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Welcome to the GSC OU discussion thread! This thread is intended to be used to share insights into current trends, show off and help others with their teams, analyse and critique gameplay, and just about anything else related to the second generation's flagship metagame here on Smogon.
To start discussion I'd like to address the elephant in the room when it comes to offence teams. This was something that had been pointed out to me by Blaine500 and I am happy to hear discussion on this topic.
Just because we have slowly shifted to a more offensive and "optimized" meta does not mean that, at least initially, some of our performances do not show a blindspot. As far as teambuilding is concerned, there is a trend that we are all aware of and it's that many offence teams seem relatively ill-equipped for 2 particular threats.
Me getting harassed by a grammar bot that automatically promotes BKC 's spelling propaganda.
The first one, players seem to have caught wind of in recent years and either, A) decided that building in a way that specifically counters it is too costly, or B) decided that we can just play around. The second pokemon isn't something you can't be "prepared" against, but rather is able to take advantage of 2-4 members of a team by virtue of its typing and attacks. (I am speaking on behalf of high level play since most inexperienced players try to change their teams to face anything and everything that makes them feel uncomfortable).
Jynx is a powerhouse of a pokemon and perhaps deservedly one of the most threatening special attackers in the tier of GSC OU. It may not be as effective in certain scenarios as Gengar or Zapdos, but you may find yourself wondering if it's worth not putting on a team when you find that you've made space for a sweeper-like mon. The moveset I have in mind is one that has become synonymous with the pokemon itself and it really says a lot on how the metagame is affected by this off beat meta pick.
You could have argued once that this poke was an anti-meta pick in 2018 or something since it seemed to counter many staple pokemon that aren't seeing as much usage, like Exeggutor or Marowak. But to say that Jynx's insurgence triggered the downfall of these two threats may be a bit of a stretch, especially if we consider how many more pokemon out there that are weak to it are still being used. Let's look at some calcs:
Jynx Ice Beam vs. Zapdos: 245-288 (63.9 - 75.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery Ice Beam
Jynx Ice Beam vs. Nidoking: 272-320 (74.5 - 87.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Jynx Ice Beam vs. Golem: 296-348 (81.5 - 95.8%) -- 56.4% chance to OHKO after Spikes
Jynx Ice Beam vs. Steelix: 148-174 (41.9 - 49.2%) -- 20.8% chance to 2HKO after Spikes and Leftovers recovery
Pscychic
Jynx Psychic vs. Gengar: 256-302 (79.2 - 93.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Jynx Psychic vs. Machamp: 239-282 (62.4 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Jynx Psychic vs. Cloyster: 169-199 (55.7 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Jynx Psychic vs. Heracross: 224-264 (61.7 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Jynx Ice Beam vs. -1 Raikou: 171-202 (44.6 - 52.7%) -- 85.6% chance to 2HKO after Spikes and Leftovers recovery
Jynx Ice Beam vs. -1 Zapdos: 374-440 (97.6 - 114.8%) -- 87.2% chance to OHKO
Jynx Ice Beam vs. -1 Snorlax: 161-190 (30.7 - 36.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
Jynx Psychic vs. -1 Vaporeon: 169-199 (36.5 - 42.9%) -- 98.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
...
The offensive metagame's general weakness to Jynx's Psychic and Ice typing enables it more than other special attackers to fish for RNG based effects (Freeze or Spdef drop) or setup a substitute, even causing in certain cases a shift of the momentum in a teams favor when they otherwise might have been losing. Whether or not this is considered a competitive matchup, offence teams have to account for it, hence why I think it's interesting to point out. Unlike other special attackers, Jynx has a tendency to work well even in matchups where it shouldn't (it can reliably setup substitute and bombard a sleep talk lax or Raikou with the right sleep rolls, fish for freezes against it and other checks like Starmie or even put heal bell stall teams out of commision by using Lovely Kiss on Blissey). One of the other aspects that helps Jynx is that Dark types that should naturally counter Jynx, either can't find a place on a team due to competition or just don't work. Tyranitar being the obvious check to Jynx, fits on many teams, but I do not forsee the entire playerbase deciding to renounce Steelix or Golem or Rhydon there just to counter Jynx without first assessing the risk of Zapdos they are exposing themselves to. Tyranitar isn't immune to being put to sleep or being frozen either and, often times due to the slow pace of many normal resisting mons, can be whittled down to a point where a 3HKO is likely. Houndoom on the other hand has the problem of being less splashable and Umbreon can't do enough damage.
Jynx is so centralizing in today's meta, not only for the fact that it's currently included in 4 of the recently updated sample teams, but its moveset is simply outstanding. There are other combinations of moves that work, including using Thief over Substitute, which 9/10 steals leftovers from two of the most powerful pokemon in the tier (Snorlax or Raikou or even Zapdos).
Now onto Starmie.
This one you might not have expected (If you did, congratulations! You are cool) because you conceived this pokemon as a
"strictly stall" pick, with a few minor exceptions. Starmie is arguably one of the best spinners in the meta and has a really good matchup against
spikers and spinners of all shapes and sizes. I think when someone looks at GSC OU Starmie, they forget how much of a threat it was in RBY and how
it's still among the higher echelon of special attacking powerhouses (just not quite the highest). Like Jynx it is surprisingly strong against Boom offence teams, but it's more for its ability to disrupt and the speed control than for hax (it's also probably superior to Jynx from a purely defensive standpoint). I noticed that out of the 12 offence sample teams, 9 have more than 2 pokemon that are either weak to its STAB or are walled by it. Starmie also has access to some of the best coverage this metagame has to offer, if not the absolute best in all of old gens. It can learn Blizzard, Thunder, Ice Beam, Thunderbolt, Psychic, Surf and Hydro Pump, a movepool not many other pokemon can compete with. By comparison Gengar doesn't learn Ice Beam and Jynx doesn't learn Thunder and neither of these learn Hydro Pump.
Furthermore, Starmie's Water and Psychic typing play a much more defensive role against certain staples, like Machamp, Vaporeon, and, yes..., even Jynx. There is no doubt about how good it is on defensive teams but I believe it being written off as "stall teams only choice" is a great misuse of this wonderful toy!
With STAB water moves this Starmie acts as a check to Nidoking, Tyranitar, Golem, Steelix, Rhydon, Houndoom and Jynx and it just hits so many things neutrally. I found some moderate success with a team that was built on the GSC discord which included this particular set:
Hydro Pump is a key move in that it can deal significant amounts of damage by virtue of the elevated base power, when compared to Surf. It has a 99.1% chance to actually 3HKO Zapdos if that says anything and with it you will never be afraid of being targetted by a Steelix trying to explode on it to clear the way for Machamp, because Steelix will be OHKO'd. A special shoutout to Fear who innovatively inspired us with Nightmare substitute Starmie in SPL XI week 6. Personally I remembered Sulcata bringing it in GSC cup VI in 2020, which he won, but that wasn't until the milkman had been pestered by our Greek hero in that famous SPL game. I guess the best path to victory is learning from a loss.
Here are a few replays which showcase its latent and unexplored power. (I will update this with some SPL replays).
Jynx is two things, mostly. (1) How powerful Psychic actually is as an offensive typing. Like Electric, it's a fairly neutral typing and thus difficult to defend against. Eggy makes very good use of its own Psychic typing, as well as the odd Espeon and Alakazam. (2) It's a sleeper that threatens the metagame's most ubiquitous Sleep Talker, Zapdos. Its Ice typing is also fairly complementary to its Psychic typing offensively. Now, I'm not convinced Substitute is particularly amazing on it, but that's kind of a free moveslot to play around with anyway.
Spin Starmie is a fine if somewhat overused role player. I particularly prefer it on teams with clerics because adding Miltank or Blissey to your standard Lax + Spiker team base tends to make you horribly weak to Machamp, especially considering most stall teams opt for Raikou, who doesn't resist Fighting, over Zapdos. I'm much more interested in Nightmare Sub Starmie as a unique offensive threat, though. Sub is frustrating to play against if you're using the more common Thunder on your Electric(s) and Nightmare breaks Snorlax (and to a lesser extent Raikou) in a way that no other special attacker is capable of short of Vaporeon. It is reasonably handled by Tbolt Electrics, but the more important bit is it's a special attacker that beats Snorlax.
Overall really enjoying the metagame at the moment, tiers really fun to play and I’ve been experimenting with a lot of interesting stuff recently. I agree with cherryb0ng regarding Jynx and Starmie and how they affect the tier. Jynx especially is a big threat and forces a lot of offensive teams to run stuff like RestTalk Lax/Vaporeon to not be awful against it. The Spikes game is an especially big part of the metagame at the moment I feel, with a lot of games being decided off it. Anyway, on to two underrated sets I’ve been running recently.
This is a Lax set I’ve been running a bit recently. Its pretty hard to take down naturally, and with QuakeThrower+Double Edge it has great coverage and hits hard. Its pretty good vs a lot of offensive teams(Lead Egg TarGar stuff for example) and stall. RestTalk Raikou is a great partner since it can deal with Jynx, Zapdos etc because Lax is not running RestTalk and can’t handle them as well.
Meganium @ Leftovers
Ability: none
- Swords Dance
- Body Slam
- Earthquake
- Synthesis
SD Meganium is not anything new, but I feel its underrated in the current metagame and a solid anti metagame pick. While it definitely has flaws(Can’t hurt Skarm, lets in Cloy and Forre, hates every status), a lot of NidoGarTar stuff is really weak to this thing assuming you can weaken stuff like Snorlax. Its solid against Zapdos and favoured to beat it 1v1 unless it has Drill Peck(although Thunder para / TWave are annoying), and hard walls RestTalk Vaporeon. Speaking of Vaporeon, it pairs great with SD Meg as they both deal with a lot of each others weaknesses(Meganium can switch into Electrics and threaten them with Body Slam paralysis, and Vaporeon beats Skarmory and Fires etc). Using both is also good security against Ground and Rock types. Support Meganium with Reflect, Leech Seed, Razor Leaf, and Synthesis is another thing Meganium can do, and is a great support Pokemon thats a pain for CurseLax due to Leech Seed and Reflect often forcing it out. Overall, I’m a big fan of this mon and here’s a team I’ve been running it on
To start discussion I'd like to address the elephant in the room when it comes to offence teams. This was something that had been pointed out to me by Blaine500 and I am happy to hear discussion on this topic.
Just because we have slowly shifted to a more offensive and "optimized" meta does not mean that, at least initially, some of our performances show a blindspot. As far as teambuilding is concerned, there is a trend that we are all aware of and it's that many offence teams seem relatively ill-equipped for 2 particular threats. View attachment 361673 Me getting harassed by a grammar bot that automatically promotes BKC 's spelling propaganda.
The first one, players seem to have caught wind of in recent years and either, A) decided that building in a way that specifically counters it is too costly, or B) decided that we can just play around. The second pokemon isn't something you can't be "prepared" against, but rather is able to take advantage of 2-4 members of a team by virtue of its typing and attacks. (I am speaking on behalf of high level play since most inexperienced players try to change their teams to face anything and everything that makes them feel uncomfortable).
Jynx is a powerhouse of a pokemon and perhaps deservedly one of the most threatening special attackers in the tier of GSC OU. It may not be as effective in certain scenarios as Gengar or Zapdos, but you may find yourself wondering if it's worth not putting on a team when you find that you've made space for a sweeper-like mon. The moveset I have in mind is one that has become synonymous with the pokemon itself and it really says a lot on how the metagame is affected by this off beat meta pick.
You could have argued once that this pick was an anti-meta pick in 2018 or something since it seemed to counter many staple pokemon that aren't seeing as much usage, like Exeggutor or Marowak. But to say that Jynx's insurgence triggered the downfall of these two threats may be a bit of a stretch, especially if we consider how many more pokemon out there that are weak to it are still being used. Let's look at some calcs:
Jynx Ice Beam vs. Zapdos: 245-288 (63.9 - 75.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery Ice Beam
Jynx Ice Beam vs. Nidoking: 272-320 (74.5 - 87.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Jynx Ice Beam vs. Golem: 296-348 (81.5 - 95.8%) -- 56.4% chance to OHKO after Spikes
Jynx Ice Beam vs. Steelix: 148-174 (41.9 - 49.2%) -- 20.8% chance to 2HKO after Spikes and Leftovers recovery
Pscychic
Jynx Psychic vs. Gengar: 256-302 (79.2 - 93.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Jynx Psychic vs. Machamp: 239-282 (62.4 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Jynx Psychic vs. Cloyster: 169-199 (55.7 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Jynx Psychic vs. Heracross: 224-264 (61.7 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Jynx Ice Beam vs. -1 Raikou: 171-202 (44.6 - 52.7%) -- 85.6% chance to 2HKO after Spikes and Leftovers recovery
Jynx Ice Beam vs. -1 Zapdos: 374-440 (97.6 - 114.8%) -- 87.2% chance to OHKO
Jynx Ice Beam vs. -1 Snorlax: 161-190 (30.7 - 36.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
Jynx Psychic vs. -1 Vaporeon: 169-199 (36.5 - 42.9%) -- 98.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
...
The offensive metagame's general weakness to Jynx's Psychic and Ice typing enables it more than other special attackers to fish for RNG based effects (Freeze or Spdef drop) or setup a substitute, even causing in certain cases a shift of the momentum in a teams favor when they otherwise might have been losing. Whether or not this is considered a competitive matchup which offence teams have to take into account or not, I think it's interesting to point out. Unlike other special attackers, Jynx has a tendency to work well even in matchups where it shouldn't (it can reliably setup substitute and bombard a sleep talk lax or Raikou with the right sleep rolls, fish for freezes against it or Starmie or even put heal bell stall teams out of commision by using Lovely Kiss on Blissey). One of the other aspects that helps Jynx is that Dark types that should naturally counter Jynx, either can't find a place on a team due to competition or just don't work. Tyranitar being the obvious check to Jynx, fits on many teams, but I do not forsee the entire playerbase deciding to renounce Steelix or Golem or Rhydon there just to counter Jynx without first assessing the risk of Zapdos they are exposing themselves to. Tyranitar isn't immune to being frozen either and, often times due to the slow pace of many normal resisting mons, can be whittled down to a point where a 3HKO is likely. Houndoom on the other hand has the problem of being less splashable and Umbreon can't do enough damage.
Jynx is so centralizing in today's meta, not only for the fact that it's currently included in 4 of the recently updated sample teams, but it's moveset
is simply outstanding. There are other combinations of moves that work, including using Thief over Substitute, which 9/10 steals leftovers from two
of the most powerful pokemon in the tier (Snorlax or Raikou or even Zapdos).
Now onto Starmie.
This one you might not have expected (If you did, congratulations! You are cool) because you conceived this pokemon as a
"strictly stall" pick, with a few minor exceptions. Starmie is arguably one of the best spinners in the meta and has a really good matchup against
spikers and spinners of all shapes and sizes. I think when someone looks at GSC OU Starmie, they forget how much of a threat it was in RBY and how
it's still is among the higher eschelon of special attacking power (just not quite the highest). Like Jynx it is surprisingly strong against Boom offence teams, but it's more for its ability to disrupt and the speed control than for hax (it's also probably superior from a purely defensive standpoint). I noticed that out of the 12 offence sample teams, 9 have more than 2 pokemon that are either weak to its STAB or are walled by it. Starmie also has access to some of the best coverage this metagame has to offer, if not the absolute best in all of old gens. It can learn Blizzard, Thunder, Ice Beam, Thunderbolt, Psychic, Surf and Hydro Pump, a movepool not many other pokemon can compete with. By comparison Gengar doesn't learn Ice Beam and Jynx doesn't learn Thunder and neither of these learn Hydro Pump.
Furthermore, Starmie's Water and Psychic typing play a much more defensive role against certain staples, like Machamp, Vaporeon, and, yes..., even Jynx. There is no doubt about how good it is on defensive teams but I believe it being put and left on the shelf of stall teams is a great misuse of this wonderful toy!
With STAB water moves this Starmie acts as a check to Nidoking, Tyranitar, Golem, Steelix, Rhydon, Houndoom and Jynx and it just hits so many things neutrally. I found some moderate success with a team that was built on the GSC discord which included this particular set:
Hydro Pump is a key move in that it can deal significant amounts of damage by virtue of the elevated base power, when compared to Surf. It has a 99.1% chance to actually 3HKO Zapdos if that says anything and with it you will never be afraid of being targetted by a Steelix trying to explode on it to clear the way for Machamp, because Steelix will be OHKO'd. A special shoutout to Fear who innovatively inspired us with Nightmare substitute Starmie in SPL XI week 6. Personally I remembered Sulcata bringing it in GSC cup VI in 2020, which he won, but that wasn't until the milkman had been pestered by the inventor in that famous SPL game. I guess the best path to victory is learning from a loss.
Here are a few replays which showcase its latent and unexplored power. (I will update this with some SPL replays).
Have you considered a type-boosting Item? At least on Starmie, since it isn't using Substitite and already knows Recover for healing.
It would also partner well with Hydro Pump, as Mystic Water gives it an 18 base power boost, which includes STAB, and if you are super effective that becomes 36 base power, which is about the difference in power between Surf and Hydro Pump after STAB (142.5 + 36 = 178.5 which is on par with 180 from Hydro Pump).
I think a Pokemon on the cusp of being just powerful enough, would appreciate a little boost to secure some hits, and could replace Thunder Wave for a pure offensive set.
Overall really enjoying the metagame at the moment, tiers really fun to play and I’ve been experimenting with a lot of interesting stuff recently. I agree with cherryb0ng regarding Jynx and Starmie and how they affect the tier. Jynx especially is a big threat and forces a lot of offensive teams to run stuff like RestTalk Lax/Vaporeon to not be awful against it. The Spikes game is an especially big part of the metagame at the moment I feel, with a lot of games being decided off it. Anyway, on to two underrated sets I’ve been running recently.
This is a Lax set I’ve been running a bit recently. Its pretty hard to take down naturally, and with QuakeThrower+Double Edge it has great coverage and hits hard. Its pretty good vs a lot of offensive teams(Lead Egg TarGar stuff for example) and stall. RestTalk Raikou is a great partner since it can deal with Jynx, Zapdos etc because Lax is not running RestTalk and can’t handle them as well.
Meganium @ Leftovers
Ability: none
- Swords Dance
- Body Slam
- Earthquake
- Synthesis
SD Meganium is not anything new, but I feel its underrated in the current metagame and a solid anti metagame pick. While it definitely has flaws(Can’t hurt Skarm, lets in Cloy and Forre, hates every status), a lot of NidoGarTar stuff is really weak to this thing assuming you can weaken stuff like Snorlax. Its solid against Zapdos and favoured to beat it 1v1 unless it has Drill Peck(although Thunder para / TWave are annoying), and hard walls RestTalk Vaporeon. Speaking of Vaporeon, it pairs great with SD Meg as they both deal with a lot of each others weaknesses(Meganium can switch into Electrics and threaten them with Body Slam paralysis, and Vaporeon beats Skarmory and Fires etc). Using both is also good security against Ground and Rock types. Support Meganium with Reflect, Leech Seed, Razor Leaf, and Synthesis is another thing Meganium can do, and is a great support Pokemon thats a pain for CurseLax due to Leech Seed and Reflect often forcing it out. Overall, I’m a big fan of this mon and here’s a team I’ve been running it on
The lax set I've only seen once actually and it was in a stall match between me and Earthworm. Really fun and underrated set but essentially patches all blindspots in snorlax coverage, leaving it with virtually nothing to resist it. I think it could fit decently well on a stall team, substituting the common flame toxic lax.
As for the Meganium. It's cool. It has a decent speed tier and paralysis support to boot. There are lots of things you can do with Meganium depending on the scenario. The ground resistance is helpful. I guess it could be Zapdos 1v1 but it does have to worry about status from other mons and coming in on a Zapdos can make the situation a little bit trickier. I think that this mon may have a harder time proving itself useful against stall.
Your Meganium team is extremely weak to Jynx and Machamp. Maybe forretress over Cloyster could at least give you a mon that resists Jynx's attacks and can threaten a boom.
Have you considered a type-boosting Item? At least on Starmie, since it isn't using Substitite and already knows Recover for healing.
It would also partner well with Hydro Pump, as Mystic Water gives it an 18 base power boost, which includes STAB, and if you are super effective that becomes 36 base power, which is about the difference in power between Surf and Hydro Pump after STAB (142.5 + 36 = 178.5 which is on par with 180 from Hydro Pump).
I think a Pokemon on the cusp of being just powerful enough, would appreciate a little boost to secure some hits, and could replace Thunder Wave for a pure offensive set.
I didn't get around to this comment because I didn't check any calcs. I think that you don't want Psychic and Blizzard together because each move tends to have slightly better coverage with Hydro Pump.
I believe I've seen a mystic water Hydro Starmie on full Growth pass teams. The difference with Leftovers is that in Rain (or just at +1 without Rain), a Mystic Water boosted Hydro Pump is a guaranteed 3HKO on Snorlax. By comparison, the next best Starmie check that doesn't resist it is Raikou, who is 2HKOed under the same conditions and risks even losing the speed tie (but Starmie should be weary of increasing Thunder accuracy with Rain).
No Rain +1 Starmie Hydro Pump vs. Snorlax: 182-214 (34.7 - 40.9%) -- 63.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 Mystic Water Starmie Hydro Pump vs. Snorlax: 199-235 (38 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
With Rain Mystic Water Starmie Hydro Pump vs. Snorlax in Rain: 199-235 (38 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Starmie Hydro Pump vs. Snorlax in Rain: 183-216 (34.9 - 41.3%) -- 75% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
" To start discussion I'd like to address the elephant in the room when it comes to offence teams. This was something that had been pointed out to me by Blaine500 and I am happy to hear discussion on this topic. Just because we have slowly shifted to a more offensive and "optimized" meta does not mean that, at least initially, some of our performances show a blindspot. As far as teambuilding is concerned, there is a trend that we are all aware of and it's that many offence teams seem relatively ill-equipped for 2 particular threats." - Cherryb0ng
Yes indeed, that is correct. In more recent years its been my observation that many offensively oriented teams seem to fall short from a team structure/weakness perspective to at least 1 of these 3 mons being: Starmie, Nidoking and Jynx (or as I've been calling them the "SNJ" trio).
That is not to say that said teams aren't able to handle the pressure of these mons through offensive means in order to win (and a lot can be said about that), but from a strictly defensive typing perspective "the trio" does seem to come up on top quite often from their sheer coverage moves alone and this is something to be mindful of when team building.
While you may have the upperhand early on, crits/status add up thus making things shift quickly and having a team with stacked weaknesses to a single mon can make affairs grim for you in the endgame. If they play it smart and perserve said mon until the conditions are "just right" they can proceed to cleave through the opposition like butter once given the opportunity. The ever so popular: Gar, Nido, Jynx, Cloy, Lax and Dos team that so many players love comes to mind. While it is offensively very sound and gets the job done, it is somewhat starmie weak.
Gengar gets outspeed and 2hko cleanly by Starmie's Psychic vs. Gengar: 234-276 (72.4 - 85.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Spikes and Leftovers recovery, or 1hko with some previous chip damage and spikes,
Nidoking is weak to both of Starmie's stabs and gets ohko by Starmie's Hydro Pump vs. Nidoking: 311-366 (85.2 - 100.2%) -- 84.6% chance to OHKO after Spikes,
while Jynx isn't weak to Starmie per say it does have both of its stabs resisted by Starmie while being cleanly 3hko by Starmie's Surf vs. Jynx: 107-126 (32.1 - 37.8%) -- 96.1% chance to 3HKO after Spikes and Leftovers recovery,
and then there's Cloyster who is ohkoed by thunder (assuming starmie is running that) Starmie's Thunder vs. Cloyster: 272-320 (89.7 - 105.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Spikes or gets cleanly 2hkoed by Starmie's Psychic vs. Cloyster: 154-181 (50.8 - 59.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Spikes and Leftovers recovery.
Snorlax and Zapdos are easily the main things standing in starmie's way for a well timed sweep against a team like this, however, even they can be defeated if they're put into Hydro pump range through team support or thanks to well placed crits/sp.def drops given that starmie outspeeds them both.
Starmie's Hydro Pump vs. Snorlax: 122-144 (23.3 - 27.5%) -- 4% chance to 4HKO after Spikes and Leftovers recovery
Starmie's Hydro Pump vs. -1 Snorlax: 184-217 (35.1 - 41.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Spikes and Leftovers recovery
Starmie's Hydro Pump vs. Snorlax on a critical hit: 242-285 (46.2 - 54.4%) -- 98.9% chance to 2HKO after Spikes and Leftovers recovery
Starmie's Hydro Pump vs. -1 Snorlax on a critical hit: 367-432 (70.1 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Spikes and Leftovers recovery
Starmie's Hydro Pump vs. Zapdos: 140-165 (36.5 - 43%) -- 99.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Starmie's Hydro Pump vs. -1 Zapdos: 212-250 (55.3 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Starmie's Hydro Pump vs. Zapdos on a critical hit: 278-327 (72.5 - 85.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Starmie's Hydro Pump vs. -1 Zapdos on a critical hit: 423-498 (110.4 - 130%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Similar defensive weaknesses can be observed even on the micro scale in many of our beloved pairings such as:
+ that ends ups Nido weak (Skarm -> thunder and Kou -> earthquake)
or
+ that is Jynx weak (Champ -> psychic and Nido-> ice beam).
The coverage of these 3 is very extensive and it can be hard to get the balancing act to where it needs to be while team building but they do serve as a great way of determining if you've got significant defensive flaws to address and are something to keep an eye out for while in the heat of battle.
and then there's Cloyster who is ohkoed by thunder (assuming starmie is running that) Starmie's Thunder vs. Cloyster: 272-320 (89.7 - 105.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Spikes or gets cleanly 2hkoed by Starmie's Psychic vs. Cloyster: 154-181 (50.8 - 59.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Spikes and Leftovers recovery.
I don't think Thunder is worth considering. Mentioning, perhaps, but in my experience, Starmie with Thunder leaves so much else to be desired against a plethora of other threats it would much rather be able to hit. There is one threat that a Thunder/bolt starmie can help threaten and that's Vaporeon.
The Vaporeon-Starmie matchup is a mixed bag but it generally favors Starmie 1v1 on the condition that it has Psychic or an electric move (light screen can be risky and Nightmare would mean that it has to expend 4+ Surfs to actually force it to Rest, something which becomes unviable once the Vaporeon reaches multiple growths). Vaporeon's only win condition is to some how muster the strength to withstand a barrage of Psychics while trying to setup and hope that Starmie doesn't get a Spdef drop. Starmies that lack the coverage only have the option of stalling out the Vaporeon of Surfs by spamming recover.
Starmie's main strengths are its immediate access to Rapid Spin and its high speed. Similarly to Golem, it can prove a little bit tricky to spin block, hence why it's so good. With the attacks mentioned, it's obviously a threat which is one of the things that enable it to spin in a way that Cloyster and Forretress (sometimes even Golem) cannot do because of how it forces switchouts.
My point is that if you give it Thunder, you aren't enabling it versus so many threats while still facing the chance of a miss while Cloyster Explodes or gets a toxic on you. Thunder threatens an OHKO on cloyster, but it's not that worth it in general since the Cloyster player is already going to try and be cautious. Furthermore, if Starmie gets poisoned, then as the Cloyster player, I may attempt to keep my spikes up and try and boom on Starmie after. If I lose Starmie and spikes are down that's worse.
I don't think Thunder is worth considering. Mentioning, perhaps, but in my experience, Starmie with Thunder leaves so much else to be desired against a plethora of other threats it would much rather be able to hit. There is one threat that a Thunder/bolt starmie can help threaten and that's Vaporeon.
The Vaporeon-Starmie matchup is a mixed bag but it generally favors Starmie 1v1 on the condition that it has Psychic or an electric move (light screen can be risky and Nightmare would mean that it has to expend 4+ Surfs to actually force it to Rest, something which becomes unviable once the Vaporeon reaches multiple growths). Vaporeon's only win condition is to some how muster the strength to withstand a barrage of Psychics while trying to setup and hope that Starmie doesn't get a Spdef drop. Starmies that lack the coverage only have the option of stalling out the Vaporeon of Surfs by spamming recover.
Starmie's main strengths are its immediate access to Rapid Spin and its high speed. Similarly to Golem, it can prove a little bit tricky to spin block, hence why it's so good. With the attacks mentioned, it's obviously a threat which is one of the things that enable it to spin in a way that Cloyster and Forretress (sometimes even Golem) cannot do because of how it forces switchouts.
My point is that if you give it Thunder, you aren't enabling it versus so many threats while still facing the chance of a miss while Cloyster Explodes or gets a toxic on you. Thunder threatens an OHKO on cloyster, but it's not that worth it in general since the Cloyster player is already going to try and be cautious. Furthermore, if Starmie gets poisoned, then as the Cloyster player, I may attempt to keep my spikes up and try and boom on Starmie after. If I lose Starmie and spikes are down that's worse.
Well thunder is certainly a bit of a gamble but so is hydro pump. Point made, however, starmie doesn't even need to make use of thunder if the paranoia of missing is too great. Magnet thunderbolt has a 1/3rd chance of OHKOing from full after spikes and lets be honest cloy is basically almost always carrying some kind of chip damage.
Magnet Starmie Thunderbolt vs. Cloyster: 236-278 (77.8 - 91.7%) -- 30.8% chance to OHKO after Spikes
With a moveset like this offensive starmie could really spread havoc:
item: leftovers/magnet
-psychic
-surf/hydro pump
-recover/ice beam
-thunder/thunderbolt
Magnet Starmie Thunderbolt vs. Skarmory: 190-224 (57 - 67.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Magnet Starmie Thunderbolt vs. Skarmory on a critical hit: 377-444 (113.2 - 133.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Magnet Starmie Thunderbolt vs. Starmie: 166-196 (51.3 - 60.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Spikes and Leftovers recovery
Magnet Starmie Thunderbolt vs. Starmie on a critical hit: 331-390 (102.4 - 120.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Magnet Starmie Thunderbolt vs. Vaporeon: 156-184 (33.6 - 39.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Spikes and Leftovers recovery
Magnet Starmie Thunderbolt vs. -1 Vaporeon: 236-278 (50.9 - 60%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Spikes and Leftovers recovery
Magnet Starmie Thunderbolt vs. -1 Vaporeon on a critical hit: 471-554 (101.7 - 119.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Magnet Starmie Thunder vs. Vaporeon: 195-230 (42.1 - 49.6%) -- 28.2% chance to 2HKO after Spikes and Leftovers recovery
Magnet Starmie Thunderbolt vs. Suicune: 137-162 (33.9 - 40.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Spikes and Leftovers recovery
Magnet Starmie Thunderbolt vs. -1 Suicune: 205-242 (50.8 - 60%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Spikes and Leftovers recovery
Magnet Starmie Thunderbolt vs. -1 Suicune on a critical hit: 410-482 (101.7 - 119.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Magnet Starmie Thunder vs. Suicune: 171-202 (42.4 - 50.1%) -- 36.2% chance to 2HKO after Spikes and Leftovers recovery
Magnet Starmie Thunderbolt vs. Lapras: 156-184 (33.6 - 39.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Spikes and Leftovers recovery
Magnet Starmie Thunder vs. Lapras: 195-230 (42.1 - 49.6%) -- 28.2% chance to 2HKO after Spikes and Leftovers recovery
Magnet Starmie Thunderbolt vs. Articuno: 127-150 (33.1 - 39.1%) -- 12.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Magnet Starmie Thunder vs. Articuno: 161-190 (42 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Starmie Ice Beam vs. Dragonite: 275-324 (71.4 - 84.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Starmie Ice Beam vs. Exeggutor: 178-210 (45.2 - 53.4%) -- 93.2% chance to 2HKO after Spikes and Leftovers recovery
Starmie Ice Beam vs. Zapdos: 148-174 (38.6 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
As for the lack of spin on mie you could easily pair it with forry that compresses spikes + spin onto one set or add golem as your "normal resist" as well as your spinner onto the team. Heal bell support from miltank or blissey would also help starmie out with status and pair up well with it anyways. The thing is that starmie is an underrated and underutilitizied offensive threat in the current meta because of how its proven it self to be so effective on stall teams as a spinner, but make no mistake, it can really pack a punch as well.
I'm normally very hesitant to post anything about a metagame that people have been playing for more than 20 years- either it's already been figured out and people were already using it (like a lot of sets I wanted to post here eg WaterGar or ThunderMie) or it's probably not as effective or consistent as one would think. These sets in particular should only be used if they fit the team perfectly and you can't make a change somewhere that allows you to use a standard set.
Has the potential to be a very scary late game threat, but also requires a lot of support (Thief, traded Explosions vs the stuff that would PP stall you).
For use on very offensive, low turn count teams that have strong spin prevention but will occasionally need to roadblock a CurseLax. I've seen some people use this already and I'll name them if they request it.
-Ice Beam (Pursuit or all out attacker)
Hit Egg, Golem/Rhydon, and Nido in one slot. Harder to deal with Gengar, though.
HP Ghost on Machamp or Forry (alongside Gengar) has become a bit underused, in my opinion. Hitting Gengar and Starmie with one slot is still pretty useful.
I'm normally very hesitant to post anything about a metagame that people have been playing for more than 20 years- either it's already been figured out and people were already using it (like a lot of sets I wanted to post here eg WaterGar or ThunderMie) or it's probably not as effective or consistent as one would think. These sets in particular should only be used if they fit the team perfectly and you can't make a change somewhere that allows you to use a standard set.
Has the potential to be a very scary late game threat, but also requires a lot of support (Thief, traded Explosions vs the stuff that would PP stall you).
This Jynx is indeed a thumper late game as the hidden 6th on a balls out momentum-based offensive squad. Often times it needs only one free sub to start pissing on the opp.
the only "draw back" is... the team housing this guy will require almost picture-perfect play to set both itself up and the field. Similar to a drumzard setup line but with less leeway.
i recommend this set to the player whose balls no scale can contain.
The trainer who gets a kick from putting on a well-orchestrated show knowing at any wrong turn it can all turn to chaos and embarrassment. Classic high risk high reward stint.
Recently I've been thinking about ways to pressure stall teams without needing Spikes. The answer inevitably loops back to some combination of Earthquake + special coverage. Nidoking is iconic in the roll, but can struggle to break Sleep Talk users. Explosion and Curse boosts are frequent ways to get past Sleep Talk mons which opens up some interesting mixed attacking options, namely Fire Blast Golem and Curse Flamethrower Tyranitar.
Both of these sets have advantageous matchups against common Skarmory + Starmie + rock stall builds and synergize decently well with Explosion Cloyster. As an added benefit, both are functional sets in an offensive matchup, though more limited than their standard sets.
The reasoning for this set is pretty simple: anything that takes an Explosion does not want to take Fire Blast or Earthquake. Once Fire Blast is revealed, Golem's defensive switch-ins are limited to Snorlax, Zapdos, Starmie, Suicune, and Umbreon. For this reason, it can serve as a decent bait Explosion with Lovely Kiss Nidoking.
More importantly, this set does not need Nidoking or another mixed attacker to succeed. It's main draw is how it can terrorize stall teams that are missing Starmie. If Cloyster sacrifices Spikes to explode on Starmie, a Fire Blast Golem team still has options to progress the game. Conversely, Golem can also explode on Starmie to help make Spikes stick.
This Golem set mostly belongs on offense and the fourth move option of Roar / Rapid Spin is based on rest of the team.
Discount Marowak with a little more mid-game utility due to Leftovers. The coverage is going to be excellent against any team, but excels against slower teams without a water type. Versus Starmie stalls, it will mostly rely on Cloyster/Forretress to trade before it can really harass the opponent. This set also prefers not to run into Suicune, but those teams rarely also run Starmie. Umbreon is also a subpar matchup and Tyranitar can be susceptible to status.
No STAB Rest Ttar is an unset, but fun to consider. It only fits on stall teams where trading Spikes for Starmie is a generally suboptimal play. Most of the time it is resigned to be a passive FireLax check. But if you want to hard counter stall, this set is for you.
Non-Roar Curse Tyranitar has a sad matchup against CurseLax, so it is preferable to run it alongside a phazing normal resist. In fact mixed Tar and standard Golem synergize well together as does mixed Golem + standard Tyranitar.
- Earthquake
- Curse
- Surf
- Rest
This set is pretty suspect, but thought it was worth including as an example that does not fit the role. Quagsire fits well only on specific Raikou-less defensive archetypes and this set loses to Curse Snorlax and is walled by Zapdos (ouch). It is mostly good outside these matchups (a tall order), but Belly Drum Quagsire has the same defensive role and easier time breaking stall even when considering Skarmory.
fails for a similar reason, a Curse + Rest set is worse than Quagsire on defensive teams. A Curse + Roar could snag wins against offense but lacks sustain vs. stall and Sleep Talk sets lack breaking power.
None of these sets are new. All are more niche options compared to standard sets. However, in this Spikes centric metagame, I believe constructing reliable win conditions on Spikes offense without relying on Spikes is an underutilized tactic.
Of course when using these sets you do not have to immediately resign yourself to playing without Spikes, but the option is always there if the opportunity arises. Just some food for thought.
Getting Spikes offense to break a stall without spikes is a good idea, but I wonder if simply being scummy and playing for crits and freezes is good enough. You could even run 2 flying-types naturally enough to have a drawing resource in case the casino is stacked in favor of the house.
I mean, just use SD Marowak. Being unwallable is literally its entire purpose. Or Drumlax, well any Drummer in general actually but yeah.
Machamp also reams most teams that rely on Starmie to wall it, which is most teams that use it, assuming you blew up your Cloyster to take it out. (Tenta too, though EQ Machamp will already beat it.) Vaporeon may also be a threat in that case. Three-attack Lax can power through everything short of Trap Missy or dumb shit dedicated Lax counters, like DCurl Shuckle. To a lesser extent, Curse Rhydon is more or less unwallable in similar fashion to Marowak but you have to choose between phaze-busting Roar or Rest to not get easily chipped and poisoned to death because it's not as immediately threatening; Rock Slide Steelix might be even safer but is slower yet and gets rocked by random Fire moves (mostly Lax coverage). Roar/Pursuit Tar can chip away at things and sometimes make for tough choices later about when to recover, Skarm or Raikou being your most likely break targets depending on your coverage attack (EQ or FB).
Getting Spikes offense to break a stall without spikes is a good idea, but I wonder if simply being scummy and playing for crits and freezes is good enough. You could even run 2 flying-types naturally enough to have a drawing resource in case the casino is stacked in favor of the house.
I'm curious about the overall stally nature of GSC OU. GSC OU has a bad reputation for being hyper-stally. Resttalk providing so much healing, combined with tanky meta mons like Snorlax, Zapdos, Raikou etc really adds to this. How do you all deal with it? Explosion is an option, but I've grown bored of that too. Any other options?
Or does a GSC enjoyer just have to suck it up and -enjoy- the stallyness?
A robust Spikes game paired with Nidoking and/or Thunder Zapdos is probably contemporary GSC's most common and consistent offensive plan. You generally also have 2 Explosions to work with, but you don't lean on them as hard (or have as many of them) as some of those older explosion teams do.
Baton Pass is also a curveball worth throwing every now and again. Agility and Growth variants are both valid.
You could also try the old Drumlax or Marowak anti-stall builds. They have the advantage of being nominally unwallable, but those aren't so consistent since they stratify offensive and defensive roles too much. Against a contemporary offense, your "turn" is often short-lived (the offensive roleplayers can't risk overextending and taking too many hits) and you play most of the game letting your opponent dictate play (the defensive roleplayers exert no pressure).
GSC is way less stally now than it ever has been. Just look at the contemporary popularity of old stall staples like Suicune, Miltank, and Umbreon: they're relics of the past. Granted, GSC is certainly more tanky than a lot of other gens, but stall implies teams cannot actually make progress toward killing each other and are playing to deplete PP instead of HP. While that certainly happens in GSC, it's a lot less common than one might think, and certainly not how the overwhelming majority of games go.
GSC isn't even as stally as the bullshit like Regenerator stuff in new gens. It just has that reputation because everything having all max stats means everything can take a hit or two, whereas newer gens are an OHKO fests between offensive mons having no defensive EVs and the movepool containing grossly overpowered attacks like Overheat variants and tons of 120 base power moves with no meaningful drawbacks. GSC teams are inherently somewhat balanced by the limitations of the game, as even aggressive mons can take 1-2 hits and "stall" teams usually try to set up 1-2 heavy hitters due to the lack of passive damage sources.
GSC isn't even as stally as the bullshit like Regenerator stuff in new gens. It just has that reputation because everything having all max stats means everything can take a hit or two, whereas newer gens are an OHKO fests between offensive mons having no defensive EVs and the movepool containing grossly overpowered attacks like Overheat variants and tons of 120 base power moves with no meaningful drawbacks. GSC teams are inherently somewhat balanced by the limitations of the game, as even aggressive mons can take 1-2 hits and "stall" teams usually try to set up 1-2 heavy hitters due to the lack of passive damage sources.
As a relatively "newer" player when compared to the vets out there (so my opinion matters less), I do get the sensation that GSC's bad rep is partly owed to its past meta, where miltank stalls and umbreon stalls and suicune were more common and considered less "killable", thus having many games where opponents would struggle to find outs against these defensive checks. Current OU feels so boxed in that at times troubling having to cope with all the offence and having little wriggle room for building a good stall team.
If Offence teams have to factor in that choosing the metadefining Curse Eq lax means being more susceptible to Zapdos, the same goes for Stall and your already going to be juggling between switch ins for Nidoking and Gengar.
Howdy all, the TrapPass thread in PR caught my eye and I considered commenting, but my opinion is way too outdated to be of much worth. I was wondering what people's thoughts are on trap moves vs baton pass. Like if you were to label one or the other as problematic, which would it be?
I've long regarded trapping moves as being of greater priority than baton pass, since the latter I would consider manageable even in favourable matchups, while it struggles mightily in bad matchups (that was my experience, which is a couple years outdated). Meanwhile trapping moves I would consider cancerous, not only due to TrapPass, but also PerishTrap, which is literally just RNG fishing that can be supported via paralysis. Yet of the posts that don't favour some bs complex ban, most seem to focus on bp. Is there any reason for that?
My initial impression is to suggest bias due to bp always being a hot topic, and I think it would be a shame if that lead to bp being banned rather than something I think is actually toxic. However that's a very rash (and likely wrong) assumption, and Zokuru alluded to shifts in the meta which is the kind of thing that would invalidate my opinion. So yeah, is bp a (potential) problem outside of TrapPass? And is there much consideration given to trapping moves as the other side of the coin in that debate?
EW more or less comprehensively elucidated both the actual problem, potential solutions, and my own position: The only questionably bullshit thing is Umbreon utilizing one of its myriad of hax moves at its disposal to cheese a TrapPass. Misdreavus lacks the bulk and recovery to consistently do more than trade at best, and Smeargle is a very risky dead weight on its own. I do find it hilarious that so many people seem to be caught up on man it's so bullshit that Umbreon could possibly Toxic my phazer and man it's so bullshit that Smeargle could possibly sleep my phazer (which isn't even that important if the Smeargle isn't trapping which it isn't if it has Spore). That's like complaining that Tyranitar might Fire Blast your Forretress, or it might Surf your Golem, or it might die to Gengar's Destiny Bond because by golly Gengar is supposed to have Explosion wtf is this having moveset versatility BS amirite?
I wish people would stop trying to ban shit just because it seems unpleasant on paper regardless of its actual viability. See also: The recent (re?)banning of Swagger in Gen 4. Sub + Swagger Flygon is a premier threat, really? Because it might beat some of its traditional checks? What about the other stuff it doesn't beat anymore because it hits like a slow, wet noodle (no Choice item) with no type coverage (because carrying Sub + Swagger introduces major four-moveslot syndrome)? Oh, wait, it's not even a legitimate, actual threat that is dominating the metagame but untested theory?
Brief talk about Spinners specifically Starmie and Tentacruel. What do they do? Do they do things? I don't know. LET'S FIND OUT.
Can't teach an old Star new tricks - Starmie
I already spoke about the potential for Starmie on offensive teams using a specific set. While some of you may have seen or used Sub Nightmare Starmie on a stall team (the combination of which I simply refer to as Shit-Mie), I am simply not impressed and have yet to see a build where the offensive value it brings isn't a huge opportunity cost.
So lets talk about what makes it great on defensive teams. (To avoid redundancy I won't be wasting too much time on its ability to check offensive staples like I already did)
At a first glance the first set seems almost identical to the Nightmare moveset, yet the two moves couldn't be further apart. Rapid Spin is the move that helped Starmie find its niche against all the other Water types, all those years ago. Psychic was a common pick and is a no brainer as to why it's good, hurting a great deal of different Pokemon and threatening them with more certainty than Surf might do (eg. against Curse Machamp and Gengar). What Psychic is also very good at is checking Cloyster and not allowing it to come in safely as it fairly cleanly 2HKO's it. The only issue is that with an optimized play, offensive teams would opt for preserving their Spikes user as long as possible and aim to go for a Toxic on the switch in. This is a weighted decision to essentially cripple Starmie at the cost of having to attempt setting up Spikes a second time (a statused Starmie can no longer spam recover against Double Edge Snorlax to buy time).
Substitute helps not only mitigate the risks of status (now a Cloyster or Forry would have to go for a hail mary Toxic on a switch in and risk losing a lot of momentum for nothing), but it basically guarantees Starmie is going to find an opportunity to get value on the next turn.
With a Sub up, Cloyster and Forretress can't do anything besides exploding and if they go to Gengar or Misdreavus to attempt to block a Rapid Spin, they will take a lot of damage, even without the Psychic.
Against Zapdos, Starmie has the speed and utility to force it into using up its Thunder PP and if it ever misses the Substitute, then Zapdos basically let the Starmie user Spin the Spikes away for free.
This Starmie isn't without its own issues. As a defensive pokemon it can tend to be overloaded against mixed attackers or less common movesets like Crunch Ttar, and it can be a very delectable Explosion target to open up for threatening sweepers and it also lets Surf Growth Vaporeon setup on it without much hesitation.
The flagship killer of stall - Tentacruel
Surf
Toxic
Rapid Spin
Protect
If you have been playing GSC OU seriously in the past 2 or 3 years then you've certainly heard of the person who created this moveset, Zokuru (or you have been living under a rock). He probably has a whole novel kept on the bookshelf of his room about how he farmed players using a stall team with this Pokemon.
I think, coming from my personal experience as one who was familiar with the threatening albeit somewhat predictable Druid Cruel set of Swords Dance Substitute Sludge Bomb and Hydro Pump, I never thought that there was any more room for innovation with this Pokemon. But I am happy to say that I was proven quite wrong.
So what makes this so good? Tentacruel is slightly less bulkier physically than Starmie but is bulkier on the special side, making it one of 3 actually viable Water types that can take a super effective Thunder from the likes of Zapdos or Raikou. That also means that in a pinch, it can attempt to 1v1 Pokemon like Gengar with sufficient ease.
Its real selling point over Starmie is its Toxic immunity, an absolute godsend for stall as some teams really rely on crippling the opposing spinner just to be able to make progress. It's not just good vs offense either, because that toxic immunity makes it confident in coming in and rapid spinning on the majority of what many stall teams are comprised of: the Spiker/spinner, Skarmory, Suicune, Blissey, Umbreon etc.. As the offensive metagame began to be more and more oriented towards positional advantage and spikes setting, the already passive Suicune found itself struggling to justify its position on stall teams, as it didn't have the toolset to make up for its exploitability.
Whereas Starmie needs Substitute to make sure the Cloy or Forry doesn't beat it, Tentacruel just stands there menacingly.
Tentacruel can use Toxic on Cloyster, causing it to be on a timer and lose many opportunities to actually cement the spikes. Toxic also works very well against Misdreavus. With Surf it's able to chip Cloyster, Forretress, and Gengar while also being able to OHKO Golem. In the even of a stall on stall matchup where the opponent has a Psychic Starmie, it still would be nothing to scoff at because of how Toxic is a sufficient deterrent for the opposing Starmie coming in.
One seemingly glaring weakness at a first glance would be that Tentacruel has no actual recovery move, but Protect is where a stall scholar would prove you wrong. Seeing as it comes in willy-nilly on Cloyster and the whole spikes and spin metagame minus Starmie without sustaining much damage, it has many opportunities to gain back its HP through passive recovery of Leftovers by spamming Protect. And if the opponent switches out from the spiker as you click Protect, that simply means you get a second opportunity to click Protect without fail and gain even more HP back. Protect fits Tentacruel much better than Substitute and in spite of fewer PP (I think), it still is pretty nice to waste some precious Thunder PP from Zapdos. Tentacruel, unlike Starmie, only speed ties with Zapdos, so Substitute wouldn't even be good in the first place.
Brief talk about Spinners specifically Starmie and Tentacruel. What do they do? Do they do things? I don't know. LET'S FIND OUT.
Can't teach an old Star new tricks - Starmie
I already spoke about the potential for Starmie on offensive teams using a specific set. While some of you may have seen or used Sub Nightmare Starmie on a stall team (the combination of which I simply refer to as Shit-Mie), I am simply not impressed and have yet to see a build where the offensive value it brings isn't a huge opportunity cost.
So lets talk about what makes it great on defensive teams. (To avoid redundancy I won't be wasting too much time on its ability to check offensive staples like I already did)
At a first glance the first set seems almost identical to the Nightmare moveset, yet the two moves couldn't be further apart. Rapid Spin is the move that helped Starmie find its niche against all the other Water types, all those years ago. Psychic was a common pick and is a no brainer as to why it's good, hurting a great deal of different Pokemon and threatening them with more certainty than Surf might do (eg. against Curse Machamp and Gengar). What Psychic is also very good at is checking Cloyster and not allowing it to come in safely as it fairly cleanly 2HKO's it. The only issue is that with an optimized play, offensive teams would opt for preserving their Spikes user as long as possible and aim to go for a Toxic on the switch in. This is a weighted decision to essentially cripple Starmie at the cost of having to attempt setting up Spikes a second time (a statused Starmie can no longer spam recover against Double Edge Snorlax to buy time).
Substitute helps not only mitigate the risks of status (now a Cloyster or Forry would have to go for a hail mary Toxic on a switch in and risk losing a lot of momentum for nothing), but it basically guarantees Starmie is going to find an opportunity to get value on the next turn.
With a Sub up, Cloyster and Forretress can't do anything besides exploding and if they go to Gengar or Misdreavus to attempt to block a Rapid Spin, they will take a lot of damage, even without the Psychic.
Against Zapdos, Starmie has the speed and utility to force it into using up its Thunder PP and if it ever misses the Substitute, then Zapdos basically let the Starmie user Spin the Spikes away for free.
This Starmie isn't without its own issues. As a defensive pokemon it can tend to be overloaded against mixed attackers or less common movesets like Crunch Ttar, and it can be a very delectable Explosion target to open up for threatening sweepers and it also lets Surf Growth Vaporeon setup on it without much hesitation.
The flagship killer of stall - Tentacruel
Surf
Toxic
Rapid Spin
Protect
If you have been playing GSC OU seriously in the past 2 or 3 years then you've certainly heard of the person who created this moveset, Zokuru (or you have been living under a rock). He probably has a whole novel kept on the bookshelf of his room about how he farmed players using a stall team with this Pokemon.
I think, coming from my personal experience as one who was familiar with the threatening albeit somewhat predictable Druid Cruel set of Swords Dance Substitute Sludge Bomb and Hydro Pump, I never thought that there was any more room for innovation with this Pokemon. But I am happy to say that I was proven quite wrong.
So what makes this so good? Tentacruel is slightly less bulkier physically than Starmie but is bulkier on the special side, making it one of 3 actually viable Water types that can take a super effective Thunder from the likes of Zapdos or Raikou. That also means that in a pinch, it can attempt to 1v1 Pokemon like Gengar with sufficient ease.
Its real selling point over Starmie is its Toxic immunity, an absolute godsend for stall as some teams really rely on crippling the opposing spinner just to be able to make progress. It's not just good vs offense either, because that toxic immunity makes it confident in coming in and rapid spinning on the majority of what many stall teams are comprised of: the Spiker/spinner, Skarmory, Suicune, Blissey, Umbreon etc.. As the offensive metagame began to be more and more oriented towards positional advantage and spikes setting, the already passive Suicune found itself struggling to justify its position on stall teams, as it didn't have the toolset to make up for its exploitability.
Whereas Starmie needs Substitute to make sure the Cloy or Forry doesn't beat it, Tentacruel just stands there menacingly.View attachment 458100
Tentacruel can use Toxic on Cloyster, causing it to be on a timer and lose many opportunities to actually cement the spikes. Toxic also works very well against Misdreavus. With Surf it's able to chip Cloyster, Forretress, and Gengar while also being able to OHKO Golem. In the even of a stall on stall matchup where the opponent has a Psychic Starmie, it still would be nothing to scoff at because of how Toxic is a sufficient deterrent for the opposing Starmie coming in.
One seemingly glaring weakness at a first glance would be that Tentacruel has no actual recovery move, but Protect is where a stall scholar would prove you wrong. Seeing as it comes in willy-nilly on Cloyster and the whole spikes and spin metagame minus Starmie without sustaining much damage, it has many opportunities to gain back its HP through passive recovery of Leftovers by spamming Protect. And if the opponent switches out from the spiker as you click Protect, that simply means you get a second opportunity to click Protect without fail and gain even more HP back. Protect fits Tentacruel much better than Substitute and in spite of fewer PP (I think), it still is pretty nice to waste some precious Thunder PP from Zapdos. Tentacruel, unlike Starmie, only speed ties with Zapdos, so Substitute wouldn't even be good in the first place.
Something I want to add on about starmie
While it may seem odd and frankly bad, but surf/psychic + thunder wave + substitute + rapid spin can be an insanely effective set under the right conditions
You come in on something like cloyster, sun up, and thunder wave whatever is in front of you, and then switch out or stay in and spin depending on if the opposing Pokémon breaks your sub
The easiest way to see this set work it’s magic is against a zapdos switching in for cloyster
It has to hit thunder, a 70% accurate move, against starmie while paralyzed, multiple times in a row. This mie set easily creates a lot of free turns and is en excellent paralysis spreader, as well as (imo) the only viable way you can get away with no surf (see: Paralysis + Marowak sample team)
It’s definitely more shaky than recover mie due to the lack of said recover, but I believe that with the right teammates and a little bit of luck, this starmie set can be absolutely devilish
Something I want to add on about starmie
While it may seem odd and frankly bad, but surf/psychic + thunder wave + substitute + rapid spin can be an insanely effective set under the right conditions
You come in on something like cloyster, sun up, and thunder wave whatever is in front of you, and then switch out or stay in and spin depending on if the opposing Pokémon breaks your sub
The easiest way to see this set work it’s magic is against a zapdos switching in for cloyster
It has to hit thunder, a 70% accurate move, against starmie while paralyzed, multiple times in a row. This mie set easily creates a lot of free turns and is en excellent paralysis spreader, as well as (imo) the only viable way you can get away with no surf (see: Paralysis + Marowak sample team)
It’s definitely more shaky than recover mie due to the lack of said recover, but I believe that with the right teammates and a little bit of luck, this starmie set can be absolutely devilish
I never said it was bad. My point was to talk about Starmie in function of Tentacruel. Twave Spin Surf can work. I just prefer having Recover so I can be unpunished for coming in a Machamp that switches out at the sight of Starmie.
I never said it was bad. My point was to talk about Starmie in function of Tentacruel. Twave Spin Surf can work. I just prefer having Recover so I can be unpunished for coming in a Machamp that switches out at the sight of Starmie.
+ 
that ends ups Nido weak (Skarm -> thunder and Kou -> earthquake)
+ 
stall, this set is for you.
fails for a similar reason, a Curse + Rest set is worse than Quagsire on defensive teams. A Curse + Roar could snag wins against offense but lacks sustain vs. stall and Sleep Talk sets lack breaking power.
Sub + Swagger Flygon is a premier threat, really? Because it might beat some of its traditional checks? What about the other stuff it doesn't beat anymore because it hits like a slow, wet noodle (no Choice item) with no type coverage (because carrying Sub + Swagger introduces major four-moveslot syndrome)? Oh, wait, it's not even a legitimate, actual threat that is dominating the metagame but untested theory? 
