus that can sit there and wall the bunny all day. Bunnelby is also incredibly frail, and struggles to survive any priority, which is just way to common in LC to be ignored.
/me hides from treecko
oO
>.<
I believe Chinchou should be moved up to A, Chinchou is just such a good pokemon in the meta right now (possibly the best scarfer), cause it has like 4 viable sets and they are all really good. Chinchou gives none of the S rank pokemon free switch-ins and can beat all of them 1v1 some of the time depending on the set they (and it) are running. Chinchou also poops on Magnemite, which is really frustrating when I am trying to abuse muh sturdy juice. Chinchou is just a really good pokemon in LC because it can fulfill so many rolls, while also having neutral or positive match-ups against many top threats in the meta. STAB scald and an amazing typing are also things that Chinchou can take advantage of, I just think B rank kind of underrates chou.
I also think that Timburr should be moved up to A, Timburr has actually really benefited from the shifts this generation, as the increase in berry juice users allows Timburr to power through things that it would usually need a bulk up to get past. Timburr also enjoys the new knock off mechanics, as it allows Timburr to take on Misdreavus, a pokemon that used to give Timburr a lot of trouble. Guts is a really good ability that allows Timburr to make for an amazing teammate to Meditite and Gligar, two of the top threats right now, as it gets a free switch into Will-o-wisp from Missy or scald from Chinchou / Slowpoke, while also knocking off their items and weakening them (or killing them in Chou's case). It also has Ice Punch to donk the ever so obvious Gligar and Yanma switch-ins (I'm p sure it wins vs gligar 1v1). Also Pawniard and Carvanha can eat a dick, mach punch is just so freaking useful in the LC meta atm.
Okay, please don't kill me but, Bunnelby down to B, Bunnelby is a pretty cool pokemon in LC, but I think you vastly overestimate how well it performs in game situations. The only S rank pokemon that Bunnelby has a pretty good chance with 1v1 is Yanma, and I don't even know how positive of a match up that is. Pawniard, Gligar, and Tangela really just don't care about anything Bunnelby does, and a ton of other things like Archen and Misdreavus that can sit there and wall the bunny all day. Bunnelby is also incredibly frail, and struggles to survive any priority, which is just way to common in LC to be ignored.
/me hides from treecko
oO
>.<
Well geez, I was busy just about to write up a bunch of stuff and atomicllamas goes and says just about everything I was about to say. Timburr to A is the one I'm most adamant about, as it is probably the best bulky fighting type the tier has access too. Its a predictable little bugger but it does its job so damn well. But ya, I agree with atomicllama on pretty much every point
The only other one I was thinking of was Foongus up to B. Lets face it, foongus is just worse than tangela, so the reason why it will never see play is because tangela exists. But if thats taken out of the picture, foongus is still a very strong LC pokemon. Its a great check to a lot of the fighting types out there not named meditite, and is possibly one of the best answers to CM spritzee. With regenerator & giga drain for a solid form of recovery, and the single best sleep move in the game, its a very very solid pokemon, that doesn't require a whole lot of team support to function.
I think Foongus will be a solid B-rank Pokemon if Tangela is banned, but until then, it's just too outshined by it to propel it up to B-rank. You admitted this yourself, and then said "if that's taken out of the picture." But you can't take that out of the picture. If you take Misdreavus out of the picture, Gastly and Frillish would both get a lot better automatically, Gastly on the offensive side (and with the same immunities) and Frillish defensively, but Misdreavus exists and outshines both of them in most cases. In that same way, Foongus is just too often outshined by Tangela. The only niches over Tangela you pointed out in your post were Spore (Tangela has Sleep Powder, so this isn't even really a big factor) and serving as a solid answer to Swirlix. That one thing alone doesn't really make Foongus B-rank to me.
tbh I think you VASTLY
underestimate Bunnelby. Obviously I think it's amazing, and it's S-rank in my personal viability list. But even without all my biases, you're just flat out wrong in some of your points. First off, Gligar, Tangela, and Pawniard all care about Bunnelby a lot more than what you say.Scarf calcs:
228+ Atk Huge Power Bunnelby Return vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Tangela: 12-15 (50 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (can't safely switch in at all)
228+ Atk Huge Power Bunnelby Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Gligar: 13-16 (56.5 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (can't safely switch in at all)
228+ Atk Huge Power Bunnelby Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Berry Juice Gligar: 18-22 (78.2 - 95.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (it can safely switch in once)
228+ Atk Huge Power Bunnelby Return vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Pawniard: 8-10 (36.3 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
228+ Atk Huge Power Bunnelby Earthquake vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Pawniard: 22-26 (100 - 118.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
LO calcs:
228 Atk Life Orb Huge Power Bunnelby Return vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Tangela: 13-17 (54.1 - 70.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (can't switch in safely)
228 Atk Life Orb Huge Power Bunnelby Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Gligar: 16-19 (69.5 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
228 Atk Life Orb Huge Power Bunnelby Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Gligar: 8-9 (34.7 - 39.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (LO Return + Quick Attack means it dies even with two low rolls)
228 Atk Life Orb Huge Power Bunnelby Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gligar: 21-27 (91.3 - 117.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO (loling)
228 Atk Life Orb Huge Power Bunnelby Return vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Pawniard: 10-12 (45.4 - 54.5%) -- 75% chance to 2HKO
228 Atk Life Orb Huge Power Bunnelby Earthquake vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Pawniard: 26-31 (118.1 - 140.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
so uh, dunno why you seem to think they wall Bunnelby when they get wrecked by even the Scarf set. Archen and Misdreavus wall it, sure, but Archen also walls Yanma and Gligar despite their spots in S-rank, and bulky Fighting-types beat Pawniard despite its spot in S-rank. Misdreavus is also really easy to wear down throughout the match because it has no recovery barring crappy Pain Split.
You also seem to forget that Bunnelby has its own powerful priority. Quick Attack hits almost every offensive Pokemon really hard. It straight up OHKOs Carvanha (which is also in A-rank and is way more vulnerable to priority than Bunnelby!!), 2HKOs Yanma, does more than half to Swirlix, does 47-63% to Eviolite Meditite (which runs Adamant so it's outsped) and 63-84% to Life Orb, does 50% or more to every sun sweeper barring Tangela (which it does 37-50% to), does well over half to Scarf Snover while Snover does 35-45% back with Ice Shard, does 76-90% to Vulpix. I could go on, but I think you get the point here.
tbh Bunnelby is way scarier than Meditite and has U-turn to keep up momentum vs. stuff like Archen that walls it. I have no idea why you would think Bunnelby is anything less than A-rank.
Everything else so far I either agree with or feel neutrally about.
regarding what has been said in the thread
Bunnelby has the strongest no-risk priority in the game, which itself is a trait to make it A tier, imo. atomicllamas mentioned it can't do shit to Tangela, but it can hit it with a pretty strong U-Turn and gain momentum (switch in broken compoundeyes yanma for example!!)
I agree with atomicllamas on Timburr and Chinchou for the reasons he mentionened
Misdreavus should definitely stay in A Tier. A combination of Taunt/Shadow Ball/Thunderbolt/Nasty Plot/Willowisp can do a huge number to many teams if played well.
Tirtouga for A tier. Has priority, unlike Dwebble. It's weak to Mach PUnch, but not to Bullet Punch. It can use Ice Beam to nail Tangela (or Gligar before and after smashing)
my own proposals
Skrelp to B Skrelp's RestTalk set is an amazing counter to both Tangela and Yanma, while being able to spread status through either Poison Point or Touch, Scald, and Sludge Bomb. it's really insanely bulky on the special side
Amaura to B While it's defensive typing is probably the worst of all mons in LC, it's Scarf set has amazing coverage and can deal a number to any mon not named Munchlax, if prediction is correct
this one might seem a bit strange. Houndour to A tier. While I haven't used Houndour myself i've faced it numerous times, and each time it was a huge threat. With Life Orb, it doesn't have a whole lot of safe switch-ins.
Bunnelby has the strongest no-risk priority in the game, which itself is a trait to make it A tier, imo. atomicllamas mentioned it can't do shit to Tangela, but it can hit it with a pretty strong U-Turn and gain momentum (switch in broken compoundeyes yanma for example!!)
I agree with atomicllamas on Timburr and Chinchou for the reasons he mentionened
Misdreavus should definitely stay in A Tier. A combination of Taunt/Shadow Ball/Thunderbolt/Nasty Plot/Willowisp can do a huge number to many teams if played well.
Tirtouga for A tier. Has priority, unlike Dwebble. It's weak to Mach PUnch, but not to Bullet Punch. It can use Ice Beam to nail Tangela (or Gligar before and after smashing)
my own proposals
Skrelp to B Skrelp's RestTalk set is an amazing counter to both Tangela and Yanma, while being able to spread status through either Poison Point or Touch, Scald, and Sludge Bomb. it's really insanely bulky on the special side
Amaura to B While it's defensive typing is probably the worst of all mons in LC, it's Scarf set has amazing coverage and can deal a number to any mon not named Munchlax, if prediction is correct
this one might seem a bit strange. Houndour to A tier. While I haven't used Houndour myself i've faced it numerous times, and each time it was a huge threat. With Life Orb, it doesn't have a whole lot of safe switch-ins.
Archen --> A-tier
Archen is such a unique mon which has an incredible niche in this metagame, walling Gligar, Yanma, Bunnelby and Murkrow. That's an answer to 4 of the most threatening mons in just one team-slot. It's also a viable rocks/defog user and has access to U-turn which provides teams with momentum, making it one of the best pivots in this metagame.
Tirtouga --> A-tier
I agree with Chieliee, Sturdy smash as we all know is incredible and it can easily get round some of its counters with Ice Beam (Tang) or Earthquake (Croagunk) along with access to priority which stops Sucker Punch users. A very solid sweeper.
Why the hell is Corphish in B-tier? Like what does it do that it deserves to be in the same tier as Chinchou, Timburr, Scraggy and Porygon??? (srsly someone explain this to me)
Gothita --> B-tier
Shadow Tag is like the best ability in the game and Goth can prove really clutch in many matches removing certain threats or even crippling Bulky stuff with Trick. It's like a surefire way to guarantee a teammate a sweep. Only reason it isn't A is because its power is underwhelming sometimes.
Onix --> D-tier
Yeah, this guy has sturdyjuice, and is a pretty fast Stealth Rock setter, but other than that what can it do? Despite its gargantuan defense, it still doesn't really wall much since everything carries coverage and its HP and SpDef are dreadful. It can't hit hard with that 45 base Attack. Dragon Tail has been nerfed since the advent of fairies. So this guy just sits around whilst its Rocks are just Defogged. SturdyJuice is the only thing that prevents it from being E.
I have a few more which I'm unsure about so I'll think about them and write more on them later, I'll let you know what they are incase anyone has any opinions on them:
Mantyke --> B-tier?
Chinchou --> A-tier?
Porygon --> A-tier?
Croagunk --> A-tier?
Gastly --> C-tier?
Hippopotas --> C-tier?
Abra --> B-tier?
Growlithe --> B-tier?
Shellder --> B-tier?
Helioptile --> C-tier?
Archen is such a unique mon which has an incredible niche in this metagame, walling Gligar, Yanma, Bunnelby and Murkrow. That's an answer to 4 of the most threatening mons in just one team-slot. It's also a viable rocks/defog user and has access to U-turn which provides teams with momentum, making it one of the best pivots in this metagame.
Tirtouga --> A-tier
I agree with Chieliee, Sturdy smash as we all know is incredible and it can easily get round some of its counters with Ice Beam (Tang) or Earthquake (Croagunk) along with access to priority which stops Sucker Punch users. A very solid sweeper.
Why the hell is Corphish in B-tier? Like what does it do that it deserves to be in the same tier as Chinchou, Timburr, Scraggy and Porygon??? (srsly someone explain this to me)
Gothita --> B-tier
Shadow Tag is like the best ability in the game and Goth can prove really clutch in many matches removing certain threats or even crippling Bulky stuff with Trick. It's like a surefire way to guarantee a teammate a sweep. Only reason it isn't A is because its power is underwhelming sometimes.
Onix --> D-tier
Yeah, this guy has sturdyjuice, and is a pretty fast Stealth Rock setter, but other than that what can it do? Despite its gargantuan defense, it still doesn't really wall much since everything carries coverage and its HP and SpDef are dreadful. It can't hit hard with that 45 base Attack. Dragon Tail has been nerfed since the advent of fairies. So this guy just sits around whilst its Rocks are just Defogged. SturdyJuice is the only thing that prevents it from being E.
I have a few more which I'm unsure about so I'll think about them and write more on them later, I'll let you know what they are incase anyone has any opinions on them:
Mantyke --> B-tier?
Chinchou --> A-tier?
Porygon --> A-tier?
Croagunk --> A-tier?
Gastly --> C-tier?
Hippopotas --> C-tier?
Abra --> B-tier?
Growlithe --> B-tier?
Shellder --> B-tier?
Helioptile --> C-tier?
Ferroseed for A, please.
Steel is a great typing vs fairies like spritzee and lolsnubbull, and it fucks over BD swirlix (i dont think regular swirlix ohkoes with flamethrower either). Spikes are excellent with mons like Carvanha(which imo is S but yeah i definitely see why it is only A), yanma, gligar, etc utilizing them excellently. Leech seed+protect is annoying af and reliable recovery and means that it doesnt need to use berry juice. This thing is just so great in the meta right now.
Also wtf is clamperl doing in D, I mean, it at least deserves C lol (i really hope i dont need to elaborate on this).
Steel is a great typing vs fairies like spritzee and lolsnubbull, and it fucks over BD swirlix (i dont think regular swirlix ohkoes with flamethrower either). Spikes are excellent with mons like Carvanha(which imo is S but yeah i definitely see why it is only A), yanma, gligar, etc utilizing them excellently. Leech seed+protect is annoying af and reliable recovery and means that it doesnt need to use berry juice. This thing is just so great in the meta right now.
Also wtf is clamperl doing in D, I mean, it at least deserves C lol (i really hope i dont need to elaborate on this).
Meditite for S, please. Power, bulk, extremely good coverage, or you can go the LO route and destroy everything with HJK. or perhaps you prefer using a sub set to force switches, maybe a scarf set to revenge kill? Every single one of its offensive sets is great.
Yeah, you do have to elaborate on this actually. Clamperl relies on its item to be effective. 99% of teams have at least one Knock Off user, most will have even more. Once Clamperl has been Knocked Off it's basically a worse version of any of the other smashers. It's also frail as fuck, it can't set up anywhere near as easily as Tirtouga, Dwebble and even Shellder who can use Berry Juice, or Eviolite in the latter's case to help easy set up. Even once its set up, the other Pokemon still have advantages: Tirtouga and Shellder have priority to bypass other priority users. Dwebble has higher speed so it can't be revenged by scarfers. Shellder has Skill Link so it can get past Substitute or Sturdy mons. Clamperl is powerful but the others just have so much more advantages.
The thing is, that's not what you bring it on, is it? You bring it in on stuff that CANNOT ohko you and doesn't have knock off. Torchic is an example of such. Then you can either attack or shell smash and hit stuff etc. Clamperl isn't TOO slow, so it can outspeed stuff like scarf chinchou. Also you can bring it in with stuff like slow volt switch/u-turn/baton pass. Yes, it faces competition from shell smashers, but its sheer power and the fact that it is specially based more than grants it a niche.
Corkscrew
Corkscrew
While I do kinda disagree with some placements, I will agree that I can why there considered bad (Aipom, for instance, is generally outclassed by other Fake Out users, only having Technician over them; While all Binacle has over the other smashers is some neat moves like EQ and Cross Chop plus Tough Claws). Another thing, I'd suggest putting Noibat in the notable frogs, since it's stats are too low to do anything of worth (Boomburst is one of the only things going for it, and it's not STAB). Espurr is also kinda worthy of being in the notable frogs, as it's a Psychic type that has Fake Out and screens (There may be others but who knows), but that's it.
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For some odd reason it severely irks me to see Misdreavus in A tier
Anyway, Chinchou deserves to be in A tier, as many have noted. Aside from the Knock Off buff, Chinchou has benefitted quite a lot from the numerous mechanic changes and transitions into XY. It now more than ever solidly counters almost all Murkrow, who would much rather aim at Gligar with its infamous Mixed LO set than don HP Grass (which was also toned down to be much less threatening; it does the same amount of damage as STAB Sucker Punch now) to beat Chinchou. Magnemite is another new top tier threat for Chinchou to wall; and it is the most reliable Pokemon at doing this, definitely solidly earning it a spot in A tier. It does have a few new enemies in the S-tier rank, but it's still one of the best bulk Water-types in the tier and has the added benefit of not actually being weak to Knock Off like Slowpoke is.
Plus, Volt Switch is still awesome. Few top tier threats voluntarily switch into Chinchou, even though they can beat it 1 v 1, making it a very effective pivot Pokemon. As I said above, it flat out counters most Murkrow, and it can beat Yanma 1 v 1 with Sleep Talk. Gligar would never switch in because Hydro Pump cleanly KOs, and with Pawniard it's still risky because of Scald burns and Volt Switch pivoting. Being weak to Tangela is slightly downgrading but as a Bulky Water-type, that's something you can't really prevent.
I also disagree with the suggestion of Meditite to S-Tier. While its power and priority are useful, the prevalence of Flying-types in LittleCup simple make it very difficult for Meditite to secure a position as S-Tier. A-Tier is better suited for it because while it does have the power and coverage that helps it fall into A-Tier rank, its lower Speed / lack of strong STAB priority as well as its lack of bulk to counteract its common weaknesses to Knock Off and Flying-types keep it in A-tier. Meditite can sweep if given some support, but the key thing here is that it is definitely not an adequate standalone sweeper, even if it is better than a lot of the S-Tier mons when boosted.
PS I too feel that Archen should be A-Tier, simple because its unique typing helps out counter much of the S-Tier rank, similar to what Corkscrew said. Its bulky Eviolite Roost set solidly counters Gligar, Murkrow, and Yanma, and many other Flying-types, and its support options and ability to hit decently hard as well all make it an excellent glue Pokemon. With U-Turn and Acrobatics, it can keep Tangela on its toes, and with Earthquake, Pawniard can't switch in. Archen is a relatively less known threat but if used correctly, it can easily serve as a sold check / counter to a load of top tier Pokemon.
Anyway, Chinchou deserves to be in A tier, as many have noted. Aside from the Knock Off buff, Chinchou has benefitted quite a lot from the numerous mechanic changes and transitions into XY. It now more than ever solidly counters almost all Murkrow, who would much rather aim at Gligar with its infamous Mixed LO set than don HP Grass (which was also toned down to be much less threatening; it does the same amount of damage as STAB Sucker Punch now) to beat Chinchou. Magnemite is another new top tier threat for Chinchou to wall; and it is the most reliable Pokemon at doing this, definitely solidly earning it a spot in A tier. It does have a few new enemies in the S-tier rank, but it's still one of the best bulk Water-types in the tier and has the added benefit of not actually being weak to Knock Off like Slowpoke is.
Plus, Volt Switch is still awesome. Few top tier threats voluntarily switch into Chinchou, even though they can beat it 1 v 1, making it a very effective pivot Pokemon. As I said above, it flat out counters most Murkrow, and it can beat Yanma 1 v 1 with Sleep Talk. Gligar would never switch in because Hydro Pump cleanly KOs, and with Pawniard it's still risky because of Scald burns and Volt Switch pivoting. Being weak to Tangela is slightly downgrading but as a Bulky Water-type, that's something you can't really prevent.
I also disagree with the suggestion of Meditite to S-Tier. While its power and priority are useful, the prevalence of Flying-types in LittleCup simple make it very difficult for Meditite to secure a position as S-Tier. A-Tier is better suited for it because while it does have the power and coverage that helps it fall into A-Tier rank, its lower Speed / lack of strong STAB priority as well as its lack of bulk to counteract its common weaknesses to Knock Off and Flying-types keep it in A-tier. Meditite can sweep if given some support, but the key thing here is that it is definitely not an adequate standalone sweeper, even if it is better than a lot of the S-Tier mons when boosted.
PS I too feel that Archen should be A-Tier, simple because its unique typing helps out counter much of the S-Tier rank, similar to what Corkscrew said. Its bulky Eviolite Roost set solidly counters Gligar, Murkrow, and Yanma, and many other Flying-types, and its support options and ability to hit decently hard as well all make it an excellent glue Pokemon. With U-Turn and Acrobatics, it can keep Tangela on its toes, and with Earthquake, Pawniard can't switch in. Archen is a relatively less known threat but if used correctly, it can easily serve as a sold check / counter to a load of top tier Pokemon.
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agreeing with chinchou for A
yes meditite shouldn't be S
Porygon for A should probably be a thing, since it's really bulky and counters a shitton of stuff. Yeah, I know knock off yadayadayada but honestly, so many mons are hurt by it, so it's not really an argument against pory for A. It provides paralysis support, has reliable recovery, and hits decently hard.
Tirtouga for A, I mean, SturdySmash is strong. Dwebble is an awesome hazard setter and stuff, but tirt is bulkier and can set up SR. It is also a better shell smash sweeper, though being cockblocked by ferroseed and croagunk sucks.
yes meditite shouldn't be S
Porygon for A should probably be a thing, since it's really bulky and counters a shitton of stuff. Yeah, I know knock off yadayadayada but honestly, so many mons are hurt by it, so it's not really an argument against pory for A. It provides paralysis support, has reliable recovery, and hits decently hard.
Tirtouga for A, I mean, SturdySmash is strong. Dwebble is an awesome hazard setter and stuff, but tirt is bulkier and can set up SR. It is also a better shell smash sweeper, though being cockblocked by ferroseed and croagunk sucks.
replying to what I disagree with.
Corphish is B-tier for a similar reason Pokemon like Houndour are. It just hits so incredibly hard that there are almost 0 safe switch-ins to it. Between Crabhammer, Aqua Jet, and Knock Off, taking out a well played Corphish is very hard without saccing something. It outspeeds almost all defensive Pokemon, so getting an opportunity to fire off an attack isn't that hard, and its physical bulk isn't terrible. It is definitely on the lower end of B-tier Pokemon, but it is so much better than nearly every C-rank one, putting it there would be a crime!
Gothita for B isn't something that I'm completely opposed to, but in practice there are only a few threats it can effectively remove, and almost all of them can get around Gothita if they run the right set. Because it needs Choice Scarf to trap Gligar (which is like the best thing to trap with it), that just leaves Gothita as 100% Knock Off Bait. And whenever it gets a kill it is 100% bait for 2/5 of S-rank (Pawniard and Murkrow), and is kinda bait for Yanma as well. Again I see it on the fringe of B/C. I've used Gothita a lot, and it's definitely OK.
It also has a really fast Taunt, enough to stop sturdysmashers from setting up, and then you phaze them out with dtail. It also has a fast SR, and is super bulky. Onix is pretty helpful to have around right now :)/
I have a few more which I'm unsure about so I'll think about them and write more on them later, I'll let you know what they are incase anyone has any opinions on them:
Mantyke --> B-tier?
Chinchou --> A-tier?
Porygon --> A-tier?
Croagunk --> A-tier?
Gastly --> C-tier?
Hippopotas --> C-tier?
Abra --> B-tier?
Growlithe --> B-tier?
Shellder --> B-tier?
Helioptile --> C-tier?[/quote]
some of thes, like Growlithe, don't make much sense to me at all. Because Growlithe actually makes one of the biggest threats stronger. I'd also disagree with Mantyke, Hippo, Abra, and Helioptile. Mantyke is amazing right now, because of tis amazing bulk. Hippo makes sun teams not as threatening, and is still super bulky :). Abra does nothing. Helioptile does nothing.
Of course I can be convinced on all of these, but that's just my opinion as of right now.
I'll probably move Chinchou up later today :)
Corphish is B-tier for a similar reason Pokemon like Houndour are. It just hits so incredibly hard that there are almost 0 safe switch-ins to it. Between Crabhammer, Aqua Jet, and Knock Off, taking out a well played Corphish is very hard without saccing something. It outspeeds almost all defensive Pokemon, so getting an opportunity to fire off an attack isn't that hard, and its physical bulk isn't terrible. It is definitely on the lower end of B-tier Pokemon, but it is so much better than nearly every C-rank one, putting it there would be a crime!
Gothita for B isn't something that I'm completely opposed to, but in practice there are only a few threats it can effectively remove, and almost all of them can get around Gothita if they run the right set. Because it needs Choice Scarf to trap Gligar (which is like the best thing to trap with it), that just leaves Gothita as 100% Knock Off Bait. And whenever it gets a kill it is 100% bait for 2/5 of S-rank (Pawniard and Murkrow), and is kinda bait for Yanma as well. Again I see it on the fringe of B/C. I've used Gothita a lot, and it's definitely OK.
It also has a really fast Taunt, enough to stop sturdysmashers from setting up, and then you phaze them out with dtail. It also has a fast SR, and is super bulky. Onix is pretty helpful to have around right now :)/
I have a few more which I'm unsure about so I'll think about them and write more on them later, I'll let you know what they are incase anyone has any opinions on them:
Mantyke --> B-tier?
Chinchou --> A-tier?
Porygon --> A-tier?
Croagunk --> A-tier?
Gastly --> C-tier?
Hippopotas --> C-tier?
Abra --> B-tier?
Growlithe --> B-tier?
Shellder --> B-tier?
Helioptile --> C-tier?[/quote]
some of thes, like Growlithe, don't make much sense to me at all. Because Growlithe actually makes one of the biggest threats stronger. I'd also disagree with Mantyke, Hippo, Abra, and Helioptile. Mantyke is amazing right now, because of tis amazing bulk. Hippo makes sun teams not as threatening, and is still super bulky :). Abra does nothing. Helioptile does nothing.
Of course I can be convinced on all of these, but that's just my opinion as of right now.
I'll probably move Chinchou up later today :)
Ferroseed requires support? pls just because it's Fighting weak doesn't mean one of the best walls in the current metagame that reliably sets up SR can stay healthy and kill sturdy smashers should be in B-tier. Send this man to the frogs A-tier.
Growlithe should stay where he is, Ponyta pretty much outclasses him and intimidate is definitely not what you want on your fire type when Pawniard is pretty much everywhere.
I'd support Abra for B, its revenge-killing abilities shouldn't be underestimated. Abra has pretty great coverage and even though it's frail, it isn't as vulnerable to priority as some scarfers. It even beats Tangela 1on1 in sun, which is something that should be noted, even though Tangela isn't going to be around for much longer.
Croagunk and Chinchou for A are fine imo, both are different enough from other bulky fighting/water types and add something to the team that few other mons can. Croagunk will only get better if sun becomes less prevalent without Tangela and same goes for Chinchou.
I'd support Abra for B, its revenge-killing abilities shouldn't be underestimated. Abra has pretty great coverage and even though it's frail, it isn't as vulnerable to priority as some scarfers. It even beats Tangela 1on1 in sun, which is something that should be noted, even though Tangela isn't going to be around for much longer.
Croagunk and Chinchou for A are fine imo, both are different enough from other bulky fighting/water types and add something to the team that few other mons can. Croagunk will only get better if sun becomes less prevalent without Tangela and same goes for Chinchou.
Ok so most of this looks good. However, I have several issues with the current composed list. First of all, the most criminal one in my opinion, is Tirtouga in B rank. Shell Smash Tirtouga is the deadliest sweeper in LC right now. Nothing else, bar perhaps Belly Drum Swirlix, even comes close to this. Even accomplished players without a hard counter, like Croagunk or Ferroseed, will be severely damaged. Tirtouga is that good of a Pokemon, and is a better Shell Smasher than Dwebble. Why this is not A rank is beyond me, thus: Tirtouga to A rank.
Next, Mantyke pops out to me. Yes, Mantyke is an excellent Pokemon, especially in this metagame. However, it is not on the same level as the majority of the other A rank Pokemon. B rank is a much more realistic placement for its niche in the metagame, as it cannot fit the definition of an A rank Pokemon properly. Mantyke definitely should be B rank.
Croagunk needs to be A rank: this metagame is incredibly friendly to it, as it shuts down Shell Smashers with ease, does work against Tangela, and is overall probably the second best fighting type in the tier after Meditite. It needs to be A rank.
Gastly and Hippopotas both need to drop to C rank. Gastly practically has nothing over Misdreavus apart from a low accuracy Hypnosis, and the metagame at the moment is not friendly to the 18 speed tier, making it far too subpar. Hippopotas, despite its nice physical bulk, is also terrible in the current metagame. It just isn't as effective as for example Snover to support its team, and the omnipresence of stuff that can kill it, especially Tangela, means it doesn't deserve to be B rank.
Skrelp is probably one of the most underrated Pokemon out there, but it has some surprisingly good bulk, and its Rest Talk set torments some top threats in the metagame, notably Tangela, Misdreavus, Meditite without a Psychic STAB, and Swirlix without Thunderbolt. Definitely is worthy of B rank, especially in the current metagame.
Pancham is far too niche to be in B rank along some of the top Pokemon out there. Outclassed by four other Fighting types, it should be in C rank.
Porygon is still a very very good glue Pokemon, and does work atm enough to warrant A rank, as it deals well with Yanma, and can Para support its team. IMO worthy of A rank.
Torchic, one of my favorite Pokemon, has become overrated. If you analyze the definition of A rank, you see that Torchic does not fit it as well as it fits B rank's definition. This is due to the fact that Torchic is linear, and needs its team to be able to truly take advantage of its traits, and cannot be slapped onto any team like the majority of A rank. I like this a lot atm, but it is not an A rank.
Next, Mantyke pops out to me. Yes, Mantyke is an excellent Pokemon, especially in this metagame. However, it is not on the same level as the majority of the other A rank Pokemon. B rank is a much more realistic placement for its niche in the metagame, as it cannot fit the definition of an A rank Pokemon properly. Mantyke definitely should be B rank.
Croagunk needs to be A rank: this metagame is incredibly friendly to it, as it shuts down Shell Smashers with ease, does work against Tangela, and is overall probably the second best fighting type in the tier after Meditite. It needs to be A rank.
Gastly and Hippopotas both need to drop to C rank. Gastly practically has nothing over Misdreavus apart from a low accuracy Hypnosis, and the metagame at the moment is not friendly to the 18 speed tier, making it far too subpar. Hippopotas, despite its nice physical bulk, is also terrible in the current metagame. It just isn't as effective as for example Snover to support its team, and the omnipresence of stuff that can kill it, especially Tangela, means it doesn't deserve to be B rank.
Skrelp is probably one of the most underrated Pokemon out there, but it has some surprisingly good bulk, and its Rest Talk set torments some top threats in the metagame, notably Tangela, Misdreavus, Meditite without a Psychic STAB, and Swirlix without Thunderbolt. Definitely is worthy of B rank, especially in the current metagame.
Pancham is far too niche to be in B rank along some of the top Pokemon out there. Outclassed by four other Fighting types, it should be in C rank.
Porygon is still a very very good glue Pokemon, and does work atm enough to warrant A rank, as it deals well with Yanma, and can Para support its team. IMO worthy of A rank.
Torchic, one of my favorite Pokemon, has become overrated. If you analyze the definition of A rank, you see that Torchic does not fit it as well as it fits B rank's definition. This is due to the fact that Torchic is linear, and needs its team to be able to truly take advantage of its traits, and cannot be slapped onto any team like the majority of A rank. I like this a lot atm, but it is not an A rank.
I nominate Chikorita for C-Tier!
Yes, I know this is biased, but it still deserves tiering.
I mean, it deserves tiering, it is pretty bulky.
Yes, I know this is biased, but it still deserves tiering.
- Notable Flaws that prevent it from being effective.
I mean, it deserves tiering, it is pretty bulky.
This is so wrong, it has always been wrong since gen 5. In fact, in gen 6, Gastly is pretty close to being on equal footing with Misdreavus as far as viability is concerned. Shadow Ball and Sludge Wave is perfect coverage outside of Pawniard and Stunky in LC (sandile?), and does not suffer from the Hidden Power nerf nearly as much as Misdreavus. Gastly does not lose to Tangela like Misdreavus does, as it can't even OHKO eviolite Tangela at +2, but Gastly always will with just a life orb. This replay shows the advantages of Gastly over Misdreavus, as if I had Misdreavus, it would not have ended this way. I would have gotten stalled out by Munchlax if I did not carry Taunt or Nasty Plot, nor would I have been able to KO Tangela. B is fine for Gastly, if anything it should rise, not drop.
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- Status