Gliscor (SubPass)

[Thundur]

Gliscor

[SET]
name: SubPass
move 1: Substitute
move 2: Baton Pass
move 3: Earthquake
move 4: Toxic / Taunt / Facade
item: Toxic Orb
ability: Poison Heal
nature: Impish
evs: 248 HP / 24 Def / 236 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>While many other Gliscor sets aim to sweep or stall, this set focuses on keeping momentum while still being able to wall common threats. The combination of Substitute and Baton Pass allows Gliscor to give a teammate a free switch-in, and potentially an intact Substitute as well. As this set has significant surprise factor, especially with the rise in popularity of Toxic Stall Gliscor, your opponent will more often than not attempt to hit Gliscor with a super effective move. Gliscor can then Baton Pass to a Pokemon that resists the predicted move, and likely preserve the Substitute. This works especially well with Pokemon that utilize boosting moves, as they will always appreciate a free turn to set up behind a Substitute.</p>

<p>There are many moves that are viable in the fourth slot. Toxic is great for crippling bulky Water-types, while Taunt is a solid option to shut down Steel-type walls such as Ferrothorn, Skarmory, and Forretress, and also prevents phazers from thwarting the Baton Pass strategy. Finally, Facade is a good option to hit Levitate users, such as Rotom-W, for solid damage.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>236 Speed EVs enable Gliscor to outspeed neutral-natured Lucario, all Heatran bar Choice Scarf variants, most other Gliscor, and Jolly Mamoswine. 248 HP EVs ensure that Gliscor takes minimal damage from Stealth Rock, while the remaining EVs are dumped into Defense and an Impish nature is chosen to let Gliscor sponge hits even more effectively. An alternative spread of 248 HP / 68 Def / 192 Spe with a Jolly nature can be used to outspeed all Rotom, as well as neutral-natured base 100 Speed Pokemon, such as Celebi and Jirachi. As far as alternative move options go, Protect, boosting moves such as Swords Dance and Rock Polish, and Ice Fang can all work well in the fourth slot. Protect lets Gliscor pivot around Choice users, boosting moves can make the recipient an even greater threat, while Ice Fang can deal with threats such as Salamence and Dragonite that lack Roost if they pose a threat to your team.</p>

<p>Good Baton Pass recipients include Pokemon that resist Water- and Ice-type attacks—which Gliscor tends to attract—as their resistances allow the Substitute to stay intact. Frail Pokemon that cannot take a hit, such as Darmanitan, as well as setup sweepers that appreciate the free turn, also work. As this set attracts Rotom-W, Ferrothorn is a good recipient as it can maintain the Substitute and use it as a ticket to set up hazards. If Gliscor is not running Ice Fang, Ferrothorn can also switch in on Landorus's Hidden Power Ice, which will again give Ferrothorn a free opportunity to set up hazards.</p>

<p>Powerful Water- and Ice-type attacks will decimate Gliscor if it's not behind a Substitute. Skarmory can use Whirlwind to phaze the recipient, and there is nothing Gliscor can do to it outside of Taunt. Finally, Perish Song users such as Politoed can prevent Gliscor's Substitute recipients from staying in for more than a few turns; however, Politoed needs to be wary of Toxic. Electric-types can hit both Skarmory and Water-types like Politoed for super effective damage. Rotom-W works well thanks to its ability to take Water- and Ice-type attacks as well.</p>

 

[JellyOs]

You say it's not expected and that's the main reason it should be on site, but what happens hen it's n site and people start to expect it? It seems kinda slow to run a set like this, and you'll most likely lose your Sub before your pass. I mean, wouldn't it be better to Baton Pass on the turn the opponent switches so you won't lose 25% of your HP? I know Jolteon runs an awesome SubPass set, but that's only because it's past. Honestly, I feel like you should just turn this into a Baton Pass set, seeing as how Gliscor lacks one.

 

[Thundur]

You say it's not expected and that's the main reason it should be on site, but what happens hen it's n site and people start to expect it? It seems kinda slow to run a set like this, and you'll most likely lose your Sub before your pass. I mean, wouldn't it be better to Baton Pass on the turn the opponent switches so you won't lose 25% of your HP? I know Jolteon runs an awesome SubPass set, but that's only because it's past. Honestly, I feel like you should just turn this into a Baton Pass set, seeing as how Gliscor lacks one.

Being not expected helps, but I wouldn't call it the main reason. I have tested this set, and it was effective without the surprise factor as well. I mentioned a faster spread, which out speeds a good bit of Pokemon. And even if a faster Pokemon breaks Gliscor's Sub, the Pokemon you Baton Pass do still does not have to switch into a hit. Making Subs is not too much of a problem with Poison Heal, either.

 

[Harsha]

I think you need to include Swords Dance for this thing to work well. Otherwise, you may not even be able to pass the Sub when the opponent attacks.

 

[Thundur]

I think you need to include Swords Dance for this thing to work well. Otherwise, you may not even be able to pass the Sub when the opponent attacks.

The idea of this set was to be able to bring Pokemon in safely. Having a Sub intact when you Baton Pass it is always nice, but that wasn't really the focus of this set.

 

[JellyOs]

Why not make this a full blown Baton Pass set? Something like this:
name: Baton Pass
move 1: Baton Pass
move 2: Swords Dance / Agility
move 3: Substitute
move 4: Earthquake
item: Toxic Orb
ability: Poison Heal
nature: Impish
evs: 252 HP / 40 Def / 216 Spe

Also, why not run more speed? You're base 95, why not take advantage of that? Try 252+ Spe and take the rest out of defense. I don't see what the 40 Def is doing for you if your main focus is giving out Subs.

 

[Lee]

I like this set and I wouldn't want to overcomplicate it with Swords Dances and Rock Polishes that would hamper his ability to carry out his normal physical wall duties. I imagine this as a physical wall first and foremost and a Baton Passer second if the opportunity presents itself.

Gliscor has quite a specific set of weaknesses that can allow a semi-bulky recipient to keep the Sub intact, or even just facilitate a free switch for a glass cannon like Darmanitan etc. the fact that Gliscor commonly runs Sub/Protect/Toxic/EQ is just icing on the cake. good team support Pokemon.

 

[JellyOs]

I like this set and I wouldn't want to overcomplicate it with Swords Dances and Rock Polishes that would hamper his ability to carry out his normal physical wall duties. I imagine this as a physical wall first and foremost and a Baton Passer second if the opportunity presents itself.

Gliscor has quite a specific set of weaknesses that can allow a semi-bulky recipient to keep the Sub intact, or even just facilitate a free switch for a glass cannon like Darmanitan etc. the fact that Gliscor commonly runs Sub/Protect/Toxic/EQ is just icing on the cake. good team support Pokemon.

If it's a physical wall first and foremost why not just add this to the standard defensive set in AC? I think that Gliscor could run a great Baton Pass set, but if it's walling then why run Ice Fang over Toxic? If it's supposed to run like a wall I'd change the OP to reflect that, because right now it seems like all it does is sub then pass.

 

[Lee]

Specialised BP Gliscor tends to run Taunt and sometimes even more than one boosting move, leaving it overspecialised and ineffective at walling. This set is much more versatile - by having both EQ and Ice Fang you can still counter the things Gliscor needs to and SubPass gives you an option to maintain momentum on obvious switches in a similar manner to U-turn (which tbh encompasses most of the benefits of this set in a single moveslot but SubPass can be far more dangerous).

If you think it's a good idea to bastardise this into the DP BP Gliscor (something like SD/RP/Taunt/BP) then you obviously don't understand the thinking behind this set.

 

[JellyOs]

@Lee, I definitely see your point after a few battles with this. I like the set, but the OP needs to be expanded upon greatly, reflecting what you said.

 

[Thundur]

@JellyOs: Lee pretty much summed up the set, and got the point I was trying to across.

I buffed up the OP a little bit by adding how it is not expected do to the rise in usage of Sub Toxic stall Gliscor. I also mentioned how this set still maintains the ability to wall common threats. You said "expanded upon greatly", although I do not see much more to add after I added those two pieces of information, based on what Lee said.

EDIT: I also emphasized how this set works well with frail Pokemon that do not want to take a hit on the switch in.

 

[JellyOs]

I imagine this as a physical wall first and foremost and a Baton Passer second if the opportunity presents itself.

This is what needs to be made much more obvious. It has strengths, so use them and differentiate it from Pokemon who can also run SubPass.

 

[Thundur]

This is what needs to be made much more obvious. It has strengths, so use them and differentiate it from Pokemon who can also run SubPass.

I made a bullet that talked about that (the last bullet in the first section). If this gets past QC, I will make sure that is made clear in the writing.

 

[Harsha]

mmkay, this makes more sense, and using Substitute to scout the switch-in is cool since you can simply Baton Pass to get momentum. Yeah, I would say focus less on Baton Pass and more on the walling aspect, and state that Baton Pass is your means of nabbing momentum. Other than that, seems like a cool set.

 

[Ojama]

I remember Earthworm using this set for the wcup finals against phil. This set is really interessting and deserves to be on site. Now i'm not sure that you need IFang. Protect is another option you can add, cause you could predict the opponent move and baton pass to the appropriate pokemon. In addition, if its a choice user, that would be much better, if you see what i mean.
Since Skarmory is a problem for this set, considering taunt over ifang on the last slot is another good idea.
Another good baton pass receiver is celebi, which is able to use batonpass too for another baton pass receiver. Ferrothorn is also a great teammate cause it can set up spikes + sr and gliscor attracts rotom, landorus etc and they cant break the sub if the baton pass receiver is ferrothorn.
Good job.

 

[Thundur]

I remember Earthworm using this set for the wcup finals against phil. This set is really interessting and deserves to be on site. Now i'm not sure that you need IFang. Protect is another option you can add, cause you could predict the opponent move and baton pass to the appropriate pokemon. In addition, if its a choice user, that would be much better, if you see what i mean.
Since Skarmory is a problem for this set, considering taunt over ifang on the last slot is another good idea.
Another good baton pass receiver is celebi, which is able to use batonpass too for another baton pass receiver. Ferrothorn is also a great teammate cause it can set up spikes + sr and gliscor attracts rotom, landorus etc and they cant break the sub if the baton pass receiver is ferrothorn.
Good job.

Thanks! Some cool suggestions here. Loosing Ice Fang hurts a bit when facing Salamence, etc., but you can always Baton Pass to another Pokemon to deal with Salamence. I'll make sure I make a mention of some of these suggestions.

 

[peng]

I've been using this set quite a lot recently, and I can definitely attest to its viability. Unfortunately sets like this become much less effective once they go on-site but I'll give some feedback anyway since I'm pretty familiar with the set.

I'd definitely like to see the EV spread pushed to 248 HP / 20 Def / 236 Spd; 248 HP means you'll take less Stealth Rock damage on the switch-in, and as far I know it doesn't noticeably change your Poison heal recovery. 236 Spd allows Gliscor to hit 285 Speed, meaning it outspeeds Jolly Mamoswine. This is important as it means you can pass away your sub to something like Heatran / Mamoswine / Jirachi to take the Icicle Spear rather than losing your sub and getting KOd by the Icicle Spear. Theres pretty much no noticeable difference in bulk between 40 Def and 20 def anyway, so I don't see any reason not to go 236 Spd.

 

[Thundur]

I've been using this set quite a lot recently, and I can definitely attest to its viability. Unfortunately sets like this become much less effective once they go on-site but I'll give some feedback anyway since I'm pretty familiar with the set.

I'd definitely like to see the EV spread pushed to 248 HP / 20 Def / 236 Spd; 248 HP means you'll take less Stealth Rock damage on the switch-in, and as far I know it doesn't noticeably change your Poison heal recovery. 236 Spd allows Gliscor to hit 285 Speed, meaning it outspeeds Jolly Mamoswine. This is important as it means you can pass away your sub to something like Heatran / Mamoswine / Jirachi to take the Icicle Spear rather than losing your sub and getting KOd by the Icicle Spear. Theres pretty much no noticeable difference in bulk between 40 Def and 20 def anyway, so I don't see any reason not to go 236 Spd.

I gave you most of my thoughts on Skype, definitely a great idea. I'll put it in.

 

[doughboy]

Shortest QC in History :*(

Anyway I would take into strong consideration Taunt as a slash. Skarmory gets attracted to this set like wildfire and can easily Whirlwind you out once it figures out what is going or Whirlwind you out anyway if it already got its Spikes up. Feel free to use the teammates/points from my analysis.

 

[Jimera0]

At first I was sceptical and thought "Why can't you just add in a blurb on the standard defensive set about BPing subs and call it a day?" but then I realized how important the extra speed and the explanation of how to use it would be, and now I think this a good idea. Seriously, I can think of SO many Pokemon that would benefit from the Substitute that this Gliscor would pass, and even if the sub DOES get broken; who cares if you just got in your counter scot free? Pokemon like Landorus, Terrakion, Lucario and so on could all use that sub to deadly effect, getting a free turn to boost. Then there are frail but deadly sweepers like Alakazam, Jolteon and Infernape that would just appreciate the free switch in, let alone a free sub.

And on top of all that, it's still a really damn good wall after the fact. Sure, it might not wall everything some of the other sets can, but it can still function very well in its role of a utility counter. Really, this is a brilliant idea that deserves to be on site.

As others have recommended, taunt should definitely be mentioned on there to prevent phazing attempts, and also just as a general utility move. A fast taunt is never a bad thing to have on your team.

 

[Thundur]

At first I was sceptical and thought "Why can't you just add in a blurb on the standard defensive set about BPing subs and call it a day?" but then I realized how important the extra speed and the explanation of how to use it would be, and now I think this a good idea. Seriously, I can think of SO many Pokemon that would benefit from the Substitute that this Gliscor would pass, and even if the sub DOES get broken; who cares if you just got in your counter scot free? Pokemon like Landorus, Terrakion, Lucario and so on could all use that sub to deadly effect, getting a free turn to boost. Then there are frail but deadly sweepers like Alakazam, Jolteon and Infernape that would just appreciate the free switch in, let alone a free sub.

And on top of all that, it's still a really damn good wall after the fact. Sure, it might not wall everything some of the other sets can, but it can still function very well in its role of a utility counter. Really, this is a brilliant idea that deserves to be on site.

As others have recommended, taunt should definitely be mentioned on there to prevent phazing attempts, and also just as a general utility move. A fast taunt is never a bad thing to have on your team.

I did add Taunt in the AC section, however, I have not decided to put it as a slash yet. I still need to test it.

 

[Thundur]

I tested Taunt a bit more. It was extremely helpful to shut down Skarmory, Forretress, Ferrothorn, etc. and to prevent phazers from phazing out Gliscor or the Pokemon you Baton Pass too. I gave it a slash.

 

[jc104]

I also don't really approve of ice fang on this set. One of the problems with standard Gliscor is that it's really weak. This set allows Gliscor to do something productive, allowing something else to do the damage instead. Ice Fang is just a huge waste of space. It doesn't do enough damage to Dragonite if it has Roost, for starters. Most things are hit harder by Facade. So basically, the attack is just for Landorus and non-Roost Dragonite, perhaps other Gliscor, but this set laughs at them anyway. Not worth it imo.

Facade, Toxic, Protect and Taunt are all better options.

 

[Thundur]

I also don't really approve of ice fang on this set. One of the problems with standard Gliscor is that it's really weak. This set allows Gliscor to do something productive, allowing something else to do the damage instead. Ice Fang is just a huge waste of space. It doesn't do enough damage to Dragonite if it has Roost, for starters. Most things are hit harder by Facade. So basically, the attack is just for Landorus and non-Roost Dragonite, perhaps other Gliscor, but this set laughs at them anyway. Not worth it imo.

Facade, Toxic, Protect and Taunt are all better options.

Thanks for the feedback! Salamence (Choice Scarf and DD) was one of the main reasons I had Ice Fang here. Looking at it again, I primarily used Ice Fang to patch up a Mence weakness I had on the team I used this set on, and that does not apply to all teams, which was closed-minded of me. I will change up the slashes. I still believe Ice Fang should still get a mention in some way, however, as it can help teams get by some large threats, although it is pretty situational.

EDIT: Ready for QC.

 

[Lucario_Guy]

Your EV spread is missing 16 points. It should be:

248 HP / 24 Def / 236 Spe