Kyogre (Analysis)

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Badal

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[Overview]
its a whale

[SET]
name: Choice Specs
move 1: Water Spout
move 2: Surf
move 3: Thunder
move 4: Ice Beam
item: Choice Specs
nature: Timid / Modest
evs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Choice Specs Kyogre is without a doubt the most fearsome Pokemon in the Uber metagame. In the rain, its Water Spout will always 2HKO Blissey, something that virtually no other special attacker can boast. Kyogre is an extremely useful and powerful wallbreaker. Since Kyogre can hit a Pokemon so hard, it wouldn't be safe to switch into since Kyogre can really dent the HP of a Pokemon. Water Spout can effectively 2HKO most Pokemon in the metagame and as such is useful in doing a lot of damage to the opponent. Surf is useful when Kyogre's HP is low, with a STAB boost, Surf can pack a punch. Thunder is used to deal with other Kyogre and to predict a Palkia switch-in. Thunder also has a nice 30% paralysis chance which can be useful. Ice Beam provides good coverage to Kyogre. With Modest nature, Kyogre may even 2HKO Quagsire.</p>

Additional Comments:
<p>The choice between Timid and Modest is one of Speed over Power. Being faster is usually more useful since this allows Kyogre to get a speed tie with other 90 Speed Pokemon. A Water-, Electric- and Ice-type coverage is extremely useful for Kyogre since it can hit everything except Lanturn and Shedinja for neutral damage. it can run a maximum Special Attack and Speed set with a Timid nature to be able to run a mid-game sweeper moveset, but it appreciates the bulk it receives from the maximum HP EVs. Choice Specs is an obvious choice since it allows Kyogre to get the maximum Special Attack stats allowing it to do the maximum damage. Fast leads that carry taunt like Deoxys-S are good Pokemont o have since they can keep opposing hazards away, allowing Kyogre to get in and do maximum damage. Scizor and Tyranitar are good partners to deal with Latias with Pursuit and Crunch in Tyranitar's case. It Partners well with Blissey which can take the special attacks coming from Latias and Palkia. Be mindful of mixed or physical Palkia variants.</p>

[SET]
name: Choice Scarf
move 1: Water Spout
move 2: Surf
move 3: Thunder
move 4: Ice Beam
item: Choice Scarf
nature: Timid
evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

Why this set deserves to be on-site:

  • Aims for sweeping or revenge killing with its higher Speed stat.
  • Still enormously powerful, but no longer the wallbreaker that Choice Specs Kyogre is.
Additional Comments:

  • Always use Timid because you want to be as fast as possible and at worst tie with opposing Choice Scarf Dialga and base 90 Speed Pokemon.
  • Water-, Electric-, and Ice-type coverage is amazing and hits everything bar Lanturn and Shedinja for neutral damage.
Teammates and Counters:

  • Best checks to this are Latias and then Palkia. In the rain, Palkia can still be 2HKOed by Water Spout, so you have to be careful.
  • Quagsire is also an excellent check with Water Absorb, an immunity to Thunder, and a neutrality to Ice Beam.
  • Because of Choice Scarf and reduced power, Kyogre now has issues with Giratina, specially bulky Dialga, and opposing Blissey.
  • Hates entry hazards with a passion because they immediately reduce the damage output of Water Spout.
  • Like fast Taunting leads like Deoxys-S to keep opposing hazards away so it can get in and do massive damage.
  • Scizor and Tyranitar are good partners to deal with the aforementioned Latias with Pursuit and Crunch in Tyranitar's case.
  • Partners well with Blissey which can take the special attacks coming from Latias and Palkia. Be mindful of mixed or physical Palkia variants.
  • Defensive Groudon is a good choice to set up Stealth Rock and check physical Dialga, while Blissey can take on specially based Dialga.
[SET]
name: Mono-Attacker
move 1: Surf
move 2: Calm Mind
move 3: Rest
move 4: Sleep Talk
item: Leftovers
nature: Bold
evs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe

Why this set deserves to be on-site:

  • Mono-Attacker Kyogre is the CroCune of the Uber tier, able to set up on many attacks with its immense bulk and become almost indestructible after a few Calm Mind boosts.
  • Very durable with Rest and Sleep Talk keeping Kyogre free of status and happily healthy.
  • This set will eventually beat Blissey through boosting with Calm Mind and healing with the RestTalk combo.
Additional Comments:

  • Very slow set, so there's really no point running much Speed, just enough to beat opposing minimum Speed base 90 Speed Pokemon.
  • 252 HP and 252 Def are used with a Bold nature so that Kyogre's physical bulk is maximized as it boosts its special bulk.
Teammates and Counters:

  • This set has massive problems with Latias and Latios, as they resist Surf and can both Calm Mind up beside Kyogre and maul him with boosted Grass Knots or Thunder.
  • Rayquaza will also be a problem for this set because it nullifies the rain and resists Surf, letting it get a Swords Dance or a Dragon Dance up before rampaging.
  • Choice Scarf Garchomp is an amazing partner because he can handle Rayquaza as it boosts its Speed and can obliterate Latias and Latios with his higher Speed. Garchomp is also immune to Kyogre's Electric-type weakness.
[SET]
name: Offensive Calm Mind
move 1: Calm Mind
move 2: Surf
move 3: Thunder
move 4: Ice Beam
item: Leftovers
nature: Timid / Modest
evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

Why this set deserves to be on-site:

  • Kyogre is very bulky and can run a Calm Mind set effectively, smashing through many of its checks after a single boost.
  • Retains excellent type coverage, but now can take special hits from Pokemon like Palkia far better than without the Calm Mind boost.
Additional Comments:

  • Timid is preferred for being able to at least tie with opposing base 90 Speed Pokemon, but Modest is acceptable for the substantial power boost it brings.
Teammates and Counters:

  • Despite Calm Mind Kyogre's power, Kyogre will have a difficult time getting past Blissey, Latias, and Latios.
  • Blissey is annoying because she can use Toxic, Protect, and Wish to eventually stall Kyogre to death.
  • Careful Tyranitar can switch into any of Latias's or Latios's special attacks bar Grass Knot and either OHKO them with Crunch or OHKO them with Pursuit as they switch out.
  • Scizor can also switch into Latias without Thunder and threaten to OHKO them with U-turn.
[SET]
name: SubCM
move 1: Substitute
move 2: Calm Mind
move 3: Surf
move 4: Ice Beam / Thunder
item: Leftovers
nature: Modest
evs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Spe

Why this set deserves to be on-site:

  • Trades nearly perfect type coverage for the ability to set up on Blissey, a normally amazing check for other variants of Kyogre.
  • Can use Substitute to scout the switch-in, and if it's not Blissey, maim it with an attack or set up as necessary.
Additional Comments:

  • Very slow set, so there's really no point running much Speed, just enough to beat opposing minimum Speed base 90 Speed Pokemon.
  • Max HP EVs to hit 404 HP and be able to set up 101 HP Substitutes, put the rest of the EVs in Special Attack.
  • Because Kyogre is slow enough as it is, run Modest to hit a truckload harder.
Teammates and Counters:

  • Has different counters and teammates depending on the move in the last slot.
  • If you use Ice Beam in the last slot, Kyogre will be unable to break through opposing Kyogre.
  • If you use Thunder in the last slot, Latias and Latios will give Kyogre a lot of trouble
  • With Ice Beam, a Latias of your own or a specially defensive Dialga will make good partners.
  • With Thunder, a strong Pursuit user such as Choice Band Tyranitar should be on your team.
[SET]
name: Thunder Wave Lead
move 1: Thunder Wave
move 2: Surf / Hydro Pump
move 3: Ice Beam
move 4: Thunder
item: Lum Berry
nature: Quiet
evs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA
ivs: 0 Spe

Why this set deserves to be on-site:

  • Very bulky lead that matches up exceptionally well against many other Pokemon in the lead position.
  • Beats Darkrai, Groudon, and fast leads that rely on Speed to be effective.
Additional Comments:

  • 0 Speed EVs and IVs allow you to try and get rain up against Groudon leads who might try and do the same thing.
  • Quiet is used for the added power and because you want Kyogre to be as slow as possible to get the rain up early.
  • Can function excellently outside of the lead position for paralyzing things. If not used in the lead position, 31 Speed IVs should be used and it should use a Modest nature.
Teammates and Counters:

  • This set can help slower sweepers who have problems with Latias and Palkia by paralyzing them, as both are common switch-ins to Kyogre.
  • Swords Dance Garchomp makes a great partner because it appreciates paralyzed Latias, Latios, and Palkia and can take the Electric-type attacks aimed at Kyogre with ease.
  • Dragon Dance Rayquaza will also benefit greatly from having this Kyogre as a partner because a paralyzed Palkia is easily sniped by Rayquaza's Outrage.
[SET]
name: ChestoRest
move 1: Calm Mind
move 2: Rest
move 3: Surf
move 4: Ice Beam / Thunder
item: Chesto Berry
nature: Modest
evs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Although this seems similar to the Mono-Attacker set, ChestoRest Kyogre packs some notable advantages. Instead of setting up Calm Minds over time, this set focuses on getting as many Calm Minds as possible and then Resting. Thanks to Chesto Berry, Kyogre will immediately wake up at full HP, ready to drown anything in its path with STAB Surf. Without the need for Sleep Talk, this Kyogre can afford to run a second attacking move. Ice Beam is generally the best option as it allows Kyogre to stop Rayquaza, Giratina-O, Palkia, and Shaymin-S cold. Thunder can also be used to allow Kyogre to defeat some opposing Calm Mind Kyogre, Manaphy, and Lugia, while also dealing more damage to Palkia than Ice Beam.</p>

[Additional Comments]

<p>This Kyogre appreciates Toxic Spikes support, as well as teammates to prevent Latias and Latios from using Calm Mind alongside Kyogre and consequently beating it with Thunder or Grass Knot. With Toxic Spikes, Kyogre can focus on gaining more Calm Minds against things like Blissey and Palkia while the poison withers them away into nothingness. Forretress sets up Toxic Spikes very easily thanks to its many resistances and draws Fire-type attacks that Kyogre can switch into. Choice Scarf Tyranitar can easily come in on Latias and Latios who lack Grass Knot and Pursuit as they switch or KO them with a fast Crunch. Scizor and Metagross are also solid Pursuit users to consider for the job.</p>

<p>Most boosted Electric-type attacks, such as Choice Specs Thunder from the likes of Dialga, Palkia, and enemy Kyogre will 2HKO this Kyogre even after a Calm Mind boost. Furthermore, physical variants of Dialga and Palkia can 2HKO Kyogre before it can even set up. Garchomp boasts an immunity to Electric-type attacks and can use his powerful STAB Outrage and Earthquake to destroy the aforementioned Pokemon. Garchomp also baits Ice-type attacks that Kyogre can set up on. Physical Dialga and Palkia can be handled easily by Groudon, who can also take Electric-type attacks aimed at Kyogre. Lugia can work as well by setting up Reflect to help Kyogre take physical attacks as it sets up. Both Groudon and Lugia can provide paralysis support to make up for Kyogre's middling Speed, but it's not recommended with Toxic Spikes on the same team.</p>

[Checks & Counters]
<p>The best checks to Kyogre are Latias and Palkia. Quagsire is a great check to Kyogre since it has Water Absorb, an immunity to Thunder and is neutral to Ice Beam. Kyogre is hit by entry hazards because they reduce the damage output of Water Spout, which is a crucial attack to it.</p>
 
I skimmed it, the only change I would like to see is the slashing of Thunder Wave onto the mono attacker alongside Calm Mind. With that

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QC rej approved 1/3
 
Agreeing that Thunder Wave needs more mention, although it might just make more sense for a little paragraph on the Thunder Wave Lead explaining how Thunder Wave Kyogre is still really useful outside of the lead position (Palkia and Latias hate paralysis). Also, maybe there could be a mention about how both Specs Kyogre and the Mono-Attacker are excellent stallbreakers, especially when paired up with Scizor to Pursuit Latias. Personally I'd like to see the Mono Attacker placed before Sub CM, but I guess it doesn't really matter.
 
My 2 cents:
-Mention a bulky Specs spread, something like 232 HP / 252 SpA / 24 Spe Modest to outspeed EDIT: ADAMANT Tyranitar, allowing Kyogre to hit really hard while still being bulky. Most of Pokemon you would want to come in and Water Spout off are slower than this anyway (Scizor, Forretress, etc), so the loss of speed isn't that bad.
- Agreeing with firecape about Thunder Wave on the mono-attacker, but you should also consider Roar, since it allows Kyogre to play the role of a bulky phazer which can recover its health when it needs to.

EDIT: Yeah, Adamant, not Jolly.
 
shrang said:
My 2 cents:
-Mention a bulky Specs spread, something like 232 HP / 252 SpA / 24 Spe Modest to outspeed Jolly Tyranitar, allowing Kyogre to hit really hard while still being bulky. Most of Pokemon you would want to come in and Water Spout off are slower than this anyway (Scizor, Forretress, etc), so the loss of speed isn't that bad.
- Agreeing with firecape about Thunder Wave on the mono-attacker, but you should also consider Roar, since it allows Kyogre to play the role of a bulky phazer which can recover its health when it needs to.
Click to expand...
24 spe doesn't outspeed Jolly Tyranitar, 112 spe does. 24 outspeeds Adamant, which is never used and is considered speed creep.
 
shrang said:
My 2 cents:
-Mention a bulky Specs spread, something like 232 HP / 252 SpA / 24 Spe Modest
Click to expand...

I would actually like to see this as the main spread for the Specs set, but with max HP max SpA, its not like TTar is actually doing anything to Kyogre. The Speed can always be mentioned in AC, and the bulk lets it do awesome things like always surviving an Earthquake from Rock Polish Groudon.
 
I disagree. If kyogre manages a late game sweep (which can be done with some pursuit and para support), it will need max speed. Also, hugendugen and have used a specs ogre as lead with EVs to outrun mew, max satk and the rest dumped in HP and it has worked to great success so I'd like a discussion of whether it should be mentioned as a lead.
 
calze6 said:
I disagree. If kyogre manages a late game sweep (which can be done with some pursuit and para support), it will need max speed. Also, hugendugen and have used a specs ogre as lead with EVs to outrun mew, max satk and the rest dumped in HP and it has worked to great success so I'd like a discussion of whether it should be mentioned as a lead.
Click to expand...
Groudon and Garchomp are typically mid game sweepers, not late game. Paralysis support get everything else, idk why you need max speed. Priority can still hit. Also for the specs ogre lead, it's pointless as Mew isn't that common of a lead, and lead Rayquaza will outrun Kyogre no matter what, every other lead will outspeed or not. It'd be better to maintain bulk, rather than speed.
 
I agree with the spread for Specs, so I changed that and mentioned the speedier one in AC. I'll definitely talk about Thunder Wave around Kyogre more, as I also agree that it's great. I don't think it really deserves a slash anywhere other than the Thunder Wave lead set, though. And yes, I'll definitely talk about the Thunder Wave lead set outside of the lead position.
 
Should probably mention how Rain Dish Ludicolo is the single best counter to Specs since he isn't 2HKO'd by Thunder and can actually punish switch ins with Leech Seed
 
While I agree Ludicolo should be mentioned in the Specs set (Hell any Kyogre set really) as a check, saying it's the "best counter" is really overstating it. It is, like Quagsire, dead-weight against a whole lot of teams. Hell, the best Kyogre counter is Shedinja, who takes absolutely nothing from anything Kyogre uses, lol, but is completely dominated by SR and everything else (But you get my point).

EDIT: By the way, 252/252+ Ludicolo takes 47.25% - 55.77% from Specs Thunder from Modest Kyogre, a guaranteed 2HKO after SR. Yes, you can use Protect, but you're still facing a reasonably likely 2HKO (75.48%) and you also have to remember that Protect fails against Thunder in the rain 30% of the time.
 
Talk about how a very very bulky Kyogre is great with TWave in the non lead position and we're good.

However, I'd actually like to see if its worth its own set.

[SET]
name: Defensive
move 1: Rest
move 2: Sleep Talk
move 3: Surf
move 4: Thunder Wave / Roar / Ice Beam
item: Leftovers
nature: Bold
evs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe

I've used this set before and its great as a check to things such as Ho-Oh, Heatran, and Groudon. It is also a more reliable Darkrai check than the others sets since it now has a 66% chance of stopping set up through Sleep Talk. Kyogre is also a very good user of Roar as it is very bulky and scares the bejeezus out of the most common spinner (Forretress). Ice Beam is also useful as this Kyogre can also defeat SD non LO Garchomp and SD Rayquaza with Ice Beam. (It survives a boosted Outrage from the former and a boosted LO Dragon Claw from the latter at full HP.) Its also a reasonable Jirachi, Scizor, and Metagross counter. (Standard Uber Scizor's CB U-turn only manages 31.7% - 37.4%. Is return, Scizor is 2HKOed by Surf.)

It seems different enough from the CMRest and Lead sets because this focuses on being a pure defensive wall that is designed to counter some things while being very hard to set up on thanks to TWave and/or Roar and powerful double STAB Surfs.

I'd like some feedback on this before I approve this writeup.
 
You think that's worth its own set? I could write that in as an AC paragraph to the Mono-Attacker... Although, you're right, it's not boosting, so it does play completely differently; a RestTalk set is probably not a bad idea, to be fair.
 
I think Modest deserves at the very least a mention on Choice Scarf. You only beat Adamant DDQuaza and tie with Scarf Dialga and other Scarf Kyogre, anyway, and I believe the extra power would be more useful in more situations. To cite a specific example, Modest Ice Beam has a high chance of 2HKOing Latias with Stealth Rock up, while Timid Ice Beam has barely a chance at all.

I also agree with a mention of Ludicolo as a check, although you'd probably be better off with Swift Swim than Rain Dish.
 
Modest Scarf Kyogre could probably go for something along the lines of 64 HP / 252 SpA / 192 Spe, which nets 396 Speed, just enough to beat Mewtwo. There's really no need to go max Speed on a Modest Scarf Kyogre, since almost nothing lies between 396 and 418. Although I prefer running Timid, I could definitely see the merits of Modest, and the extra bulk can be quite helpful too.
 
I was recommended this spread for a Modest Scarf Kyorge in my RMT: 160 HP / 108 SpA / 192 Spe over the conventional 252/252 Timid one. While its similar to the spread Iconic mentioned, the 160 HP Evs provides some notable advantages while 108 SpA EVs sets you at 399 SpA, the same as the aforementioned Timid spread.

For starters, Rock Polish LO Groudon is unable to OHKO you even if you switch into Stealth Rock once unless maximum damage is obtained. [74.3% - 87.7%]. Additionally, while very rare in the Uber tier, +2 Adamant Lucario fails to OHKO with Extremespeed even after switching into Stealth Rock twice. Jolly does even less.

Finally, you are ensured to survive a +2 Adamant Rayquaza's Extremespeed [79.3% - 93.4%]. You even have a small shot to live having switched into Stealth Rock once.
 
shrang said:
While I agree Ludicolo should be mentioned in the Specs set (Hell any Kyogre set really) as a check, saying it's the "best counter" is really overstating it. It is, like Quagsire, dead-weight against a whole lot of teams. Hell, the best Kyogre counter is Shedinja, who takes absolutely nothing from anything Kyogre uses, lol, but is completely dominated by SR and everything else (But you get my point).

EDIT: By the way, 252/252+ Ludicolo takes 47.25% - 55.77% from Specs Thunder from Modest Kyogre, a guaranteed 2HKO after SR. Yes, you can use Protect, but you're still facing a reasonably likely 2HKO (75.48%) and you also have to remember that Protect fails against Thunder in the rain 30% of the time.
Click to expand...

With Rain Dish and Leftovers, Ludicolo survives the SR 2HKO with or without protect and then uses Leech Seed to replenish all its HP. Also I'm pretty sure Thunder does not break through protect since that was a Diamond/Pearl thing but was discontinued in Platinum, Heartgold, and Soulsilver. Also, not a lot of things in ubers like to switch into leech seed so I wouldn't call him completely unviable. There's also something to be said for Ludicolo countering CROgre by OHKOing with a Grass Knot crit (Very likely to get a crit since with Leech Seed, Ludicolo forces Kyogre to sleep immediately after waking up)
 
Meru said:
With Rain Dish and Leftovers, Ludicolo survives the SR 2HKO with or without protect and then uses Leech Seed to replenish all its HP. Also I'm pretty sure Thunder does not break through protect since that was a Diamond/Pearl thing but was discontinued in Platinum, Heartgold, and Soulsilver. Also, not a lot of things in ubers like to switch into leech seed so I wouldn't call him completely unviable. There's also something to be said for Ludicolo countering CROgre by OHKOing with a Grass Knot crit (Very likely to get a crit since with Leech Seed, Ludicolo forces Kyogre to sleep immediately after waking up)
Click to expand...

Thunder does still have a chance to break through Protect, at least in Shoddy Battle anyways.
 
Is this still being worked on?

I have a nitpick here:

[SET]
name: Choice Specs
move 1: Water Spout
move 2: Surf
move 3: Thunder
move 4: Ice Beam
item: Choice Specs
nature: Timid / Modest
evs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Spe
Click to expand...

Since the bulky spread is the primary spread now, it should be probably be Modest only, and the Timid 252 Spe be mentioned in AC. No point running a Timid nature when you have invested in Speed o_0.
 
The choice between Timid and Modest is one of Speed over Power. Being faster is usually more useful since this allows Kyogre to get a speed tie with other 90 Speed Pokemon.
Click to expand...

The bulk and power is more useful anyway. Since the main spread is now for Modest, that sentence should be changed. Also Fireburn's set should be mentioned more. I will probably use Calm Kyogre over Bold, when using that set because Kyogre isn't using Calm Mind. Something like 252 HP / 200 Def / 56 SpD might be worth trying since it allows Kyogre to live Specs Palkia's Thunder easily even after SR and has a chance to survive 2 Thunder from Scarf variants.
 
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