Gliscor (Choice Scarf)

danmantincan

danmantincan

OK, this is my first attempt to post a set in QC and I started using it shortly after the ban of Salamence, where I predicted that people would try and replace Salamence with other Dragon Dancers, and Scarf 100s would drop in use.
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http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/gliscor

[SET]
name: Choice Scarf
move 1: Earthquake
move 2: Stone Edge
move 3: U-Turn
move 4: Night Slash/Thunder Fang/Ice Fang
item: Choice Scarf
nature: Adamant
evs: 4 HP / 252 Attack / 252 Speed
ability: Hyper Cutter

Why this set deserves:
-Able to outspeed a number of Speed boosting threats, including DD Dragonite, Gyarados, Kingdra and Tyranitar, as well as outspeed +2 Modest Empoleon.
-Outspeeds all non-scarfed Pokemon (except for Ninjask).
-Immunities to Ground and Electric moves and solid Defense, gives Gliscor many opportunities to switch in.
-Can scout your opponents team for levitators/flyers.
-No other set like this on-site.

Additional Comments:
-Thunder/Ice Fang can be used to revenge Gyarados and Dragonite after Stealth Rock.
-Jolly Nature can be used to outspeed Scarf Rotom-A, but the drop in power could cost you certain KOs.

Teammates and Counters:
-Hippowdon and bulky waters can wall you all day long, while healing any damage taken.
-252/252 Bold Blissey can heal the damage she takes with Softboiled/Wish+Protect, while you waste your PP.
-Bulky flyers/levitaters such as Skarmory, Rotom-A and Zapdos can cause some trouble.

-Iron Ball Trick Metagross can switch into Ice attacks, while luring the previously mentioned bulky flyers/levitaters and grounding them, allowing you to hit them with Earthquake, and can explode on bulky waters.
-Sandstorm support is helpful by negating Leftovers recovery on defensive Pokemon, but not necessary.
-Specially based MixApe can deal with Hippowdon, Blissey and Skarmory (and weaken bulky waters).
-Shaymin can switch into STAB Surfs from bulky waters and hit them with Seed Flare, though must watch out for any Ice attacks aimed at Gliscor.
-Stealth Rock.
 
While this looks decent, there are a number of major issues.

1: Earthquake sucks sucks SUCKS to be locked into as your only STAB. Flygon gets away with it because it has Outrage to fall back on.

2: Scarfed Fangs SUCK to be locked into, because when you factor in piss poor damage and an underwhelming 95 base Attack without a boosting nature, you don't even need to resist the attack to be able to set up on it as much as you want.

This gets a no from me, simply because it doesn't have the speed (the difference between 100 and 95 is huge), power (really, Gliscor has to fall back on Fangs, which may not even do the damage they need to?, or awesome resistances (Fighting resistance is kinda cool but in every other way it's outclassed by Flygon, which at least has a Fire resistance to fall back on, as well as neutrality to Water) that it needs to succeed. Using any attack other than U-turn on a Scarf Gliscor is a massive, massive liability, even moreso than using other choiced attacks.
 
Erodent posted this a while back and it got rejected for being to similar. I'll try to find the thread for you.
 
Seven Deadly Sins said:
While this looks decent, there are a number of major issues.

1: Earthquake sucks sucks SUCKS to be locked into as your only STAB. Flygon gets away with it because it has Outrage to fall back on.

2: Scarfed Fangs SUCK to be locked into, because when you factor in piss poor damage and an underwhelming 95 base Attack without a boosting nature, you don't even need to resist the attack to be able to set up on it as much as you want.
Click to expand...

The idea isn't to come in and just spam Earthquake on your opponent, this set obviously requires prediction, like any other Choiced set. You don't bring CS Tyranitar into Blissey and automatically select Superpower, you have to predict whether your opponent is going to switch to a Ghost/Psychic, or stay in.

When I first did calculations comparing the difference between (Adamant Gliscor) Fang Vs. (Jolly Flygon) Punch, the difference was negligible in most cases (~3% if they hit for neutral damage), which was worth the small increase in power for Earthquake/Stone Edge imo. Thunder and Ice Fang can be changed, but they were originally put on the set because it was meant to be able to revenge +1 Gyarados and Dragonite, but if your team doesn't have trouble those two, there are other options for those move slots.
 
As everybody knows, Choice Scarf Flygon does this better. Just because Gliscor can run a Choice Scarf set doesn't mean it should. While you are able to revenge kill Gyarados and Dragonite, so can numerous other Pokemon who don't have to rely on such weak moves to do so. When the foe figures out you are scarfed, the jig is up so to speak. The opponent won't be leaving their Gyarados or Dragonite in on you, easily setting up their Lucario, Gengar, Breloom, or whatever against you. Furthermore, unlike Flygon, Gliscor cannot hit Rotom-A for decent damage. It will be walled all day long by more Pokemon than Flygon would be. Skarmory too, comes in easily, taking next to nothing from Thunder Fang and unlike Flygon, Fire Blast isn't even an option. While the Fighting resistance may be useful, you are better of using the Stallbreaker set pretty much all the time if you have trouble with Fighting-types. You can argue that Gliscor is easier to switch in, but you trade a Fighting resistance for a neutrality to Water and a resistance to Fire, as well as a resistance to Stealth Rock which Flygon possesses. If you want the more powerful Earthquake, just use Adamant Flygon. It is still faster than this Gliscor. So in conclusion, getting a possible surprise kill every other game is not worth it when Flygon is available. Gliscor has better things to do.
 
I have also thought about using Gliscor this way as it does have a lot of appealing aspects as a Choice Scarf user.

First, from a switching standpoint, neutrality to SR while possessing immunity to spikes, t-spikes and sand is very good.

Gliscor also having access to U-Turn, a key move to a scarf set.

As others have mentioned though, there are some major let downs-- namely that Flygon outclasses Gliscor at almost everything. Better offensive coverage, better resiliance to passive damage, better resistances, and even better ATK and SPD.

Anyone who has used Flygon knows that its biggest let down is that it hits the OU metagame about as hard as a baby seal. Gliscor with 5 less base ATK and lacking STAB Outrage is . . . well . . . very disappointing.

It is too bad Gliscor doesn't have Brave Bird or something as Flying/Ground would actually be really good coverage worthy of a choice user-- but Aerial Ace is just too pitiful to even consider.

How about something like this:

Gliscor
[SET]
name: Choice Scarf
move 1: Stealth Rock
move 2: Earthquake
move 3: Stone Edge / Ice Fang
move 4: U-Turn
item: Choice Scarf
nature: Adamant
evs: 4 HP / 252 Attack / 252 Speed
ability: Hyper Cutter

Condensing the offensive to rely on Edge-Quake coverage to make room for SR.

I know this looks strange, but from my experience Scarf'd Stealth Rock/Spikes can actually be really useful, especially on turns the opponent is likely to waste using Taunt on you without realizing you are faster. There are many times a Scarf'd pokemon faces turns where it cannot predict well, and while U-Turn is good for those turns, Stealth Rock does something a little more menacing to the opponent.

I have had good results with Scarf-TTar with Stealth Rock in the past, and Gliscor may be capable of doing similar. This becomes more of a support-scarfer, taking advantage of Gliscor's good physical bulk, while having immunity to Thunder Wave and Trick-Scarf.

Overall, I would still say meh-- the biggest problem being Gliscor's pathetically bad offensive. If you thought Flygon was weak, Gliscor's 5 less base ATK and reliance on Un-STAB Stone Edge or Ice Fang is . . . bleh . . . If Gliscor managed to get Brave Bird or some equally good Flying attack in 5th Gen, I could see a scarf set working, but without it . . . no, not really . . .

Probably not analysis worthy, but it could make a fun gimmick. This is simply the only way I could see myself using Gliscor over Flygon as a Scarfer. How did Flygon manage to be born the like, one of the only ground pokemon to not get SR? >_>
 
Stab jolly outrage from flygon can clean up a ton late game, even against ops you would use SE or EQ against but this set doesn't have that one kill switch move like popular scarfers do like heatran (explosion) or flygon (outrage) which makes this only a bait set / gimmick which is not gonna make it.
 
@ Metanite
I admit that the Fangs are obviously not the strongest moves, but they do get the job done against their intended targets.
You say that once the opponent finds out Gliscor is Scarfed (during the time it takes it will usually net a kill), they won't be leaving their Gyarados/Dragonite in against Gliscor, Do they leave Gyarados/Dragonite in against Flygon? and let them switch out if they want, 'cause when they come back in, they are down to 50%.
You said Gliscor will let other Pokemon set up if it has a Scarf...Really? That is a risk that you take with any other Choiced Pokemon. Not only that, but Flygon can often give your opponent 2 or 3 turns of set-up, if they get stuck on Outrage.
Next, Gliscor can hit Rotom-A for decent damage. In the AC, I mentioned Night Slash, which gets a 2HKO on 4/0 and a 3HKO on 252/168 Bold Rotom (which is the same as Flygon's Outrage).
True, Gliscor does get walled by Skarmory (which is why it is mentioned in the Counters section), but Flygon can't do much Skarmory, unless it has Fire Blast, which is easy set-up bait for many Pokemon, and it can't 2HKO Specially Defensive Skarmory.
Gliscor is not just trading a Fighting resistance for a Fire resist and Water neutrality. It is using its higher Defense to help it take neutral attacks, like Extreme Speed, Bullet Punch, Crunch, etc.
Yes, I could just use Adamant Flygon, but if I were too use ScarfGon, I would want to make sure that it could at least tie with any opposing base 100 scarfers I would come across, which is not the point of this Gliscor set.
You said that Gliscor has better things to do, but the whole point of this set is to take Gliscor out of the role of standard stall breaker, and surprise your opponent with something unexpected (which certainly helps to win a battle imo).

@ChouToshio
Maybe Stealth Rock might work on Gliscor, which obviously changes its role to Scarfed Support (which is something that I have never liked myself, but it may work). Who knows, if you put Taunt on that set, and adjust the EVs, it might make an interesting lead.
Maybe this set won't be analysis worthy, that's obviously for QC to decide, but I felt like posting this set since it has worked well for me fairly consistently.

@Curtains
While Gliscor lacks that "one kill move" like Explosion and Outrage, those moves are not very hard to predict around, and if you happen to get out-predicted that could cost you the match.
 
Gliscor's Attacking stat is not the strongest, and combined with only one STAB Strong Physical move in Earthquake which has many resistances and immunities in the metagame along with many other extremely low powered moves, I can't see this Gliscor being really threatening at all. Scarf Gliscor is COMPLETELY outclassed by Flygon with STAB Outrage and STAB Earthquakes along with a much stronger movepool.

EDIT: Flygon also learns U-turn :P
 
The only reason I would use this over Flygon is so you don't get OHKO'd by +2 Extremespeed from Lucario, IMO, which you could just use the normal Gliscor set and do the same.
 
stellar said:
252 Jolly Choice Scarf Gliscor Earthquake
vs. 0/4 Adamant Life Orb Lucario : 354 - 416 126% - 148%
Click to expand...

Ty for clearing that up for me :D lol

Nvrtheless im still iffy about the set even though Earthquake happens to OHKO one of the most frail and most powerful sweepers in the game.
 
I suppose you can set up on any Choice Scarf user, but Flygon's main STAB is only resisted by Steel-types, while Jirachi threatens to flinch foe's to death. Gliscor's only STAB is Earthquake, a terrible type to be locked into. Once you have killed whatever you need to, what is this guy to do? Maybe clean up late game with Earthquake? Flygon can actually sweep, killing Pokemon like Gengar and Jolteon. This guy cannot. Furthermore, if you use Night Slash, then you can't beat Dragonite / Gyarados. Why would I want to compromise who I can hurt when I can just use the faster, more powerful, Flygon. You have failed to give us a reason to use this set over Choice Scarf Flygon. Your OP rambles on like it doesn't even exist. If you want this to go anywhere, you MUST explain this set's few advantages.
 
I tested and played with Gliscor EXTENSIVELY when I was rewriting its analysis, and one thing I found when messing around with Swords Dance or Offensive in general - I never needed the extra speed. Gliscor's movepool just isn't worth it trying to do what it does. It has U-Turn and EQ, great. Flygon and Jirachi both have higher attack AND speed, so this is outclassed 100% in every single aspect that's important to a Choice Scarfer. At the least with things like SD Gliscor, you can Swords Dance as they switch, and while Gliscor has Pursuit over Flygon and Jirachi, Tyranitar and Scizor are just better options considering their Pursuits actually threaten things.

Even then, I have no understanding why you would use Ice Fang and Thunder Fang in tandem when you could just use Stone Edge to hit both Gyarados and Dragonite anyway, still probably KO the pair and just use something like Pursuit or Night Slash to kill Starmie, Gengar and Rotom. And I doubt you KO them anyway. Besides, Pursuit is useless since Starmie isn't running from you - it will always outspeed standard Gliscor and OHKO with Hydro Pump, Gengar have options like Substitute, Pain Split or just hitting you with Shadow Ball, and Rotom-A depends on the form. Most of them will just Will-O-Wisp, thus making you the most useless thing ever.

Why not use Flygon? Why not use SD Gliscor?
these are the questions that I'm really have trouble answering.
 
Zystral said:
Why not use Flygon? Why not use SD Gliscor?
these are the questions that I'm really have trouble answering.
Click to expand...

Absolutely no reason. Flygon has higher attack and speed than Gliscor and has a better STAB in Outrage that can actually hurt something it doesn't hit super effectively (SE fangs are weaker than most STAB attacks). SD is one thing Gliscor has that Flygon doesn't. If running an offensive Gliscor without SD, then Flygon would simply do it better. There's probably a reason why Gliscor doesn't already have a choice set on site.
 
shrang said:
The only reason I would use this over Flygon is so you don't get OHKO'd by +2 Extremespeed from Lucario, IMO, which you could just use the normal Gliscor set and do the same.
Click to expand...

The thing is that when comparing this to flygon, you cannot just compare it to the standard, but must compare it to all possible spreads.

Adamant Flygon with 80 HP / 212 ATK / 212 Speed has the same ATK and Speed while surviving the Luke's Ex-Speed (albeit just barely . . .)

Alternatively, 252 ATK / 144DEF / 112 Speed Flygon takes 74.8% - 88% from Ex-Speed, has 2 points more speed, and still has Outrage.
 
I just thought i should mention that Stone Edge does almost the same amount of damage as Ice fang does on Dragonite and thunder fang does to Gyarados... like a 20 Base Power difference.
 
calentaros said:
I just thought i should mention that Stone Edge does almost the same amount of damage as Ice fang does on Dragonite and thunder fang does to Gyarados... like a 20 Base Power difference.
Click to expand...
No it doesn't.

65 base power * 4x weakness = 260 base power.
100 base power * 2x weakness = 200 base power.
 
supermarth64 said:
No it doesn't.

65 base power * 4x weakness = 260 base power.
100 base power * 2x weakness = 200 base power.
Click to expand...

Oh srry I thought stone edge had 120 BP lol. Stone edge is a better move overall anyway though... Even if Gliscor does have apretty average attack stat it can at least do something with Stone Edge.
 
What's in the OP of this thread does not convince me, sincerely. In all honesty, I don't see the utility of using a Choice Scarf on Gliscor when the outcomes of doing so are just not even promising -- Seven Deadly Sins already commented on this aspect, by the way. It is true that Gliscor has a great type, and a very useful STAB (Ground) but it is really a nightmare to predict what your opponent is going to do almost in every turn that Gliscor is brought in, in order not to get locked into Earthquake -- this, along with the fact that Thunder / Ice Fang are pretty weak overall and hence give your opponent even more chances to set up, make CS Gliscor be a mediocre Pokemon for this task.

I've always been reluctant to reject sets because they are "outclassed by x", though in this case I just can't see the need of having such set on the site when it does probably more bad than good when using it on a team. Hypothetically, if you ask for my advice when building a team, I'd say 'go for CS Flygon' which at least has a secondary STAB attack that's only resisted by Steel-type Pokemon.

QC REJECTED (2/3)
 
Posting to say I absolutely love Scarf Gliscor. While it is true that flygon does this better, there arent a lot of differences between them and the fact that Gliscor can pull this off effectively warrants it a spot in the analysis. Dusknoir's Tank set is almost completely outdone by Rotom-A, but is in the analysis. This should be too. I will say I dont like the moveset much. I ran this (dont know how this compares to Erodent's):

Gliscor @ Choice Scarf
Jolly / Sand Veil
4 HP / 252 Attack / 252 Speed
-Earthquake
-Stone Edge
-U Turn
-Night Slash

I run Jolly because it is typically more reliable and allows you to worry less about Agiligross or Agility Empoleon (who may outspeed you but typically do not). Hyper Cutter isnt useful for Gliscor because the only Intimidate user anymore is Gyarados and Gliscor should have no part in doing anything but U Turning if Gyara is coming IN. If Gyara is at + 1 Gliscor can Stone Edge revenge kill though. Dodging an occasional attack coming in with Sand Veil is better is every way. QuakeEdge combo is nice coverage one many offensive threats, and like Flygon U Turn is the main move for the midgame. There isnt much to do in the last slot, but I really like Night Slash because Gengar NEVER switches and KO'ing it is really sweet because Gengar is such a pain to play against.

Gliscor packs a useful Fighting resistance, which is actually why I tried it in the first place. Flygon doesn't have that resistance if it matters. Gliscor is practically never Scarfed, so if the opponent actually notices your lack of Leftovers recovery they'll assume your a Baton Passer or a SD Sweeper, a definite advantage and opportunity to use a surprising set to get ahead in the battle.

(basically what this has on flygon is the fighting resitance and the surprise factor...the surprise factor being the biggest boon this set has)

The most effective partner I used with this is Shaymin, because Gliscor brings in Water types and Ground types that Shaymin can take advantage of. Flying types are also likely to switch in so having SR up is very helpful for Gliscor's U Turn spamming.

Ok, that turned into a short essay, but with some edits I think this set can go on site!

EDIT: I'd be happy to get some (non cherrypicked) logs if QC people need some more evidence that the set works...I'd just need some time. Let me know.
 
Ok, I have moved the Fangs to AC mentions and replaced them with Stone Edge and Night Slash, because the Fangs are really only one time use moves, where as Stone Edge and Night Slash can be effective against multiple targets.
Many of you have brought up the "Why use this over Flygon?" question, and like Friar stated, the biggest reason for this is surprise. But in addition to the surprise factor, Gliscor's higher Defense allows it to take priority and other physical attacks better, and Gliscor's resistance to fighting (which seems to be on the rise) allows it to switch into the fighting types of the tier. It can switch into and OHKO Infernape (though must watch out for Fire Blast/Overheat/HP Ice), can 2HKO Machamp (must watch out for Ice Punch) and can switch into Breloom and 2HKO with Ice Fang, or U-Turn out, leaving Breloom vulnerable to your other teammates. I am sure that many of you will still chose Flygon, if you had too chose between the two, but just because you say a set is "Outclassed by ___" does not mean that it isn't an effective set.
I have also added Shaymin to the teammates section (thanks for pointing that out Friar).
 
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