I agree, I've found Kingdra has the raw power to deal with Sableye, not all Kingdra are physical either and Sableye can't take special Kingdra at all.
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Kingdra Discussion
- Thread starter AccidentalGreed
- Start date
I agree, I've found Kingdra has the raw power to deal with Sableye, not all Kingdra are physical either and Sableye can't take special Kingdra at all.
I haven't had any major issues w/ kingdra yet, but I carry 2 bulky waters, both are phazers, ones immune to electric. And I hav togekiss and chandelure to handle the rest of their counters. Milotic w/ d-tail + hazards will chip away at kingdra till its forced to rest a second time. Then just don't give it the chance to wake up. Sub sets are a little harder, but swampert can usually switch in on the sub and roar it out. Although I think empoleon would be the best counter I haven't used it
This is the main problem. Kingdra has different counters depending on his various sets. If you choose the wrong counter, you probably will need to sacrifice something.
Yeah, Empoleon isn't that great of a counter to Kingdra. The Specially Defensive set is 2HKO'd by offensive Kingdra's Outrage and the only thing Empoleon can do to max HP Kingdra is Roar it out as Ice Beam is a 4-5HKO.
I think you're all really overestimating Kingdra personally. Not one of it's base stats break 100 which means its strong but not really strong, fast but not really fast, and bulky but not really bulky. Of course in Rain I have no doubt its deadly but I haven't seen too many Rain teams recently and lots of Kingdra are used outside of Rain.
I think its pretty predictable too actually since all Kingdra are going to run STAB combos. Against offensive teams, which UU consists much of now, you are looking at the type that's being used against you not the category. I mean that offensive teams are going to be scared of you whether you use Outrage or Draco Meteor so they will be sending in a Steel to suck it up or something.
Lastly no matter what Kingdra you run, you are going to be revenge killed by the same stuff (true of most Pokemon but worth mentioning). Scarfgon always outspeed it and ScarfDarmantian/Heracross/Krokodile usually outspeed it and can do massive damage. Sure you won't be OHKOing but if you let Kingdra set up with near perfect health then that's your problem buddy. Of course you won't outspeed it in Rain so easily but I already mentioned that. Not being able to take Extremespeed or Sucker Punch well from Arcanine and stuff really sucks for Kingdra since that just adds to the list of things thathave to be killed, not just weakened, before a sweep.
And Ferroseed still walls Kingdra :3
I think its pretty predictable too actually since all Kingdra are going to run STAB combos. Against offensive teams, which UU consists much of now, you are looking at the type that's being used against you not the category. I mean that offensive teams are going to be scared of you whether you use Outrage or Draco Meteor so they will be sending in a Steel to suck it up or something.
Lastly no matter what Kingdra you run, you are going to be revenge killed by the same stuff (true of most Pokemon but worth mentioning). Scarfgon always outspeed it and ScarfDarmantian/Heracross/Krokodile usually outspeed it and can do massive damage. Sure you won't be OHKOing but if you let Kingdra set up with near perfect health then that's your problem buddy. Of course you won't outspeed it in Rain so easily but I already mentioned that. Not being able to take Extremespeed or Sucker Punch well from Arcanine and stuff really sucks for Kingdra since that just adds to the list of things thathave to be killed, not just weakened, before a sweep.
And Ferroseed still walls Kingdra :3
Empoleon can't do much to Kingdra besides Roaring it and I doubt Ice Beam 3HKOs. I doubt even Slowbro can wall the Dragon Dance variants while if it's not, it could be the Choice Specs variant and attain a swift KO with Draco Meteor. Tangrowth can wall it, I guess, but just like Slowbro, LO or Specs Draco Meteor is a KO. Hidden Power Fire isn't exactly rare (I think; having Dragon Pulse or Surf with DM / Hydro Pump is redundant) so even Ferroseed isn't completely safe of Kingdra's assaults.
Though, I'm not too sure if that's enough to warrant a ban.
Though, I'm not too sure if that's enough to warrant a ban.
Good thing there is sand and Empoleon around.
@the mod NixHex why did you delete my post that said exactly this? All I did was point out an obvious and I am sure accidental mistake by Nysyr who seems to think sand and Empoleon are banned in UU. I know what I am talking about despite a low post count if that's what you're thinking and I challenged the posters here to show why they think Kingdra is as strong as they seem to think it is. I am pretty sure its reasonable to point out flaws in rebuttals.
Kingdra isnt stopped by empoleon at all, all empoleon can do is roar kingdra out and chances are something with a stab fighting ground or electric type move is going to come in. heaven help you if kingdra is the last Pokemon since it just gets up to +6+6 on you and sweeps. Really the only thing that stops bulky ddance rest kingdra are very strong choice Pokemon which get wrecked by the specs set which is another viable and underrated set (stab Draco meteor hurts)
IMO kingdra is probably a definite suspect
IMO kingdra is probably a definite suspect
kingdra is unpredictable, yes i can give you that, but unpredictability alone doesn't call for bans. rain dance kingdra can shit scarfgon over to hell, but rain dance kingdra also has its flaws, for example something like suicune can switch in while kingdra rain dances, tank the draco meteor and roar, then abuse the rain to power up its scalds.
if anything mew is far more unpredictable than kingdra imo
if anything mew is far more unpredictable than kingdra imo
Ferroseed with maximum investment in both defenses is a really good counter to any kingdra in my experience, shouldering even a rain boosted hydro pump. It can then out-stall it easily with leech seed and protect. Chesto-rest sets are tougher as he can just boost to crazy levels. Hitting it repeatedly with bullet seed forces it to rest quite quickly though.
As Ice beam says, suicune is also a solid counter, being able to use rest much better than empoleon thanks to much better physical bulk and calm mind.
As Ice beam says, suicune is also a solid counter, being able to use rest much better than empoleon thanks to much better physical bulk and calm mind.
People keep saying that Empoleon isn't stopping Kingdra, but it does provide a nice buffer and it lets you figure out its set without getting completely maimed.
And once you figure out the set of a pokemon that doesn't have a single stat over 100, it becomes a LOT less threatening
And once you figure out the set of a pokemon that doesn't have a single stat over 100, it becomes a LOT less threatening
Any set that can avoid the Toxic is going to give Empoleon trouble, but thankfully, bulky attacking sets can also threaten Kingdra with Grass Knot (3HKO) before it is in any position to 2HKO. Then there's the Outrage confusion, which might end up turning the game in your favor anyway.
Ferroseed seems like the perfect Kingdra counter, until you realise that its basically setup bait for 99% of the metagame. Running a set of Spikes/Leech Seed(these 2 are virtually mandatory for Ferroseed) means that you only have 2 slots to maneuver around. Things like TWave/Toxic/Protect are great for seed, but one of the best reasons why Ferrothorn is good in ou is the ability to threaten bulky waters through power whip, which Seed lacks.
Another thing is that Ferroseed's attack is a pathetic 50. it's basically as low as togekiss and azumarill, except seed doesn't have an ability that raises attack. Bullet Seed does pittance on Kingdra: if you are investing in max defenses, here's what happens:
5-hit 4 atk bullet seed vs 180/0 Kingdra(chestoresto): 23.7 - 31.2 %
this is shit, when you're seeing that its 5 hits. remotely threatening? fucking shit, its not. unless you use leech seed, in which case its impossible to stall forever because ferroseed is slow as fuck. ferroseed can't stall kingdra out easily unless somehow tspikes is on and kingdra user doesn't have a way to remove tspikes
kingdra is great and all but no, ferroseed is a crap counter at the end of the day. it just sits there... and annoys the fuck out of kingdra. unless its a last-poke situation, kingdra basically wins by swapping to chandelure and spamming random overheats.
Another thing is that Ferroseed's attack is a pathetic 50. it's basically as low as togekiss and azumarill, except seed doesn't have an ability that raises attack. Bullet Seed does pittance on Kingdra: if you are investing in max defenses, here's what happens:
5-hit 4 atk bullet seed vs 180/0 Kingdra(chestoresto): 23.7 - 31.2 %
this is shit, when you're seeing that its 5 hits. remotely threatening? fucking shit, its not. unless you use leech seed, in which case its impossible to stall forever because ferroseed is slow as fuck. ferroseed can't stall kingdra out easily unless somehow tspikes is on and kingdra user doesn't have a way to remove tspikes
kingdra is great and all but no, ferroseed is a crap counter at the end of the day. it just sits there... and annoys the fuck out of kingdra. unless its a last-poke situation, kingdra basically wins by swapping to chandelure and spamming random overheats.
Well I hope you realize I was joking when I said Ferroseed was a way to deal with it, although it does beat out the non-DD sets easily with Leech Seed. In any case I honestly fail to see how Kingdra is so hard to counter, any bulky Water gives it major trouble and if Kingdra wants to lock itself into Outrage then it's generally going to get revenge killed or something will tank the Outrage. If it wants to use Draco Meteor then it gets one real shot at doing damage after which its SpA becomes crap for a sweeper/wallbreaker/attack. I think Empoleon is really a decent counter to Kingdra since it's not going to be 2HKO by anything, can phaze it out, and can threaten a burn.
So maybe ferroseed isn't the best counter BUT, leech seed is still 1/8 of his health (1/4 with protect if he doesn't DD) every turn, plus the aproximately 1/5 of damage from seed bomb then, and in one turn, he's lost nearly half his HP if you protect well. Yes, he can get a couple of boosts, but even after resting (which can be forced even earlier if you have toxic). Kingdra is tough to counter, but ferroseed is still tanking those +2 outrages and very irritatingly constantly sapping away at that HP. It's a slow counter, and not guarenteed, but it's as close as you're going to get to countering kingdra without phazing.
First off you would be using Bullet Seed which does diddly squat to Kingdra. It would probably fear a max powered Gyro Ball more actually. Also, as far as I am aware counters are supposed to be able to switch in without real fear for itself and either kill or force the opponent out. Ferro looks more like setup fodder unless it uses Thunder Wave in which case it still couldn't kill Kingdra, just put a serious crimp in it. I suppose, it is though, one of the only ways to deal with DD Kingdra on the switch without phazing although why wouldn't you get a phazer?
It's alright if I post a set here right?
Name: Block, Dance, Block, Dance, Sweep
Move 1: Protect
Move 2: Dragon Dance
Move 3: Outrage
Move 4: Disable
Ability: Swift Swim
Nature: Adamant
Item: Lum Berry
EV's: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
This is a set I've been toying with for a while, it's kind of inspired by the sub+disable Gengar set. The basic idea is thanks to Kingdra's typing there's only one type that hits it for super effective damage and only a few neutral attacks that do a lot of damage. With that in mind, this set allows Kingdra to scout those attacks and status moves out with Protect then block them the next turn with Disable due to it's superb speed in the rain. From there your opponent either switches or stays in to use weaker attacks that Kingdra can easily sponge. Either way you get a free turn/s to set up Dragon Dance. If they do switch, just block them again. Makes it real easy to get a DD or two in, which means you won't have to worry about keeping the rain up to boost Kingdra's speed; and it completely shuts down choice sets. You could run Substitute over Protect for a more permanent solution for status moves, but taking out a fourth of Kingdra's Hp to block a powerful attack will only make it harder for it to withstand other weaker attacks later. The Lum Berry is to heal any status's that make it through and has the added bonus of keeping the confusion from Outrage from interrupting your sweep if it doesn't get used. The EV's maximize attack so it takes fewer DD's to blow through Steel types, though it can make it harder to soak up attacks for getting in more DD's at times, so I'm still trying to find that perfect EV balance between Hp and Attack. The set can be countered by Steels and phazers just like other Kingdra's, but it can also face some problems if your opponent gets wise to it and either uses the turn you use Protect to throw up a sub, set up, or use a weaker attack that is pointless to disable. In that case, your best bet is to have ready counters for each of those scenarios so you can switch accordingly after scouting out what they're planning.
Name: Block, Dance, Block, Dance, Sweep
Move 1: Protect
Move 2: Dragon Dance
Move 3: Outrage
Move 4: Disable
Ability: Swift Swim
Nature: Adamant
Item: Lum Berry
EV's: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
This is a set I've been toying with for a while, it's kind of inspired by the sub+disable Gengar set. The basic idea is thanks to Kingdra's typing there's only one type that hits it for super effective damage and only a few neutral attacks that do a lot of damage. With that in mind, this set allows Kingdra to scout those attacks and status moves out with Protect then block them the next turn with Disable due to it's superb speed in the rain. From there your opponent either switches or stays in to use weaker attacks that Kingdra can easily sponge. Either way you get a free turn/s to set up Dragon Dance. If they do switch, just block them again. Makes it real easy to get a DD or two in, which means you won't have to worry about keeping the rain up to boost Kingdra's speed; and it completely shuts down choice sets. You could run Substitute over Protect for a more permanent solution for status moves, but taking out a fourth of Kingdra's Hp to block a powerful attack will only make it harder for it to withstand other weaker attacks later. The Lum Berry is to heal any status's that make it through and has the added bonus of keeping the confusion from Outrage from interrupting your sweep if it doesn't get used. The EV's maximize attack so it takes fewer DD's to blow through Steel types, though it can make it harder to soak up attacks for getting in more DD's at times, so I'm still trying to find that perfect EV balance between Hp and Attack. The set can be countered by Steels and phazers just like other Kingdra's, but it can also face some problems if your opponent gets wise to it and either uses the turn you use Protect to throw up a sub, set up, or use a weaker attack that is pointless to disable. In that case, your best bet is to have ready counters for each of those scenarios so you can switch accordingly after scouting out what they're planning.