★ Hang On! - Custap Berry Suspect

[Itchy]

Low health, high power ​

It's no secret that Custap Berry has been on people's minds for a while. There were high amounts of discontent on the most recent survey, as well as the last one of the previous meta, and it's been discussed at length ever since it released, both here on the forums as well as the 1v1 discord. Proponents of a ban on Custap Berry claim is it uncompetitive, forcing coinflip decisions with 1/3 double Endure chances on a wrong guess, and unhealthy, forcing otherwise unnecessary adaptations such as Protect on Pokemon that would rather use more coverage. On ladder, where the element of surprise it provides is super valuable, it can be quite frustrating to play around. On the other side, proponents of the status quo argue that such adaptation isn't overbearing. In fact, many Pokemon will already use Protect, Knock Off, and priority moves for other purposes. They may also argue that usage of Custap Berry is largely predictable, since it's most often used on Torrent and Blaze Pokemon like Primarina and Skeledirge, with some usage on other slow, bulky hard-hitters and Sturdy Pokemon like Archaludon. They may also argue its usage in these settings is not sufficient or impactful enough to warrant a ban.

Should it stay? Should it go? You decide! Feel free to chime in here in this thread, or the meta discussion thread
To be added to the voter pool, ladder with the prefix 1Custap and achieve the suspect requirements below.
Click this link when you hit the requirements and DO NOT ladder anymore on the account until a moderator has verified your account
The deadline is Thursday, February 15th at 11:59pm -5

Minimum Games Needed

GXE	Minimum Games
73.5	50
73.8	49
74.1	48
74.4	47
74.7	46
75.0	45
75.3	44
75.6	43
75.9	42
76.2	41
76.5	40
76.8	39
77.1	38
77.4	37
77.7	36
78	35

 

[DEG]

This is why WE should be voting DNB on Custap Berry.

I will be using stats and meta knowledge to back my opinion and will leave a TLDR at the end.

Basically there's echoes framing Custap Berry as an unhealthy and uncompetitive item in the current SV metagame. Apparently, it creates a lot of 5050s and it can be ran on any Pokemon making the majority of games a plain 5050 or cornering the user in making misplays. These statements are wrong in both casual and competitive level of play.

Starting with the higher sample size which is casual play, I delved into ladder statistics to see if there's any surprise user of Custap or if it's really affecting games. For reference here are the stats; https://www.smogon.com/stats/2024-01/moveset/gen91v1-0.txt and https://www.smogon.com/stats/2024-01/gen91v1-0.txt

By clicking on the first link and searching for the item Custap Berry and cross referencing with the second link the top Pokemon we get the following popular Custap Berry users; Archaludon (13%), Primarina (63%), Skeledirge (36%), Sylveon (34%), Urshifu (13%), Sturdy users. The other usage of custap berries on other mons are negligeable due to 1) Very Low percentage of that item on each mon, 2) Very low viability / usage of the Pokemon as a casual pokemon. Custap users on a casual level of play are predictable, and there's not a lot of variability that showcase that the item is used on a lot of Pokemon to predict a 5050 everytime, other Pokemon would rather run any other more viable item for them which making it less of a surprise factor but more of a help for the aforementioned Pokemon. I will write about the top used Pokemon & Custap later on.

On a competitive level of play, I have fetched GC replays and implemented them into the fullifegames scouter; ref: https://fulllifegames.com/Tools/ReplayScouter/#/ then I filtered the revealed Custap Berry. You can visualize the results below;

Custap Berry in GC

Apart from Dragalge and Munkidori, the Custap Berry users in GC obeyed to the general rule of them being predictable and part of the metagame knowledge, Munkidori ref; https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen91v1-2041004497 did not do anything with Custap, however Dragalge won a few games against opposing Dragon-type Pokemon with it. Custap Berry in GC was fairly limited to the Pokemon that were already mentioned so there's nothing out of the ordinary in that tournament.

Doing the same exercise in 1v1 Champs reveals only on usage of Custap Berry on Skeledirge. Not enough data but it follows that people are not using that item a lot. 1v1 Champs B league reveal the same thing, only Archaludon used Custap Berry as of today.

In both Casual and Competitive games, Custap Berry usage is only limited to a fair and predictable amount of Pokemon which is used to knowledge check and be a healthy part of the metagame. A lot of Pokemon would rather use other items; see Booster, WP, Choice Items, Amulet, to nail their MUs and be more consistent.

Now into the Pokemon and if their "different" sets can affect the outcome of the MU alongside outplaying Custap.

This pokemon typing is amazing and custap is a one of the reasons why it is so good alongside its typing and how many threats it can beat. It might mix stuff up with Specs or Resist Berry however it still has linear checks. Pokemon such as Metagross, Arch, Ogerpon, Bolt, Volcanion, Rillaboom, Meowsq, Serp, and Zapdos can consistently beat it while other Pokemon such as Greninja, Hoopa-U, Iron Crown, Ninetales-A, and Ursaluna have really good odds of beating every set with little to no outplaying. It still is a top Pokemon due to its MU spread but it has to do with it typing,and natural bulk that make it that good. Oh Yea and Encore.

Torch+BBurn+Encore is v good ye we get it. But it loses to a lot of Pokemon no matter it sets. It loses due to its typing including against dragon types (bolt, drago), waters (prim, wake, mana, volcanion), some grounds (ursaluna), hoopa-u, urshifu...

No encore so its easier to outplay. Mons that beat it include Steels (Metagross, Arch, iron crown), fires (Volcarona, Skele, Ogerpon-H), Ursaluna, Greninja...

Power Herb is its main set but Custap Berry has some usage. I think Archaludon "problems" go way deeper than Custap spc with Stamina press. Anw, Pokemon such as Hoopa-U, Tusk, Ursaluna, Leech Seeders like Ogerpon/Serp, Iron Crown, Lando-T.. have good odds to beat all its sets.

Not v relevant w/ custap but Fairies take it out easily and other naturally bulky Pokemon.

Sturdy: I won't go much into that cause they don't have encore and can be outplayed p easily.

You don't have to predict nor play any 5050 mindgames with the Custap Users since every one has a plethora of checks and counters no matter what they can normally run. You don't have to predict custap and u don't have to play around custap in a most cases. These Pokemon are LINEAR. Custap Berry usage allow to both Build Check and Knowledge check the players and make you pick the counter and not midground everytime. It adds depth to the game. If one click a midground against Prim and Skele then complain about Custap it's mostly the fault of the player since they knew that these Pokemon would most of the case be running Custap Berry.

Additionally, the argument of Pokemon being in a chokehold with running Protect, prio etc is simply WRONG. Going down the VR, a lot of Pokemon would NATURALLY run these moves due to how they are played. These mons include; Gouging (Bulwrak), Metagross (Prio), Val (Protect), Ogerpon (Encore, Spiky), Nineales-A (Protect), Bolt (Prio), Haxorus (Unnerve), Shifu (prio), other Pokemon do not run tect for custap users, they just don't run it at all. Other bulky mons can fend off the usage of random custap that includes Cress, Corvik, Luna, Drago, and Registeel.

If you don't care about the outcome, you should def reconsider your opinion. The removal of custap for no reason will do more damage than actual good. There's NO concrete evidence and results that showcase that this item is unhealthy. Banning something for little to no reason will damage the metagame as we'd lose the power of some great mons that balance the metagame such as Skele, Sylveon and Primarina which are really good glue Pokemon for no reason.

To RECAP;
- NO concrete evidence of Custap limiting the builder via stats, VR, and metagame trends.
- Custap users are LINEAR and Predictable with a consistent set of checks and counters no matter what they run
- Custap allow a fair knowledge check and create depth allowing the more skilled users to win in the builder and during the clicks.
- HEALTHY item in the game pushing for more limited diversity and keeping the metagame fresh and not too overbearing.

Consider voting DNB, #SAVECUSTAP

 

[Robyn]

snip

This is an extremely well-articulated and well-supported argument in favor of keeping Custap in the tier, thank you for taking the time to put it together. I think that seeing the topic laid out in such objective terms has changed my mind on how I will vote - it's easy to feel like the item is annoyingly common on unpredictable pokemon from anecdotal personal experience, but actual data is much more insightful, especially when we're considering banning something that could remove 3 or more pokemon from the tier. I have one follow-up question that I'm not sure if you have the data to answer (or if it is even possible to answer): how does this analysis compare to Custap in other, past generations? Given that Custap has not been banned in previous generations, if this sort of trend is consistent with or perhaps even better than those past generations, then that is a clear and kind of unarguable indicator that a ban is just fundamentally not necessary based on the item being "unpredictable" and "uncompetitive." Curious if you have data/thoughts on this - either way, I appreciate you laying out your thoughts like this so that it can change minds.

 

[DEG]

This is an extremely well-articulated and well-supported argument in favor of keeping Custap in the tier, thank you for taking the time to put it together. I think that seeing the topic laid out in such objective terms has changed my mind on how I will vote - it's easy to feel like the item is annoyingly common on unpredictable pokemon from anecdotal personal experience, but actual data is much more insightful, especially when we're considering banning something that could remove 3 or more pokemon from the tier. I have one follow-up question that I'm not sure if you have the data to answer (or if it is even possible to answer): how does this analysis compare to Custap in other, past generations? Given that Custap has not been banned in previous generations, if this sort of trend is consistent with or perhaps even better than those past generations, then that is a clear and kind of unarguable indicator that a ban is just fundamentally not necessary based on the item being "unpredictable" and "uncompetitive." Curious if you have data/thoughts on this - either way, I appreciate you laying out your thoughts like this so that it can change minds.

Could be out of topic due to different gens but I believe the item should be studied gen by gen. It's fundamentally the same yes, but the metagame in each generation is inherently different too. Replays being snapped as of yet make data-driven arguments difficult. However, without expending much I believe Custap Berry is fine in SM, ORAS, and BW (50/50 on BW), but it does have a strong influence and hold on SS. I can elaborate more if needed but not in this thread cause this is only for SV.

 

[DMPancake]

at an abstract level, the difference between Focus Sash (banned forever) and Endure + Custap feels very small. Having only "a select set of Pokemon commonly running Custap" doesn't make it any less stupid that any Pokemon on any team can sacrifice a move slot to do the exact same thing that Focus Sash enables.

Is Custap banworthy? Maybe, probably not, there's an entire essay above about how "in most cases" Custap isn't a problem. But there are a staggering number of Pokemon with Endure + Reversal/Flail that you can jumpscare your opponent with. If you get nailed by Custap Flail Komala or Custap Reversal Breloom, that's doesn't feel like "oh man I should have seen that coming", that's just a ridiculous item enabling a strategy that is worse than broken... it's just lame.

 

[DEG]

at an abstract level, the difference between Focus Sash (banned forever) and Endure + Custap feels very small. Having only "a select set of Pokemon commonly running Custap" doesn't make it any less stupid that any Pokemon on any team can sacrifice a move slot to do the exact same thing that Focus Sash enables.

Is Custap banworthy? Maybe, probably not, there's an entire essay above about how "in most cases" Custap isn't a problem. But there are a staggering number of Pokemon with Endure + Reversal/Flail that you can jumpscare your opponent with. If you get nailed by Custap Flail Komala or Custap Reversal Breloom, that's doesn't feel like "oh man I should have seen that coming", that's just a ridiculous item enabling a strategy that is worse than broken... it's just lame.

Well the thing here is that both the examples you mentioned will fail to KO any relevant threat due to the bulky nature of the metagame and these Pokemon being "weak". There's also still the type advantage playing in your favor which reinforce the point of - it punishes midgrounding on preview, which is a form of skill expression.

As I said, there's no concrete examples of these strategies being overbearing, sure they might work once or twice but they are inconsistent at best, and will not have any positive result in the current metagame.

 

[bo_bobson27]

Common Custap Users

Archaludon
Primarina
Skeledirge
Sylveon
Goodra-Hisui
Manaphy
Urshifu
Ursaluna-Bloodmoon
Bellibolt
Moltres-Galar
Rhyperior
Magnezone
Venusaur

~15% of Pokemon

Theoretical Custap Users

Gouging Fire (learns reversal)
Regidrago (common in ss)
Hoopa-Unbound (idk)
Iron Valiant (learns reversal)
Porygon-Z (ss set)
Raging Bolt (probably bad)
Volcarona (probably bad)
Azumarill (common idea)
Haxorus (reversal)
Landorus-Therian (seen it in ss)
Metagross (seen it in ss)
Serperior (seems ok)
Annihilape (reversal)
Great Tusk (reversal)
Iron Hands (reversal)
Meowscarada (probably bad)
Ursaluna (actually good)
Urshifu-Rapid-Strike (reversal)
Walking Wake (idk)
Zapdos (ss)
Rillaboom (idk)
Arcanine-Hisui (idk)
Diancie (probably bad)
Greninja (probably bad)
Kyurem (idk)
Volcanion (ss)
Baxcalibur (idk)
Donphan (sturdy)
Iron Boulder (idk)
Avalugg-Hisui (sturdy)
Garchomp (ss)
Glastrier (ss)
Iron Moth (idk)
Roaring Moon (idk)
Tinkaton (idk)
Tyranitar (ss)
Zapdos-Galar (ss)
Dondozo (seems ok)
Enamorus (idk)
Landorus (idk)
Muk-Alola (idk)
Avalugg (sturdy)
Okidogi (reversal)
Ting-Lu (wp is probably better)

~50% of pokemon

Custap is a Bad Option

Ogerpon-Hearthflame
Ogerpon-Wellspring
Corviknight
Cresselia
Iron Crown
Pecharunt
Dragapult
Ninetales-Alola
Espathra
Registeel
Spectrier
Darkrai
Fezandipiti
Maushold
Sneasler
Suicune
Whimsicott
Chien-Pao
Clodsire
Ninetales
Scizor
Florges
Gardevoir
Iron Bundle
Sableye
Salamence
Clefable
Sinistcha
Slaking
Umbreon

~35% of Pokemon

Naturally Counters Custap

Ogerpon-Hearthflame (spiky shield + leech seed)
Ogerpon-Wellspring (spiky shield + leech seed)
Archaludon (sturdy, runs endure if custap anyway)
Primarina (runs custap itself, can run aqua jet, or encore asw)
Skeledirge (stall doesnt care, main set is custap anyway)
Iron Valiant (runs protect on main set)
Raging Bolt (thunderclap)
Volcarona (setup, some sets that dont run roost are more likely to 5050 in very specific situations)
Corviknight (stall)
Cresselia (stall)
Iron Crown (setup, rarely custap will 5050, but considering these mus as lost still gives a good mu spread)
Pecharunt (stall)
Azumarill (aqua jet)
Haxorus (unnerve)
Metagross (bullet punch + knock off)
Ursaluna (slower/unnerve)
Serperior (runs protect on main set, other sets can run knock)
Iron Hands (is slower anyway)
Meowscarada (knock off, also runs leech seed)
Urshifu-Rapid-Strike (aqua jet)
Walking Wake (aqua jet)
Zapdos (commonly runs protect/stall)
Ninetales-Alola (protect)
Goodra-Hisui (usually slower, and would win/lose regardless)
Manaphy (stall/ur own custap)
Urshifu (sucker punch)
Rillaboom (grassy glide/leech seed)
Diancie (slower)
Espathra (protect/stall)
Registeel (stall)
Spectrier (wisp)
Ursaluna-Bloodmoon (vacuum wave)
Baxcalibur (ice shard)
Donphan (sturdy, also ice shard, also slower)
Fezandipiti (quick attack)
Bellibolt (sucker punch/slower)
Moltres-Galar (sucker punch/custap)
Rhyperior (slower)
Avalugg-Hisui (win or lose, no custap 5050 can run espeed)
Glastrier (slower)
Roaring Moon (knock off)
Tinkaton (mus are very type based, custap 5050 wont matter)
Tyranitar (sand)
Maushold (feint)
Suicune (protect/stall)
Whimsicott (prankster subtect)
Dondozo (slower)
Muk-Alola (slower + knock)
Clodsire (stall)
Ninetales (protect)
Scizor (bullet punch
Magnezone (sturdy)
Venusaur (leech seed, also ur own custap)
Avalugg (sturdy)
Ting-Lu (slower)
Florges (stall)
Gardevoir (protect/trick)
Sableye (prankster/protect/trick)
Grafaiai (prankster)
Clefable (stall)
Sinistcha (stall)
Umbreon (stall)

~70% of pokemon

can tech, but don't want to

Gouging Fire (doesnt always want bulwark)
Regidrago (not always bulky enough)
Hoopa-Unbound (doesnt always have knock, usually tanks the custap hit anyway)
Sylveon (not always custap/quick attack)
Great Tusk (doesnt always want knock off)
Dragapult (usually not wisp)
Greninja (shadow sneak, but only on LO)
Iron Boulder (can run protect but doesnt want to)
Zapdos-Galar (not always knock, and knock doesnt always work)
Iron Moth (can run protect but doesnt want to)
Sneasler (wants extra moveslot)
Landorus (can run protect but doesnt want to)
Iron Bundle (can run protect but doesnt want to)

~15% of Pokemon

The Dreaded 5050

Porygon-Z (runs sub for prim, but only on one set, and usually 5050s between uproar and hbeam)
Landorus-Therian (can run taunt for dirge, but doesnt work vs all custap mons)
Annihilape (beats prim anyway, but there are 5050s vs most custap users)
Arcanine-Hisui (choiced, similar to pz)
Volcanion (usually custap wont matter, but vs something like rhyperior it does)
Kyurem (not really worth running protect)
Darkrai (idk it could run prot, but generally loses to custap, can 5050 like pz sometimes)
Garchomp (usually wins/loses anyway, but not always ie moltg)
Enamorus (doesnt want protect)
Okidogi (does have knock, idk no one uses this)
Salamence (doesnt have room for protect)

~13%

RIP

Chien-Pao (no one wants to run lo)
Slaking (yea)

~2%
Make of this what you will. IMO custap is not enough of a problem in practice or in theory to warrant a ban. People are not using custap on "random mons", and even if they do, the majority of the meta already has a way to prep for it. Yes, sometimes custap is involved in 5050s, but it is not at all excessive. There are plenty of other situations with 5050s, that's just the game we play.

 

[DripLegend]

im gonna vote ban, said i would make a post earlier but i haven't felt like posting kek. i think that custap is routinely promoting unhealthy dynamics in play, not just limited to 50/50s but overall usage as well. lot of reasonings i've seen from people that are pro keeping it is that most good mons in the metagame are well equipped to handle it. and while this is a true statement, it still leads to widening the large gap that we see in viability in terms of mons that will and will not need to adapt to beat custap versions of mons. whether it is evs, moveset, or item adjustments, custaps overall promotes more hierarchies within the viable and usable, which is overall increasing the power level of the gen in my opinion. not to mention uncompetitive aspects of it (50/50s of endure or not as well as double endure odds.). i think it is something that a lot of people have wanted to take action on throughout the course of the tier, and with the metagame powerlevel being fairly high compared to previous generations (wider encore distribution, paradox mon, overall power creep that comes in with new gens) i think removing it from the tier would remove a lot of the current struggles with building and needing to account for the myriad of viable and niche mons that are able to use custap effectively. even if it isn't that hard to read or guess custap on preview it still makes accounting for and fully covering the metagame overly difficult while trying to be diverse.

 

[armaldlothearmaldo]

I'm glad that DripLegend has finally made his post. So far, it seems like the DNB side of the discussion has been dominating discourse. I'd be inclined to say that's because it is the correct side, but having more pro-ban arguments on the forums promotes discussion and will also leave a clearer picture for people looking back on this suspect (which is the sort of thing I do).

[...] it still leads to widening the large gap that we see in viability in terms of mons that will and will not need to adapt to beat custap versions of mons. whether it is evs, moveset, or item adjustments, custaps overall promotes more hierarchies within the viable and usable, which is overall increasing the power level of the gen in my opinion. [...]

I'm not entirely sure I agree with this, though I'm also not completely clear on what exactly your argument is here. Is it that pokemon who can easily adjust their set to custap berry users become more viable relative to pokemon that can't than they otherwise would be? If that is your argument, may I inquire as to how this differs from any other instance where pokemon perform better against the meta?

[...] not to mention uncompetitive aspects of it (50/50s of endure or not as well as double endure odds.). [...]

I agree that double endure odds is slightly uncompetitive. However, I would raise two questions: A) Is this substantially different from other RNG in pokemon, such as the chance to miss a stone edge or from other 50/50 matchups such as ORAS/USUM Charizards? B) If your pokemon is reliant upon a 50/50 prediction or a 66/33 roll to beat an opposing pokemon, was it ever a genuine counter?

[...] and with the metagame powerlevel being fairly high compared to previous generations (wider encore distribution, paradox mon, overall power creep that comes in with new gens) i think removing it from the tier would remove a lot of the current struggles with building and needing to account for the myriad of viable and niche mons that are able to use custap effectively. even if it isn't that hard to read or guess custap on preview it still makes accounting for and fully covering the metagame overly difficult while trying to be diverse. [...]

I would note that none of the three factors you listed as enabling this generation's power creep actually rely on custap berry to any significant degree. Some pokemon that use encore are good custap users (Primarina and Skeledirge), but many of the more noticeable encore users (e.g., Iron Valiant and Ninetales-Alola) are not custap users themselves. Furthermore, none of the paradox mons make much use of it except for maybe some Iron Hands, and the vast majority of the notable custap users are not actually new to this generation (Skeledirge and Archaludon excepted).

Additionally, anecdotally, I would disagree with your final point that the presence of custap berry specifically is what makes building in the current metagame difficult. In my experience, the difficulties with building come not from the power level of certain threats (apart from Regidrago) but rather stem from the sheer variety of threats. Every time I develop a core of two pokemon that I'm fairly happy with, the threat list is a collection of about ten extremely disparate pokemon with different typings and skillsets. To be concrete about this, I've been fiddling with a core of Primarina and Corviknight, which in past generations should be extremely strong, losing on a purely typing basis only to electric types, which could be addressed by adding something like Donphan to the team. However, in practice in Scarlet and Violet, the team loses to Iron Moth, Archaludon, Volcanion, Ogerpon-Hearthflame (50/50s Corviknight), Greninja and Manaphy in addition to the tier's major electric types like Iron Hands, Raging Bolt, and Zapdos.

Tiers can become centralized either because a select few pokemon are extremely powerful and not using them or their few checks is a tremendous mistake (i.e., Kyurem-Black's SM 1v1 or Mimikyu's SS 1v1) or because a wide variety of pokemon are extremely threatening and it is therefore nigh impossible to effectively beat all possible threats without using a handful of the very best pokemon. I would argue we are in the latter and that banning custap berry will not therefore improve the health of the meta. As Bo_Bobson has noted, only about 15% of the VR actually uses custap, and the majority of those pokemon will remain threats that must be considered when teambuilding even if a select handful of additional options now beat them.
As an aside, are we really certain the power level of Scarlet and Violet is so much higher than, for instance, Sun and Moon?

[...] niche mons that are able to use custap effectively [...]

With the exception of Camerupt and low ladder shenanigans (i.e., custap Hoopa-U), I haven't seen anything truly niche or unexpected making use of custap, though I'm open to having my mind changed on this point with some examples of niche pokemon that actually do use the berry.

tl;dr: The state of the meta is such that banning custap will not improve overall meta health and custap is not inherently uncompetitive.
Urshifu delenda est.

 

[DripLegend]

quoting on mobile is annoying armaldlothearmaldo

my overall point is that custap makes the tier less diverse and while these mons do match up well into it normally it furthers the potential ceiling between them and other niche mons by a long shot. Not that we need every Mon to be viable in a meta game but even just looking at the current meta game we see a lot of the same cores either matching up well into, or using custap itself. Not that using the item or matching up well into it is an issue, since it is a common set for a lot of mons rn, but it does bring up the question of how we choose to look at that in the current meta game, as a stabilizing force or as something unhealthy.

for ur rng points: hitting two stone edges is not the same as a 50/50. This tier often has 50/50s and they aren’t really bad in just themselves and often seen as layers of skill.However, just the existence of custap does give ANY Mon that commonly runs it an advantage in a given matchup. For instance, you would have to be insane to click pz hyper beam on prim since oo custap chance. Bluffing is a common part of the tier as well so again it does have a skill ceiling, but the fact is that even bluffing custap compared to any other item has serious advantageous positioning in interactions with the tier.
The issue with ur 50/50 or 66/33 question is mainly in the fact that these are not mutually exclusive. Like the better player isn’t inherently favored even if they do win the 50/50, since double endure is not uncommon enough to not go for it, and playing around double endure is pretty ridiculous lmao. Some mons do have the force themselves to win 50/50s for certain matchups a lot (Lando and zard in Oras) but those are more of soft checks than actual counters. In terms of double endure though I think playing around beating all custap users that COULD hit a double outside of using priority or protect is pretty ridiculous.

I do think the power level has been higher than a lot of previous gens. The main thing about SV is that it does have a ton of strong forces that stand out more than as a whole everything is really good, but I do think the power level is fairly high. I don’t get ur point before the aside since u like brush over what I think is important about custap in allowing more viable counterplay to get brought, and the viable mons already using it still being viable. I think banning custap does tone down a lot of mons that have been pretty high tuned in my opinion (arch) and even then it definitely doesn’t inhibit usage of any of these mons when they have great tools outside of their custap sets.

Edit: custap gone doesn’t aid building aspect of the tier besides arch really in retrospect but that things broken lolol

 

[armaldlothearmaldo]

We actually agree on a lot of things, it seems. It appears to just be a question of whether we view the RNG aspect of things as unhealthy. You do; I don't because I don't see it coming into play very often and because I'm pretty tolerant of RNG in pokemon.

[...] it furthers the potential ceiling between them and other niche mons by a long shot. Not that we need every Mon to be viable in a meta game but even just looking at the current meta game we see a lot of the same cores either matching up well into, or using custap itself [...] it does bring up the question of how we choose to look at that in the current meta game, as a stabilizing force or as something unhealthy.

While the tier is centralized, I don't believe that is because of custap. Given the bottom two quotes here, it seems like you might agree with that. Please do correct me if I've misunderstood your point or taken it further than you meant.

[...] just the existence of custap does give ANY Mon that commonly runs it an advantage in a given matchup [...]

The issue with ur 50/50 or 66/33 question is mainly in the fact that these are not mutually exclusive. Like the better player isn’t inherently favored even if they do win the 50/50, since double endure is not uncommon enough to not go for it, and playing around double endure is pretty ridiculous lmao. Some mons do have the force themselves to win 50/50s for certain matchups a lot (Lando and zard in Oras) but those are more of soft checks than actual counters. In terms of double endure though I think playing around beating all custap users that COULD hit a double outside of using priority or protect is pretty ridiculous.

Your point about it not being a true 50/50 because a pokemon can land a double endure is a good one, though I'm not particularly convinced that
a) this RNG differs substantially from other RNG in pokemon (if I need to land 80% accurate moves to win, for instance, I'm relying on a 64% chance).
b) this RNG actually has the sort of impact on games that the pro-ban arguments seem to assume. Both Bo_Bobson and DEG have already made this point far better than I could.

[...] even then it definitely doesn’t inhibit usage of any of these mons when they have great tools outside of their custap sets. [...]

Agreed.

Edit: custap gone doesn’t aid building aspect of the tier besides arch really in retrospect but that things broken lolol

Okay, that was basically my entire point. I evidently didn't communicate it very well, but I'm glad we do agree. Also, yes, Archaludon is ridiculous.

 

[Itchy]

Custap Berry remains legal after a close vote. Thanks everyone for sharing your thoughts!