Gyarados (Uber analysis)

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trickroom

trickroom

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[OVERVIEW]
<p>Gyarados is offen considered a terrible pokemon to use in ubers because of his 4x weakness to electric attacks which are quite common in the Uber tier due to the presence of Kyogre. While ever-lasting rain makes gyarados vulnerable to thunders it boosts the power of Gyarados's attacks to tremendous levels. Gyarados separates itself from Salamence and Rayquaza by not having a 4x weakness to ice and not threatened much by defensive lugia. Gyarados differentiates itself from kingdra, by having higher attack, an immunity to ground attacks, neutral to dragon attacks which are the most common attacking type in ubers. While Dialga is usually able to halt kingdra's sweep, Gyarados can power through Dialga with earthquake. Intimidate makes Gyarados a good switch into forretress and scizor while Kingdra is unable to set up on Scizor as easily.

SET]
name: Offensive Gyara
move 1: Waterfall
move 2: Outrage
move 3: Earthquake
move 4: Dragon Dance
item: Life orb
ability: Intimidate
nature: Adamant / Jolly
evs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Even in the Ubers tier,Gyarados is capable of puncturing teams. After a Dragon Dance,Gyarados reaches 391 speed after a dragon dance when using an adamant nature, outspeeding Shaymin-S, Darkrai, Latias, Latios and Palkia, all threatening pokemon in the metagame. Waterfall is gyarados's main attack, and it hits the majority of ubers that do not resist water for good damage. In the rain, gyarados's waterfall is almost as strong as a jolly rayquaza's outrage. Most ubers are physically fragile, so waterfall will do large damage to even those that resist it such as scarf kyogre and latios, dealing 54% - 63.6% and 43.3% - 51.2% to them respectively.

Earthquake is necessary for dealing with Dialga and Metagross. Both are ohkoed by earthquake after a Dragon Dance. Outrage is needed for Ggyarados to power through the dragon-infested metagame. After a dragon dance,outrage will ohko all the dragons in the tier barring Dialga and Giratina. After a Dragon Dance, Shaymin-S will also be ohkoed after stealth rock.

<p>The evs on this set is simple but effective as it maximizes Gyarados's attack power and the speed evs allows Gyarados to outspeed everything up to Shaymin-S without a choice scarf. Unfortunately, Mewtwo still outspeeds Gyarados after a Dragon Dance,however a jolly nature can be used to outspeed Mewtwo. A jolly nature is not recommended because most scarfers will still outspeed Gyarados and killed Gyarados with thunder. Life orb is used to ramp up Gyarados's attack and gain additional koes.

<p>The first thing that hinders this set's potential is Groudon. With the presence of sunlight it can wall Gyarados easily if using a defensive set. In the sun, Gyarados's waterfall will become much weaker than usual. Skarmory can easily wall Gyarados if the sun is shining. Choice scarfers will pose a great danger to gyarados as most run thunder and can out speed gyarados even after a Dragon Dance. Therefore, Wobbuffet is highly recommended as a partner as it traps and kills most scarfers and groudon, eliminating Gyarados's common counters. However, Wobbuffet is unable to stop mewtwo that has taunt, so kyogre is recommended to deal with Mewtwo and to provide infinite rain. Gyarados and Kyogre will attract a lot of thunders though so diagla is a great choice for absorbing thunders, particularly defensive sets. Groudon is not recommended as a partner even though it is immune to thunder, the sun it brings with will severly reduce the power of Gyarados's main attack.

<p>When using Gyarados, you should focus on its adavantages over his nemesis. While Rayquaza has higher attack than gyarados, Gyarados is not weak to dragon and ice attacks. Lugia without thunder will be unable to deal significant damage to Gyarados while Gyarados can hit Lugia hard with a boosted waterfall. Gyarados is not going to get revenge killed through ice shard from the likes of Weavile, unlike Rayquaza. Lucario is significantly less bulky than Gyarados and lacks intimidate which can be useful in some situations.

[Team Options]

<p>Stealth rock and spikes will greatly aid gyarados's sweep as it damages Lugia and Giratina badly. While Giratina takes a massive damage from a boosted outrage, it can survive and burn Gyarados, crippling it for the match. With stealth rocks down,Lugia will have a harder time switching into Gyarados. Both Forretress and Deoxys-e are useful entry hazards setter. Forretress has the added benefit of spinning away stealth rock which improves gyarados's durability. Kyogre is recommended to provide rain to gyarados and countering both Lugia and Giratina with its powerful water and ice assaults. Wobbuffet is also a great partner as it removes scarfers which can revenge kill Gyarados with thunder and defensive Groudon will hate Wobbuffet. If Wobbuffet encores a ground attack, Gyarados can come in for free and set up.

<p>Gyarados will have trouble dealing with max speed Mewtwo carrying thunder and all uber scarfers. Scarfers can be dealt with by Wobbuffet while Mewtwo can be countered by Palkia, Metagross or Scizor. If it has thunder, which Mewtwo needs to immediately threaten Gyarados, Kyogre cannot stop Mewtwo. Defensive Kyogre with thunder will threaten Gyarados so Palkia or Latias is recommended to deal with kyogre. Latias has the added benefit of ressiting electric. Garchomp is also a great partner to Gyarados as it can switch in while the opponent uses thunder and start setting up or just hit hard with its choice sets. Choice scarf Garchomp can revenge kill Mewtwo with outrage if it is weaken.

<p>Gyarados's defenses are average at best in ubers however intimidate does give it a bit of bulkiness. Diagla is a good teammate for gyarados as it resist electric and rock attacks while Gyarados resists fighting attacks and is immune to ground attacks. If special attacking Dialga fails to eliminate blissey, Gyarados can power through the special wall with its ferocious assaults. Giratina-O is also a viable partner as it resist electric and block spinning hazards which are useful to gyarados to sweep.

[Other Options]
<p>Gyarados can utilize a physical defensive set to counter physical dragons.It can counter almost all physical dragons in the tier with intimidate and maximize defense. For example, even a Dragon Danced outrage from Rayquaza fails to ohko Gyarados after stealth rock and intimidate while Gyarados can ohko back with avalanche. Gyrados is unable to do much to Groudon using its defensive sets however as waterfall will do pitiful damage to impish Groudon thanks to Groudon's massive defense and the sun.

[EVs]
<p>Gyarados should use 252 Atk /252 speed/ 6spdef because thunders will still kill Gyarados with ease. Max speed is needed to outspeed everything to Shaymin-s while max attack is obvious for dishing out maximum damage. While jolly allows Gyarados to outspeed Mewtwo, it is not recommended because Gyarados will still be outsped by scarfers and loses a lot of power.

[Opinion]
<p>Gyarados may not be as immediately threatening as rayquaza, it is a great choice in rain offensive teams. It may lack the speed boosts that Kingdra and Kabutops have but it's bulk, typing and ground immunity some what makes up for it. Compare to Kingdra, Gyarados's attack is much higher and is able to use earthquake to deal with Dialga, a common counter to Kingdra and Manaphy. It is not weak to dragon and does not get ohkoed as easily as kabutops and can set up on scizor, something Kabutops and Kingdra cannot do so in normal situations. Gyarados should not be underestimated even in ubers,as with the right support, it can run over teams that lack a decent check.

[Counters]
<p>Choice Scarfers such as Dialga, Palkia, Kyogre can revenge kill Gyarados with thunder even after a dragon dance. Kyogre is probably the best as Gyarados can never ohkoed Kyogre without a boost. Bulky kyogre with thunder can deal with Gyarados fairly easily as well.

<p>Groudon brings the sun into play and reduces Gyarados's waterfall power significantly. Groudon's massive defense stat will buffer even Gyarados's waterfall with ease and cripple Gyarados with thunder wave. Groudon can also kill it outright with stone edge. As long as Mewtwo avoids switching into a boosted waterfall in the rain, it can come in and threaten Gyarados with thunder.Metwo still outspeeds Gyarados even after a dragon dance. In the sun, Skarmory can laugh at Gyarados's assaults and phaze it out.

<p>Finally, the defensive behemoths in the metagame: Lugia and Giratina will pose a major roadblock to Gyarados's sweep. Both can reflect or burn to reduce Gyarados's power. However, in the rain, Lugia will hate taking boosted waterfalls, it can come in reflect and phaze gyarados out. Otherwise, Lugia can just kill it outright with thunder. Giratina hates boosted outrages but its massive defense allows it to surive the hit with ease and cripple Gyarados with will-o-wisp or kill Gyarados right away with thunder.
 
well I cannot comment on this sets viability as of yet (shoddy access is restricted till the 24th) but I think that Garchomp is an excellent partner to Gyarados and should be added in. It can freely switch in to thunders directed at Gyarados. Scarf Garchomp also slightly helps vs Mewtwo since you can outspeed it and KO with Outrage. Also with Toxic in the last slot you can cripple walls such as Giratina and Lugia that give this set issues.
 
I have seen this set in action once or twice, and while I can say that it isn't bad, it's not fantastic, either. Being outsped by Mewtwo after a boost is very disappointing. While Gyara has good bulk when coupled with Intimidate, it's still quite frail for Ubers standards. On the other hand, if you want raw power for a Rain team, SD Kabutops is better. I'm not a QC member, but I think the support needed for this set might be a bit too much.
 
While I cant speak about how it may function in the uber metagame, you may want to put spaces after your periods. Like that.
 
Groudon can easily kill kabutops with earthquake while gyarados can survive a hit and do some damage.Gyarados is not deadweight without rain,while kabutops is since gyarados still has the speed boosts after a dragon dance,unlike kabutops.Scizor kills kabutops with bullet punch easily,not gyarados.
 
I remember Theorymon testing Gyarados in Ubers, pondering whether it should have an analysis or not. The biggest issue seemed that it was reliant on Bounce since STAB Waterfall is easy to break. Once Groudon comes in, Gyarados is kind of screwed so long as Groudon has Stone Edge (which it commonly does). Outrage is okay, but it's not coming off of STAB, so in essence it's not very strong and makes it a bit easier to revenge kill. Gyarados has 391 Speed, which makes it vulnerable to Mewtwo and Deoxys-A automatically. Scarf Palkia can't really miss with Thunder unless if it's sunny, and even Draco Meteor is pushing a OHKO after Stealth Rock is calculated. The only good news is Gyarados 2HKOes Rock Polish Groudon despite in the sun, but the bad news is Groudon can still OHKO you anyway.

Also, Kingdra is not entirely screwed by Dialga. +1 Outrage does 77.6% - 91.6% to the Mixed Attacker Dialga, and will OHKO it often if it's Mild or Hasty Nature (86.8% - 101.9%). Kingdra also has +3 Speed, so being revenge killed by Palkia can only happen under the circumstance that the sunlight is present. Kabutops is not entirely boned by Groudon either since rarely do they ever run Max Speed. Kabutops, with an Adamant nature and max Spe EVs, reaches 259 Speed. Rock Polish Groudon EVs reaches 240. Jolly will outspeed it, but it is rarely used. Only Swords Dancer and SubSalac have max Speed, and they are not common enough to really deter a Kabutops from switching out (I'd bite the bullet at least).

So case in point... I really want to vote "no" for this, despite not being a QC member. I just don't really see a major point with Gyarados since it lacks:

1) A secondary STAB that allows it to push through Dragons.
2) STAB Outrage, which is what makes Kingdra appealing.
3) Swift Swim, which makes both Kabutops and Kingdra more appealing than Gyarados.

Bounce is the closest that it has to pass through #1, but even then we're talking a 4 PP Attack vs. most Uber Pokemon that is 2 stage attacks. Being faster, you can be left vulnerable to an attack unless you're behind a Substitute.

Also, if you're doing the format, then please use the <p></p> tags.
 
Colonel_M said:
I remember Theorymon testing Gyarados in Ubers, pondering whether it should have an analysis or not. The biggest issue seemed that it was reliant on Bounce since STAB Waterfall is easy to break
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What?

If I recall correctly, what eventually made Theorymon reject Gyarados was not reliance on Bounce (I don't recall him testing Bounce at all), but rather, competition with Kingdra for a team slot. Kingdra gets a Swift Swim boost and STAB Outrage and Draco Meteor (which allows it to beat Dragons without getting itself locked in). I don't remember the full details for his rejection so I'll let him talk instead.

trickroom said:
Groudon can easily kill kabutops with earthquake while gyarados can survive a hit and do some damage
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This isn't necessarily always true. Gyarados loses to Stone Edge Groudon and +1 Gyara Waterfall does less damage than +2 Kabutops Waterfall. Even with no Attack EVs, Groudon will OHKO Gyarados with Stone Edge, after Stealth Rock damage, doing 75% damage minimum (lol). This isn't factoring Intimidate because...it's not like you're really gonna send Gyarados into Groudon (unless you need to Intimidate it or something).

The way I see it though, a major drawback is the fact that Gyarados is slow. Adamant means Mewtwo outruns you and can potentially fry you with Thunder (even worse, Gyarados is often used with Rain), whereas Jolly beats Mewtwo but you lose a fair amount of power and you don't outrun anything else (well, before a DD you get to outrun Adamant Luke I guess that somewhat counts even though Adamant ES is nearly as powerful as Jolly Close Combat anyways...). Gyarados' merits over Kingdra would be immunity to TS/Spikes and resistance to Fighting, along with Intimidate which helps support the team more than Gyarados itself probably.
 
Gyarados has ground immunity over both rain abusers,and well stone edge has shaky accuracy while earthquake ohkoes kabutops 100% of the time.Scizor gives problems to kingdra and kabutops but gyarados is not threatenend much by scizor.Gyarados can take a hit like a palkia's spacial rend or dialga's dragon pulse and retaliate with outrage or earthquake.Kingdra and kabutops are both koed.Gyarados does not even need stab for dragon type to ohko the majority of dragons in the tier.Even with kingdra's stab,it's outrage still cannot ohko dialga anyway while a boosted earthquake from gyarados will ohko dialga regardless of hp evs.Bounce makes gyarados even more vulnerable to thunders.
 
However, Kingdra is faster than Scarf Dialga, and can take it down after a bit of damage, can KO it with Outrage, whereas Gyarados just gets outsped and ripped apart by Thunder or Draco Meteor. Speaking of faster, in rain Kingdra doesn't even need to take a Palkia's Spacial Rend unlike Gyarados, since it could just kill it outright with Draco Meteor

Gyarados' ability to set up on Scizor is a good positive though.
 
Ah yes Gyarados, I tested that quite a while ago. It wasn't bad persay, but like Jibaku said, its biggest problems where the Speed and comparsions to Kingdra. Sure, Gyarados has a fighting resist, ground immunity, and Toxic Spikes immunity, but its also Stealth Rock weak and Thunder really screws Gyarados up. By far the biggest selling points of Gyarados in Ubers for me were setting up on Scizor and Intimidate, but I don't think that makes up for its massive short comings.

I'm not going to outright reject this YET, I'll retest it and test other Gyarados sets before making a final decsion. Just be warned, I am highly likely to reject it.
 
I thought Theorymon did test Bounce, though I couldn't "exactly" remember the details amongst why he exactly rejected Gyarados. I figured it had to do with being pretty outclassed by Kingdra (aside from setting up on Scizor, though Kingdra does okay at this thanks to the Steel resist), though I could've sworn he tested Bounce one day. Oh well, it might've been just me not remembering right.
 
I don't know much about the Ubers metagame, but your spelling and grammar really need to be improved to meet Smogon's standards. There are tons of errors in capitalization alone.

Even in the ubers tier,gyarados is capable of puncturing teams. After a dragon dance,gyarados reaches 391 speed after a dragon dance when using an adamant nature, outspeeding shaymin-s, darkrai, latias, latios and palkia
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For starters, the names of Pokemon need to be capitalized. I don't think you've capitalized anything except the first word in each sentence. Your prose is also very weak and the analysis is, to be frank, very poorly written. I don't mean to discourage you and we appreciate the effort you put into writing this, but the standard of writing definitely has to be improved.
 
Wouldn't Stone Edge be a better option instead of Outrage? Outrage sucks unSTABbed and Stone Edge doesn't lock you into one move and let stuff set up on you. It also does more to Lugia than Outrage will.

Ice Fang could also be slashed I guess because of the presence of Dragon-type mons.

Also, the sentence structure and capitalization, etc in that write up is horrible. :/
 
Ice fang is pretty weak,as it does not even kill latias and giratina-o after stealth rock.Outrage will kill both.Ice fang is only useful for haban berry garchomp and shaymin-s.Stone edge is only for ho-oh and lugia,but since waterfall already ohkoes ho-oh and gyarados is rarely able to break through defensive lugia,stone edge is rarely useful.Unless it is in the sun,stone edge will rarely be used and the accuracy is shaky and only has 8 pp.Outrage and earthquake will do better.Defensive dialga does stop kingdra but gyarados can ohko it with a boosted earthquake,especially bulk up dialga as it lacks thunder.
 
This set is weak at best and needs some help with grammar for example.
"While ever-lasting rain makes gyarados vulnerable to thunders, the power boosts from rain does boosts the power of Gyarados's attacks to tremendous levels."
Something more like
"While ever-lasting rain makes Gyarados vulnerable to thunder, the rain boosts the power of Gyarados's attacks to tremendous levels."
Shorter, proper grammar and more understandable.
As for the set, kingdra is far better, as it has stab outrage, and draco meteor. As for dialga, I think that your opponent will realistically have better switch ins. A few examples are, shaymin-s, palkia, mewtwo, choice scarf darkrai, and deoxys.
 
Switching shaymin-s into gyarados,gyarados can just ohko it with a boosted outrage.After a dragon dance,palkia needs a scarf.Dragon attacks ohko kingdra easily.Gyarados can survive an assault,live and answer accordingly.Gyarados is unaffected by spikes which will ruin kingdra's sweep and intimidate makes gyarados much bulkier than kingdra or kabutops.
 
Alright, I am going to reject Gyarados, even with its nice perks such as setting up on Scizor and Toxic Spikes immunity, the SR weak, Thunder weakness, Speed, and Kingdra's existance really outweigh the good of Gyarados. Note that I am only rejecting the DD set you have posted, I haven't tested other sets yet.
 
Gyarados is destroyed by any Scarf Pokemon who bypasses its Speed Boost. It's not particularly fast and it doesn't have Swift Swim to fall back on.

You have to lock yourself into Outrage anytime you want to take out a Dragon. Not only does this make you easily walled by Steels, but it makes you extremely predictable too.

Gyarados is 4x weak to Thunder, one of the most common moves in the Metagame. You cannot switch in that easily to any Pokémon who could conceivably be carrying Thunder. Scarf Kyogre, who you cited as being 2HKOed by Waterfall is a problem for this very reason.

Kingdra outclasses this, as it is far more deadly in the rain, has a great Dragon-type STAB, and has a mixed set to provide unpredictability.

You aren't going to get past Groudon with this set. It can switch in whenever it wants, cutting Waterfall's power, and just throw its physical bulk right in your face. After, it OHKOes you with Stone Edge.

Sorry, but this is a no for me.
 
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