HMs

Should HMs be kept in Pokémon?

  • Yes and keep them the same

    Votes: 4 5.6%

  • Yes but make the moves more powerful

    Votes: 21 29.6%

  • Yes but make the moves less powerful

    Votes: 1 1.4%

  • Yes but let you forget them at will

    Votes: 33 46.5%

  • Yes, but other (please specify)

    Votes: 7 9.9%

  • No, delete them completely

    Votes: 5 7.0%
  • Total voters
    71
Celever

Celever

the bear becomes the ringleader
is a Forum Moderatoris a Top Community Contributor
HMs, or Hidden Machines, are moves in Pokémon which help you with terrain. For example, HM01 Cut lets you chop down trees and clear paths, and HM04 Surf lets you travel over bodies of water. HMs have also always been really quite controversial. People say "why should I waste a move slot just so that I can move on with my adventure?" and sometimes even "why do I have to replace a team member so that I can Surf, Dive or use Waterfall?". Other people say "if I could delete them whenever they would be fun" and even more people say "they should become less necessary!" People also say that things like Cut and Rock Smash are too weak (40 BP). What is your stance on HMs?

I'll post my thoughts later.

Please answer the poll, and enjoy! ^_^
 
I have to say i don't mind HMs much if they aren't used all the time.

In generation 3 and 4 HMs were used alot during the game which at times would kind of ruin the experience because you needed to deposit half your team just to get though something like victory road ( i don't care about victory road when half my team is stuck in a box just because i need a Ratticate to use strenght ). However generation 5 and 6 don't have a buttload of HMs in them which makes it more fun because you can use your team through the whole game without depositing one because a boulder is in the way. As long as they keep it like in generation 5 where there weren't many HMs ( Generation 4 had 8 HMs and generation 5 had only 6 ) and the HMs were mainly used for extra secrets i am fine with it. But if they do it again like in generation 3 or 4 where you need to have a waterfall Wailord, a Ratticate with cut and strenght and a Lanturn with flash just to get through one cave then it can kind of ruin some otherwise great locations like mt. coronet and victory road.

Also they should really make the HMs stronger because right now the only decent in game HMs are surf, waterfall and fly ( dive and strenght are sort of usable ). Cut is just a weak normal attack like tackle and scratch while flash is HM mud slap, rock smash's secondary effect is good but the attack is just too weak even after a few defense drops. If i would have made the HMs they would have looked something like this:
Fly, surf, dive and waterfall are good as they are.
Flash: Lowers accuracy by 2 stages instead of one.
Cut: A base 75 power normal attack with 10% chance to lower defense.
Strenght: A base 80 power rock move instead of normal move.
Rock smash: I have no idea maybe a dual rock fighting move?

That is my opinion about HMs and i hope game freak keeps HMs like they are in generation 6 instead of giving us 20 HMs you need to use every route.
 
I really like the idea used in Pokemon Zeta Omnicron, which is that you have to use a HM at least once, but after that, you can get a HM item which basically is a key item that does the same thing as a HM. That way your pokemon can use Hms worth it, like surf and waterfall, but you can delete useless ones like Rock smash. It also stops you needing a hm slave.
 
HMs are a really natural-feeling way of preventing the player from going ahead in the game until he's done the necessary plot advancement. Let's see what GameFreak had to resort to in generation V when they cut down on in-game HM use: "We're dancing for no reason. Some day we'll stop dancing for no reason."

HMs did the job much better.
 
I also agree that HM's are a bit natural once you get used to them, but the fact that places like victory road and other caves aren't accessible without flash and strength is very sad. Because of that you need to teach a member strength and surf just to access some parts of the game. Surf and fly are okay because they can be used by poke'mon that have stab in the respective types. But strength, according to me is a very useless move. It is normal type which makes no sense and to top it off, it doesn't even have a secondary effect. Gen 5 took a great step towards decreasing the amount of HM's especially with reducing the use of cut, which I never really used in B2W2 except for victory road. I agree with letting your poke'mon forget HM's at will just like a TM. This will make people more likely to give these moves to their party poke'mon. Also it was another innovation to make Flash a TM rather than a HM like in previous games. Other than letting you forget them at will, I don't see anything to change about HM's.
 
Snotjoch said:
I have to say i don't mind HMs much if they aren't used all the time.

In generation 3 and 4 HMs were used alot during the game which at times would kind of ruin the experience because you needed to deposit half your team just to get though something like victory road ( i don't care about victory road when half my team is stuck in a box just because i need a Ratticate to use strenght ). However generation 5 and 6 don't have a buttload of HMs in them which makes it more fun because you can use your team through the whole game without depositing one because a boulder is in the way. As long as they keep it like in generation 5 where there weren't many HMs ( Generation 4 had 8 HMs and generation 5 had only 6 ) and the HMs were mainly used for extra secrets i am fine with it. But if they do it again like in generation 3 or 4 where you need to have a waterfall Wailord, a Ratticate with cut and strenght and a Lanturn with flash just to get through one cave then it can kind of ruin some otherwise great locations like mt. coronet and victory road.
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Yeah, I agree with pretty much everything here. I like how since Generation 5, they cut down on the number of times you need HMs to progress, and I like how in X and Y they mostly are used to cover up the path to extra items and TMs and stuff. In fact, I actually enjoy that. Flash is the only one that kinda ruined it for me, but it's pretty predictable when you will need to use Flash (mainly in caves and stuff) and you only have to use it once, so it's not that bad I guess.

Also they should really make the HMs stronger because right now the only decent in game HMs are surf, waterfall and fly ( dive and strenght are sort of usable ). Cut is just a weak normal attack like tackle and scratch while flash is HM mud slap, rock smash's secondary effect is good but the attack is just too weak even after a few defense drops. If i would have made the HMs they would have looked something like this:
Fly, surf, dive and waterfall are good as they are.
Flash: Lowers accuracy by 2 stages instead of one.
Cut: A base 75 power normal attack with 10% chance to lower defense.
Strenght: A base 80 power rock move instead of normal move.
Rock smash: I have no idea maybe a dual rock fighting move?
Click to expand...

I like this idea too, and most of your changes are reasonable buffs. I have no idea why Game Freak decided to buff Tackle...it is now objectively superior to Cut, just making Cut even more useless (even though it was pretty much completely useless anyway). As for Rock Smash, I think the best way to buff it is to just make it always lower Defense. In this case, it can be seen as somewhat like the inverse of Power-Up Punch. You'd be using it as if it was a status move because it has a guaranteed chance, even though it is an attack.

Strength is actually the most interesting one because 80 Base Power is good, its only real issue is that it is a normal move, and therefore is outclassed by Return and Double-Edge which are way stronger. However, I think if you change the typing of it, it'd be a little too good, considering it has such wide distribution. If we change it to Rock like you said, then it is stronger than Rock Slide and with perfect accuracy, but it loses out on the flinch chance. Some suggest it should be made a Fighting move, in that case it becomes an extremely widely distributed Fighting-type attack and would also be really good. Perhaps giving it a secondary effect and keeping it Normal-type would be the best way to change it, as that makes Body Slam commonly used despite being much weaker than Return. I'd go for a high chance to lower the opponent's Defense, if that doesn't seem too "redundant" with Rock Smash.
 
I always thought it would be better if you could teach your pokemon 'overworld' skills that were separate from their attacks. Like if you needed 'strength' to move boulders you'd have to go find some black belt dude who would tutor your pokemon and then they'd be able to move boulders whenever they wanted. They could make it so you'd have to complete some sort of boulder minigame in order to learn the skill if just talking to the dude was too easy. You want your Squirtle to be able to carry you across the sea? He's gonna have to navigate my swimming course to learn that. You want to be able to fly on your Charizard? Send him through my ring course! That way you don't have to sacrifice one of your precious four moveslots but you still have to reach a certain point in-game to unlock the skills. You can keep the old HM moves but just make them TMs and have no overworld use.
 
I think that the only flaw with HMs is that they can't be forgotten normally. Just prevent me from making my pokemon forget Surf while I'm surfing on it, and Dive while I'm diving with it, and any similar cases with other HMs to be introduced. Most pokemon would know at least one TM move, so it won't harm you to temporarily take up a moveslot with an HM.
 
I think HMs could have been done much better. For example, what if, instead of requiring one specific move (say, Rock Smash) to break rocks, if you have the required gym badge, you could get around it in many different ways? For example, you could go old school and smash the rock using Rock Smash, Close Combat, HJK, etc. You could also climb over it using a move such as Vine Whip, Rock Climb, Fly, or Psychic. Or, you could just use Dig to go under it. Same with the trees/thorn bushes: Any slash attack (Cut, Night Slash, Slash, Psycho Cut, Sacred Sword), or any damaging Fire attack should be able to remove the bushes iff (sic) you have the required badge. (Needing badges to do overworld tasks could be justified with the idea that your Pokemon won't obey you outside of battle unless you have the right badges.)

This concept of having many ways to do a simple task, in my opinion, would increase immersion and, in general, make the games more fun. Because let's be honest, who wouldn't like the idea of, when faced with a thorny bush, ordering your Infernape/Arcanine/Magmortar/whatever to completely incinerate the bush and everything around it?
 
A few HMs are fairly useful in battle and should be kept even if it's just to restrict progression before a gym is beat. They should make the moves stronger but possibly allow a way around needing an HM slave.

Cut- Maybe if it was a steel attack it would have some better use. Or better yet, just get some hedge clippers mid game.

Fly- Maybe a whistle that calls a bird pokemon from a friend. It's ok in a couple trainer battles but against smart real people it's more of a risk giving a free turn/switch.

Surf- I actually think this should stay as it is. It encourages variety and isn't half bad as an attack. No one wants to get wet when traveling to the next gym or when hunting TMs. Still a boat wouldn't be a bad addition late game.

Strength- Everyone needs more puzzles in their life but as a normal attack this isn't worth keeping. Couldn't there be a better way to move large boulders into holes?

Flash- Getting better now that it can be removed and not required. Caves are going to be dark so it's an understandable limitation but a Flashlight or Light Orb would be much more accepted.

Waterfall- Gotta keep the scum out of Victory Road some how. I guess you could get a boat upgrade at some point.

Defog- More useful now than it ever was in D/P/P, how many times was it foggy? Like 2-3 times?

Rock Smash- Cut but for rocks, just needs more power to be a decent fighting attack. Pickaxe away.

Rock Climb- Ok attack power (90) but would be better if it wasn't normal. Could still be replaced by a climbers kit.

I would like to see more HMs and creative uses of pokemon in the overworld as long asa they can still be used in battle or later in the game you get an item replacement for item hunting.
 
Some HM are cool, not all of them.

Cut- Make it a 70 Grass type attack.
Fly- Perfect HM
Surf- Perfect HM
Strength- Good HM. Maybe Fighting type
Flash- Make it a 60 Electric type attack.
Waterfall- Perfect HM
Defog- On PS, it's good. In game, terrible. Add some damage when there is no hazards on floor like 70 ?
Rock Smash- Good HM. It was up in Gen 5. Could be upped to 60 attack power
Rock Climb- Good HM. Why not a rock type move ?
 
Okay, taking a step back from just moaning "oh I have to waste all these moveslots on low-powered moves just to advance through the game", the problem with HMs is basically this:

It's 1998 and Pokemon Red and Blue, which were unexpectedly popular in Japan, have been given a worldwide release, and they take the world by storm. You buy a cartridge to see what all the fuss is about, and set off on your adventure. You get given your own monster, battle wild animals and it's all going great. And soon, you stumble across a tree on Route 2. On the far side there's a nice shiny item ball. What's in it? Who knows? (This is back when Dogpile was the world's favourite search engine, so no chance of finding out online like you might today.) But you can't get there yet! Curses! You'll have to come back later. It was partly these tantalising glimpses of your journey to come that made the experience so compelling. And when you rubbed the SS Anne Captain's back and you could finally get there, you'd have the satisfaction of being able to pick up those items that the game had been dangling in front of your face for hours.

Fast forward fifteen years and five generations. Several things have changed in the franchise. (1) The games have become more linear, and (2) movesets have expanded, leaving less space for the HM moves. Point (1) leaves HMs feeling like an unnecessary artifact now that most of the railroading is done by scripted events (which also feels far less satisfying from an exploratory standpoint), and point (2) leaves players feeling frustrated that their moveslots are being consumed by a mechanic that is increasingly irrelevant to the concept of the games.

TL;DR HMs were great to begin with, but the direction subsequent games went in left them a somewhat awkward mechanic. Unfortunately they have persisted, just because they are part of the franchise's roots and will seemingly always be there. Kind of like, for example, how jumping on enemies is way harder in 3D than 2D, but Mario will ALWAYS kill enemies by jumping on them, just because that's what Mario stands for.
 
I, too, think the whole system could be fixed if we could just forget them like any move. You have no idea how scarred my boxes are with Cut, no pun intended. >:-(

Speaking of Cut, I wouldn't mind a buff on that. It's hardly above Tackle in terms of usefulness.
 
HMs have been a part of Pokemon history for so long that I don't see them leaving soon, as much as I'd like to see them do so. I know that HMs are supposed to be gates that prevent a player from sequence breaking, but the same thing can easily be achieved with gym badges, key items, or more flexibility (any fighting/rock/ground move can smash rocks, etc). That or make them more competitively viable. Waterfall and Surf are good examples of viable HMs, but in game playthroughs, I often find myself having to run 2 pokemon purely as HM slaves since I don't want to teach rock smash, flash, and cut to my main team.
 
You could look at HMs as a very slight increase in difficulty for the game: the game gets a little harder when you not only need to select moves that help you win battles, but also advance further. However, since you can fit all of a game's HMs on two Pokémon and since teams with less Pokémon are stronger anyway, there's really no point to them anymore. Other than the nostalgia value, I think they could just go all-in on the "dancing for no reason" style of roadblocks to make you complete certain tasks first before you move on.

Or make the game less lineair because I really liked them not being lineair.
 
Mekkah said:
You could look at HMs as a very slight increase in difficulty for the game: the game gets a little harder when you not only need to select moves that help you win battles, but also advance further.
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That's not very difficult, it just makes it tedious if I have to keep switching battle pokemon with HM pokemon, and it's a bit of artificial difficulty when there's a place where it forces you to use HMs to proceed. There's also the disparity of good HMs and bad HMs. Nobody in the right mind would use cut on their pokemon, but lots of people use surf, so I feel that HMs should at least have some kind of niche to distinguish themselves like a bug type cut or strength with the chance of raising your attack.
 
Oh, I agree with what you say. It's a stupid kind of difficulty that doesn't really make anyone strategize more or anything. But it might be something that's on the mind of the designers.
 
noobcubed said:
HMs are a really natural-feeling way of preventing the player from going ahead in the game until he's done the necessary plot advancement. Let's see what GameFreak had to resort to in generation V when they cut down on in-game HM use: "We're dancing for no reason. Some day we'll stop dancing for no reason."

HMs did the job much better.
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The first two gens were pretty HM-happy but you still had such plot devices as "I'm thirsty!!! You can't cross this path!!!" or "Have a RageCandyBar! Oh I won't let you past me but have a candy anyway."
 
Odd Sponge Out said:
The first two gens were pretty HM-happy but you still had such plot devices as "I'm thirsty!!! You can't cross this path!!!" or "Have a RageCandyBar! Oh I won't let you past me but have a candy anyway."
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"Sorry sir you can't cross into Mexico without a... What's that? You have some herbal tea? Well thank you, I'll share this with the other cranky guards."

Sure you can have a human block the way but it doesn't seem as good when Team Plasma is just standing in your way until you beat the gym. When a tree needs to be cut and you haven't been given the right HM or haven't beaten the gym you're blocked by something natural and not just some asshole who hasn't had his coffee. Also I HATE the kid who says you have to beat Brock before moving on. I'll beat him when I want, just let me walk down this fairly wide path with no trees or rocks to stop me
 
I believe all RBY glitches were fixed for their gen 3 remakes.
Also (wow, I feel like all I'm doing is nitpicking. . . ) gen three was still during the "physical/special divide doesn't make any sense" era.
 
I like how it's done in the later games, where HMs are useful for getting extra items but not strictly mandatory to progress. They could make HMs like Cut, etc. permanently cut down trees, perhaps, eliminating the need for them later on. The only HM that doesn't really follow this rule is Surf (and maybe Waterfall too), which are good moves anyway.

You should be able to forget Fly, though. There's no reason you shouldn't.
 
Its kind of necessary that they cant be deleted normally. Imagine beingn in the ater then overriding surf for a new move. How would the game cope with that?
 
nitrox116 said:
I like how it's done in the later games, where HMs are useful for getting extra items but not strictly mandatory to progress. They could make HMs like Cut, etc. permanently cut down trees, perhaps, eliminating the need for them later on. The only HM that doesn't really follow this rule is Surf (and maybe Waterfall too), which are good moves anyway.

You should be able to forget Fly, though. There's no reason you shouldn't.
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This is what I think HM's should be used for. Maybe once or twice use the "good" HMs (Ie, Surf/Waterfall/Strength) for story progression or short cuts (in the case of strength), but make the others only mandatory for exploration uses. I loved Black And White because of the non reliance on HMs past cutting down 1 tree before the first gym. It allowed you to train almost any team you wanted (You didn't even HAVE to use Fly, but it was way quicker if you did). I ran through that game a great many times so I know pretty much every instance of using HMs....

Toasty--Rhino said:
Its kind of necessary that they cant be deleted normally. Imagine beingn in the ater then overriding surf for a new move. How would the game cope with that?
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Related to this: If a Pokemon can learn a HM via level up (Whirlpool Wailord/Waterfall Seaking etc) PLEASE let us delete that as though it is a normal move... Do the necessary checks then let us delete the move as normal. The worst part of this is (as some people in OI have found out) is that in Gen 6, if you GAIN something with a HM move that you didn't already have, you can't trade it away until AFTER you have something else with that HM. Probably because the game doesn't like you to trade away your surf mon or something.
 
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