Kangaskhanite Tiering Discussion [+Demographics Poll Added to OP]

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McMeghan

McMeghan

Dreamcatcher
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The Gengarite left us one week ago and now is time to discuss another controversial Item of the XY OU metagame: The Kangashkanite.

As you guys can guess, this is where discussion on the tiering status of the Kangaskhanite will take place. I implore each and every one of you to add to the discussion with well thought out reasoning describing why you feel that the Kangashkanite should be Uber or OU. This topic will be left open until whatever point we feel the discussion has reached its conclusion.

As a reminder: if a ban does occur after this discussion, it'll be effective in both Pre-Bank and Pokebank OU.


Chou Edit:

Adding a Poll by Haunter's Permission-- Please give us your feedback guys.

https://qtrial.qualtrics.com/SE/?SID=SV_diouyY94YqVOuRn
 
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oh god we're in for a ride.

please read all the posts in the thread before you post yourself. I -really- don't want to see the same tired posts over and over like I did in the Gengarite thread.

edit: I'd like actual arguments too and not just "lol it's so broken" I left rey's because he was first though. :toast:
 
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You know something isn't right when this bullshit Pokémon makes ExtremeKiller Arceus feel deadweight in UBERS. Kill Giratina or lol lugia and literally nothing can stop Jolly +2 Mega Kangaskhan. It's actually way worse than Gen 5 Excadrill.
 
Fennekin said:
You know something isn't right when this bullshit Pokémon makes ExtremeKiller Arceus feel deadweight in UBERS. Kill Giratina or lol lugia and literally nothing can stop Jolly +2 Mega Kangaskhan. It's actually way worse than Gen 5 Excadrill.
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I don't know how it does in Ubers, but in Pre-bank it's kinda easy to take out. Anyways, I don't have any argument ready as of yet, but to me it's just a very strong pokémon, like many more.
 
Alright so I feel like this one could actually use more time, even though I'm leaning Uber. I understand the arguments that have been made on irc and such but I feel there is still adaption that could happen to the meta, meaning I don't find Kanga strategically limiting. It seems to me that people haven't been running all that they could to stop Kanga that would still be relevant in the metagame and thats pretty much THE reason I feel Kanga can wait for Round 1. I expect better players to ladder when Suspect starts and that, along with SPL, is when this adaption would happen. It's easier to make this decision in a better environment.

How did Kanga get put up to the chopping block before Mega Lucario?

AND FOR THE LOVE OF GOD PEOPLE POST IN PR INSTEAD, WE ALL KNOW THIS THREAD IS GOING TO HELL
 
Judejew said:
I don't know how it does in Ubers, but in Pre-bank it's kinda easy to take out. Anyways, I don't have any argument ready as of yet, but to me it's just a very strong pokémon, like many more.
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I never had any issues with Gen 4 Salamence because I always liked Mamoswine. Dare I say it was even kinda easy to take out? I highly encourage you to run PuPunch/Return/Earthquake/Crunch or Sucker Punch and enjoy your free Ubers ladder.
 
Other than Sableye, is there anything in the game that Mega Kangaskhan CAN'T 2HKO in common battle conditions? The only reason Sableye is even a check at all is because it has a priority move that halves its attack. The icing on the cake is that it has strong priority, so checking it offensively can almost be as difficult as checking it defensively.
 
The last few posts in the Kangashan topic itself has a huge discussion going on about M-Kanga. The thing is way too strong for OU as its late-game sweeping potential is completely ridiculous. No real safe switch in, either. Personally, I would have banned this before M-Gengar. Because, really, even M-Gengar is fodder to M-Kanga. I know, I have tried... doesn't work out very often... >.<
 
Unlike Mega Gengar, Mega Kangaskhan is a threat not for it's support opportunities, but instead it's sweeping and damage capabilities.

Despite it's "underwhelming" 125 attack and 100 speed with no item to boost it, Parental bond functions as a sub / sash / sturdy breaking choice band that lets you choose moves. This also doubles additional effects, turning Power up punch into a 60 BP swords dance.

In addition to it's amazing offensive possibilities, Mega Kangaskhan also doubles Seismic Toss's damage, doing a whopping 200 damage, meaning pretty much anything less than 100 Base HP (with max EVs) will be 2HKOed. This allows it to build defensively, as Seismic toss doesn't work off of it's offenses.

Bottom line is, your team needs to run something for mega Kanga. You need to either burn it, paralyze it (and hope for hax) or revenge kill it with something faster. Access to Sucker punch makes it difficult to revenge kill, as even a resisted +2 sucker punch deals a lot of damage.

While I may agree that it's possibly too early to ban out mega Kanga, I would have no qualms with him going to ubers.
 
I'll just drop this here for reference in case people start saying that its easy to wall or something dumb like that, feel free to copy-paste and stuff.
sidakarya said:
Since I've nothing better to do at the moment, here are some funny calculations involving M-Khan and the hardiest walls in all of Pokémon, Ubers included. I think they speak for themselves.

+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 343-405 (81.8 - 96.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

-1 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 248 HP / 176 Def Landorus-T: 163-193 (42.7 - 50.6%) -- 94.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 248 HP / 176 Def Landorus-T: 364-429 (95.5 - 112.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+1 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Sucker Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 234-276 (73.3 - 86.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (a likely KO after Scrappy PuP, and you can't do anything back)

+1 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Dusclops: 168-201 (59.3 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (all it can do is WoW in return, in which case...)
+1 252+ Atk Parental Bond burned Mega Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Dusclops: 84-100 (29.6 - 35.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock (...it probably kills you through the burn. Fantastic.)

252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Fire Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 153-180 (45.9 - 54%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 151-178 (45.3 - 53.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (holy fuck are you shitting me)

+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Fire Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mega Aggron: 204-240 (59.4 - 69.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mega Aggron: 270-318 (78.7 - 92.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (Very likely KO after PuP. keep in mind, M-Aggron isn't usually EV'd like this. The thing that can probably stop M-Mawile flat-out loses to this thing.)

+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Deoxys-D: 274-324 (90.4 - 106.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Deoxys-D: 288-339 (95 - 111.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 180-213 (35.7 - 42.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 267-315 (53 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Parental Bond burned Mega Kangaskhan Sucker Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 133-157 (26.4 - 31.2%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 248 HP / 176+ Def Lugia: 177-210 (42.6 - 50.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 248 HP / 176+ Def Lugia: 354-417 (85.3 - 100.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 248 HP / 176+ Def Lugia: 337-397 (81.2 - 95.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (excuse me?!)

252+ Atk Mega Kangaskhan Power-Up Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arceus: 102-122 (22.9 - 27.4%) -- possible 9HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (accounting for the +1 in the second hit)
252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arceus: 171-202 (38.6 - 45.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arceus-Normal: 339-400 (76.5 - 90.2%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (for what it's worth, this same Arceus can survive +2 Play Rough from M-Mawile and retaliate.)

252+ Atk Mega Kangaskhan Power-Up Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arceus-Rock: 102-122 (22.9 - 27.4%) -- possible 9HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (accounting for the +1 in the second hit)
+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arceus-Rock: 441-522 (99.5 - 117.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arceus-Rock: 178-210 (40.1 - 47.4%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

And yeah, it's mindless autopilot sweeping of the most disgusting kind. M-Gengar was harder to use than this thing.
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And all Smogon's people said "BA-AN!" (I know bad pun I no do the funny good)
 
Well, i'm actually both sides on this thread, but I'm going to have to say keep it in OU.

Now, although it's able to easily destroy many sweepers (especially mega alakazam, gengar (when it existed) and other less popular threats like Chandelure and Starmie), and able to power itself up with Power-Up Punch, which is like a Swords Dance boost. Now, this might be the case for many situations, and then it continues to sweep, which can change how the game runs.

But, my reason for why it should retain in OU is simply because it does not have the bulk to live out attacks. Popular threats like Sableye can easily break it down, being Immune to Fighting and Normal, and can burn it, rendering it useless. It is also very vulnerable to status such as paralysis, but especially burn, which can easily break it down. Popular walls like Ferrothorn can also take it down, as, when it is holding a rocky helmet, can take away 25% of its health in one go, which can then proceed to Leech Seed it and just spam protect. Although the Power-Up Punch can dent Ferrothorn, it won't go very far with attacks. Ghost Types, especially Aegislash, can break it down, with King's Shield weakening Kang when Crunch is used, and then can proceed to live a Sucker Punch and then return with Sacred Sword. It's just not bulky enough for the metagame, but its offensive capabilities are endless. Most pokemon with Prankster or a Ghost typing can mainly destroy Kangaskhan.

That's why I believe that it should stay in OU. It can dish it out, but it can't take it.

By the way, I don't run mega Kang, due to the easiness of its capability.
 
Quick reminder: Facade mega ignores the attack drop from Burn, so a healthy Sableye is the only way to go, excluding bruteforcing with Technician Mach Punch.
 
-Nitro- said:
Unlike Mega Gengar, Mega Kangaskhan is a threat not for it's support opportunities, but instead it's sweeping and damage capabilities.

Despite it's "underwhelming" 125 attack and 100 speed with no item to boost it, Parental bond functions as a sub / sash / sturdy breaking choice band that lets you choose moves. This also doubles additional effects, turning Power up punch into a 60 BP swords dance.

In addition to it's amazing offensive possibilities, Mega Kangaskhan also doubles Seismic Toss's damage, doing a whopping 200 damage, meaning pretty much anything less than 100 Base HP (with max EVs) will be 2HKOed. This allows it to build defensively, as Seismic toss doesn't work off of it's offenses.

Bottom line is, your team needs to run something for mega Kanga. You need to either burn it, paralyze it (and hope for hax) or revenge kill it with something faster. Access to Sucker punch makes it difficult to revenge kill, as even a resisted +2 sucker punch deals a lot of damage.

While I may agree that it's possibly too early to ban out mega Kanga, I would have no qualms with him going to ubers.
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70, actually. I'm pretty sure the second hit already gets the boost.

On the other hand, we have no idea about seismic toss yet.
 
The sweeping and wall break abilities that mega kanga posses are nothing short of ridiculous.

Power up punch offers chip away damage against switch ins and after that it can OHKO nearly anything bulky with return, and floor anything fast with sucker punch. Couple this with kanga's insane bulk, and you have something that is impossible to counter and damn near impossible to check. Many teams are struggling so badly with kanga they offer a combination of many checks to try and beat kanga, leading to rocky helmet spam, and general over preparation. With just 1 set between 4 moves kanga completely sweeps almost all of OU. A wall breaker set with seismic toss is also ridiculous, 2hkoing ANYTHING with less than ~400 hp after rocks, and anything with a lot more with a rock weak. a huge portion of the meta again is demolished by this set.

It forces huge preparation, defeats countless play styles, and is fuckin broken. Sableye is the only actual counter to the two common sets.
 
Judejew said:
70, actually. I'm pretty sure the second hit already gets the boost.

On the other hand, we have no idea about seismic toss yet.
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We already know that parental bond makes seismic does 200 damage because we skill swapped parental bond onto another mon with seismic toss to test. On the other hand, seismic toss is a 3rd gen tutor move so it is possible (albeit unlikely) that gamefreak will pull some bullshit like pokebank'd mons can't megaevolve.
 
Unggoy14 said:
IMO, this thing has enough counters to allow it to stay in OU. WOW, Substitute, Ghosts, anything with a damaging ability + rock helmet, etc. Plus, I don't see Mega Kangaskhan doing well in Ubers at all, making this sort of "Limbo" Pokemon were nobody CAN use it in OU, and people just DON'T use it in Ubers.
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Subs are NOT reliable enough and neither are Ghosts. In my experience, I subbed with Mega-Gengar, got CRUNCHED without it boosting with PuP or Rocks up, and I was down to 8 HP, and even the, that was probably luck. If my Focus Blast missed the next turn, I would have lost. The same problem would happen with Sucker Punch. You sub, first SP misses, you try an attack later, you get OHKOed if it is boosted or if you took rock damage because SP will break the Sub and then break your face open. Will-O-Wisp from Sableye is all that can really stop it at all, and one half-decent counter that cannot switch in on a Crunch, does not mean anything overall.
 
Mega-Khan has two, arguably three viable sets. It is crippled by status. It is predictable. It is vulnerable to the majority of priority. That being said, if its checks are taken off the field early in the match, it is likely GG. Has it centralized the meta-game? Rocky Helmet + Iron Barbs/Rough Skin, or Rocky Helmet Skarmory in general shut it down. Pre-Bank usage of Ferro/Skarm is high. Even higher in Post-Bank. Additionally, around 50% of Ferro run Rocky Helmet. Seems telling.

It struggles against bulky Gourgeist and Trevenant if it doesn't carry Crunch. But why shouldn't it? On the right team, with the right support, Kangaskhan cuts through the opposition like a hot-knife through butter. The same can be said for many powerful Pokes, including Mega Lucario. Mega-Khan differs insofar that it breaks Sturdy and Sashes.

An argument against other Mega Evos, who are perhaps more niche is: Why waste the Mega Stone when their normal set is almost as viable? This doesn't fly with Kangaskhan. It is only viable in OU with its stone. This makes reading the enemy team easier if you encounter a Kanga in team preview. On the other hand, your evolution is far from wasted - Khan has few rivals as a physical threat. We can note that post-Bank carries some faster threats, but Kanga has enough bulk that it is almost a guaranteed kill, on top of forcing the opponent's hand. It either cleans up, or leaves a big enough dent mid-game for someone else to do so. Sucker Punch to deal with its mediocre speed/vulnerability to Sticky Web can be played around... but with proper support from Scolipede or a priority Tailwind from Talonflame, Mega-Khan compensates for its speed tier without issue.

Imo, it isn't broken by itself. Considering what it can do when it is supported correctly... the item deserves a ban. Atm a viable OU team must be built with Kang in mind in particular.
 
While I feel like M-Kangha is very predictable, since he always run the same 3 moves, leaving room for either Fake Out, EQ or Crunch(Ice Punch Post-Bank), after finding out the fourth move, one can dismantle him, on the other hand there isn't many reliable checks for him, Sableye can WoW him, Ferrothorn hurts him very bad, Phazing requires you to take a hit(which at +2 can be lethal and is only a temporary measure).
Not everybody should be obligated to play a check for M-Kangha just to prevent being sweeped solely by him. I feel he deserves to go uber
 
Unggoy14 said:
IMO, this thing has enough counters to allow it to stay in OU. WOW, Substitute, Ghosts, anything with a damaging ability + rock helmet, etc. Plus, I don't see Mega Kangaskhan doing well in Ubers at all, making this sort of "Limbo" Pokemon were nobody CAN use it in OU, and people just DON'T use it in Ubers.
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WoW is not a counter to kanga, there are a very small profile of pokemon that outspeed and pull a wisp off, or can take a +2 attack from kanga and burn it, something such as gengar can not safely switch in when kanagaskhan packs crunch, and unless you are using garbage pokemon like dusclops, you can only check with a burn. Even after that it will kill what has burned it, and after that it sure isn't dead, a +2 burned mega kanga is dangerous, and it can be healed later. You can quell khan's wrath, but that is certainly no counter. Rocky helmet chomp and ferrothorn arent counters. They shave a lot of health off of kanga, but both are 2hko'd by typical kangaskhan sets of pup -> sucker punch/fire punch. Khan is still in fighting shape at that point and can sweep you with +2 sucker and return, kangaskhan only needs a lot of hp to sweep when you have faster priority than it, or a faster sucker punc resist. These are few and far between, though quite a few exist viably in OU. If you have to stack rocky helmets, and strong priority just to bring down kanga, that's massive preparation that you have to play close to your chest when you see a kanga, giving the opponent a lot of leeway to try and lure your kanga checks out, or take advantage of this. Substitute seems silly to even suggest with kanga's ability, not only does it hit through subs on the second attack easily, its sucker punch can even hit through subs and beat weakened pokemon that attempt to sub the nattack it. Finally, all ghosts but a small number, the only really viable one in OU being sableye are demolished by crunch in 2 hits. None of these counters are counters, but thing you have to stack on top of each other to check kanga.
 
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Sorry Treecko, I'll try to make my post more informative. Ok, so starting over:

I believe Mega Kangaskhan is banned because of just how versatile and powerful it is. Not even one of the greatest Physical walls out there can win:
+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 151-178 (45.2 - 53.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
This thing is absurdly powerful, 2HKOing a majority of the tier, while OHKOing a margin of it. But, the argument comes back that a lot of things can 2HKO the tier, so what's the point of Mega Khan? Well, it has bulk, that alone differentiates itself from stuff such as Lucario, who can also bring the tier down. MegaKhan also sits at that wonderful stat of 100 Speed, allowing to hit a very nice Speed tier. I'd also like to bring up the fact it gets an un-Tauntable Swords Dance which is very similar to Brick Break, and a Choice Band boost, but with the ability to change moves. This thing has a combo of nice Speed, enormous power, great capabilities, and bulk, this all makes it an Uber Pokemon, in my opinion. My vote goes for Kangaskhanite For Ubers.
 
Haruno said:
We already know that parental bond makes seismic does 200 damage because we skill swapped parental bond onto another mon with seismic toss to test. On the other hand, seismic toss is a 3rd gen tutor move so it is possible (albeit unlikely) that gamefreak will pull some bullshit like pokebank'd mons can't megaevolve.
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Seismic Toss will do only 150 in Lvl 100 battles and 75 in Lvl 50 battles.

I believe that Mega-Kanga should stay in OU. Unlike cousin Mega Gengar, you actually can switch out into another Pokemon, and your not locked into any Shadow Tags. If you play your cards right and your team is built to counter a significant amount of the new and old threats of OU, I don't see why he shouldn't be allowed in this tier. Sure, you can say "omg he's broken he hits twice", and yeah his Atk is pretty high, but with the right support there are ways around him. Every team should be prepared for strong hitters, not just M-Kanga. Ghosts, Substitute, Rough Skin/Iron Barbs, Rocky Helmet, PP Stalling, Status (burn/toxic/twave/sleep) and even Entry Hazards easily deal with M-Kanga. If you have a problem with Mega Kanga, I suggest you spend a little bit more time in the teambuilder tab.
 
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