Hariyama (Specially Defensive)

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Thund91

Thund91

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Been using specially defensive SubPunch Hariyama and I was surprised that there was no Specially Defensive set on-site. I remember there used to be one but I guess it was removed. Specially Defensive Hariyama can make a great comeback because Houndoom is now extremely popular, Spiritomb runs Special Attacks more often (and physical sets are walled anyway), and Restalk Weezing is popular which Hariyama can abuse, so I thought I'd post this set.

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http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/hariyama


[SET]
name: Specially Defensive
move 1: Whirlwind / Bulk Up
move 2: Force Palm / Revenge
move 3: Payback
move 4: Ice Punch
item: Leftovers
ability:Thick Fat / Guts
nature: Careful
evs: 80 HP / 172 Atk / 252 SpD / 4 Spe

Why this set deserves to be on-site:
-Hariyama is a great counter for prominent special threats like Houndoom, Mismagius, and Rotom
-great resistances to Fire, Ice, and Dark allow it many set-up oppurtunities
-can abuse common Pokemon like Spiritomb and Weezing, and other weak walls like Blastoise and Lanturn who fail to hurt it singnificantly
-Force Palm main option as Hariyama is slow and enjoys the potential paralysis, but Revenge is a more powerful option for faster threats and walls like Milotic.
-Payback makes Hariyama one of the best counters to offensive Ghost-types, and hits bulky Psychics hard
-Ice Punch for coverage. Helps against Torterra, Altaria, and especially Venusaur.

Additional comments:
-Alternative spread and moveset of 80 HP / 76 Atk / 252 Spd / 100 Spe, with Substitute over Payback or Ice Punch and Focus Punch as the main STAB, with a mention of Revenge. This allows Hariyama to outspeed 16 Speed Weezing and set up a Sub against it (helpful for Thick Fat versions). After a few Bulk-ups Weezing will be defeated and you will be behind a Substitute.
-Knock Off in the first slot

Teammates and Counters:
-Bulky waters are still useful as Hariyama struggles against Moltres. Milotic is the best choice but Slowbro can help with physical threats and Hariyama resists his Dark and Bug weaknesses.
-Venusaur makes a great partner as he eliminates bulkier threats like Slowbro and Haze Milotic, while Hariyama easily eliminates Registeel and Fire-types.
-Wish Support. Hypno is useful because Hariyama resists his Dark and Bug weak, but Clefable is overall more helpful.
-Haze Milotic can defeat this set, as can Slowbro if Hariyama doesn't have Bulk Up with a few boosts.
-Psychic-types hurt Hariyama greatly. Even with this investment Timid LO Alakazam does a minimum of 87% and has a small chance to OHKO at full health. Offensive Mesprit can also survive a Payback and 2HKO with Psychic. Defensive Uxie can actually lose if it switches in on Bulk Up, doing only 36% Max, making Psychic at best a 4HKO, so only offensive Uxie counter this set (or Uxie utilize physical attacks before a Bulk Up).
-Strong Physical attackers can take out Hariyama before he obtains any boosts like Rhyperior and Hitmonlee.
 
a few things

First, I really do not feel Force palm to be worth it; while paralysis is appreciated, 30% is really not enough IMO. (on the flipside, are Brick Break and Cross Chop worth testing?)

Secondly, spiritomb is by no means setup fodder; it is slower (thus ice punch is your best option) has trick rather often (a fifth of them used it in june), and is far from setup fodder if guts is not run (generally I wisp if they haven't blatantly revealed their orb or run leftovers)

You mention moltres screws it over yet no mention of Rock slide to hit it on the switch (I guess you could say stone edge; I still do not like using it to defend specifically against it, as it can miss and really rock slide is good enough)

Lastly you're speed creeping. Remove the speed effort value :(
 
Breludicolo said:
a few things

First, I really do not feel Force palm to be worth it; while paralysis is appreciated, 30% is really not enough IMO. (on the flipside, are Brick Break and Cross Chop worth testing?)

Secondly, spiritomb is by no means setup fodder; it is slower (thus ice punch is your best option) has trick rather often (a fifth of them used it in june), and is far from setup fodder if guts is not run (generally I wisp if they haven't blatantly revealed their orb or run leftovers)

You mention moltres screws it over yet no mention of Rock slide to hit it on the switch

Lastly you're speed creeping. Remove the speed effort value :(
Click to expand...

Force Palm is the best option we have here. Close Combat isn't useful for a tank Hariyama because you ruin his ability to take hits; the paralysis chance from Force Palm is really handy. Cross Chop has shoddy accuracy and PP. Brick Break would create too many slashes and Revenge is generally better.

Bulk Up and Guts are slashed, and with those two Spiritomb becomes set up fodder. Hariyama is really versatile so you can basically mix and match what you need to fit your team, also with the alternative EV spread and moveset Spiritomb becomes completely useless against this particular Hariyama.

Hariyama doesn't have the moveslot for Rock Slide. It's only used to hit Moltres anyway so Payback / Ice Punch are almost always better. If Rocks are up Moltres also can't switch into two of its moves (Whirlwind will force it out, making it useless, and Force Palm can paralyze it so it's risky). I guess I could mention it in AC though but that's why there are teammate options like Milotic, Chansey, and Clefable.
 
I do remember this was on site, wonder why it was removed?
Anyways, I think you're trying to do too much on one set. You have a special wall, a Bulk UP set, and a bulky Focus Punch set in AC, which should all be their own respective sets.
@B.
'Tomb IS settup fodder for the most part since only WoW will beat you, ONLY if you don't use Guts. Hariyama does not mind having a Choice Band with 120 base Attack.
I would put Revenge in front of FP, as the more reliable move since FP can be rather weak at times. Low Kick is an option too for even more reliability. Rock Slide is only useful on a Moltres switch in which isn't easy to predict I'd think.
And lastly, 4 Speed EVs is not speed creep if you're a base 50. Although if you're using Revenge, you'll probably want to be slower than Registeel/ Regirock/ Chansey to not hit them with crap damage.

Thun'd, youre a ninja
 
I do agree that there is a lot to this set. I guess we can take the mention of the boosting SubPuncher and put it in the AC of the current SubPunch set on site (which is physically defensive).

And I totally forgot Hariyama got Low Kick. <_< Granted it's unreliable against certain Pokemon but I just don't know where to fit it.
 
I think that would work best since that set is really unrelated to special walling and moreso to the SubPunch set.

Hmm, I think Low Kick could be AC since Revenge for the most part will be hitting harder, except notably on the Regis and Rhyperior.
 
Random Pizzaman said:
I think that would work best since that set is really unrelated to special walling and moreso to the SubPunch set.

Hmm, I think Low Kick could be AC since Revenge for the most part will be hitting harder, except notably on the Regis and Rhyperior.
Click to expand...

This is not a necessity though; Revenge always hits for 60 if you're not attacked and 120 if you are... if Rhyperior decides to use Earthquake, you will hit for more

This is why I suggested Brick break and Cross Chop: they both hit with non-variable base powers, unlike revenge and Low Kick while at the same time outdamaging force palm

also if it is meant to come in on spiritomb, it ought to be running guts, not thick fat

Finally I do agree with Random Pizzaman; too much is happening in one set. I would assume that Bulk up plays differently from whirlwind and thick fat from guts (although the latter is a small change)
 
This was definitely on site just a few months back. Why did QC remove it?
 
I posted to remove it. Hariyama didn't work well enough for me special defensively to warrant me keeping it on site. Thick Fat + defensive EV's worked far better for me on my stall teams than the variant you're posting, but to each his own I guess. Other members of UU QC can comment on this set, but I've already made my position clear.
 
I've always used Low Kick as my 'reliable STAB' on both Hariyama and Toxicroak. Here's a list of the Pokemon in UU you'd be wanting to use your Fighting STAB against, and Low Kick's base power against them:

Absol - 60
Aggron - 120
Ambipom - 40
Arcanine - 100
Azumarill - 60
Blastoise - 80
Blaziken - 80
Chansey - 60
Clefable - 60
Cloyster - 100
Donphan - 100
Drapion - 80
Feraligatr - 80
Hariyama - 120
Hitmonlee - 60
Hitmontop - 60
Houndoom - 60
Kabutops - 60
Lanturn - 40
Ludicolo - 80
Milotic - 100
Miltank - 80
Omastar - 60
Poliwrath - 80
Regirock - 120
Registeel - 120
Rhyperior - 120
Steelix - 120
Tangrowth - 100
Torterra - 120

Out of interest, average base power is 84. I wouldn't even consider Force Palm tbh because having a quick glance at the list, the only Pokemon that are hit for less damage than it by Low Kick are Lanturn and Ambipom. Ambipom is 2HKOed by both Force Palm and Low Kick, and so Lanturn is the only one that really matters. However, on the flip side, you now are guaranteed to OHKO Registeel, and about 50% chance to OHKO Steelix and Regirock after SR at +1. Donphan, Milotic, and Torterra are all guaranteed 2HKOs with +1 Low Kick. Vast majority of the time I find Low Kick's perfect accuracy and generally high damage to far outweigh (sigh) its occasional 'inconsistency'.

I've used a Specially Defensive Bulk Up Guts Hariyama for a while now and it has almost always performed well. It is like Machamp in OU, it almost guarantees at least 100% damage to the opposing team in a game, and isn't really set up fodder for anything. I'm fully in support of this set, but I'd like Bulk Up and Low Kick to be emphasized simply because of how effective Hariyama can be in that role.
 
I don't see why Bulk Up needs to be slashed. Bulk Up deserves its own unique set, not as an afterthought on this set.

Close Combat probably should be the main STAB, with maybe Force Palm slashed for paralysis. I mean, you don't see Hitmontop running something silly like Brick Break or Revenge. The power definitely worth it, because you are now so much more threatening to Pokemon like Feraligatr and Sceptile. The Defense drops seem bad on paper, but when it's OHKOing frail sweepers anyways it hardly matters. Even if QC decides Force Palm should be the main option, Close Combat should always be used over those other Fighting moves. Assuming Bulk Up is deslashed (and gets its own set), of course.

(EDIT: I completely forgot about Low Kick, which seems like a happy medium in that it still hits key targets quite hard without dropping defenses. However, I'd still prefer Close Combat because many frail sweepers are also light, so Low Kick doesn't outright OHKO them on the switch, which can be a big deal.)

-Alternative spread and moveset of 80 HP / 76 Atk / 252 Spd / 100 Spe, with Substitute over Payback or Ice Punch and Focus Punch as the main STAB, with a mention of Revenge. This allows Hariyama to outspeed 16 Speed Weezing and set up a Sub against it (helpful for Thick Fat versions). After a few Bulk-ups Weezing will be defeated and you will be behind a Substitute.
Click to expand...

Again, this seems like you're trying to condense too much into one set. SubPunch and Bulk Up sets operate differently enough to warrant different sets. I can appreciate trying to condense analyses, but there's no need to make things messy, especially on something like Hariyama which probably won't have a huge analysis.
 
Yeah, if it were up to me I'd organize it like:

name: Tank (Specially Defensive)
move 1: Close Combat / Force Palm
move 2: Payback
move 3: Ice Punch
move 4: Whirlwind

name: Bulk Up
move 1: Bulk Up
move 2: Low Kick
move 3: Payback
move 4: Ice Punch

name: SubPunch
move 1: Substitute
move 2: Focus Punch
move 3: Payback / Bulk Up
move 4: Ice Punch / Bulk Up
 
So it's settled than, SDS can handle everything. :)

I'll weigh in when the revamp is posted. Guess this can be locked than? :p
 
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