Gen 4 Heatran VS. Moltres with Rocks-setting Leads

Renwit355

A while ago (during 5th Gen), I decided to play some 4th Gen and I began think of a team. seeing that Setting up Stealth Rocks (SR) was very popular in 4th Gen, I wanted to have a Pokemon that could OHKO as many SR setters as Possible (either KOing them or making them switch out, prevent SR from being laid). For some reason, I paid special attention to Steel Types with Occa Berry (maybe cause Steel Types were a popular Choices) and I chose to Exploit their Fire Weakness as opposed to their Ground Weakness (probably cause most Steel Types have a better Physical Defense than Special Defense, and Fire Attacks is more Special-orientated then Ground Attacks).

I looked at the most Powerful Special Fire Attackers (for OU) and found Heatran and Moltres (I probably found Magmortar too, but Moltres had the same Special Attack and was faster, so I guess I ignored him, and beside, I don't think Magmortar could fulfill a certain condition I will reveal later). I did some Calcs (probably stat-wise) and found something interesting.

Max speed Modest Moltres has more Special Attack than Timid Heatran and Outspeeds Timid Heatran. For this reason, I would chose Moltres, but I also feel like exploring this Competition a bit more, to help people looking the same thing I am looking for.

Goal: find a Pokemon that can KO many SR setting Leads (in OU) or force them out before they can set SR.
If I can KO a Pokemon with little Difficulty or stop SR from being Set up, It's a job well done.


Stats (Max Special Attack and Speed):
Modest Moltres:
HP:321
Attack:212
Defense:216
Spec. Att:383
Spec. Def:206
Speed:279 (outruns Positive Base 77s)
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Modest Heatran:
HP:323
Attack:194
Defense:248
Spec. Att:394
Spec. Def:248
Speed:253 (outruns Positive Base 65s)
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Timid Moltres:
HP:321
Attack:212
Defense:216
Spec. Att:349
Spec. Def:206
Speed:306 (outruns Neutral Base 103s)
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Timid Heatran:
HP:323
Attack:194
Defense:248
Spec. Att:359
Spec. Def:248
Speed: 278 (outruns Neutral Base 89s)
-------------------------
Quiet Heatran (for Eruption):
HP: 323
Attack: 216
Defense: 248
Spec. Att: 394
Spec. Def: 248
Speed: 227 (Ties with Neutral Base 64s and Positive Base 54s)
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Stat Difference between Sets (Max Special Attack and Speed):
Modest Moltres VS. Modest Heatran:
...Moltres...VS...Heatran
.+18 Attack.|..+2 HP
..+26 Speed.|..+32 Defense
......N/A......|..+11 Spec. Att
......N/A......|..+ 42 Spec. Def
Modest Moltres VS. Timid Heatran:
.....Moltres....VS...Heatran
...+18 Attack..|..+2 HP
.+24 Spec.Att.|..+32 Defense
....+1 Speed...|..+42 Spec.Def
Timid Moltres VS. Modest Heatran:
...Moltres...VS...Heatran
.+18 Attack.|..+2 HP
.+53 Speed..|..+32 Defense
......N/A......|..+45 Spec. Att
......N/A......|..+42 Spec. Def
Timid Moltres VS. Timid Heatran:
...Moltres...VS...Heatran
.+18 Attack.|..+2 HP
..+28 Speed.|..+32 Defense
......N/A......|..+10 Spec. Att
......N/A......|..+ 42 Spec. Def

Of Course, I am not saying Moltres is plain better, because they each have some advantages over the other.
Modest Moltres is more more powerful and faster than Timid Heatran. However, all Heatran are Bulkier than the listed Moltres and has a different Typing (with its own Pros and Cons).

Then there's their Movesets, Ability and, I guess, gender.
Gender Stuff:
Moltres: Genderless
Heatran: Male and Female

Ability:
Moltres has Pressure, which depletes the opponent's move PP more quickly
Heatran has Flash Fire, which grants an Immunity to Fire Moves and, when hit with a Fire move, Boost the power of your own Fire Attacks
--------------------------------
Weaknesses and Resistances:

Weaknesses:
...Moltres...|...Both..|..Heatran
..Rock(X4)..|.Water.|..Fighting
...Electric...|...N/A...|..Ground(X4)
Resistances:
....Moltres...|.......Both.......|.Heatran
...Fighting...|...Bug(X0.25)..|.Normal
.Ground(X0).|.Grass(X0.25).|.Flying
.....Steel.....|........N/A.......|.Poison(X0)
......Fire......|........N/A.......|.Ghost
......N/A......|........N/A.......|.Steel(X0.25)
......N/A......|........N/A.......|.Fire(X0)
......N/A......|........N/A.......|.Psychic
......N/A......|........N/A.......|.Ice(X0.25)
......N/A......|........N/A.......|.Dragon
......N/A......|........N/A.......|.Dark
Neutralities:
..Moltres.|.Heatran (There is no Shared Neutralities)
..Normal..|.Rock
...Flying..|.Electric
..Poison..|.N/A
...Ghost..|.N/A
.Psychic.|.N/A
....Ice....|.N/A
..Dragon.|.N/A
...Dark...|.N/A
-------------------------


Moveset:
.....Moltres.....|.......Both.......|..Heatran
..Double-Edge.|..Double Team.|..Attract
......Mimic......|......Endure......|..Captivate
..Morning Sun.|......Facade.....|..Explosion
...Safeguard...|...Frustration...|..Headbutt
...Aerial Ace...|...Giga impact..|..Leer
....Air Cutter...|.Hidden Power.|..Rock Climb
....Air Slash....|...Hyper Beam..|..Scary Face
......Defog......|...Natural Gift..|..Strength
........Fly........|.....Protect.....|..Dig
.......Pluck......|......Return.....|..Earth Power
......Roost......|........Roar.......|..Earthquake
...Sky Attack..|..Secret Power.|..Rock Slide
.....Tailwind....|....Sleep Talk...|..Rock Tomb
..Wing Attack..|......Snore......|..Stealth Rock
...Sandstorm...|...Substitute...|..Stone Edge
......U-turn......|....Swagger....|.. Bug Bite
.Ominous Wind.|.......Swift......|..Flash Cannon
...Steel Wing...|..Rock Smash..|..Iron Defense
......Ember......|.......Toxic......|..Iron Head
...Rain Dance...|....Mud-Slap...|..Metal Sound
......Agility......|.AncientPower.|..Eruption(Event)
..Extrasensory.|....Fire Blast....|..Fire Fang
.....Twister.....|.....Fire Spin....|..Lava Plume
........N/A.......|..Flamethrower.|..Magma Storm
........N/A.......|...Heat Wave...|..Dragon Pulse
........N/A.......|....Overheat.....|..Crunch
........N/A.......|...Sunny Day....|..Dark Pulse
........N/A.......|...Will-O-Wisp...|..Payback
........N/A.......|....SolarBeam...|..Taunt
........N/A.......|........Rest.......|..Torment
-------------------------

Now you could move some Extra EVs on Modest Moltres to other Stats while still having more Special Attack and Speed than Timid Heatran. If you had Modest Moltres has the same Special Attack and Speed as Timid Heatran, you would have 24 Remaining EVs (22 EVs if you wanted to surpass Heatran's Stats). With this much EVs Left, Moltres is not getting more bulkier than Heatran, but Moltres could put these EVs into Attack or place it into the Defense Stat Decreasing by the selected Nature, with Hopes of using a Mixed Moltres.
Here are the combinations (using 22 EVs):
Type of Moltres and EVs | Attack/Defense/Special Defense
Mild Moltres 22 Attack EVs | 258/194/206

Naughty Moltres 22 Attack EVs | 258/216/185

Mild Moltres 22 Defense EVs | 236/214/206

Naughty Moltres 22 Special Defense EVs | 236/216/205

Modest Moltres 22 Attack EVs | 232/216/206

As you can see, Modest Moltres has the Best Mixed Defenses, but the lower Attack. Mild/Naughty Moltres with 22 Attack EVs have the highest Attack, but their Decreased Defensive Stat suffers alot. Mild/Naughty Moltres with 22 EVs in their Defensive Stat has a slightly higher Attack than the Modest Moltres and their Defensive Stats Decrease by a few points; this Combination may be better than the Modest Set if the Defensive Stat Decrease does not change any Major Attack-Surviving (sometimes, you could sacrifice one or two points without taking more damage from the same Attack, you should use a Calculator for see if any changes happened). If you're willing to sacrifice some of Moltres' Bulk with a Mild/Naughty Nature, then you can use maximum Mixed Power.
-------------------------

I plan on putting Choice Specs on Said Pokemon to Maximize KOing Power.

In Term of Movesets, Here are the Notable Moves Between Moltres and Heatran:
Moltres
Air Slash: Good STAB Attack for hurting Fighting (if Fire Moves don't outpower Air Slash) and it has a Flinch Chance
U-turn: Good for keeping Momentum when the Opponent switches out or when Moltres need to escape a slower Opponent
Extrasensory: Maybe Usable for Hitting Poison types
Mimic: I guess Copying a faster SR from maybe Jirachi (or some other Move) can be Nice (maybe not for a Specs Set)
Tailwind: allowing Moltres to Support its Teammates, maybe before being KOed by a slower Opponent (also not for a Spec Set)
Heatran
Magma Storm: as Strong as a Fire Blast, Trap Opponents, and can prevent a Sashed Poke from having a second turn (at the price of lower Accuracy)
Earth Power: Hits Opposing Heatran and Steel Types Neutral to Fire Moves hard and is Effective on other Types (like Electric Type)
Explosion: I guess you could use this to take out Blissey
Stealth Rock: Maybe set up your own SRs when the Opponent Switches out
Eruption: Probably the Most Powerful Fire Attack in the Game (at full Health), but Forces Heatran to be Quiet Natured, Limiting what it can outspeed
Torment/Taunt: Moves to Annoy your Opponent
Lava Plume: Decent Fire Attack with a Good Chance of Burning the Opponent
Rock Slide/Stone Edge/Flash Cannon/Iron Head/Earthquake/Dragon Pulse/Dark Pulse/Crunch: Just Some Coverage Moves
-------------------------

As for Move Sets (I am not sure what Movesets to use, maybe some help?):
Moltres:
Fire Blast / Overheat
???
HP Fighting / HP Ground / HP Grass
??? / Overheat

Heatran:
Fire Blast / Magma Storm / Overheat
??? / Earth Power
??? / Flash Cannon / HP ???
??? / Overheat
--------------------------------
Now for the Stealth Rock Setters (take note that Heatran could run Magma Storm over Fire Blast to trap the opponent and deal residual damage, possible KOing the pokemon at the end of the turn or negating leftovers):
Ordered by Speed
Aerodactyl:
Typing: Rock/Flying
Stats: 80/105/65/60/75/130
Outspeeds: All Moltres and Heatran (not included Scarfed ones)
Calcs:
Moltres Calcs:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Moltres Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Aerodactyl: 199-234 (54.8 - 64.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(199, 201, 204, 206, 208, 210, 213, 215, 218, 220, 222, 225, 227, 229, 231, 234)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Moltres Overheat vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Aerodactyl: 231-273 (63.6 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(231, 234, 237, 240, 242, 245, 248, 250, 253, 256, 258, 261, 264, 267, 270, 273)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Moltres Hidden Power Fighting vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Aerodactyl: 155-183 (42.6 - 50.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
(155, 157, 159, 161, 162, 164, 166, 168, 170, 172, 173, 175, 177, 179, 181, 183)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Moltres Air Slash vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Aerodactyl: 124-147 (34.1 - 40.4%) -- 50% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
(124, 126, 127, 129, 130, 132, 133, 135, 136, 138, 139, 141, 142, 144, 145, 147)
Heatran Calcs:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Aerodactyl: 204-241 (56.1 - 66.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(204, 207, 210, 212, 214, 216, 219, 222, 224, 226, 228, 231, 234, 236, 238, 241)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Eruption (150 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Aerodactyl: 255-301 (70.2 - 82.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(255, 258, 261, 264, 267, 270, 273, 276, 279, 282, 285, 288, 291, 294, 297, 301)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Flash Cannon vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Aerodactyl: 546-644 (150.4 - 177.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(546, 552, 560, 566, 572, 578, 584, 590, 596, 606, 612, 618, 624, 630, 636, 644)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Flash Cannon vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Babiri Berry Aerodactyl: 273-322 (75.2 - 88.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(273, 276, 280, 283, 286, 289, 292, 295, 298, 303, 306, 309, 312, 315, 318, 322)
My Thoughts:
My goodness, Aerodactyl is too anti-Moltres&Heatran; most likely will KO will a Rock move or Earthquake, is likely holding a focus sash, and will SR on the switch or KO and then SR. probably best thing you can is Attack when Aero SRs (very risky), Switch to some bulk-ish counter with priority (Metagross or Scizor), and force it out (or maybe KO it with pursuit). still, leaving Aero alive with SR up is not a real Victory, and it could have Fire Blast to hurt any Steel Switches. Very difficult Lead for the Fire Types.
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Azelf:
Typing: Psychic
Stats: 75/115/70/115/70/115
Outspeeds: All Moltres and Heatran
Calcs:
Moltres Calcs:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Moltres Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Azelf: 417-492 (117.7 - 138.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(417, 423, 427, 432, 436, 442, 447, 451, 457, 462, 466, 471, 477, 481, 486, 492)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Moltres Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Azelf through Light Screen: 210-247 (59.3 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(210, 211, 214, 217, 219, 222, 225, 226, 229, 232, 234, 237, 240, 241, 244, 247)

Moltres need 324 Special Attack to OHKO 252 HP / 4 Special Defense Azelf (without Light Screen) with Fire Blast

0 Atk Moltres U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Azelf: 136-160 (46.7 - 54.9%) -- 62.1% chance to 2HKO
(136, 136, 138, 140, 142, 144, 144, 146, 148, 150, 152, 152, 154, 156, 158, 160)

0- Atk Moltres U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Azelf: 122-144 (41.9 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(122, 122, 124, 126, 128, 128, 130, 132, 132, 134, 136, 138, 138, 140, 142, 144)

Maybe U-turn to a Pursuit or Priority User to KO Azelf?
Heatran Calcs:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Azelf: 430-507 (121.4 - 143.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(430, 435, 441, 445, 450, 456, 460, 465, 471, 475, 481, 486, 490, 496, 501, 507)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Azelf through Light Screen: 216-255 (61 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(216, 219, 220, 223, 226, 229, 231, 234, 237, 238, 241, 244, 246, 249, 252, 255)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Azelf through Light Screen: 270-318 (76.2 - 89.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(270, 273, 276, 279, 282, 285, 288, 292, 295, 298, 301, 304, 307, 310, 313, 318)

Heatran needs 324 Special Attack to OHKO 252 HP / 4 Special Defense Azelf (without Light Screen) with Fire Blast
My Thoughts:
Moltres and Heatran have a decent chance to KO or force out Azelf without Focus Sash, but Sashed Azelf could SR and possibly KO with Explosion (and maybe trick a choice scarf to steal your Specs). I guess you Could Attack Sashed Azelf, let it SR, and then switch to a Explosion Resistor, but there's no guarantee that's how it will play out.
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Infernape:
Typing: Fire/Fighting
Stats: 76/104/71/104/71/108
Outspeeds: All Moltres and Heatran
Calcs:
Moltres Calcs:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Moltres Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Infernape: 231-272 (78.8 - 92.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(231, 234, 236, 239, 242, 244, 247, 249, 252, 255, 258, 261, 264, 266, 269, 272)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Moltres Overheat vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Infernape: 269-317 (91.8 - 108.1%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
(269, 272, 276, 279, 282, 285, 288, 291, 294, 297, 300, 304, 307, 310, 313, 317)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Moltres Overheat vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Infernape: 241-284 (82.2 - 96.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(241, 243, 246, 249, 252, 255, 258, 261, 264, 267, 270, 272, 275, 278, 281, 284)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Moltres Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Infernape: 518-612 (176.7 - 208.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(518, 524, 530, 536, 542, 548, 554, 560, 566, 572, 578, 584, 590, 596, 602, 612)
Heatran Calcs:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Infernape: 237-280 (80.8 - 95.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(237, 240, 243, 246, 249, 252, 255, 258, 260, 263, 266, 269, 271, 274, 277, 280)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Overheat vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Infernape: 277-327 (94.5 - 111.6%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
(277, 280, 284, 287, 291, 294, 297, 300, 303, 306, 310, 313, 316, 320, 323, 327)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Overheat vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Infernape: 248-292 (84.6 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(248, 251, 254, 257, 260, 263, 265, 268, 271, 274, 277, 280, 283, 286, 289, 292)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Eruption (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Infernape: 297-350 (101.3 - 119.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(297, 300, 304, 307, 311, 315, 318, 321, 325, 328, 332, 336, 339, 342, 346, 350)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Eruption (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Infernape: 266-313 (90.7 - 106.8%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
(266, 269, 272, 275, 279, 282, 285, 288, 291, 294, 297, 300, 303, 306, 309, 313)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Infernape: 426-502 (145.3 - 171.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(426, 430, 436, 440, 446, 450, 456, 460, 466, 470, 476, 480, 486, 490, 496, 502)

Magma Storm has a 12.5% chance of KOing standard Naive Infernape by the end of the turn (provided Magma Storm hits)
My Thoughts:
You could OHKO Infernape, but it probably has Focus Sash. it could then KO with the appropriate Attack move. has a higher chance of KOing you if it is using Life Orb.
-------------------------
Celebi:
Typing: Psychic/Grass
Stats: 100/100/100/100/100/100
Outspeeds: All Moltres (Except Timid Moltres when neutral natured) and All Heatran
Calcs:
Moltres Calcs:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Moltres Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Occa Berry Celebi: 313-369 (77.4 - 91.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(313, 316, 321, 324, 327, 331, 334, 339, 342, 346, 349, 354, 357, 361, 364, 369)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Moltres Overheat vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Occa Berry Celebi: 364-429 (90 - 106.1%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
(364, 367, 372, 376, 381, 385, 390, 394, 397, 402, 406, 411, 415, 420, 424, 429)

Occa Berry Celebi need 371 HP and 236 Special Defense to survive Fire Blast (404 HP and 252 Special Defense to survive Overheat)
Heatran Calcs:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Occa Berry Celebi: 322-379 (79.7 - 93.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(322, 325, 330, 333, 337, 340, 345, 348, 352, 355, 360, 363, 367, 370, 375, 379)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Overheat vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Occa Berry Celebi: 375-442 (92.8 - 109.4%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
(375, 379, 384, 388, 393, 397, 402, 406, 411, 415, 420, 424, 429, 433, 438, 442)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Occa Berry Celebi: 402-474 (99.5 - 117.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
(402, 406, 411, 417, 421, 426, 430, 435, 439, 445, 450, 454, 459, 463, 468, 474)

Occa Berry Celebi needs 382/404/404 HP and 236/260/278 Special Defense to survive Fire Blast/Overheat/Max power Eruption
My Thoughts:
It could Outspeed you and set up SR, but it will probably get KOed by your attack. it may also try to ThunderWave you.
-------------------------
Jirachi:
Typing: Steel/Psychic
Stats: 100/100/100/100/100/100
Outspeeds: All Moltres (Except Timid Moltres when neutral natured) and All Heatran
Calcs:
Moltres Calcs:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Moltres Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Occa Berry Jirachi: 231-273 (57.1 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(231, 234, 237, 240, 241, 244, 247, 250, 253, 256, 258, 261, 264, 267, 270, 273)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Moltres Overheat vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Occa Berry Jirachi: 270-318 (66.8 - 78.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(270, 273, 276, 279, 282, 285, 288, 292, 295, 298, 301, 304, 307, 310, 313, 318)

Occa Berry Jirachi needs 371 HP and 236 Special Defense to survive Fire Blast (404 HP and 252 Special Defense to survive Overheat)
Heatran Calcs:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Occa Berry Jirachi: 237-280 (58.6 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(237, 240, 243, 246, 249, 252, 255, 258, 259, 262, 265, 268, 271, 274, 277, 280)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Jirachi: 238-282 (58.9 - 69.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(238, 242, 244, 248, 250, 252, 256, 258, 262, 264, 266, 270, 272, 276, 278, 282)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Overheat vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Occa Berry Jirachi: 277-327 (68.5 - 80.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(277, 280, 283, 286, 291, 294, 297, 300, 303, 306, 310, 313, 316, 319, 322, 327)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Occa Berry Jirachi: 297-349 (73.5 - 86.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(297, 300, 303, 307, 310, 313, 318, 321, 324, 328, 331, 334, 339, 342, 345, 349)

Occa Berry Jirachi need 382/404/404 HP and 236/260/278 Special Defense to survive Fire Blast/Overheat/Max power Eruption (383 HP and and 236 Special Defense to survive Earth Power)
My Thoughts:
It could Outspeed you and set up SR, but it will probably get KOed by your attack. Calm Mind sets may survive a hit at +1, then KO you the next turn (you may want to test this first). it could also Substitute to waste your PP or Fish for a Miss.
-------------------------
Gliscor:
Typing: Ground/Flying
Stats: 75/95/125/45/75/95
Outspeeds: All Moltres (Except Timid Moltres when neutral natured) and All Heatran
Calcs:
Moltres Calcs:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Moltres Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 196 SpD Gliscor: 315-372 (88.9 - 105%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
(315, 319, 322, 327, 330, 334, 337, 342, 345, 349, 352, 357, 360, 364, 367, 372)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Moltres Overheat vs. 252 HP / 196 SpD Gliscor: 367-433 (103.6 - 122.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(367, 372, 376, 381, 385, 390, 393, 397, 402, 406, 411, 415, 420, 424, 429, 433)

Gliscor needs 353 HP and 248 Special Defense to survive Fire Blast (At least 353 HP and 273 Special Defense, which requires a positive nature, in order to have a 62.5% chance to surviving Overheat, which is the best percent chance he can get)
Heatran Calcs:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 196 SpD Gliscor: 324-382 (91.5 - 107.9%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
(324, 328, 331, 336, 339, 343, 348, 351, 355, 358, 363, 366, 370, 373, 378, 382)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Overheat vs. 252 HP / 196 SpD Gliscor: 378-445 (106.7 - 125.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(378, 382, 387, 391, 396, 400, 405, 409, 414, 418, 423, 427, 432, 436, 441, 445)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 196 SpD Gliscor: 405-477 (114.4 - 134.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(405, 409, 414, 418, 424, 429, 433, 438, 442, 447, 453, 457, 462, 466, 471, 477)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 196 SpD Yache Berry Gliscor: 252-298 (71.1 - 84.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(252, 256, 258, 262, 264, 268, 270, 274, 276, 280, 282, 286, 288, 292, 294, 298)

Yache Berry Gliscor needs 353/353/354 HP and 199/255 (requires a positive nature)/at least 273 (requires a positive nature) Special Defense to survive Hidden Power Ice/Fire Blast/a 50% chance of surviving Overheat (12.5% chance of surviving Max power Eruption)
My Thoughts:
It could KO you, but most Gliscor seem a bit stall-ish or will set up first, so if you attack, you will possibly KO it (got lazy around here).
-------------------------
Mamoswine:
Typing: Ice/Ground
Stats: 110/130/80/70/60/80
Outspeeds: Modest Moltres (when positive natured) and All Heatran (Except Timid Heatran when neutral natured)
Calcs:
Moltres Calcs:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Moltres Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mamoswine: 948-1116 (262.6 - 309.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(948, 956, 968, 980, 992, 1002, 1014, 1026, 1034, 1046, 1058, 1070, 1080, 1092, 1104, 1116)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Moltres Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mamoswine: 297-349 (82.2 - 96.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(297, 300, 303, 307, 310, 313, 318, 321, 324, 328, 331, 334, 339, 342, 345, 349)

You can Use Air Slash if you want to try and Flinch him (stops SR and ruins its Sashing Attempts)

252 Atk Choice Band Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Moltres: 108-126 (33.6 - 39.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(108, 108, 108, 110, 112, 114, 114, 116, 118, 118, 120, 120, 122, 124, 126, 126)
Heatran Calcs:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Occa Berry Mamoswine: 487-574 (134.9 - 159%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(487, 493, 499, 505, 510, 516, 522, 528, 534, 540, 544, 550, 556, 562, 568, 574)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mamoswine: 650-768 (180 - 212.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(650, 660, 666, 674, 680, 690, 696, 704, 714, 720, 728, 734, 744, 750, 758, 768)

Lets just say nobody run Specially Bulky Occa/Babiri Berry Mamoswine...
My Thoughts:
Is probably Sashed, so it could set up SR or KO, and it could outspeed you, so be careful.
-------------------------
Heatran:
Typing: Fire/Steel
Stats: 91/90/106/130/106/77
Outspeeds: Speed Ties other Heatran
Calcs:
Moltres Calcs:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Moltres Hidden Power Ground vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 340-400 (88 - 103.6%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
(340, 344, 348, 352, 356, 360, 364, 368, 372, 376, 380, 384, 388, 392, 396, 400)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Moltres Hidden Power Fighting vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 170-200 (44 - 51.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
(170, 172, 174, 176, 178, 180, 182, 184, 186, 188, 190, 192, 194, 196, 198, 200)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Moltres Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Heatran: 93-110 (28.7 - 34%) -- 98.7% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
(93, 94, 95, 96, 97, 99, 99, 101, 102, 103, 104, 105, 106, 108, 108, 110)

You can use Air Slash to One shot Normal Sub Set Heatran's Substitutes, But as for the Torment Set...

252+ SpA Choice Specs Moltres Air Slash vs. 244 HP / 12+ SpD Heatran: 84-99 (21.8 - 25.7%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
(84, 85, 86, 87, 88, 89, 90, 91, 92, 93, 94, 95, 96, 97, 98, 99)

Heatran needs 384 HP and 283 Special Defense for its Substitutes to not Break to Air Slash
Heatran Calcs:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 448-528 (116 - 136.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(448, 452, 456, 464, 468, 472, 480, 484, 488, 496, 500, 504, 512, 516, 520, 528)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Shuca Berry Heatran: 224-264 (58 - 68.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(224, 226, 228, 232, 234, 236, 240, 242, 244, 248, 250, 252, 256, 258, 260, 264)

Shuca Berry Heatran needs 365 HP and 248 Special Defense to survive Earth Power
My Thoughts:
only Shuca Berry and Bulky Heatran can survive a ground Attack. Moltres could fail to KO it with the right move and it's quite a gamble in Heatran VS. Heatran
-------------------------
Metagross:
Typing: Steel/Psychic
Stats: 80/135/130/95/90/70
Outspeeds: Modest Heatran (when positive natured) and Quiet Heatran
Calcs:
Moltres Calcs:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Moltres Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Occa Berry Metagross: 342-403 (93.9 - 110.7%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
(342, 346, 351, 354, 358, 363, 366, 370, 375, 378, 382, 387, 390, 394, 399, 403)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Moltres Overheat vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Occa Berry Metagross: 399-471 (109.6 - 129.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(399, 405, 409, 414, 418, 423, 427, 432, 438, 442, 447, 451, 456, 460, 465, 471)

Occa Berry Metagross needs 364 HP and 241 Special Defense to survive Fire Blast (364 HP and 281 Special Defense, which requires a positive nature, to survive Overheat)
Heatran Calcs:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Occa Berry Metagross: 352-415 (96.7 - 114%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
(352, 357, 360, 364, 369, 373, 378, 381, 385, 390, 394, 397, 402, 406, 411, 415)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Overheat vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Occa Berry Metagross: 411-484 (112.9 - 132.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(411, 415, 421, 426, 430, 435, 439, 445, 450, 454, 459, 465, 469, 474, 478, 484)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Metagross: 352-416 (96.7 - 114.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
(352, 356, 360, 366, 370, 374, 378, 382, 386, 390, 394, 398, 402, 406, 410, 416)

Between Fire Blast and Earth Power, go with Fire Blast, in case Metagross does not have Occa Berry or for the chance of burning Metagross, KOing it anyways

Metagross need 364 HP and 248/289 (requires a positive nature)/at least 306 (also requires a positive nature) Special Defense to survive Fire Blast/Overheat/Max power Eruption (363 HP and 249 Special Defense to survive Earth Power)
My Thoughts:
Metagross with Occa Berry are pretty much Check by the Fire Types.
-------------------------
Skarmory:
Typing: Steel/Flying
Stats: 65/80/140/40/70/70
Outspeeds: Modest Heatran (when positive natured) and Quiet Heatran
Calcs:
Moltres Calcs:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Moltres Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Occa Berry Skarmory: 282-333 (84.4 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(282, 285, 289, 292, 295, 298, 303, 306, 309, 312, 315, 319, 322, 325, 328, 333)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Moltres Overheat vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Occa Berry Skarmory: 330-388 (98.8 - 116.1%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
(330, 333, 337, 340, 345, 349, 352, 357, 360, 364, 369, 372, 376, 379, 384, 388)
Heatran Calcs:
My Thoughts:
-------------------------
Tyranitar:
Typing: Rock/Dark
Stats: 100/134/110/95/100/61
Outspeeds: Quiet Heatran (when positive natured)
Calcs:
Moltres Calcs:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Moltres Hidden Power Fighting vs. 252 HP / 216+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 244-288 (60.3 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(244, 244, 248, 252, 256, 256, 260, 264, 264, 268, 272, 276, 276, 280, 284, 288)

Tyranitar need 389 HP and 236 Special Defense to survive Hidden Power Fighting in the Sand

252+ SpA Choice Specs Moltres Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 216+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 122-144 (30.1 - 35.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
(122, 122, 124, 126, 128, 128, 130, 132, 132, 134, 136, 138, 138, 140, 142, 144)
Heatran Calcs:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 216+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 80-94 (19.8 - 23.2%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
(80, 81, 81, 82, 84, 84, 85, 86, 87, 88, 89, 90, 91, 92, 93, 94)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 216+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 99-117 (24.5 - 28.9%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
(99, 101, 102, 103, 104, 105, 106, 108, 109, 110, 111, 112, 114, 114, 116, 117)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 216+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 160-190 (39.6 - 47%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
(160, 162, 164, 166, 168, 170, 172, 174, 176, 178, 180, 182, 184, 186, 188, 190)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 216+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 216-254 (53.4 - 62.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(216, 218, 218, 222, 224, 228, 230, 234, 236, 236, 240, 242, 246, 248, 252, 254)

Worst Case Scenario, 252 HP / 252+ Special Defense Tyranitar in the sand has a 10.5% chance of not being 2HKOed (needs at least 400 HP and 320 Special Defense to have a chance of Surviving... don't ask me "what if it uses Protect?")
My Thoughts:
Very Bulky Pokemon. You have a chance of two shot-ing him, which could happen if he SRs first, but he could always just switch out. He could also KO you if he attacks and maybe set up a Dragon Dance too.
-------------------------
Empoleon:
Typing:Water/Steel
Stats: 84/86/88/111/101/60
Outspeeds: Quiet Heatran (when positive natured)
Calcs:
Moltres Calcs:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Moltres Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Empoleon: 222-264 (59.6 - 70.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(222, 226, 228, 230, 234, 236, 240, 240, 244, 246, 250, 252, 254, 258, 260, 264)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Moltres Overheat vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Empoleon: 260-306 (69.8 - 82.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(260, 264, 266, 270, 272, 276, 278, 282, 284, 288, 290, 294, 296, 300, 302, 306)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Moltres Hidden Power Fighting vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Empoleon: 174-206 (46.7 - 55.3%) -- 11.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(174, 176, 178, 180, 182, 184, 186, 188, 190, 192, 194, 196, 198, 200, 202, 206)

0 SpA Empoleon Surf vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Moltres: 254-302 (79.1 - 94%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(254, 258, 260, 264, 266, 270, 272, 276, 278, 282, 284, 288, 290, 294, 296, 302)

Empoleon need 275 Special Attack to have a chance of OHKOing 4 Special Defense Moltres with Surf (needs to be positive natured for a guaranteed OHKO)
Heatran Calcs:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Empoleon: 228-270 (61.2 - 72.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(228, 232, 234, 238, 240, 242, 246, 248, 252, 254, 256, 258, 262, 264, 268, 270)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Empoleon: 230-272 (61.8 - 73.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(230, 232, 236, 238, 242, 244, 246, 250, 252, 254, 258, 260, 262, 266, 268, 272)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Empoleon: 288-338 (77.4 - 90.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(288, 290, 294, 296, 300, 304, 306, 310, 314, 318, 320, 324, 328, 330, 334, 338)
Looks like we can't OHKO this Empoleon (am I missing a better Move?)

Empoleon needs 371 HP and 243/283/303 (requires a positive nature) Special Defense to survive Fire Blast&Earth Power/Overheat/Max power Eruption
My Thoughts:
It takes a hit, sets up SR, and maybe switch out. not looking good.
-------------------------
Swampert:
Typing: Water/Ground
Stats: 100/110/90/85/90/60
Outspeeds: Quiet Heatran (when positive natured)
Calcs:
Moltres Calcs:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Moltres Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 216+ SpD Swampert: 156-184 (38.6 - 45.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
(156, 157, 160, 162, 163, 165, 166, 169, 171, 172, 174, 177, 178, 180, 181, 184)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Moltres Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 216+ SpD Swampert: 388-460 (96 - 113.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
(388, 392, 400, 404, 408, 412, 416, 420, 424, 432, 436, 440, 444, 448, 452, 460)

With at least 401 HP and 305 Special Defense (requires positive nature), Swampert has a 37.5% chance of surviving Hidden power Grass (The best percent chance he can get)
Heatran Calcs:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 216+ SpD Swampert: 128-151 (31.6 - 37.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
(128, 129, 131, 132, 134, 135, 137, 138, 140, 141, 143, 144, 146, 147, 149, 151)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 216+ SpD Swampert: 129-152 (31.9 - 37.6%) -- 0.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
(129, 130, 132, 133, 135, 136, 138, 139, 141, 142, 144, 145, 147, 148, 150, 152)

Overheat and max power Eruption do more damage than Earth Power, but Overheat's Attack drop and Eruption's BP after an attack make they bad options against Swampert.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 216+ SpD Swampert: 404-476 (100 - 117.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(404, 408, 412, 416, 420, 428, 432, 436, 440, 444, 452, 456, 460, 464, 468, 476)

With at least 401 HP and 305 Special Defense (requires positive nature), Swampert has a 18.7% chance of surviving Hidden power Grass (The best percent chance he can get)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 216+ SpD Swampert: 100-118 (24.7 - 29.2%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
(100, 102, 102, 104, 104, 106, 108, 108, 110, 110, 112, 114, 114, 116, 116, 118)

Use Earth Power or Fire Blast if you don't have Hidden Power Grass (or switch out)
My Thoughts:
Bulky pokemon. Could survive a hit, SR, then switch out or try to KO if the Fire Type does not have the right move
-------------------------
Blissey:
Typing: Normal
Stats: 255/10/10/75/135/55
Outspeeds: Quiet Heatran (when positive natured)
Calcs:
Moltres Calcs:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Moltres Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Blissey: 243-286 (34 - 40%) -- 33.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
(243, 246, 249, 252, 253, 256, 259, 262, 265, 268, 271, 274, 277, 280, 283, 286)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Moltres Overheat vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Blissey: 282-333 (39.4 - 46.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
(282, 285, 289, 292, 295, 298, 303, 306, 309, 312, 315, 319, 322, 325, 328, 333)

0 Atk Moltres Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 156-184 (21.8 - 25.7%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
(156, 158, 160, 161, 163, 165, 167, 169, 171, 172, 174, 176, 178, 180, 182, 184)

252 Atk Moltres Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 198-233 (27.7 - 32.6%) -- 75.2% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
(198, 200, 202, 205, 207, 209, 212, 214, 216, 219, 221, 223, 226, 228, 230, 233)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Moltres Hidden Power Fighting vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Blissey: 190-224 (26.6 - 31.3%) -- 17.2% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
(190, 192, 194, 196, 198, 200, 202, 206, 208, 210, 212, 214, 216, 218, 220, 224)

You're better off using Fire Blast instead of Double-Edge (Strongest Physical option?) or Hidden Power Fighting, although...

252+ SpA Choice Specs Moltres Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Blissey: 153-180 (21.4 - 25.2%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
(153, 154, 156, 157, 159, 162, 163, 165, 166, 168, 171, 172, 174, 175, 177, 180)

You could try to Flinch Blissey to death, but Air Slash does not have 100% Accuracy...
Heatran Calcs:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Blissey: 249-294 (34.8 - 41.1%) -- 68.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
(249, 252, 255, 258, 261, 264, 267, 270, 273, 276, 279, 282, 285, 288, 291, 294)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Blissey: 312-367 (43.6 - 51.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
(312, 315, 319, 322, 327, 330, 333, 337, 340, 345, 348, 352, 355, 360, 363, 367)
My Thoughts:
Blissey just plain walls the Fire Types, switch to something that can handle Blissey.
-------------------------
Hippowdon:
Typing: Ground
Stats: 108/112/118/68/72/47
Outspeeds: Nothing
Calcs:
Moltres Calcs:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Moltres Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 277-327 (65.9 - 77.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(277, 280, 283, 286, 291, 294, 297, 300, 303, 306, 310, 313, 316, 319, 322, 327)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Moltres Overheat vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 322-381 (76.6 - 90.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(322, 327, 330, 334, 339, 342, 346, 349, 354, 357, 361, 364, 369, 372, 376, 381)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Moltres Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 216-256 (51.4 - 60.9%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(216, 220, 222, 224, 226, 230, 232, 234, 238, 240, 242, 244, 248, 250, 252, 256)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Moltres Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 174-205 (41.4 - 48.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
(174, 175, 178, 180, 181, 184, 186, 189, 190, 192, 195, 196, 198, 201, 202, 205)

You could try Air Slash to Flinch Hippowdon, then use Fire Blast to KO oops, forgot the Specs, but maybe a Life Orb could help too...
Heatran Calcs:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 224-264 (53.3 - 62.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(224, 226, 228, 232, 234, 236, 240, 242, 244, 248, 250, 252, 256, 258, 260, 264)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 286-337 (68 - 80.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(286, 289, 292, 297, 300, 303, 306, 310, 313, 316, 319, 324, 327, 330, 333, 337)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 357-420 (85 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
(357, 360, 364, 369, 373, 378, 381, 385, 390, 394, 399, 402, 406, 411, 415, 420)

Better off using Fire Attack instead of Hidden Power

Hippowdon needs 419/418/416 HP and 215/251 (requires a positive nature)/267 (also requires a positive nature) Special Defense to survive Fire Blast/Overheat/Max power Eruption
My Thoughts:
Bulky Pokemon. with max special Bulk, it could be 2HKOed, either setting up SR and then switching out or KOing Moltres/Heatran (mentioned later to possibly heal off the damage, actually, maybe it could Waste PP with Slack Off).
-------------------------
Forretress:
Typing: Bug/Steel
Stats: 75/90/140/60/60/40
Outspeeds: Nothing
Calcs:
Moltres Calcs:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Moltres Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Occa Berry Forretress: 618-728 (174.5 - 205.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(618, 624, 632, 638, 648, 654, 662, 668, 674, 684, 690, 698, 704, 714, 720, 728)

Forretress is NOT surviving any kind of Fire Blast (nor Overheat)
Heatran Calcs:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Occa Berry Forretress: 636-750 (179.6 - 211.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(636, 644, 650, 660, 666, 674, 680, 690, 696, 704, 710, 720, 726, 734, 740, 750)

Forretress is NOT surviving any decent Fire Attack
My Thoughts:
Very Checked by the Fire Type, will probably switch out with a Focus Sash.
-------------------------
Bronzong:
Typing: Steel/Psychic
Stats: 67/89/116/79/116/33
Outspeeds: Nothing
Calcs:
Moltres Calcs:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Moltres Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Bronzong: 408-480 (120.7 - 142%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(408, 410, 416, 420, 426, 432, 434, 440, 444, 450, 456, 458, 464, 468, 474, 480)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Moltres Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 92+ SpD Occa Berry Bronzong: 231-273 (68.3 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(231, 234, 237, 240, 241, 244, 247, 250, 253, 256, 258, 261, 264, 267, 270, 273)

Occa Berry Bronzong need 326 HP and 268 Special Defense to survive Fire Blast (338 HP and 302 Special Defense to survive Overheat)
Heatran Calcs:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 92+ SpD Bronzong: 476-564 (140.8 - 166.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(476, 482, 488, 494, 500, 506, 512, 516, 522, 528, 534, 540, 546, 552, 558, 564)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 92+ SpD Occa Berry Bronzong: 238-282 (70.4 - 83.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(238, 241, 244, 247, 250, 253, 256, 258, 261, 264, 267, 270, 273, 276, 279, 282)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Overheat vs. 252 HP / 92+ SpD Occa Berry Bronzong: 279-328 (82.5 - 97%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(279, 282, 285, 288, 291, 295, 298, 301, 304, 307, 312, 315, 318, 321, 324, 328)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 92+ SpD Occa Berry Bronzong: 297-351 (87.8 - 103.8%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
(297, 301, 304, 307, 312, 315, 318, 322, 325, 328, 333, 336, 339, 343, 346, 351)

Occa Berry Bronzong needs 337/338/338 HP and 268/311/333 (require a positive nature) Special Defense to survive Fire Blast/Overheat/Max power Eruption
My Thoughts:
Can only survive with an Occa Berry and maybe set up SR, Rain Dance, Light Screen/Reflect, or Trick Room, then switch out.
-------------------------

What more should I test?
 
Last edited:
That's certainly a thorough treatment of something, although so far it's just stat comparisons and not the money numbers (damage calcs). Plus what set would Moltres run? It'd need HP Ground for lead SR Heatran and HP Grass for lead Swampert (I think it's rare now but was kinda popular back in the day), so the reliance on Hidden Power makes it a pretty poor lead attacker. Not to mention that I think modern DPP has trended away from such strong emphasis on pure leads and focused more on whole-game usefulness. Moltres kinda stinks at the latter because if the foe does manage to get Rocks up, it's got 2 more switch-ins, tops. Plus, Choice Specs means it can't really threaten a wide variety of things, so it gets forced out quickly, which is generally not what you want out of a lead.

Somebody who knows more about DPP can probably be more succinct in telling you where to go with DPP or how to think about things, though.
 
Moltres hardly beats even half of the most popular Stealth Rock leads: Azelf outspeeds and can Explode after SR to trade, TTar and Aero straight-up laugh, one of Swampert or Heatran force you out depending on your choice of Hidden Power. (You beat Metagross, Jirachi, kinda Hippowdon and the other of S/H.) Being faster and stronger than Heatran isn't all it takes to be an effective anti-SR lead, in fact Heatran may still be a better lead. The matchups are slightly worse, you pick up Azelf in exchange for being forced out by Hippo and S/H becoming more scary (Swampert OHKOs and the mirror is a coin flip), but you have access to Explosion/Taunt and your own SR. Heatran is also simply better in general.

Quite frankly, you're just best off conceding that SR will go up anyway. The only "guaranteed" methods of stopping Turn 1 SR is Taunt Electrode or dumb Scarf Breloom. Take the kill, play 6-5 and use a Rapid Spinner to remove the hazards later if they're bothersome to you

Is Moltres still the best at strictly KOing suicide SR leads? I can't say I know the answer, since I sure don't give a damn either way, but my guess is no. Machamp is probably better at that, which is why it is a popular lead itself, because it can 2HKO most of them (sometimes with priority on Turn 2 to avoid any damage) and also lolconfusionhax the slower setters. Anything utilizing powerful Fighting-, Water- or Ground-type (with aerial coverage) attacks would be pretty good since those are the least resisted typings by typical SR leads.

Those nested Hide tags are also hideous.
 
Yeah, Moltres isn't a candidate for combating/preventing Stealth Rock in the lead position. The small stat differences between it and Heatran mean very little, plus the speed on Moltres doesn't do much with its typing and movepool, except when using the Choice Scarf. The only thing it can do then is U-turn out of Azelf, which is alright, but it still doesn't prevent him from using it. Same can be said for many other SR leads, Moltres can't threaten them with a OHKO. You're then stuck with dealing with the huge Rock weakness down the road when Heatran doesn't have this problem.

Preventing an instant Stealth Rock isn't something you should sweat over, really. If you can block a slow Pokemon from using it (with Taunt, Sleep, etc.), that's just fine, but suicide leads like Aerodactyl or Azelf are terrible in reality due to how good Starmie is. If you want to use Moltres, forget about stopping Stealth Rock with it (and use it how you want) and just use Starmie to support it with Rapid Spin (and the best Rapid Spin in OU). Good teams are able to lay down hazards continuously and reliably, so just combating the lead Pokemon is just half that battle.
 
Well, the way I see it (in regards to the Moltres VS. Azelf)
Moltres OHKOs All non-Sash Azelf
Azelf SRs, Moltres KOs, later Spin the Rocks away
Azelf Light Screens, takes a Hit, SRs, then faints
Azelf Explosions, Moltres Faints, No SRs
in the first two scenarios Moltres would not take a hit.
Worst thing Azelf can do is set up Light screen and SR or make the match 5-5
Sadly, Sashed Azelf gives some problems, but I guess U-turn into something like Tyranitar (maybe scarfed?) with pursuit can remove Azelf. I hope I am not missing your point.

Moltres and Heatran could force some pokes to require a type resist berry and significantly bulky spreads in order to survive a hit, but I am not sure how good that is.

I removed some layers of hide tags (yeah there were too many in some places), hopefully, it easier to view this thread (I also added section dividers).

I am thinking about turning this thread into an "Anti-Sr (or hazards in general) thread", but I would like to archive the parts I have so far and try to complete it a bit more.

Are there any UU SR setters I should look at? What should I calc (Specifics please)? any other sets of the listed pokemon I should check?
 
Renwit355 said:
Well, the way I see it (in regards to the Moltres VS. Azelf)
Moltres OHKOs All non-Sash Azelf
Azelf SRs, Moltres KOs, later Spin the Rocks away
Azelf Light Screens, takes a Hit, SRs, then faints
Azelf Explosions, Moltres Faints, No SRs
in the first two scenarios Moltres would not take a hit.
Worst thing Azelf can do is set up Light screen and SR or make the match 5-5
Sadly, Sashed Azelf gives some problems, but I guess U-turn into something like Tyranitar (maybe scarfed?) with pursuit can remove Azelf. I hope I am not missing your point.
Click to expand...

That's pretty much how it could possibly turn out. However, when leading, Azelf would only hold two items. Either the Focus Sash or a Choice item (usually Band or Scarf). The Focus Sash set would always be able to set up Stealth Rock or Screens and see if you outspeed them or not. Whether they die quickly or the hazards get blown away later, Moltres wasn't the clincher. You can get to that result with other Pokemon. Regardless, a Moltres leading will be assumed to be using a Scarf anyway, so they are going to switch out if Azelf will be of no benefit if it stays in.



If you want to see the lead stats (in addition to usage and analysis), go here and scroll down till you find it.

Moltres and Heatran could force some pokes to require a type resist berry and significantly bulky spreads in order to survive a hit, but I am not sure how good that is.
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Literally, the only thing you would have to worry about using an Occa Berry in the lead slot is Metagross (according to December stats, it was the second most used item on it at around 13%).

Really, an opponent will probably know if they can survive an attack from Moltres, whether running Specs or not. The old Physically Defensive Hippowdon set barely has a chance to be OHKO'd by Fire Blast. A lot of people run a little more SpD (we've been dealing with rare LO/Specs Heatran leads for a while). He survives, sets up rocks, switches out, and lives to Slack Off another day. If someone is weak to any of Moltres' moves, then they'll switch out.

That said, I wouldn't use Choice Specs on Moltres lead to KO stuff, just use the Scarf to make good use of U-turn early and then help clean up late game after making sure rocks stay off the field.


Are there any UU SR setters I should look at? What should I calc (Specifics please)? any other sets of the listed pokemon I should check?
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In the OU environment, nothing, unless you think below 1% lead usage is a good enough reason for the UU Mons. Personally, I'd only consider the top 10 leads and would simply acknowledge the next 10 after that.
 
Moltres is a pretty good lead but it's not about preventing SR as much as it is throwing around powerful attacks before SR goes up and maybe luring some things. Life Orb is the best on it since you still hit hard as fuck while being able to switch moves.
 
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