Landorus-I Discussion: Evaluating a Potential Suspect

[kd24]

Let's do it

Landorus-I Discussion
Artwork by: Yilx

We knew this would eventually go up. Landorus-I is one of the most dominant forces in OU right now because of how much offensive presence it has. But is it suspect? Some players in the community think it deserves to be and so this thread serves as a rallying cry for those who think it's suspect, and a chance to respond to those arguments for the OU camp.

Unlike other suspects, there isn't universal agreement on the next step of suspect testing. Some reservations have even been displayed by the council about where to go from here. I think Landorus-I is the next logical jump and it's one that should be discussed. As I said, this thread serves to discuss Landorus-I and what makes it potentially Uber (or suspect). As it progresses, I hope it gives us an idea of what makes a general Pokemon Uber/Suspect as well.

Before I talk about Landorus-I, there's rules I need to set that will be enforced strictly.

RULES

- Landorus-I is not a Suspect at this time. You either make a case or refute the points of the other side. That's it. If I find your post incoherent to the topic at hand, it will be deleted.

- We are not discussing anything else besides Landorus-I in this thread. I'm basically reiterating this.

- If you're on the suspect side, your job should be first and foremost to convince the council it should be a suspect. The onus is on you and your posts need to reflect that. If you don't take time to think about what you're saying, then I won't waste time in deleting posts that serve no purpose.

- This goes without saying, but I'm going to say it anyway. This thread is not a cesspool for flaming, trolling, or non-serious posts. If you're going to act like that and you want council to consider Landorus-I as a suspect, good luck. No better way to drive a wedge between you and the council than by shitting up a thread.

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Why I think Landorus-I is worthy of a suspect test:

The more I play OU, the more I realize just how powerful Landorus-I really is. I'm going to actually start off with some relevant calcs taken from http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/damagecalc/

I am going to bold the relevant calcs which provide "counters" to Landorus-I, so I can talk about them more efficiently later on:

This is assuming Timid Landorus-I:

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Damage Calculations

252 SpA Life Orb Landorus Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Breloom: 278-328 (106.1 - 125.19%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Landorus Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 236+ SpD Celebi: 133-159 (32.92 - 39.35%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 237-281 (36.34 - 43.09%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 120 HP / 136 SpD Conkeldurr: 269-317 (70.6 - 83.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Donphan: 344-407 (89.58 - 105.98%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Life Orb Landorus Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dragonite: 364-432 (112.69 - 133.74%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Landorus Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 182-216 (56.34 - 66.87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 309-367 (87.78 - 104.26%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Forretress: 341-403 (96.32 - 113.84%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Life Orb Landorus Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 416-494 (116.2 - 137.98%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 172+ SpD Gastrodon: 203-239 (47.65 - 56.1%) -- 83.98% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Life Orb Landorus Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Gengar: 117-138 (44.65 - 52.67%) -- 85.94% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Life Orb Landorus Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gliscor: 468-551 (132.2 - 155.64%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 56 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 101-120 (29.27 - 34.78%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Haxorus: 305-360 (103.74 - 122.44%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 203-239 (48.33 - 56.9%) -- 92.58% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Hydreigon: 442-523 (135.58 - 160.42%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Jirachi: 335-398 (82.92 - 98.51%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Keldeo: 250-294 (77.16 - 90.74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Jellicent: 220-259 (54.59 - 64.26%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 220+ SpD Jellicent: 164-192 (40.59 - 47.52%) -- 6.64% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Jirachi: 335-398 (82.92 - 98.51%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Keldeo: 250-294 (77.16 - 90.74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-B: 442-523 (97.35 - 115.19%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Life Orb Landorus Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 146-174 (40.1 - 47.8%) -- 7.42% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Life Orb Landorus Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Latias: 112-133 (30.76 - 36.53%) -- 79.3% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Life Orb Landorus Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 169-200 (55.96 - 66.22%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Politoed: 230-270 (59.89 - 70.31%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 192 HP / 0 SpD Reuniclus: 261-308 (63.81 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 232+ SpD Rotom-W: 142-168 (46.86 - 55.44%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Scizor: 273-321 (79.59 - 93.58%) -- 43.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 224 HP / 32 SpD Skarmory: 260-307 (79.51 - 93.88%) -- 43.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Starmie: 261-308 (100 - 118%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tentacruel: 393-463 (107.96 - 127.19%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Terrakion: 499-588 (154.01 - 181.48%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Landorus Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus-T: 221-260 (73.91 - 86.95%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 180 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in sand: 541-640 (140.15 - 165.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Vaporeon: 239-282 (51.61 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Venusaur: 230-270 (76.15 - 89.4%) -- 18.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona: 220-259 (59.29 - 69.81%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

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These were Damage Calculations for Timid Landorus-I vs the OU metagame. By my count there are 10 Pokemon in OU I'd even feel comfortable enough to have around Landorus-I. They at least can come in on Earth Power thanks to immunity and threaten it right out, or have type advantage and the ability to come in on other moves. Special Defense Jellicent, Latias, Latios, Celebi, Blissey, Gengar, Starmie, Rotom-W, Keldeo and Gyarados.

Stop

Look at that selection of Pokemon and look at how efficiently Tyranitar pairs up with Landorus-I, while also inflicting Sandstorm damage to take down even some of the better counters. Look at how many of them are in turn set up fodder for Skarmory, Ferrothorn, or Blissey. And just consider how pivotal these Pokemon are in keeping the rest of the game balanced. Can they really be devoting all their time to keeping Landorus in check, especially when he can throw out moves that force them to severely lose tempo?

Landorus-I brings something which no Pokemon really has brought before as a suspect and that is immediate danger whenever its brought out. Because it takes advantage of an actual excellent typing (Immunity to Electric and Ground, while resistant to Fighting thrives in an OU that is usually dictated by those moves (EQ, Volt Switch, Close Combat)), it can come in for free and put the pressure on you to not immediately lose right there. It's like Dragonite except it doesn't have to set up a Dragon Dance to be that danger. It has natural Speed and the power to just bully through whatever comes in. The calcs that spoke to me the most were the 2HKOs on Bulky, Special Defensive mons. You can't ignore that you have to dedicate slots to stopping Landorus-I. Which leaves into my next point:

Unpredictability (as a Special Sweeper)

Holy Shit. I thought Jirachi was bad, but Landorus-I is somehow so simple, yet so dangerous because you can't be quite sure what it's going to do before it does it. Celebi, Latios, Latias, Starmie, Stealth Rock weaknesses, etc can be exploited by U-Turn. The hard walls to Landorus-I suddenly become easy pickings because like I said, when he's out, he needs to be stopped immediately and the only sure way to do that is usually going to a counter. Now Landorus-I is acting as scout, to see how you play around him. Even if you decide to play it safely with what you have in, at worst it U-Turns out to safety while taking a rare 10% from Life Orb. Immunity to Sand and Spikes means it can wear you down even if you can avoid losing counters.

But just as dangerous is Rock Polish, which allows Landorus-I to use those free turns of set-up to outspeed your entire team. Your checks and counters are basically switching off use as Celebi and Latias shine in stopping it, but scarfers and faster threats now have to run scared. Rock Polish allows you to choose Modest as a nature, as you can be assured nothing is outspeeding you in the foreseeable future. Those damage calcs above become even more impressive.

I'm not throwing Psychic out of the discussion either. Paired with Tyranitar, Landorus's coverage becomes almost flawless and can now start to bully on some of those checks and counters.

You're never going to know what exactly Landorus-I has in store for you until he does it, and it's because he does those things so well that it makes him very hard to play around. It's sometimes unavoidable that he will force your hand and that immediate firepower he holds makes switching almost unbearable.

Landorus-I pretty much exemplifies what I consider a suspect to be - a Pokemon that unfairly controls the terms of the match because of the sheer power it possesses. It's one thing for a Pokemon to have a good typing or to be unpredictable, but it's another when those are traits that shine on a Pokemon that has such explosive power just from switching in.

Am I sold on it being Uber? No, and it's an important distinction you have to make in this thread. You can be supportive of something as a suspect because it fits the guidelines that you have created, without actually thinking its Uber. I believe I abstained on Keldeo's first vote or just voted OU because I was split down the middle (I'll check for reference), but I assure you that I think it was a suspect and still is today. We can try to clarify that distinction in this thread while we also try to give our argument to the council. Thanks for reading and make sure that you take the time to think about what you post.

 

[Joeyboy]

Yeah for me the major factor for Landorus-I is unpredictability. Sure most of them are Rock Polish Sheer Force variants, but the key word there is most. I'm sure we've all made a team that looks, and works great, with Celebi as our Landorus-I counter then... Oh damn it just U-Turned.. Landorus-I is such an amazing lure for Celebi its preposterous.

Plus what happens when you switch your Blissey in on it and oh... It Swords Danced, ok quick go to Skarm! Who is promptly 2HKO'd by Sand Force +2 Stone Edge.

Plus even if it is RP ShF Lando its just way too easy to sweep with it even if your opponent has solid checks/counters. As seen in those calcs(btw am I the only one who didn't know PS had a damagecalc) LO ShF HP Ice 3HKOs Celebi. Just HP Ice on the switch to Celebi and then your opponent has to Recover, then you switch to something like Scizor or Tyranitar and the momentum is totally in your favor.

It's definite suspect material.

 

[JabbaTheGriffin]

Right now, the only reason that Landorus is so unpredictable is because we're unable to tell whether it's Sheer Force or Sand Force on the initial switchin (you should be able to know which it is by the Pokeball it comes out of). It kind of reminds me of when Sand Force was coded as a 1.5x boost when it was actually 1.3x. Landorus is currently much better than it should be because of this. I don't really know what to say besides that at this point, because it's impossible to tell what effect this would have on Landorus (I believe it'd make him much easier to handle, as both physical and special sets are relatively easy to counter/check, but the unpredictability on the initial switchin can be troublesome).

 

[kd24]

Right now, the only reason that Landorus is so unpredictable is because we're unable to tell whether it's Sheer Force or Sand Force on the initial switchin (you should be able to know which it is by the Pokeball it comes out of). It kind of reminds me of when Sand Force was coded as a 1.5x boost when it was actually 1.3x. Landorus is currently much better than it should be because of this. I don't really know what to say besides that at this point, because it's impossible to tell what effect this would have on Landorus (I believe it'd make him much easier to handle, as both physical and special sets are relatively easy to counter/check, but the unpredictability on the initial switchin can be troublesome).

I want to say that this is a major detail that needs to be fixed, but my section on unpredictability was only referring to the special set (albeit atm, a physical Landorus-I is also a threat that I should have maybe mentioned it but I think the majority of players problem lies squarely on the shoulder of the special set).

 

[Meru]

Right now, the only reason that Landorus is so unpredictable is because we're unable to tell whether it's Sheer Force or Sand Force on the initial switchin (you should be able to know which it is by the Pokeball it comes out of). It kind of reminds me of when Sand Force was coded as a 1.5x boost when it was actually 1.3x. Landorus is currently much better than it should be because of this. I don't really know what to say besides that at this point, because it's impossible to tell what effect this would have on Landorus (I believe it'd make him much easier to handle, as both physical and special sets are relatively easy to counter/check, but the unpredictability on the initial switchin can be troublesome).

I think when kd24 was highlighting unpredictability, he was trying to emphasize how the presence of U-turn on the Sheer Force set can completely nullify its (imo) two best counters in Celebi and Latias.

The color of the Pokeball does nothing to fix this issue.

 

[Prinz]

I completely agree with JoeyBoy. Landorus-T can run a Rock Polish Sheer Force variants (some set has Substitute, Psychic or Sludge Wave instead of Rock Polish but they're all inferior choices in my humble opinion) but it can also run a Sword Dance variants or a Choice Scarf variants which are both a very good lure to the most common checks of the Rock Polish variants such as Celebi and Blissey for example.

I also see some Sheer Force variants with U-Turn instead of Rock Polish and they completely surprise me...I remember a battle where I switch Celebi into opponent's Landorus (I was using a Sand Stall of Hippowdon / Skarmory / Jellicent / Heatran / Specially Defensive Celebi and Starmie btw), Celebi tanked quite easily the Earth Power but then Landorus used U-Turn and my Celebi died and finally Landorus came back and destroyed my whole team without any problem. Landorus-I is definitely a good lure on the current BW OU metagame and if it's used correctly it can surprise many people (JoeyBoy's example about Sword Dance Landorus-I, Blissey and Skarmory makes the thing more understandable I think, it's a good example which explains how Landorus-I can destroy a Defensive teams only with the surprise factor), for this reason Landorus-I can be suspect material.

 

[Jirachee]

What in my opinion makes Landorus so powerful is the fact that it can run either U-turn or Rock Polish. While Psychic and Sludge Wave are good moves, I don't think they can really break Landorus... Most sets run Earth Power/Focus Blast/Hidden Power Ice already, so the final move is either U-turn or Rock Polish. Rock Polish is an incredibly good sweeper as it's really powerful and it can't be checked by scarfers, but it does has its checks, the main ones being Latias, Latios, Celebi, Blissey and Gengar. The problem with that is that while you can check it, most of these, aside from Gengar, are completely fucked by U-turn, especially if Landorus is paired with Tyranitar, who can Pursuit them for the KO, then leaving Landorus alone to do some serious damage. Blissey can't really switch into Landorus directly because there's always the possibility of it running a Physical set which will obliterate it, especially in Sand. In my opinion all the different possibilities that Landorus has makes it impossible to switch into reliably because it's impossible to know its set from the start, which gives an unfair advantage to the player using it.

 

[Sam]

Even then you're not going to be able to tell based on Team Preview alone, so while the 'unpredicatability' may not be as much of a factor, it's still a relatively valid point. Let's say Celebi is your one poke that can handle SF Lando, and you sacrifice a bit in order to keep Celebi healthy. All of the sudden it turns out your opponent has a physical Lando which Celebi is useless against (assuming U-turn).

The thing with Landorus, though, is how much do we factor in teambuilding in to suspecting? I don't think Landorus-I on it's own is necessarily broken because there are some things which can take it with ease. However, as stated in the OP, Tyranitar is a godsend to this thing not only with it's ability to wreck most of it's counters, but also setting up sand which boosts physical sets (as well as the passive damage). However, this is a combination of two pokemon, not one.

Obviously though, Landorus-I is the more offensive and 'capable' part of this duo. I believe it to be broken after using it for so long (and on some teams without TTar). I don't believe bluffing a physical set is even that necessary in deeming it broken, as it's offensive capabilities alone are enough to warrant a suspect in my opinion.

 

[JabbaTheGriffin]

I think when kd24 was highlighting unpredictability, he was trying to emphasize how the presence of U-turn on the Sheer Force set can completely nullify its (imo) two best counters in Celebi and Latias.

The color of the Pokeball does nothing to fix this issue.

Yeah but then you're turning Lando-I from one of the best sweepers into the game into an okay lure. It does its job just like any other lure in the game. But if I'm playing against someone and I see they have special lando, I would be completely fine with them trading one of their moves for U-turn.

What I'm getting at is that almost any top threat in the game can serve as a lure for one of their traditional counters. What separates the Suspects/Ubers from the rest of the game is the ability to take out their own "counters" and then continue to sweep. Landorus-I just turns into a relatively slow 4 attack mon if you opt for U-turn. Pokemon like Thundurus-I and Excadrill were able to tear through the metagame without having to neuter themselves.

 

[Joeyboy]

Right now, the only reason that Landorus is so unpredictable is because we're unable to tell whether it's Sheer Force or Sand Force on the initial switchin (you should be able to know which it is by the Pokeball it comes out of). It kind of reminds me of when Sand Force was coded as a 1.5x boost when it was actually 1.3x. Landorus is currently much better than it should be because of this. I don't really know what to say besides that at this point, because it's impossible to tell what effect this would have on Landorus (I believe it'd make him much easier to handle, as both physical and special sets are relatively easy to counter/check, but the unpredictability on the initial switchin can be troublesome).

I never thought of that, cause Sheer Force Lando can only be in a Dream Ball(correct me if I'm wrong) due to only coming from the Dream Radar. Is there anyway to replicate this on the server, we wouldn't have to make different animations for each PokeBall as this one example is the only thing it seems to affect.

An example fix could be where you can mouse over a Pokemon's sprite while in battle on PS you get to see all of its potential abilities, well maybe just for Landorus-I instead of seeing all possible abilities you just see its actual ability so as to better emulate the cart games.

I don't know the tech side so maybe thats not possible but its merely a suggestion. Also if this is detracting from the thread you can delete this, just thought I'd mention something.

 

[Mon]

If you are going to run with the whole unpredictability aspect of it, a Landorus-I can run sludge wave, which messes with Celebi and Gyrados, timid natures getting a 2hko on specially defensive celebi and gyarados with rocks

Hide

Gyarados (OU Bulky Dragon Dance) Sludge Wave 42.93 - 50.93% Celebi (OU Specially Defensive) Sludge Wave 57.92 - 68.81%

a neutral sheer force boosted sludge wave is almost a powerful as a 2*effective HP ice, so you only lose a bit on max/max+ latias

Hide

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Latias: 96-114 (26.37 - 31.31%) -- possible 4HKO

 

[Tressed]

I don't have a problem with suspecting Landorus at all. Even though its checked by some of the best Pokemon in the meta, such as Celebi and Latias, they're only checks. The only Pokemon I would say counters an all out attacking Landorus, defensively speaking, is Cresselia, who takes %17-20 from Focus Blast. Alternatively, if you'd like to switch up Psychic in exchange for Sludge Wave, nine OU viable Pokemon can take less than %50 percent from Landorus (this is with a Timid nature, btw). Offensive counters... basically, since Landorus has access to Rock Polish, Ice Shards from Mamoswine, Weavile, and CB Abomasnow are pretty much the only ways of reliably revenging it. The other way of dealing with it is by not letting it set up in the first place, which means that you'll have to keep something bulky in reserve so that you can tank one hit and knock it out. That's sorta scary, especially since it isn't difficult at all for the Landorus user to nail you on the switch in for the 2HKO.
It does have weaknesses, for sure. Water STABs ruin it, Ice attacks (which damn near every special attacker that lacks coverage uses) ruin it, status really hampers it, but these don't really seem that big of a deal considering that Tornadus T had the same problems. (and honestly, every Pokemon is hampered by status, that's not a new idea).
So yeah, we should definitely give it a look under the suspect lamp.

 

[kd24]

If you are going to run with the whole unpredictability aspect of it, a Landorus-I can run sludge wave, which messes with Celebi and Gyrados, timid natures getting a 2hko on specially defensive celebi and gyarados with rocks

Hide

Gyarados (OU Bulky Dragon Dance) Sludge Wave 42.93 - 50.93% Celebi (OU Specially Defensive) Sludge Wave 57.92 - 68.81%

a neutral sheer force boosted sludge wave is almost a powerful as a 2*effective HP ice, so you only lose a bit on max/max+ latias

Hide

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Latios: 109-129 (29.94 - 35.43%) -- 28.22% chance to 3HKO

Losing Hidden Power Ice is a really big deal. Getting the drop on Dragon-types while only gaining legitimate coverage vs Celebi (if Gyarados is coming in, it's on a predicted Earth Power. It simply can't switch in willy nilly with the threat of Stealth Rock, and if it gets in safely, rest assured I am switching my Landorus-I out anyway).

I have to disagree with Jabba, I think Landorus-I is an almost perfect user of U-Turn. There's a difference between using a lure set which decreases your function and using a move that simply allows you to bully through slower Pokemon, scout, and work yourself over your best counters. Losing Rock Polish can hurt, but even with the threat of it until they reveal U-Turn, you won't be giving it too much set up opportunity to set it up, which allows it to just punish you with attacks anyway.

 

[Ojama]

To me, Landorus-I is one of the best OU Sweepers I've ever seen. Sheer Force is an absolutely broken ability and paired with such a monster you have an unstoppable Pokemon. kd24 made a lot of calcs with a Timid Nature, but people are now almost always running Modest with a Bulky Spread (88 HP / 252 SAtk / 168 Spd) which makes Landorus-I even more threatening.

252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 260-307 (39.87 - 47.08%) -- 39.45% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and weather

Landorus-I is often paired with Tyranitar to remove its few counters (Latias, Latios, Celebi etc) and so Sandstorm cancels Leftovers which makes the issue even bigger. Landorus-I 2HKOs almost everything with Earth Power (Amoonguss and Jellicent are 2HKO'd after Stealth Rock) and Focus Blast hits extremely hard (it 2HKOs Specially Defensive Rotom-W).

Landorus-I is even extremely bulky for such an amazing Sweeper. With the bulky Spread I gave, it has 340 HP and 196 Def which is extremely good. In addition, it has extremely good resistances and a Spikes/TSpikes immunity and also a Ground Immunity. This thing is just scary and I really think that this thing should be tested for the next suspect.

Jabba pointed out that we can't know what kind of Landorus-I it is which makes it very unpredictable and I'm going to second this. Landorus-I was already a big threat for almost everyteam with its great Attack and its strong Stab'd + Boosted Earthquake in Sand thanks to Sand Force. I've been facing a few ScarfLandorus-I or Sub Landorus-I and so I had to change my plan to handle it. Look at its counters : Latios, Celebi etc. Maybe they are able to handle the Specially Set quite well (and we all know they don't really because of U-Turn) but are they able to handle the Physically Set ? No.

It has access to Swords Dance, Calm Mind and Rock Polish, three of the best set up moves, what else do you want? I might try to test the CM Set because it can be extremely funny to destroy an entire Stall with it even if there is a Blissey or Chansey.

You can even use it as a Stealth Rocker and its a really good one. With Sheer Force, there is no LO Recoil expect with HP Ice which makes it really hard to kill. In addition, while the Sand Force version isn't that amazing in Rains, the Sheer Force version works very well and is one of the best Rain Offenses members.

Definitely the most threatening Pokemon of the tier along with Keldeo and should be suspected for the next round.

Hide

Some Calcs with a Modest Nature:

252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Blissey: 286-338 (43.86 - 51.84%) -- 77.73% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Life Orb Landorus Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 185-218 (61.25 - 72.18%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Life Orb Landorus Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 161-190 (44.23 - 52.19%) -- 80.86% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 220+ SpD Jellicent: 179-212 (44.3 - 52.47%) -- 84.38% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Life Orb Landorus Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 232+ SpD Celebi: 146-174 (36.13 - 43.06%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 228+ SpD Amoonguss: 212-251 (49.07 - 58.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Life Orb Landorus Hidden Power Ice vs. 248 HP / 236+ SpD Zapdos: 159-187 (41.51 - 48.82%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Hippowdon: 243-289 (57.85 - 68.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 232+ SpD Rotom-W: 155-183 (51.15 - 60.39%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO - Guaranteed 2HKO with Stealth Rock or Sandstorm.

252+ SpA Life Orb Landorus Hidden Power Ice vs. 44 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus-T: 242-286 (80.93 - 95.65%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 204-242 (47.88 - 56.8%) -- 88.28% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

 

[Joeyboy]

Oh yeah wow I totally forgot about CM Landorus there for a cool minute. It honestly 6-0s stall its nuts. I don't have calcs or anything but I'm pretty sure it can set up on Celebi lacking Perish Song.

So many different sets, each with very different counters.

 

[GatoDelFuego]

I think what makes special landorus such a brilliant sweeper is that it has the raw power to 2HKO everything it needs to already; it only has to boost up to outrun anything it doesn't already. Whereas sweepers like garchomp or dragonite or scizor have to boost their offensive stats, landorus hits hard enough already to blast apart any defensive team, and with a boost it outruns even the fastest in the metagame.

And then you have the physical set, which hits hard enough to blast apart defensive teams. It honestly hits equally hard on both sides of the split; and both of its sets are perfectly viable. Two great immunities and two great abilities allow this thing to fit on a huge number of teams and the physical set only needs tyranitar or hippowdon to skyrocket its attack. It's definitely a very defining force in the game.

 

[Dark Fallen Angel]

It's a shame that the special set is the culprit for making Landorus so threathening. Its physical sets are also amazing but are easier to check or counter; not broken at all. It's a shame that it's the special sets that are broken. I can't make a team without it having a Sheer Force Landorus' weakness. When I created a stall team, I already knew that its weakness was to Sheer Force Landorus (which could destroy every wall). When I created a hyper-offensive team, I already knew that it was going to be destroyed by Sheer Force Landorus if I gave just one setup opportunity to it. I have difficulty in creating a team that can reliably check Sheer Force Landorus without it being weak to one particular threat, and this makes me sad, and I bet that many people have the same problem...

 

[Nachos]

I think Landorus is probably the best offensive Pokemon in OU right now, but I agree with Jabba in that it's just missing something that puts it in the came category as what we've had in the past. I mean, its Earth Power destroys next to everything, but at the same time, power isn't gamebreaking when your speed stat isn't something that can sweep a tier (other examples include Haxorus, Kyurem-B, possibly Thundurus-T). Yeah, it can Rock Polish and pull off a last game sweep, but quite a lot of other things can sweep after they've got a speed boost (or any boost) and their counters have been weakened. A good example of this is Agility Lucario and Metagross in DPP - two sweepers that that have the ability to annihilate unprepared (and prepared) teams themselves. Strong attacking stat + boosted speed isn't enough for something to be broken, even if the Pokemon in question hits like a truck with its STAB move. They are examples from a previous gen, but I think they're similar cases to what we have now.

Adding a Tyranitar or another trapper to anything makes them more potent. It's part of the game. I mean, if you add Dugtrio to your Sun team to remove Heatran, then obviously Venusaur/Volcarona will have an easier time. It's the same case here. Tyranitar works well with Keldeo, etc. When you use Latias, you need to bear in mind that your opponent probably has a Tyranitar too. I don't really know what to say here, which is probably why this thing could be considered suspect. Tyranitar+Anything that benefits from is trapping potential works well honestly..

If it has U-turn, then it becomes a lot less threatening, and becomes another 'Pokemon X with strong attack'. We already have a lot of those, and their main STAB isn't immune to a common typing either. While Landorus does have U-turn, it's kinda weak and while you are switching out a counter like Latias, you're telling your opponent that you're slow and probably won't be a huge problem in the late game

Finally, the physical set is almost extinct from what I've seen, but the current glitch is definitely something we should consider anyway.

 

[joshe]

sludge wave loses games dont use it (read: younii vs marcelodk in spl).

as far as landorus-i suspecting is concerned, it's pretty obvious that it's the best pokemon in the meta right now but we have to stop redefining "broken" whenever we ban something. this constant trail of banning the next best thing has to stop at some point and if we continue it'll end up in a worse meta than dpp was.

Landorus-i has some pretty solid checks in celebi, blissey, latias, latios, zapdos, rotom-w, blissey, chansey, gyarados, gengar, etc. or basically anything that is immune to ground moves, resists fighting moves and is bulky enough to not be 2HKO'd by Hidden Power [Ice]. Sure you can make a case that U-turn and Psychic beat these guys but then you just lose something else, i.e. you lose to dragonite now with psychic and you can't sweep shit without rock polish. Focus Blast beats Rotom-w, Skarmory but good luck hitting 2 focus blasts in a row (you have a ~49% chance). run u-turn and you lose out on the sweeping power that rock polish can give. don't run u-turn and you 2HKO Latias and Latios with Hidden Power [Ice] (hint: they're faster and you die) and you 3HKO Celebi and Zapdos at best. lol! read below for u-turn vs double switching argument. With cherish ball on dream world pokemon you have another hint at what set it's going to be, i.e. not physical set so you can run all these popular and standard pokemon to beat special landorus-i or run stuff like Skarmory or Hippo or QUAGSIRE to beat physical landorus (i totally agree with cherish ball on PS for dream world pokemon).

I'm clearly not denying that Landorus-i is great and can sweep with some support (i.e. with the famous tyranitar + keldeo combo). what i'm trying to say is can we please stop redefining broken every time we can something. we are such a ban happy community that we just redefine the ban characteristic every single time we want something out of the tier. If you talk to main players and leaders of dpp, quite a few will say that banning latias and salamence was a mistake and that they could've dealt with those mons if they just thought about how to beat them. the same argument applies with Landorus-i. you argue that u-turn beats celebi, latios, latias, gengar by u-turning on them and then beating them with Tyranitar. wouldn't the same apply by just double switching to tyranitar? How about the fact that Keldeo beats down landorus' counters with Icy Wind and Hidden Power [Bug] and vice versa. yeah, why don't we ban keldeo for doing that.

Again, we redefine the term "broken" or "overpowered" in the favor of an easier playing style or easier metagame in which you don't have to THINK in order to beat something. We just argue "OMG Celebi gets 3HKO'd by HP-ICE and I can u-turn on it and beat it with Tyranitar -- Landorus is broken." I'm pretty sure I could still argue that Tornadus-t and Deoxys-D weren't broken, hell I could probably still argue that Excadrill wasn't broken back then (might be broken now that it gets Iron Head but hell who knows when you haven't tested it): we just wanted them out of OU because they required a thought process to beat it or we just got sick of having to 'deal' with them because they were centralizing the metagame, especially in Excadrill and Tornadus-t case.

This current meta will be the best meta you'll ever get out of black and white 2 and you're only making it worse and worse by banning whatever you redefine as "broken" because you're searching for a better metagame which hasn't happened and won't ever happen. If we test and ban Landorus-I without thinking of how to beat or counter it, we have seriously failed at another generation of pokemon tier balancing. I don't understand why we can't stop making such a huge fuss over testing and banning the next best thing when we can just enjoy the 'best' the metagame has ever been. please quote me on this when we ban landorus, rain, then sun, keldeo and then possibly sand by the time gen 6 comes out and we stop caring about old 5th gen.

 

[TaBuu]

Landorus-Incarnate has always been a top-tier threat even from the early days of BW1 when his Sand Force ability scared the sh*t out of everyone. Come around BW2 and now he gets Sheer Force, arguably one of Pokemon's most broken ability to ever be introduced. Landorus-I is honestly one of the scarier Pokemon to face if you aren't prepared.
I think his most intimidating trait is that Landorus-Incarnate has no definitive counter. His physical sets are always walled by Skarmory. However, introduce Gravity into the equation and your sole Landorus counter is looking pretty scared. His special sets have trouble getting past things such as Celebi. However, that Landorus is capable of having U-Turn, OHKOing the pixie on the switch.
Even many offensive checks can be eliminated easily by Landorus. Rotom-W is usually a sure-fire answer until Gravity comes into play. Latias may stroll in expecting the Earth Power from Landorus-I but instead take a U-Turn and end up getting trapped by Tyranitar. Then Landorus can come back out any time and wreck havoc.
However, Landorus is very susceptible to being revenge killed as his typing and Speed tier is a little vunerable. However, these are honestly little hindrances than major issues for the Sand Genie.
TBH, I'm very torn on Landorus. He really is such a good Pokemon and I'm a little reluctant to see it go. But at the same time, I know that this guy is just a little powerful with his brute strength and "un"counterability.

 

[Snowflakes]

I really want to say something but joshe and nachos just say it so much better..

Seriously, this thing is fine I never even considered it cause I put it in line with luke and other late game sweepers, that's all it is isn't it? yeah it has diversity but fuck I didn't know that lures were a bad thing.

Stop looking for shit to suspect when there's no need too.

 

[Lavos]

as far as landorus-i goes i'm pretty convinced that it's not worthy of our time in suspect discussions. it's not bulky enough and has too many flaws to be able to be considered uber, plus common checks/counters are everywhere. it's weak to water (2nd most common offensive type) meaning it's hard to switch in and setting up can also be difficult. it's not even that powerful tbh, earth power and focus blast are pretty strong but if you force it to hp ice you can just life orb stall it out with sdef celebi, roost latios/latias, zapdos, etc. really not hard to counteract. i understand the u-turn set exists to better handle these checks and counters but then where are you vs stuff like sun teams where you'd normally sweep or do a good number at least on them but now you lack rp and thus can't do anything? whichever move you choose, you lose the other one and thus a lot of prowess vs certain types of teams is lost. just like every other mediocre ou sweeper, you're forced to make tradeoffs in teambuilding and regardless of what you do you're going to be weak to something else.

the way i see it is that having landorus-i on your team is just asking for your battle to be decided by team matchup. if your opponent has one or two checks to landorus-i, and your team can't weaken them, it's a waste of a pokemon, and if your opponent doesn't have checks or counters, you sweep. idc if you want to call that a shortsighted way of evaluating the pokemon but that's how i see it. frankly i have no idea why we're spending time discussing landorus-i when politoed and ninetales are still wreaking havoc, but i'm not part of the elite ou council so i can't say.

@yee: 252 SpAtk Life Orb Landorus (+SpAtk) Earth Power vs 252 HP/248 SpDef Gastrodon (+SpDef) : 37.32% - 43.66% so gastro still checks (not like it's a huge deal but still)

 

[Arcticblast]

One thing I've found out after using Landorus-I a few times is that it's incredibly powerful and is easily capable of wrecking teams, but as Lavos said, it's not that bulky. It's incredibly difficult to switch in. Even against something relatively weak, it's not going to enjoy taking a hit. For example, an uninvested Celebi does 30.4 - 36.05% with Giga Drain*. After SR damage, this puts Landorus squarely in the KO range of CB Scizor (at worst, Landorus needs one more turn of LO recoil to go down). Even if you think you can get Landorus in on something like a weakened SpD TTar, the opponent can just as easily play around it and bring Keldeo or Latias in as you bring in Landorus.

For the record, the "omg guys you can U-Turn or play around Lando's counters, ban plz" argument works the same way if you flip it around.
*yes, I know no Landorus will switch into Celebi. That's not the point.

 

[yee]

I'm honestly a bit surprised there is this many people that don't find Landorus broken and even some who don't see it as holding a potential aggravating factor. The very first time I used it I jumped a little, I knew I was using a top OU threat and still did about 30% more than I expected to. It effectively has something like 160-170 Base SpA and has enough power to break through things like Rotom-W and Gastrodon that would normally be just fine to at least check this kind of top tier threat once. I think it is broken solely because of it's special attacking ability that makes things like Terrakion look soft- the only way you can actually survive two hits is Blissey / Celebi / Latias / Zapdos which are all just about the easiest pokemon in any metagame ever to wear down. I guess it's fine if a wallbreaking Dragon has no counters in a metagame with Rain but this is a speed boosting sweeper, and not an initially slow one IMO. With U-Turn, it can literally beat anything switching into it fairly easily, with the consistency it brings I don't understand why carrying one of these things forces you to rely on team matchup or how it's impossible that banning it could improve the metagame.

 

[Dark Fallen Angel]

Having very few or no counters does not make something broken. However, Landorus-I can boost its speed. At least Pokémon like Hydreigon have mediocre speed, and Hydreigon even lacks two things that Landorus has: Sheer Force and consistent STAB moves. Terrakion at least has too many weakness and is easy to check, and its counters are not weak to Pursuit and not that easy to wear down. Kyurem-B at least has many weakness, including one to Stealth Rock, and like Hydreigon, it has middling speed.

What Landorus has? Weakness to Ice Shard? Well, simply predict the Ice Shard and switch to a Water-type or Steel-type like Keldeo or Scizor, both which can easily beat Mamoswine. It is weak to Water? It is not like Landorus is going to switch on Water-types anyway, and all of them except Gyarados and Rotom-W are 2HKOed by Earth Power. It is frail? Landorus is not as frail as things like Thundurus-T - it can take many resisted hits very well and has a decent physical bulk (for an offensive Pokémon) - on par with Keldeo.

Finally, there's the fact that its two most common "counters", Celebi and Latias, are weak to U-Turn and Pursuit. Zapdos is uncommon and unless it has Hidden Power Ice, can't do much back to Landorus. Blissey has a chance to be 2HKOed by Focus Blast after Stealth Rock damage and will fall to any partner that carry a strong physical attack. Chansey is on the same boat. Also, while neither are weak to Pursuit, they are easily defeated by Tyranitar, which destroy both with its STAB attacks and do massive damage with Pursuit if they switch out, despite their lack of weakness to it.