Hobbies Herpetology Thread (Study and Ownership of Reptiles)

[Plague von Karma]

Sort of surprised to not see a thread for this, but that only means I should start one! Herpetology, on a surface level, is defined as "the study of amphibians and reptiles", or "cold-blooded tetrapods". However, as herpetological societies have shown, this can take many forms, such as husbandry or domestic ownership, conservation, science, and more! This thread will encompass all of that!

I take a pretty keen interest in this, as I own a Tokay Gecko (Gekko gekko), Chinese Golden Thread Turtle (Mauremys sinensis) and a Common Musk Turtle (Sternotherus odoratus). Learning more about them only benefits how creative I can get when adhering to their needs. They're all rescues, so any improvements I can make are essential. There's a herpetological society in a town close to me which I like to attend for this very reason, though COVID-19 has chucked that out the window. If anyone in the UK is interested, the BHS may be up your alley if you want to get into that biz. They also have open access to their older journals!

I'm not overly educated on conservation and science, but I find the prior to be a bit concerning these days. Here in the UK, the Common European Adder (Vipera berus berus) is starting to not befit its title...it's on the decline. There's also the strange reality of WC Tokay Geckos somehow remaining a thing in the pet trade, in addition to the gigantic junk science industry in China. Maybe I'll learn more issues/facts/etc in this area through this thread, who knows?

So, is anyone else on here interested in the subject? I find it super fascinating as a pet owner, but there are so many other avenues you can take in the field that it makes me wonder what other people's experiences are.

 

[Rugi]

I don't own any animals because I still live at my parents' but I've always loved a whole lot of Australian reptiles. Black headed pythons are one of my dream animals and I've always though they're one of the craziest looking snakes on the continent. It's pretty rare for a snake to have a wild pattern so weird that it almost looks like it's been bred for it.

We also had a bearded dragon as a class pet back in high school. His name was Bob and bearded dragons have definitely earned their popularity as pets. One of the most personality-filled reptiles I'd ever seen.

 

[Plague von Karma]

We also had a bearded dragon as a class pet back in high school. His name was Bob and bearded dragons have definitely earned their popularity as pets. One of the most personality-filled reptiles I'd ever seen.

Bearded Dragons are really cool, I've had them before. Their diets are surprisingly colourful and it's kind of a shame most people don't explore it that much. I think pet stores kind of lowball their care requirements, especially when considering some of the rehome listings I've seen online. The average owner consistently screws up their diet and space requirements, then wonder why they rub their noses on the glass so much...

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Here's my old boy Rocky, one of the four I kept, though I lost one to CANV. I believe he was a citrus morph, but I'm not entirely certain. He had really cool orange-brown stripes down the "beard" and was quite hyperactive. He was originally in this weird converted wardrobe setup with painted polystyrene lining the back. I'm pretty sure there were some paint fumes coming from there, as it smelled weird. The clamp light was anchored right at the top, and no joke, this thing was tall as hell. Before I moved him to a proper Exo Terra vivarium, he would claw his way up the polystyrene just to bask. Another Bearded Dragon with him, named Callie, wouldn't climb, so she never got any light at all. God knows how these poor bastards got UV.

Anyway, back to Rocky. Within weeks of giving him proper nutrition and lighting, he quickly showed himself to be extremely energetic. Never have I seen a Beardie run so quick. I'd often let him out of the vivarium to run around and let off steam because of his nature. In the end, I came to realize that he really needed to have a bigger living space because of it. Everyone said a 4ft vivarium was optimal, but he was certainly a special case: this lad needed more territory. I ended up giving him to an owner that could accommodate it. I eventually ended up rehoming the last two to deal with more rescues. Rocky was certainly the most unique of the bunch though. I kept giving their new owners advice up until last year, where we lost contact. I hope he's doing ok.

 

[Latirae]

I absolutely love herps. I have two Leopard Geckos at home. I love them so much. I like to watch them explore their enclosures and relax. They're such easy pets to maintain and take care of. I don't know if anyone knows the morphs per say, but I'll include some pictures below for example.


My first Gecko is Gex, and he is a wild type (photo is from google, not of him)

The other is Mochi, she's a Super Hypo (Reduced pattern) Tangerine (Orange Coloration)

These two have been wonderful pets and amazing to keep. I've considered getting a Bearded Dragon as well, just wanted more space in my apartment before I do so. Keep up the Herp posts!

 

[Plague von Karma]

Latirae I've owned some Leos before, including a Giant Bell RADAR called Ozzy. Here are some pictures of him from my old house.

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He had amazing eyes, honestly the prettiest gecko I've ever seen. I tried to have him breed, but unfortunately, it never came to pass, in part due to not finding a mate who could pass on his genetics. He passed away due to an outbreak of cryptosporidiosis in my reptile room, which wiped out my Barking Gecko colony in less than 2 weeks. Ozzy was a bloody fighter and so was I, but that disease is cruel. It caught me completely off-guard, my finances weren't quite equipped, and I kick myself for not acting faster every day. I really wish he lived a longer life, but 5 years old is still excellent for a gecko that was kept as poorly as him beforehand. No UV, fed exclusively crickets, and some weird sawdust substrate that gave him splinters. He was always a grumpy boy, never afraid to growl if I held him wrong or something. He certainly never refused a locust or two, though!

In terms of other Leos, I've rescued a bunch in the past, mostly normal but there have been a few Macks. Similar to Beardies, from my experience, people underestimate their care requirements and see ""extras"" like UV as unnecessary ("they're nocturnal!!" or some poppycock like that) when it couldn't be further from the truth. Most Leos I've taken in have had early signs of MBD; one actually did have it and had to be put down. I've only had one Leo that's had its well-deserved phoenix worms, which are a godlike source of calcium for them. These Leos also tend to keep them in a sand substrate, when not only is it not their natural habitat, many captive-bred Leos have poor aim and give themselves impaction really easily. While you can definitely watch their aim to see if they can flourish in the sand, most owners from my experience...don't do that. I either have to either switch to a clay mix type for the good aimers to burrow, or switch to large pebbles mixed with a little sand underneath for the ones who suck. And good lord, don't get me started on the horrific lighting choices. They're meant to have a day-night lighting system and a heat mat, but most tend to have a singular light and a heat rock. Heat rocks break all the time and burn the reptiles using them, I've seen it too many times and heard many horror stories.

I've considered getting a Bearded Dragon as well, just wanted more space in my apartment before I do so. Keep up the Herp posts!

If you want a Bearded Dragon, make sure to adopt rather than buy from a pet store. You can get them with setups cheaper than if you got them separately a lot of the time. Make sure to check the Beardie and the setup though, as many Beardie owners are not the smartest tools in the shed. Many are neglected, mistreated, and kept wrong. Don't be afraid to nitpick everything and fix stuff, it's a pet after all. Always ask questions, too! Just remember that a Beardie diet is a lot more varied than it looks or what pet stores tell you.

 

[Plague von Karma]

I took in a female Tokay Gecko yesterday, and it's a pretty good example of what not to do when you own one.

It was kept in a plastic tub, which while an effective way to keep snakes, does not translate to Tokay Geckos. Like, at all. There was no UV, no lighting, just a heatmat, which goes against a lot of what these animals actually need. As you would expect, it's not the healthiest, but it's toughed it out pretty well. Still has loads of energy and is lightning fast.

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The man who I spoke to conveniently left out the fact this gecko dropped its tail before and is in the process of regrowing it. I find this a bit alarming honestly, since it's extremely rare to see a Tokay stressed to that point. Normally they just give you the bite of your life and run away. I'll never know how it happened, but I think this poor bastard must have had a horrific experience at some point...

It's currently hanging out in a proper terrarium, where it can have a much better life.

 

[Plague von Karma]

Been sorting out my turtles lately and managed to finally get them separated. Cost me an arm and a leg to get their individual aquariums sorted, but it's well worth it and allowed me to get creative with their needs. I can finally say these rescued turtles are in good enclosures.

While I'm here, here's a protip for budding turtle owners. I strongly recommend giving them cuttlebone.

Many newer turtle owners skip out on this and don't have anything to make up for the dip in calcium in their diet. Turtles require a large amount of calcium to maintain their shells, and their beaks also need a way to be "filed down" so to speak. This is where cuttlebone comes in: hardish exterior that's enough so they can eat it, and tons of calcium. Cut it up if you want, just make sure they have it. No matter the size of your turtle, it should be given cuttlebone alongside an appropriate UV light. They need something to gnaw on, and this is the healthiest and most effective choice.

Turtles are among the most vulnerable reptiles when it comes to calcium deficiency, and you don't want to see that shell getting deformed. Cuttlebone can be bought for extremely low prices, like a couple dollars even online, and the rewards are immediate and excellent.

 

[Plague von Karma]

Haven't posted about reptiles in a while, and since I had a bad experience with filtration, let's talk about filters for turtles.

So when I got hold of the two turtles I mentioned in the OP, they had...a fish filter. This is a classic mistake made by uneducated owners! You're meant to get specialised filters, as turtles are some of the messiest animals around and your average filter can and will get blocked! Seriously, the amount of mess a turtle can (and will) make when eating cannot be understated! They're meant to rip prey apart, which obviously means pieces will start floating around...and the filters need to solve that. See where the fish filter fails here? I hope so.

The appropriate filter for a turtle would be a external canister type. These are much, much stronger than a fish filter. While they're a bit unwieldy and take space, you need one for optimal filtration.

The usual option that's picked for specialised filters is the Exo Terra FX-200. Personally, I've found these to be needlessly temperamental, and just not strong enough to actually pump the water properly. I've even had to go to customer service before, and they said the same: temperamental and inconsistent. Hell, I'd even argue the filtration is poor, and that these buggers are scams. I'd also like to mention that you can't actually jump start these filters, you have to...suck on the tubes...yeah, these things probably break a few health and safety laws. They're also a fucking horrible thing to clean, especially with the tubes. However, despite its shortcomings, it is the cheapest viable option, retailing around £60 GBP.

The one I best prefer is the Fluval 107, though you need an EU plug converter. These filters have varying strengths and a handle you can use to manually pump and get the thing going. They're gravity-based as well, so you will need the filter to be under the stand your turtles are on. They're £90 GBP and fairly awkward to set up, but once they're all done, they're absolutely fantastic. I would strongly recommend using one.

Probably a random topic to bring up, but hey, it's something!

 

[Duckster]

Hi guys whats the herpatology council vote on can these scaly ^_^ things pick up sound cues~? They seem to like consonant clusters~~ :0(End post but...

Betta females seem to aggr. like males if on receiving end of aggresive language/sport bet
Xiao Min has 1 kill RIP Tropicana shoulda been good yes tank was bigger would leak hunt down baby Min v Troppy but investigations $$$ sorrow grief I must not

Ruby Hong thrashes but she's probably mid-high tier in dev also

 

[Plague von Karma]

Finished up on a good ol substrate replacement for Micaiah, my older Tokay Gecko. She experienced tail rot during the pandemic but it's pretty much healed up by now, so she no longer needs to be on any tissue paper or anything like that. It happened because she had issues taking some shed off the tip, which is apparently not that uncommon in tokays of her age and size. Anyway, I went with forest moss for the fantastic humidity it gives, which she seems to be enjoying. You can't see her in the picture as she's hiding already, haha.

The cage I put around the UV bulb ended up falling off because something chewed the string holding it up. Probably a locust? She's never actually hurt herself on it and it doesn't give off any heat - moreso just warmth - so it should be fine? If anything cracks off I'll go through the suffering of getting it to hang on the cage again, I guess. Or, alternatively, get a strip light setup...which for these terrariums is just cursed, it's difficult to find them at this size. Maybe the play is to upsize again, but space is a concern...

Micaiah is an old girl now, so she's slowing down a lot. Still a feisty little git, though! I'm glad to have kept her all this time to see her grow into this amazing creature. Hope to see her through a few more years!

 

[fx]

Hey! I love reptiles, specifically snakes. I own a female 4-year-old Ball Python (Python regius) and though she isn't the most extravagant in terms of morph or coloration (she's a normal), I love her to bits! I should note that, due to poor past decisions, she doesn't actually have a name. She's simply just "The Snake™"


.

One of the equally challenging yet very rewarding aspects of reptile-keeping is the various care and husbandry requirements for each species, and as you mentioned above, it seems like big-box pet stores don't seem to prioritize that aspect of maintaining their well-being. Subsequently, those who purchase a reptile from these stores are not properly educated on the nuances of husbandry, leading to a plethora of poor housing conditions for many reptiles. Of course, and this goes for any pet, the consumer should always be responsible for researching the care requirements of their desired pet, but that doesn't mean pet stores should be off the hook for improperly educating prospective pet owners.

Ball Pythons don't require particularly advanced care, but lackluster care can have damaging and, in severe cases, fatal effects. They require a good amount of humidity, a warm-but-not-hot temperature gradient, access to multiple hides, clutter, and a decent-sized enclosure. Any absence of any one of these things can make them live miserable and uncomfortable lives, and we in the hobby should never advocate for that.

I'm in the process of upgrading my girl to a 4x2x2' PVC enclosure and I'm excited to give her the next level of care she requires plus more. Currently, she's in a 20 gallon, and that's just WAY too small I've come to realize, but it's important to put my guts out there so others can learn from my misteps! There's quite a few individuals in the hobby that assert less is more for Ball Pythons, confining them to the bare minimum: tiny enclosures with little to no enrichment. Even I used to be more-or-less in that same boat, but at this point I'm against that outlook entirely and I've swallowed my pride and set aside my ego to accepting feedback on how I can better improve my snake's life.

I think it's amazing you rescue reptiles from previously poor living situations, and eventually I'd like to do the same once I get out of this tiny apartment! For now though, I'll work on learning more to improve for, as it seems there's never enough of that in the reptile hobby (despite what others may be inclined to believe). I'd love to see your terrarium setups if you're willing, as the one you posted for your Tokay Gecko looks great! I also do hope you keep posting updates of your reptile ventures, as I'd love to track along your own process.

 

[bdt2002]

I've owned a smaller Russian Tortoise for the better part of the past... how many years, around five leaning towards six?, and he's been doing surprisingly well. When I'm not home for certain weekends, breaks, or the occasional family holiday gathering, I am unfortunately not able to stay here and take care of him, but my parents have done a surprisingly good job to help me in that area. So thanks, Mom & Dad :)

I've had a growing interest in turtles and tortoises as my favorite "general family of animal" for quite some time now, and once summer break hits (so I can get better pictures, in warmer temperatures I might add) I'd love to give you guys some pictures of him sometime. The only question I've ever had about him over most of this time are his dietary habits, which from what I've been able to gather... aren't exactly normal for his species. Not only does he not do too much throughout the day (it's hard for me to want to let him run around since all he ever does is walk towards closed-off corners, that adorable little introvert), but when he does, he's almost never consistent about where he would get his food and especially his water from. I am genuinely convinced I raised him in most of, if not all the wrong ways, to the point where I even worry if he'd be better off... well, not as my reptilian pet. In my defense, we've tried almost everything the experts have told us over those however-many years. Poor little guy's somehow an even pickier eater than some of my high school friends.

 

[Plague von Karma]

These two went to a sanctuary today!

So as I think I wrote in this thread, the bigger one - Kamoebas - is a Chinese Golden Thread Turtle. Verified thoroughly and everything, no two ways about it, she is a Mauremys sinesis, a stripe-necked turtle, all those names apply to her. This species is critically endangered in the wild, having its population reduced by 80% in just 20 years. I was originally given her under the pretence she's a cooter, but it quickly turned out to not be the case. She is a member of one of the most severely endangered turtle species in the world, which could easily become extinct in the wild within the next decade.

I spent the past 2 years gradually nursing her into better health, and I'm glad I did. You really don't know the meaning of "endangered" until you start caring for something like this. It's...eye-opening. Just like any other animal, she's there swimming, breathing, living, but just happens to be brutally hunted for food, pseudoscience, her shell, and trophy fishing. Cruel. So cruel. Her previous owners kept her in a tiny tank with poor filtration for years, alongside this musk turtle, which in a rational environment, she should never see in her entire life. She even had her tail bitten off as a baby, which commonly happens in captive breeding in the pet trade as they're crammed into small tanks without much food, so they think each other's tails are food and eat them. They don't grow back, and they lose balance for the rest of their lives. I kept her in an 8ft wide tank spanning almost my entire bedroom wall, spending thousands on tech to keep everything right. But naturally, for a species like this...nothing is enough. Because what's enough is helping them save their species. That was far out of my reach until today.

The sanctuary she's at is going to have her truly flourish with proper ponds, where she can be be with her own kind to develop assurance populations. Should her species go extinct in the wild, she'll be on the front line when rewilding her habitat. After spending her life in shady captive breeding populations, she can finally be a hero. And ol' Gamera - who turned out to be a girl - went with her, who'll finally get her own tank where she can do musk turtle things alone. This is probably the greatest thing I've done with reptiles, and my future looks bright. Having to sell everything to move house, but soon, I'll be back in the game, bigger and better than ever.

A 7 hour journey well-spent. Good luck, Kamoebas. You'll always be in my thoughts. I learned a lot being with you, about not just you, but myself, and what it means to be a herpetologist. Thank you.

 

[EeveeWillEatYou]

Sorry if this is a dumb question but how do the reptiles in question view your relation ships with them?

 

[Plague von Karma]

Sorry if this is a dumb question but how do the reptiles in question view your relation ships with them?

Essentially, in the eyes of most species, you're a heat mat that offers food and water. Reptiles tolerate you on that basis. Some larger and more intelligent species like tegus may see you as something more, though, I've seen some very impressive circumstances. It's important not to project human emotions onto a reptile, as many quite literally don't have the matter to process them like we do. You can get away with that with a dog, but here, you can quite literally kill them by doing so. You'll hear that they "tolerate" you from a lot of experienced keepers, and I would agree with that notion.

Some say this is a negative as you "don't form a bond", but I think that's a misnomer. There is a bond, it's just based on a mutual respect rather than something more familial like a dog. A good way to put it is "herp keepers don't love their animals for a reward".

If you want a good example of how keeper-reptile relationships work, look at Veiled Chameleons. Speaking as someone who owned a grumpy old boy, he taught me a great deal about how it all operates. You need to respect nature, and by doing that, respect their boundaries. He'd let me handle em and everything, but when he had enough, he'd absolutely let me know. Never got bitten once, despite what the previous owner said he did to the kids he'd take this poor bastard to. I think he just pushed ol' Ringo too far, if you ask me.

Anyway, I've probably gone on a long enough tangent. Hope this helps!

 

[lazylucy]

Contributing to the thread with pictures of my beautiful lil bbi 7 month old BP Katla

 

[EeveeWillEatYou]

Essentially, in the eyes of most species, you're a heat mat that offers food and water. Reptiles tolerate you on that basis. Some larger and more intelligent species like tegus may see you as something more, though, I've seen some very impressive circumstances. It's important not to project human emotions onto a reptile, as many quite literally don't have the matter to process them like we do. You can get away with that with a dog, but here, you can quite literally kill them by doing so. You'll hear that they "tolerate" you from a lot of experienced keepers, and I would agree with that notion.

Some say this is a negative as you "don't form a bond", but I think that's a misnomer. There is a bond, it's just based on a mutual respect rather than something more familial like a dog. A good way to put it is "herp keepers don't love their animals for a reward".

If you want a good example of how keeper-reptile relationships work, look at Veiled Chameleons. Speaking as someone who owned a grumpy old boy, he taught me a great deal about how it all operates. You need to respect nature, and by doing that, respect their boundaries. He'd let me handle em and everything, but when he had enough, he'd absolutely let me know. Never got bitten once, despite what the previous owner said he did to the kids he'd take this poor bastard to. I think he just pushed ol' Ringo too far, if you ask me.

Anyway, I've probably gone on a long enough tangent. Hope this helps!

A fun quote is that “dogs see you bringing them food and shelter so you must be god. While cats see you bringing them food and shelter so they must be god” this feels kinda similar, to what you said about reptiles.

 

[Plague von Karma]

A fun quote is that “dogs see you bringing them food and shelter so you must be god. While cats see you bringing them food and shelter so they must be god” this feels kinda similar, to what you said about reptiles.

In this case, it would be "reptiles see you bringing them food and shelter, that's convenient".

 

[EeveeWillEatYou]

In this case, it would be "reptiles see you bringing them food and shelter, that's convenient".

Do they see you as a living creature in that respect or more of a natural part of the ecosystem. Or maybe more as something like a robot?

 

[Plague von Karma]

Do they see you as a living creature in that respect or more of a natural part of the ecosystem. Or maybe more as something like a robot?

Depends. With chameleons, they can see you as a tree and your hands as birds at once. The latter is why you should never grab a reptile from above, especially not when casting the shadow over the parietal eye. I think reptiles are more than capable of seeing humans as humans, but when you're close-up, it gets a bit murky.