Gyarados that can't dance

Blazer

This thread is about Bulky Gyarados and the viability of not using dragon dance on it. Looking at the analysis almost every Gyarados set has DD, this is probably due to Gyarados' limited movepool and DD being a very good move. The Bulky set is used very commonly as a lead (number one lead on Shoddy). Because it is only using two attacking moves, Gyarados can have trouble sweeping even with a DD under its belt. Instead of trying to make Bulky Gyarados into a part-time sweeper, putting Thunder wave over DD allows Gyarados to hamper other leads. If the opponent is trying to used a physical attacker as a lead than Intimidate plus Thunder Wave will cripple it, if the opponent tries to set up then you can use taunt. For speedy special attackers (with out tbolt) thunder wave can cripple them from the start.

I will be the first to admit that this idea is in no way game breaking and might not even be that original, but I do not see many Gyarados sets with out dragon dance and was wondering if Gyarados needs to be able to sweep (or have the threat of sweeping) to be effective.
 
Why TWave to outspeed when you can DD to outspeed? If you don't feel you are outspeeding enough with DD, just up the speed, and your attack will still come out higher. Max Speed Gyara hits 430 after DD.

Because it is only using two attacking moves, Gyarados can have trouble sweeping even with a DD under its belt.
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If you replace DD with TWave you are still only left with two attacking moves. DD on Gyara is a like a TWave with an attack boost.


If you still think TWave can be used to better effect, than prove me wrong by posting some sort of EV spread and moveset or something.
 
ultimatefreshness said:
DD on Gyara is a like a TWave with an attack boost.
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That isn't exactly right, TWave permanently cripples your foe and makes him slower than not only Gyarados, but also all of your other pokemon, which is a distinct advantage over DD, after one of which so many pokemon still have the ability to force you to switch out like nothing.

You're right on all other points though, a set like that would have to be made. Generally, DD is still by far the most obvious choice - Gyarados does not have high enough attack to sweep without the dd boost.
 
One thing I'd like to mention is that some common (and uncommon) ground-type leads such as Hippowdon and Swampert could cause some trouble with your Thunder Wave strategy.

Swampert is hit neutral by all of Gyarados' attacks, and Hippowdon could probably Slack Off the unboosted super effective attacks and stall for some reason or just switch out. Both can try to threaten it back with Stone Edge (keep in mind of Intimidate, however), or for Swampert specifically, Hidden Power [Electric].

In all honesty, Dragon Dance is more useful in my opinion. It won for me on many occasions, living up to the ol' saying "Gyarados 6-0's your team".
 
Lyfsaho said:
That isn't exactly right, TWave permanently cripples your foe and makes him slower than not only Gyarados, but also all of your other pokemon, which is a distinct advantage over DD, after one of which so many pokemon still have the ability to force you to switch out like nothing.
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I was more talking about for the sake of Gyarados itself and not the rest of your team. I am aware of the support TWave can provide for your team, but offensive Gyara has no place for support moves.
 
I actually agree with Beck and ultimatefreshness TWave does have it's uses but DD is just generally better as one of them posted Gyara's attack stat isn't high enough to sweep(especially since the Bulky spread gives you only 16 Atk evs iirc).
 
It's not like a Hippo or Swampert lead is staying in on a Gyara, especially considering intimidate. Gyara can get a nice hit in on either of them with little risk. Mixpert is hardly a set, Stone Edge isn't standard on Hippo who is weak to Waterfall and won't like eating it.
I agree that overall DD is probably a better option entirely because of the threat it poses, potentially wiping out a whole team, but Twave has it's merits too, especially on a more defense oriented team.
Pros:
Unexpected
Permanent
Cons:
Gyara has better things to do than Twave, which a million other things can do.
Gyara can't afford to switch in and out throwing Twaves because of his lack of a recovery move and instant death to electric attacks, it's a high risk low reward situation, and Gyara without DD just isn't that threatening.
 
The Gyarados Analysis said:
You can throw Thunder Wave over Taunt on some of the DD sets because paralysis is awesome, and it's not like Electivire or Ground-type Pokémon, the latter by nature of Gyarados being a Water-type, are switching into Gyarados anytime soon.
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Putting Thunder Wave on Gyarados isn't exactly a new idea, though putting it over DD is. I would prefer putting it over Taunt instead of Dragon Dance so you can power up your Attack.
 
I used Thunder Wave/Taunt/Waterfall/Stone Edge on a team that spammed Thunder Wave, because Gyarados just simply doesn't hit hard enough, and all decent teams will pack a counter. So I'd rather slow their entire team down and stat-up and sweep with something a lot more threatening.
 
How many things that switch into Gyarados really care about being paralyzed? Starmie and Celebi have Natural Cure, HP Electric Vaporeon/Milotic/Slowbro, etc. are slow to begin with (and you're actually helping Milotic). Cresselia usually has Rest, and also isn't that bothered about being paralyzed.

Thunder Wave is just a mild annoyance for them (if you're lucky).
 
Phuquoph said:
How many things that switch into Gyarados really care about being paralyzed? Starmie and Celebi have Natural Cure, HP Electric Vaporeon/Milotic/Slowbro, etc. are slow to begin with (and you're actually helping Milotic). Cresselia usually has Rest, and also isn't that bothered about being paralyzed.

Thunder Wave is just a mild annoyance for them (if you're lucky).
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Then again, how many of those care if you use Dragon Dance either?
 
mgoblue909 said:
Because it is only using two attacking moves, Gyarados can have trouble sweeping even with a DD under its belt ... was wondering if Gyarados needs to be able to sweep (or have the threat of sweeping) to be effective.
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Obviously Gyarados does not need to be able to sweep to be effective since the set you claim has trouble sweeping even after DDing up is the second most common lead and the 4th most-used Pokemon on February's weighted list.

Also, that Bulky Gyarados is almost the only spread used as opposed to more offensive DD spreads or simple CB Gyarados leans heavily in that direction.
 
Phuquoph said:
How many things that switch into Gyarados really care about being paralyzed? Starmie and Celebi have Natural Cure, HP Electric Vaporeon/Milotic/Slowbro, etc. are slow to begin with (and you're actually helping Milotic). Cresselia usually has Rest, and also isn't that bothered about being paralyzed.

Thunder Wave is just a mild annoyance for them (if you're lucky).
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Those pokemon also do not care if Gyarados gets a DD in as well (that is why they are counters). At least with thunder wave you are doing something to them whether it is maybe getting some hax on full paralysis or slowing them down so your walls can out speed them. Even on the natural cure pokemon you could force a switch to get rid of paralysis (Milotic however does benefit). With only two moves Gyarados is not hurting most bulky waters, so it might serve a purpose to try and paralyze them (opposed to using DD on the switch and having to switch out when the come in, in fear of HP electric).


Mike Rotch said:
Putting Thunder Wave on Gyarados isn't exactly a new idea, though putting it over DD is. I would prefer putting it over Taunt instead of Dragon Dance so you can power up your Attack.
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Putting Twave over taunt was my first idea (it even mentions it in the analysis) but one of the reasons I like Gyarados as a lead is because taunt can hamper other team's opening strategies (trick room, baton pass).

merubin said:
Obviously Gyarados does not need to be able to sweep to be effective since the set you claim has trouble sweeping even after DDing up is the second most common lead and the 4th most-used Pokemon on February's weighted list.



Also, that Bulky Gyarados is almost the only spread used as opposed to more offensive DD spreads or simple CB Gyarados leans heavily in that direction.
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Oops sorry I have not checked the usage list recently and last time i checked Gyarados was the number one lead, again my mistake. If Gyarados does not need to be able to sweep to be effective then why even try? Instead of being a half-assed sweeper why not try to status the other team? Unless the threat of sweeping is that important than it seems like DD goes to waste sometimes when Gyarados only has two moves to work with.
 
That was my point, regardless of whether Gyarados has Dragon Dance or Thunder Wave, he loses to everything I listed. At least Dragon Dance makes him more of a threat to everything else, Thunder Wave does not.
 
Nothing likes paralysis (save milotic) so Gyarados will be more effective against the counters listed. This Gyarados is not meant to be used late game for sweeping, the theory behind this that twave cripple a special attacking lead that may threaten your team (Intimidate already deals with physical attackers but twave can help there too).
 
mgoblue909 said:
Nothing likes paralysis (save milotic) so Gyarados will be more effective against the counters listed. This Gyarados is not meant to be used late game for sweeping, the theory behind this that twave cripple a special attacking lead that may threaten your team (Intimidate already deals with physical attackers but twave can help there too).
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Ok you stick with it then, seems like a really dumb idea to me. With DD you already get a speed advantage and it increases the power of your limited offensive choices.
 
*reads title*
i thought bla... nevermind.
i faced a gyara with t-wave. it works well but you have to have amazing prediction skills for it to work well. i'd personally just stick with dragon dance though. t-wave cripples them, but ddance allows some sweeping with the attack boost and capabilities of boosting your OWN speed.

they both have their ups and downs, but dragon dance just triumphs over t-wave.
 
Yeah after working with it for a while longer it seems that DD is better in almost every situation. There are better pokemon to use twave and gyarados has better things to do than use twave. It works as a nice surprise, but not much more.
 
Dragon Dance is the reason why the bulky Gyarados spread is effective. Not only can it sponge hits quite well with Intimidate and great typing, it is always a threat to set up a sweep and pick opposing team members off. You *have* to switch out of Gyarados because of the threat it likely poses to your pokemon, and forcing switches is the key to winning in d/p. Every turn your opponent is not attacking is a turn that they are risking a gamebreaking opportunity to get lucky or make a crucial sacrifice.

That, and there really aren't many other worthwhile moves on Gyarados. Most two move combonations will be more than enough to sweep teams. Most Gyarados counters are slow or have Natural Cure/Marvel Scale/Rest anyways and won't care about Thunder Wave.
 
Today, the only thing you'll TWave that's actually worth paralyzing is normally Scarf Gengar, or occasionally Deoxys-E, who both switch in expecting a Dragon Dance. However, TWave Gyarados is not usless. Gyarados doesn't always have to be running a attack moveset, even with it's 125 base attack. Look at Donphan, 120 base attack, and its main use is a physical wall. Gyarados has what, 90 or 95 base HP, 100 base SpDef and Intimidate. Running a bulky support set is very viable in my opinion, there's no reason why it wouldn't work. It would also probably catch a lot of people by surprise.
 
Phuquoph said:
How many things that switch into Gyarados really care about being paralyzed? Starmie and Celebi have Natural Cure, HP Electric Vaporeon/Milotic/Slowbro, etc. are slow to begin with (and you're actually helping Milotic). Cresselia usually has Rest, and also isn't that bothered about being paralyzed.

Thunder Wave is just a mild annoyance for them (if you're lucky).
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Agreed.

IggyBot said:
Today, the only thing you'll TWave that's actually worth paralyzing is normally Scarf Gengar, or occasionally Deoxys-E, who both switch in expecting a Dragon Dance. However, TWave Gyarados is not usless. Gyarados doesn't always have to be running a attack moveset, even with it's 125 base attack. Look at Donphan, 120 base attack, and its main use is a physical wall. Gyarados has what, 90 or 95 base HP, 100 base SpDef and Intimidate. Running a bulky support set is very viable in my opinion, there's no reason why it wouldn't work. It would also probably catch a lot of people by surprise.
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Only reason you should even think of using him as a bulky support pokemon since other pokemon can do it better than him.
 
How about putting both T-Wave and DD on the BulkDos?

Also T-Wave can cripple Physical Attackers like Salamence even more, than just with Intimidiate.

DD makes Gyarados stronger and faster, T-Wave has the possibility of activating Motor Drive.
 
SkarmBliss said:
How about putting both T-Wave and DD on the BulkDos?

Also T-Wave can cripple Physical Attackers like Salamence even more, than just with Intimidiate.

DD makes Gyarados stronger and faster, T-Wave has the possibility of activating Motor Drive.
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I don't exactly agree with Gyarados carrying T-Wave, I think Dragon Dance should stay and leave T-Wave out. If you want to cripple the opponents, let a wall or tank do that.
 
DD on Gyarados seems more like an intrinsic move for he to be considered a Pokémon. Thunder Wave isn't bad, it's just that Dragon Dance is better.
 
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