Gyarados put me out of a job! (Feraligatr discussion.)

RaikouLover

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Meh… there was a discussion about this just a couple months ago. O well…

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22553

However, based on this thread, Feraligatr has the usage of a UU thus far.

Discuss Feraligatr. I’m basically making a plea that Feraligatr is a monster and should be standard. I read the analysis and pondered some additional sets to make him more then just a cheap Gyarados clone. Think about it: Good enough base stats, Dragon Dance, Swords Dance, no 4X weakness to electric, Grass knot does not have an extremely high base power against him, and water is a great defensive type. And lets not be so quick to label Torrent as useless and the excuse to pick that atrocious fish snake over our hardy reptile. Feraligatr absolutely shits on UU and would rape BL also. I’ll explain:

Base Stats

85 HP (Almost!)
105 AT (Meh…Good enough)
100 DF (= Gyarados SpD)
78 SP (3 point difference!)
79 SpA (not needed)
83 SpD ( >Gyarados DF)

Noteable Physical Movepool:

Aerial Ace
Aqua Tail
Avalanche
Body Slam
Brick Break
Crunch
Double-Edge
Dragon Claw
Dynamicpunch
Earthquake
Façade
Focus Punch
Frustration
Ice Fang
Ice Punch
Iron Tail
Rock Slide
Shadow Claw
Superpower
Thrash
Waterfall

Not bad….

Special Movepool:

Ancientpower
Blizzard
Dragon Pulse
Focus Blast
Hydro Pump
Ice Beam
Icy Wind
Surf
Water Pulse

Support Movepool:

Agility (Fuck you Gyarados)
Dragon Dance (Put me out of a job!)
Mimic
Roar
Scary Face
Screech
Swords Dance (Fuck you Gyarados)

Other Moves:

Counter
Seismic Toss

Nice movepool. I skipped the irrelevant moves.

Set 1

Feraligatr @ Liechi Berry
Ability: Torrent***
Nature: Adamant
EVs: 220 HP / 108 AT / 44 SP / 136 SpD
*Dragon Dance
*Waterfall
*Return/Rock Slide
*Substitute

This unleashes the monster that Feraligatr is. The EVs mentioned gives the following stats: 366 HP / 300 AT (I like even numbers) / 236 DF / 203 SP / 236 SpD, making it essentially a Bulky Gyarados with no intimidate and slightly lower HP. Bring him in on something harmless and Dragon Dance. If they switch to a counter, just Dragon Dance a second time. If they leave the pokemon in, they can call it quits because he’s pretty tough to take down as it is. Dragon Dancing the second time gives you 600 Attack and 406 Speed to outrun Choice Scarfers and makes victory within sight. Now it is just a matter of getting your HP to the red (a counter should do this right away or you can just sub down yourself). Liechi Berry raises your attack to +3, which is 750. Not only that, Torrent multiplies your Waterfall by another 1.5, NOT just another +1 boost. Ouch!!! Beware the 'Gator...

I ran some average damage calculations on a couple non-electric switch-in with max attack stats:

Modest Azelf Thunderbolt 242.79
Timid Azelf Thunderbolt 221.1
Timid Starmie Thunderbolt 190.22
Salamence Choice Specs Draco Meteor 365.95 (about 50% chance)

Therefore, run when you see Salamence and aren’t fully set up, laugh at Azelf and Starmie, and keep him away from electric types.

On the Flipside, here are some average damage calculations for Feraligator with +3 Attack + Torrent Waterfall.

Max Defense Cresselia/Bronzong 286.29
Max Defense Blissey (lol!) 811.48
Max Defense Gliscor 542.43
Max Defense Skarmory 256.45
Max Defense Swampert 347.15

As for the Intimidators (Rock Slide with +2):

Standard Bulky Gyarados 296.45
Standard No Def EV Salamence 360.67

I’m not even going to try any other Physical Walls that because they’re weak to waterfall and most share defensive stats of Gliscor, who gets his ass handed to him.

How about a standard average moderate defense pokemon like Garchomp, (95 base, great HP, never has EVs but still looks at defensive stats over 200)

……………. 470.61 Ouch!

With all these attack boosts, only the toughest of pokemon will be able to survive ONE waterfall, and a random flinch hax can screw any thought of dispatching him meaning you can sweep through entire teams.

Set 2:

Feraligatr @ Salac Berry
Ability: Torrent
Nature: Adamant/Jolly
EVs Adamant: 4 HP / 252 AT / 252 SP
EVs: Jolly: 36 HP / 252 AT / 220 SP
*Swords Dance
*Waterfall
*Return/Rock Slide
*Substitute

Same concept, except this one uses 271 speed with Jolly for Choice Scarfers, and the standard 254 speed with Adamant outruns everything important and gives much more initial attack. Swords Dance on the switch, attack until the HP is low, and the Salac Berry makes you faster than everything so u can pummel things with the Beefed up Torrented Waterfall.

Feraligatr is quite capable for standard battling. That is just too much power for UU or even BL. Discuss.
 
I happen to be a user of feraligator. There was another thread just like this I saw on google. Anyway, I use

Feraligator @ Life orb
torrent
Adamant
252 attack/252 speed/4hp
Dragon dance
Waterfall
Earthquake
Ice punch

Why wait for them to take you down to torrents 1/3 hp boost when life orb does it for you and makes you even stronger.

......Of course gyarados with the same item and moveset can do it a hell of alot better.....stay AWAY from my feraligator!!!
 
One problem I see with these sets is that Sandstorm can whittle you down for the kill, as you don't have leftovers to keep your health up. With the abundance of Tyranitar and Hippowdon, this could be an issue. I would suggest leftovers instead of Salac, as the extra boost seems almost overkill. I'd also add a few more EVs into SpDef, just to ensure Specsmence won't kill you, but that's just my way of doing things.

I've loved Feraligatr since GSC, and with the physical/special split I think he can really shine. I'll be using him in standard, at least.
 
I think the main reason Feraligatr will never become a standard in OU play is that he is similar enough Gyarados, but is outclassed by Gyarados in several ways, some which you have mentioned before. First and most importantly, I think is Gyarados' complete immunity to the most used and probably feared physical attack in the game (Earthquake). I think that, and the fact that his only weaknesses are rock and electric, in which case the threat of giving Electivire a Motor Boost scares the crap out of people so much some hesitate to use an electric attack right away, giving Gyarados even more of an advantage.

Feraligatr can't switch into any attack without seeing ANY damage liek Gyarados can, and while I guess I suppose you would switch it in versus water/ice attacks, the idea of some water carrying Grass Knot for Swampert would make me a little hesitant to send it in anyway. You said Grass Knot doesnt do a ton of damage (I'll trust you, I don't know and I didn't do the calcluations), but it is still supper effective versus him and I feel like a ton of things can learn it.

That being said, I think it's awesome that you are looking into non-standard pokemon and it's extremely refreshing as well. While I don't think Feraligatr will ever surpass Gyarados and therefore never become too OU, I think it can find a niche for players who don't like to battle with bog standards all of the time. It seemed like you put alot of effort into your analysis, so I figured I would attempt to post my thoughts in some detail. Take my advice with a grain of salt, I'm relatively new to the competitive scene in D/P after a long exile from the days of GSC on mIRC.

Now thats a hell of a long first post. ^_^
 
I've got a bit of a grudge against his line. He was my sister's starter for Gold, and she was always cheap and used the starter strong to mine (FUCK YEAH TYPHLOSION)

But now he's stronger and Typhosion's weaker, and THAT MAKES ME ANGRY >:U
 
Feraligatr can give Gyara a run for his money in terms of offence, but Gyara shits all over him when it comes to defence.

Gyara's Intimidate and excellent secondary Flying type (giving him resistance to Bug and Fighting and immunity to Ground) means that he can actually counter pokes like Heracross, Infernape, etc, which would simply rip Feraligatr apart if it tried to switch in on them.

That is IMO the main reason why Gyara simply outclasses Feral - the excellent balance of offence and defence that the reptile just doesn't have.
 
DMFG said:
Feraligatr can give Gyara a run for his money in terms of offence, but Gyara shits all over him when it comes to defence.

Gyara's Intimidate and excellent secondary Flying type (giving him resistance to Bug and Fighting and immunity to Ground) means that he can actually counter pokes like Heracross, Infernape, etc, which would simply rip Feraligatr apart if it tried to switch in on them.

That is IMO the main reason why Gyara simply outclasses Feral - the excellent balance of offence and defence that the reptile just doesn't have.
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I suppose it's worth mentioning that Feraligatr doesn't have a Rock weakness (which is important; Gyarados will take quite a bit of Stealth Rock damage). In the long one, I guess you should pick the one that covers your weaknesses best, but it will be Gyarados in most cases.
 
Probably because with Adamant, Feral's max Speed is 255. With max Speed and Jolly, he reaches 280, which will let him outspeed more stuff, because of Heracross at 269, and many other Pokémon outspeeding Herecross with 270.
 
Saanaito said:
Probably because with Adamant, Feral's max Speed is 255. With max Speed and Jolly, he reaches 280, which will let him outspeed more stuff, because of Heracross at 269, and many other Pokémon outspeeding Herecross with 270.
Click to expand...

Oh, I see. I guess Choice Scarf wouldn't suit him very well, so we should just Dragon Dance.
 
Feraligatr isn't good enough to use a Choice Scarf. Tough such moveset can cause some problems on OU Metagame since it's unexpected.

Feraligatr@ Choice Scarf
Jolly Nature
Max Atk, 270 Spd, leftovers on HP

Waterfal
Ice Punch
Brick Break
Earthquake

Other Options: Crunch, Aerial Ace

It can cover most OU things and surprise OHKO most of them. Waterfall is just STAB and can damage Infernape. IP take dragons, Brick Break Ttar/Weavile, Earthquake electrics.

Crunch will give Starmie, Slowbro and psychics problems. Aerial OHKO Heracross which is good since you outspeed Scarf heracross.

This set doesn't have sweeping potential, but can sweep a lot of OU stuff on the middle-game.

Edit: Some people said Feraligatr doesn't take as many damage from GK as Gyarados does. In fact, it doesn't have the same BP, but Gatr takes super effective, making the damage much bigger. I'm a huge fan of the blue alligator, but I still have to point its weakness.
 
How about this:

Feraligatr @ Wacan Berry(resist Elec)
~ Dragon Dance
~ Earthquake
~ Waterfall
~ Ice Punch

Yeah, this is the DD Set, but the idea is that Fergy outspeeds most of the Grass types that would switch in, and they risk eating an Ice Punch. Electrics, on the other hand, especially Jolteon, outspeed Fergy even after one DD. Wacan Berry allows a second, and then Fergy can tear through an opposing team. It would also likely put Fergy in Torrent HP, boosting Waterfall to an even greater power level.
 
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