OU Haxorus

Jaroda

Jaroda

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Overview
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In a tier rife with Dragons of all shapes and sizes, Haxorus maintains several noteworthy traits over its dragon brethren. It retains the highest Attack stat of all non-legendary Dragon-types, surpassed only by Kyurem-B and Mega Garchomp, neither of which have access to Dragon Dance. Haxorus's pure Dragon typing, being oddly uncommon, makes it far less susceptible to non-STAB Ice attacks that are often carried for the likes of Dragonite and Garchomp. Furthermore, Haxorus's relatively rare ability, Mold Breaker, allows it to disregard Pokemon with otherwise problematic abilities like Levitate Rotom-W, Filter Mega Aggron, Unaware Clefable, numerous Sturdy users, and Multiscale Dragonite. However, Haxorus is not without its faults. Haxorus's overall lack of bulk means that it is easily 2HKOed by strong neutral hits and is potentially vulnerable while setting up. Fairy-types will also make you hesitate to use Outrage, meaning that it isn't just the ubiquitous Steel-types it needs to worry about anymore. While Haxorus has enough coverage options to handle most Steel- and Fairy-types, it can't cover everything and can find itself hard-walled without the right team support. Base 97 Speed is acceptable for wallbreaking and sufficient with enough boosts to clean up late-game with an unresisted Outrage. Haxorus has the right stats, ability, moves, and typing to perform its role very well.

Dragon Dance
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name: Dragon Dance
move 1: Dragon Dance
move 2: Outrage
move 3: Earthquake
move 4: Taunt / Poison Jab
ability: Mold Breaker
item: Life Orb / Lum Berry
nature: Adamant / Jolly
evs: 16 HP / 252 Atk / 240 Spe

Moves
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Dragon Dance is Haxorus's boosting move of choice, giving it the power and Speed he needs to rip through weakened walls and slower sweepers. Earthquake is great for handling Steel-types like Aegislash, Heatran, and Klefki, and is also great for hitting Rotom-W. Taunt completely shuts down would-be walls like Skarmory that don't carry Brave Bird, helping Haxorus nab additional boosts. For wallbreaking or sweeping, Outrage will benefit Haxorus the most with its insane power, as Dragon Claw and Dual Chop severely lack power in general and prevent Haxorus from fulfilling its role.

Set Details
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Dragon Dance is the better boosting move to let Haxorus compete with hyper-offensive teams, as the Speed boosts are crucial. Once Haxorus ideally gets to +2, simply use Outrage, assuming no Fairy-types remain, and never look back. 240 Speed EVs maintains an advantage over Jolly Dragonite and other max Speed base 80s as well as Jolly Gyarados, and max Speed Kyurem-B if you choose a Jolly nature. Life Orb gives Haxorus some extra oomph and compensates in situations where it can't get as many desired Dragon Dances in, helping it continue its rampage. Haxorus is still threatening without boosts against slow or weakened Pokemon like Heatran and Tyranitar with Earthquake, or Breloom with Poison Jab. Taunt often makes slow walls like Chansey and Skarmory switch out, giving Haxorus breathing room to boost.

Usage Tips
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Haxorus requires safe opportunities to boost to overpower sturdy walls and bypass faster and frailer threats. Getting two Dragon Dances is your goal and is often enough to shift the odds in your favor against many would-be checks and counters. A weakened team with Steel- and Fairy-types eradicated simply cannot stand up to its mighty Outrage. Don't try to switch Haxorus into anything, and ideally remove priority users beforehand. A slow Volt Switch or U-turn is a reliable method of getting Haxorus in unscathed against favorable matchups. Rotom-W can be Taunted and often has to Volt Switch out as a result, which Haxorus fortunately resists. Heatran fears Earthquake, and Air Balloon versions can safely be Taunted and thus are unable to use Substitute, Will-O-Wisp, or Roar. Having Stealth Rock is generally helpful against priority users such as Talonflame and Dragonite. Zapdos carries no threatening moves and is easy to set up against, with Taunt as insurance. Ferrothorn that lack Gyro Ball are also pure setup and Taunt bait, and Earthquake doesn't activate Iron Barbs or incur Rocky Helmet damage.

Team Options
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Most Steel-types protect Haxorus from all three of its weaknesses. Heatran's plethora of resistances and great bulk make it a reliable team player with Fire STAB for other Steel-types and the ability to lay Stealth Rock. Any U-turn or Volt Switch user can help get Haxorus in for free against an unwilling opponent, allowing for more boosting opportunities. Rotom-W is a popular choice that is easy to fit onto most teams and is a good answer for Talonflame, Scizor, Air Balloon Heatran, and Landorus-T, slows down faster enemies with Thunder Wave, and can scout with Volt Switch. Rotom-H similarly handles Talonflame but is also great against many Steel-types such as Scizor, Skarmory, and Ferrothorn, handily resisting their common moves and threatening to OHKO with Overheat. Being immune to burn as well as paralysis like Rotom-W is also beneficial. Landorus-T can prompt switches with Intimidate and can U-turn Haxorus in safely on top of setting up Stealth Rock. Klefki protects you from opposing Dragon, Fairy, and Ice attacks, has access to Prankster Thunder Wave, can set up dual screens for Haxorus to boost behind more safely, and is particularly good against Greninja that lack Hidden Power Fire. Deoxys-S can lay entry hazards, set up dual screens, and outpace even the fastest unboosted threats.


Stallbreaker
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name: Stallbreaker
move 1: Swords Dance
move 2: Outrage / Dual Chop
move 3: Earthquake
move 4: Poison Jab / Taunt
ability: Mold Breaker
item: Lum Berry / Life Orb
nature: Adamant / Jolly
evs: 16 HP / 252 Atk / 240 Spe

Moves
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Swords Dance with Mold Breaker makes Haxorus an insane wallbreaker and the most potent Dragon-type capable of defeating Fairy-types. Outrage is for maddening power, but Dual Chop is better for handling Substitute and Focus Sash users, especially Substitute Kyurem-B. Earthquake hits the majority of Steel-types and +2 Poison Jab makes short work of even Unaware Clefable, Azumarill, Togekiss, and Sylveon.

Set Details
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For pure wallbreaking purposes, Swords Dance gives Haxorus the power it needs to be one hell of an anti-stall Pokemon. Lum Berry is a great item to let Haxorus boost in the face of slower walls that would depend on a burn or Toxic to cripple it, and is recommended if Haxorus forgoes Taunt. Otherwise, use Life Orb to wallbreak better. However, Lum Berry does cure confusion caused by Outrage, so keep that in mind. 240 Speed EVs keeps Haxorus faster than max Speed neutral-natured Kyurem-B, which can be crucial without Dragon Dance to boost its Speed, and a Jolly nature guarantees it. Mold Breaker is by far Haxorus's best and most consistent ability, ignoring Sturdy, Multiscale, Magic Bounce, Unaware, and Levitate.

Usage Tips
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As a pure stallbreaker set, Haxorus is forgoing Speed for power. Use a Lum Berry to setup in the face of would-be threats, and after it has taken out Steel- and Fairy-types with Earthquake and Poison Jab you are free to demolish with Outrage. Chansey can waste a turn trying to use Toxic if Haxorus has a Lum Berry, and a +2 Outrage is a guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock or with Life Orb and no Stealth Rock. Using an unboosted Earthquake on Aegislash is risky at +0 if it is a Weakness Policy set, so it is generally recommended to boost first. Thundurus is OHKOed by Outrage no matter what, so don't attempt to use Swords Dance when it has priority Taunt and instead hope it wastes a turn using Thunder Wave or Nasty Plot.

Team Options
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Stallbreaker Haxorus struggles against hyper-offensive teams, and as such wants naturally fast partners and priority users. Assault Vest Conkeldurr is great for sponging some special hits as well as status effects and has Mach Punch. Mega Aggron is also very bulky and has Thunder Wave and Dragon Tail to slow down or phaze the opponent. Bisharp threatens Fairy-types and Defog users with Defiant and has Sucker Punch. Deoxys-S is a great dual screens user and can lay some entry hazards for easier KOes, as well as threaten fast and frail threats like Keldeo, Landorus, Thundurus, Terrakion, and Greninja. Talonflame is one of the best priority users around, and Tailwind makes Haxorus immediately more threatening and better suited for fighting balance and heavy offense. Klefki has access to priority Thunder Wave and dual screens while resisting all of Haxorus's weaknesses. If you opt to have a Chansey for Wish, Aromatherapy, and Natural Cure support, you can rationalize forgoing Lum Berry for Life Orb. Choice Scarf Excadrill is a natural at handling fast threats and can spin the opponent's entry hazards away while preserving your own. Focus Sash Alakazam is also insanely fast and is able to revenge kill or eliminate fast sweepers with strong special attacks. Terrakion is also a fast teammate that doesn't particularly mind Talonflame's priority and even benefits from Sucker Punch, courtesy of Justified.

Other Options
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Low Kick is Haxorus's best attack against Ferrothorn and can OHKO Mamoswine and Mega Gyarados at +1, as well as hitting Heatran that carry Air Balloon. Rock Slide is a fair choice on Choice Scarf sets, being able to hit many of the faster 4x weak Pokemon like Charizard Y, Talonflame, and Volcarona with the potential to flinch. Superpower with Swords Dance is the most efficient way to consistently deal with Skarmory, but offers little else. Dragon Claw is Haxorus's most conservative and reliable STAB move if you hate Outrage's lock-in and Dual Chop's accuracy, but it comes with a severe reduction in power. Aqua Tail provides good neutral coverage with Dragon-type attacks and can be particularly useful against Air Balloon Heatran and Excadrill, but leaves Haxorus walled by Azumarill and Ferrothorn.

Checks & Counters
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**Airborne Steel-types** Whether it be Skarmory or Pokemon like Aegeslash with Air Balloon, Haxorus's most common sets are not tailored to handling these obstacles. Without Taunt for Skarmory or Aqua Tail for Air Balloon Heatran and Excadrill, Haxorus will be hard-pressed to come out on top.

**Speedy Sweepers** Pokemon with immediate access to Speed and power like Keldeo, Landorus, and Greninja will demolish stallbreaker sets, and even then certain Choice Scarf users like Garchomp and priority users can take advantage of Dragon Dance Haxorus, even after a boost. Requiring setup time to be effective puts Haxorus at an immediate disadvantage against most Pokemon that outspeed it.
 
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Put this in Bullet Points please.

Also for set order:

- DD
- Choice Band
- Swords Dance
- Scarf

Scarf and SD can be swapped around too.
 
I would add Swords Dance Haxorus back in. Dragon Dance has a huge problem of being too slow to be really great and it doesn't help that Genesect U-turn's for days. I'm not saying that it's bad and that Swords Dance isn't much better, but in cases of busting through bulkier teams SD Haxorus is sick against them.

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name: Swords Dance
move 1: Swords Dance
move 2: Earthquake
move 3: Poison Jab
move 4: Dragon Claw
ability: Mold Breaker
item: Lum Berry
nature: Jolly
evs: 20 HP / 252 At / 236 Spd

This is exactly what I've been using but don't mind opting for Adamant either. Lum Berry is really clutch because it allows free setup against a lot of shit like Rotom-W. I would still keep it under Choice Band.
 
Overview
Where are the cons? Haxorus has an unremarkable Speed stat that puts it before the tons of base 100-120 Pokemon in the tier, (including the big one, Genesect) is relatively frail, and faces serious competition from the other physical Dragon-types. There's also the fact that Fairy-types forced it to run Poison Jab, and effectively killed Choice Band. Choice Scarf Genesect probably needs amention as the ultimate Dragon Dance cock blocker. The rest is good (though I wouldn't bother mention Quagsire)

Set Details
Good call on using Jolly as a nature (The ability to beat Timid Scarf Rotom-W & Landorus-T is great), but you can use even more HP. 72 HP / 252 Atk / 208 Spe is the spread myself and Fuzznip decided on. It lets you outspeed Scarf Landorus-T, in addition to avoiding the OHKOing from CB Brave Bird Talonflame (without Stealth Rock)

Your set details section is way too thin. These 2 sentences for example;
Lum Berry gives you security in the face of Will-O-Wisp and Thunder Wave and often give you a free turn to boost.
Lum Berry will cure your confusion from Outrage as a fail safe if your enemy can't status you.
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Can be condensed into a single sentence. You can add much more here; Life Orb, Yache Berry, and an alternate EV spread (more HP to lower the chance of getting OHKOed by Talonflame) and a different nature).
As an end game sweeper Outrage will benefit you the most with its insane power, but Dragon Claw is always there as an option if you are more conservative.
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You can elaborate here, stating that Dragon Claw is the conservative choice is not enough imo. Outrage has tons of power (and more necessary now that Jolly is the primary nature) but it makes you vulnerable to Fairy-types (after you KO a Pokemon with outrage, Fairy-types can trap you). Dragon Claw doesn't have that downside, but it's also pretty weak, even at +1. You should also mention Low Kick which lets you target Ferrothorn.

Usage tips
DD Haxorus is not an endgame sweeper. It's a breaker; it sets up whenever it gets the chance (against a defensive Rotom-W or whatever) and tries to do as much damage as possible. It "can" sweep, but sweeping is not its priority. Poison Jab hits more than just Togekiss; it also targets Azumarill and Clefable (who is becoming increasingly more relevant)
A weakened team with its Steels and Fairies eradicated simply can not stand up to its mighty Outrage and the Lum Berry lets you shrug off status at crucial moments allowing you to preserve your sweep.
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The first part is useful, but you can cut out the rest. You should state that a team that can weaken Steel-types is helpful for Haxorus.

Team Options
Rotom-W should get a specific mention in the Team Options section. It counters most of the physical walls in the tier (Skarmory), and is a solid check to Talonflame, who happens to be one of the best DD Haxorus checks. Heatran also deserves a mention for its ability to check opposing Dragon-types and counter Genesect and destroy most Steel-types.
Your checks & counters section is missing Ferrothorn (probably one of the best Haxorus checks now).

Checks & Counters
Choice Band Scizor and Talonflame have the only priority attacks capable of dealing more than 50% damage to your health, so try to eliminate them before sweeping.
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CB Talonflame does a lot more than just "more than 50%" it can OHKO! It's one of the best DD Haxorus checks.

Choice Band is simply not viable now. Place it in OO.
 
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PK Gaming said:
Overview
Where are the cons? Haxorus has an unremarkable Speed stat that puts it before the tons of base 100-120 Pokemon in the tier, (including the big one, Genesect) is relatively frail, and faces serious competition from the other physical Dragon-types. There's also the fact that Fairy-types forced it to run Poison Jab, and effectively killed Choice Band. Choice Scarf Genesect probably needs amention as the ultimate Dragon Dance cock blocker. The rest is good (though I wouldn't bother mention Quagsire)
Set Details
Good call on using Jolly as a nature (The ability to beat Timid Scarf Rotom-W & Landorus-T is great), but you can use even more HP. 72 HP / 252 Atk / 208 Spe is the spread myself and Fuzznip decided on. It lets you outspeed Scarf Landorus-T, in addition to avoiding the OHKOing from CB Brave Bird Talonflame (without Stealth Rock)

Your set details section is way too thin. These 2 sentences for example;

Can be condensed into a single sentence. You can add much more here; Life Orb, Yache Berry, and an alternate EV spread (more HP to lower the chance of getting OHKOed by Talonflame) and a different nature).

You can elaborate here, stating that Dragon Claw is the conservative choice is not enough imo. Outrage has tons of power (and more necessary now that Jolly is the primary nature) but it makes you vulnerable to Fairy-types (after you KO a Pokemon with outrage, Fairy-types can trap you). Dragon Claw doesn't have that downside, but it's also pretty weak, even at +1. You should also mention Low Kick which lets you target Ferrothorn.

Usage tips
DD Haxorus is not an endgame sweeper. It's a breaker; it sets up whenever it gets the chance (against a defensive Rotom-W or whatever) and tries to do as much damage as possible. It "can" sweep, but sweeping is not its priority. Poison Jab hits more than just Togekiss; it also targets Azumarill and Clefable (who is becoming increasingly more relevant)

The first part is useful, but you can cut out the rest. You should state that a team that can weaken Steel-types is helpful for Haxorus.

Team Options
Rotom-W should get a specific mention in the Team Options section. It counters most of the physical walls in the tier (Skarmory), and is a solid check to Talonflame, who happens to be one of the best DD Haxorus checks. Heatran also deserves a mention for its ability to check opposing Dragon-types and counter Genesect and destroy most Steel-types.
Your checks & counters section is missing Ferrothorn (probably one of the best Haxorus checks now).

Checks & Counters

CB Talonflame does a lot more than just "more than 50%" it can OHKO! It's one of the best DD Haxorus checks.

Choice Band is simply not viable now. Place it in OO.
Click to expand...
I made a lot of the changes you suggested.

When I said Poison Jab is for Togekiss, I meant it was required to even hit it at all is all.

So you want me to remove the Choice Band section entirely? Or should I change it to a Scarf analysis? Scarf tends to lack too much power and super effective coverage imo to be a great set.
 
For OO I would make Swords Dance the first thing you mention. Swords Dance Haxorus trades bypassing Speed tiers for obliterating heftier targets (the exception being Skarmory to an extent, though SD + Taunt still works). Choice Band you can mention being outclassed by Garchomp, Dragonite, and Kyurem-B (the latter especially).
 
I made a lot of the changes you suggested.
When I said Poison Jab is for Togekiss, I meant it was required to even hit it at all is all.
So you want me to remove the Choice Band section entirely? Or should I change it to a Scarf analysis? Scarf tends to lack too much power and super effective coverage imo to be a great set.
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You should have implemented all of the changes I suggested :|

To start, you completely ignored my point about Haxorus, in regards to being a lategame sweeper. Haxorus is not an lategame sweeper.
DD Haxorus is not an endgame sweeper. It's a breaker; it sets up whenever it gets the chance (against a defensive Rotom-W or whatever) and tries to do as much damage as possible. It "can" sweep, but sweeping is not its priority.
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Team Options
There's no mention of Rotom-W/H being able to counter Skarmory, one of Haxorus's best counters. I don't like how Rotom-W barely gets a passing when Rotom-H gets a much more detailed write up. The former is much more relevant in OU, and people are far more likely to use it as a teamate for Haxorus. Mention that Rotom-W is an solid partner due to its ability to switch into the Pokemon that check or counter Haxorus (such as Skarmory, Landorus-T, Scizor & Togekiss) in addition to luring out Ferrothorn. Then expound on that point and mention that Rotom-H can do the same, as well as check Genesect and straight up counter Ferrothorn. You also ignored mentioning Heatran, arguably Haxorus's best partner.
72 HP can avoid CB Talnflame Brave Bird from full health.
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Keep in mind that Talonflame can still OHKO Haxorus after Stealth Rock damage. The point of the HP investment is to give Haxorus a bit of extra bulk. Avoiding the OHKO from Choice Band Talonflame is just an example of that.
Poison Jab is necessary to hit Togekiss and is your best option against any Fairy barring Klefki.
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You should mention more relevant Poison Jab targets, such as Azumarill & Clefable.
Rock Slide is a fair choice on Choice Scarf sets able to hit many of the faster 4x weak pokes like Charizard Y, Talonflame and Volcarona.
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You can't outrun Talonflame remember?
Colonel M said:
Choice Band you can mention being outclassed by Garchomp, Dragonite, and Kyurem-B (the latter especially).
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Choice Band Haxorus isn't directly outclassed by any of these Pokemon (especially the latter). What the thread writer has down is fine.
 
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Choice Band Haxorus isn't directly outclassed by any of these Pokemon (especially the latter). What the thread writer has down is fine.
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How so, especially on Kyurem-B? Aside from the Ice-typing creating minor issues Kyurem-B is bulkier, has access to Terravolt which is equivalent to Mold Breaker, and can bypass Pokemon that otherwise trouble Choice Band Haxorus without relying on a lock with Outrage.

With Dragonite it has access to Superpower to at least equal out Haxorus having access to Low Kick / Superpower while bragging Multiscale and ExtremeSpeed for priority attacking.

Garchomp has good dual STABs and access to Fire Fang to completely ignore Ferrothorn while denting Skarmory switch-ins.

I don't see how it is anything but directly outclassed. The only difference is missing the secondary typing and having more Speed than some of them. Sure the mentioned mons have a lot of Pokemon that have immunities. And I get that. But Kyurem-B too? Tell me how many Landorus-Ts will switch into Kyurem-B UNLESS THEY KNOW Fusion Bolt is coming 100% of the way? I would be nervous for sure with it capable of packing Ice Beam and Outrage doing a fuckton to it.

But w/e what he has is fine anyway. Gets the point across yada yada.
 
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PK Gaming said:
You should have implemented all of the changes I suggested :|

To start, you completely ignored my point about Haxorus, in regards to being a lategame sweeper. Haxorus is not an lategame sweeper.

Team Options
There's no mention of Rotom-W/H being able to counter Skarmory, one of Haxorus's best counters. I don't like how Rotom-W barely gets a passing when Rotom-H gets a much more detailed write up. The former is much more relevant in OU, and people are far more likely to use it as a teamate for Haxorus. Mention that Rotom-W is an solid partner due to its ability to switch into the Pokemon that check or counter Haxorus (such as Skarmory, Landorus-T, Scizor & Togekiss) in addition to luring out Ferrothorn. Then expound on that point and mention that Rotom-H can do the same, as well as check Genesect and straight up counter Ferrothorn. You also ignored mentioning Heatran, arguably Haxorus's best partner.

Keep in mind that Talonflame can still OHKO Haxorus after Stealth Rock damage. The point of the HP investment is to give Haxorus a bit of extra bulk. Avoiding the OHKO from Choice Band Talonflame is just an example of that.

You should mention more relevant Poison Jab targets, such as Azumarill & Clefable.

You can't outrun Talonflame remember?

Choice Band Haxorus isn't directly outclassed by any of these Pokemon (especially the latter). What the thread writer has down is fine.
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Updated again. Emphasis on wallbreaking with potential for sweeping. Partners and checks expounded on. Full detail on the Azumarill and Clefable match ups.

Sorry, I didn't intend to ignore your changes or the partners you listed. I was doing a lot of editing and they simply fell under my radar. My apologies, thank you for your insight. :)
 
Colonel M said:
How so, especially on Kyurem-B? Aside from the Ice-typing creating minor issues Kyurem-B is bulkier, has access to Terravolt which is equivalent to Mold Breaker, and can bypass Pokemon that otherwise trouble Choice Band Haxorus without relying on a lock with Outrage.

With Dragonite it has access to Superpower to at least equal out Haxorus having access to Low Kick / Superpower while bragging Multiscale and ExtremeSpeed for priority attacking.

Garchomp has good dual STABs and access to Fire Fang to completely ignore Ferrothorn while denting Skarmory switch-ins.

I don't see how it is anything but directly outclassed. The only difference is missing the secondary typing and having more Speed than some of them. Sure the mentioned mons have a lot of Pokemon that have immunities. And I get that. But Kyurem-B too? Tell me how many Landorus-Ts will switch into Kyurem-B UNLESS THEY KNOW Fusion Bolt is coming 100% of the way? I would be nervous for sure with it capable of packing Ice Beam and Outrage doing a fuckton to it.

But w/e what he has is fine anyway. Gets the point across yada yada.
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Well to start, Kyurem-B's weakness to Stealth Rock makes it harder to utilize as a choice user. Without a Rapid Spin/Defog user, it won't be able to switch in & out of battle. This is a necessary prerequisite that Haxorus doesn't need. I don't understand what you're trying to convey with your second sentence. Kyurem-B can't use Terravolt like Haxorus can; it can't use Earthquake against Levitate users, for example. But that's besides the point, the biggest thing separating Haxorus from Kyurem-B as a Choice Band is coverage moves. Choice Band Haxorus gets access to Earthquake and Superpower, 2 very strong coverage moves that lets it break through common Steel-types. Kyurem-B is limited to Fusion Bolt, which is handy against Skarmory, but ineffective against Jirachi and Ferrothorn.

Choice Band Haxorus is definitely inferior to Choice Band Dragonite / Garchomp, but claiming that its outclassed is both unnecessary & inaccurate.The QC team was fully aware of this fact, and allowed the Choice Band set to exist in gen V for a reason, in spite of the existence Dragonite and Garchomp.
Jaroda said:
Updated again. Emphasis on wallbreaking with potential for sweeping. Partners and checks expounded on. Full detail on the Azumarill and Clefable match ups.

Sorry, I didn't intend to ignore your changes or the partners you listed. I was doing a lot of editing and they simply fell under my radar. My apologies, thank you for your insight. :)
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That's fine, just make sure you read over the entire post next time.
QC 1/3
 
Fair enough. I just figured that Haxorus isn't that appealing as CB user to begin with when those three exist. :|
 
Keep in mind I'm not QC, nor am I speaking off of experience here (most of this is based off of Antar's monthly usage stat report). Bear with me as I math my way through this.

How viable could Coba Berry be? With all of this talk of how much of a counter Talonflame is to Haxorus, I decided to do some research. The only three somewhat commonly seen Pokemon that really threaten Haxorus with status moves are physically defensive Rotom-W (the only variant that survives a +1 EQ), Sableye, and Klefki with T-wave. Assuming their usages are independent of one another (I checked Antar's stat analysis page to make sure this could be reasonably assumed), the formula to calculate the chances of running into at least one of them is (physically defensive Rotom-W usage) + (Klefki with T-wave usage) + (Sableye usage) - (all three multiplied together).

This gets us (.2382327*.10006)+(.0427614*.84549)+(.0395618)-(.2382327*.10006*.0427614*.84549*.0395618)=.0995 (rounded).
So in roughly 1 in 10 battles, Lum Berry will let Haxorus continue its rampage.

In comparison, Talonflame's usage is .1667180, and the probability that any random Talonflame is holding CB is .29599. To get the chances of running into CB Talonflame on the ladder, we multiply those probabilties, getting us .0493 (rounded).
So in roughly 1 in 20 battles Coba Berry will be near-guaranteed to save Haxorus's life. This isn't even accounting for situations in which Haxorus has taken previous damage while setting up and needs to get past Talonflame, in which case we can just use Talonflame's usage (.1667180) to get a pretty accurate representation of how many times Coba Berry would be used. This gives 1 out of every 6 battles, significantly more frequent than Lum Berry.

Considering that the current spread has too many EVs as it is, a Coba berry can also let Haxorus run less HP EVs with far less fear of being revenge killed.

I'm not QC, and again I've never tried this out for myself so I really have no idea whether it's good in practice, so I don't know whether it should be slashed or mentioned in set details or OO or not mentioned at all. I'll let you guys decide that.
 
CyclicCompound said:
Keep in mind I'm not QC, nor am I speaking off of experience here (most of this is based off of Antar's monthly usage stat report). Bear with me as I math my way through this.

How viable could Coba Berry be? With all of this talk of how much of a counter Talonflame is to Haxorus, I decided to do some research. The only three somewhat commonly seen Pokemon that really threaten Haxorus with status moves are physically defensive Rotom-W (the only variant that survives a +1 EQ), Sableye, and Klefki with T-wave. Assuming their usages are independent of one another (I checked Antar's stat analysis page to make sure this could be reasonably assumed), the formula to calculate the chances of running into at least one of them is (physically defensive Rotom-W usage) + (Klefki with T-wave usage) + (Sableye usage) - (all three multiplied together).

This gets us (.2382327*.10006)+(.0427614*.84549)+(.0395618)-(.2382327*.10006*.0427614*.84549*.0395618)=.0995 (rounded).
So in roughly 1 in 10 battles, Lum Berry will let Haxorus continue its rampage.

In comparison, Talonflame's usage is .1667180, and the probability that any random Talonflame is holding CB is .29599. To get the chances of running into CB Talonflame on the ladder, we multiply those probabilties, getting us .0493 (rounded).
So in roughly 1 in 20 battles Coba Berry will be near-guaranteed to save Haxorus's life. This isn't even accounting for situations in which Haxorus has taken previous damage while setting up and needs to get past Talonflame, in which case we can just use Talonflame's usage (.1667180) to get a pretty accurate representation of how many times Coba Berry would be used. This gives 1 out of every 6 battles, significantly more frequent than Lum Berry.

Considering that the current spread has too many EVs as it is, a Coba berry can also let Haxorus run less HP EVs with far less fear of being revenge killed.

I'm not QC, and again I've never tried this out for myself so I really have no idea whether it's good in practice, so I don't know whether it should be slashed or mentioned in set details or OO or not mentioned at all. I'll let you guys decide that.
Click to expand...

Coba only activates if you're weak to the Flying move, so this wouldn't work unfortunately.

Haxorus shouldn't be trying to set-up if Talonflame is still alive anyway imo
 
Luke124x said:
There's 532 EV's into this spread. Since you mentioned 72 HP in your Set Details, I assume you meant 184 Speed EV's?
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Very good call on that sir. I used the spread recommended by PK and assuming you are supposed to outspeed Landoros you need 208 Spd, which means you have 48 HP points, which is still enough to withstand CB Talonflame Brave Bird from full health.

Here is something interesting though. With a spread of 236 At / 64 Df / 208 Spd you are never OHKO with CB Talonflame Brave Bird even with Stealth Rock, and it only sacrifices 4 points of attack to achieve that. PK Gaming Do you consider this a worthwhile benchmark assuming you want to maintain the speed advantage over Landorus-T? The points have to be put in Df to survive the attack, it would require a bit more HP EVs to receive the same result.
 
  • Choice Band Scizor and Talonflame have the only priority attacks capable of dealing more than 50% damage to your health, Talonflame capable of OHKO after rocks, so try to eliminate them before sweeping.
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There are other common Pokemon that can do >50%.

Code: 
252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 48 HP / 0 Def Haxorus: 187-221 (61.3 - 72.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 48 HP / 0 Def Haxorus: 158-188 (51.8 - 61.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 48 HP / 0 Def Haxorus: 153-181 (50.1 - 59.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 48 HP / 0 Def Haxorus: 180-212 (59 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Mega Absol Sucker Punch vs. 48 HP / 0 Def Haxorus: 160-189 (52.4 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Admittedly, Sucker Punch can be played around with Dragon Dance, but keep in mind you risk the Play Rough from both Mega Absol and Mega Mawile.
 
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