gimmick sets, discussion threads, and you

[chaos]

If you want to discuss a pokemon, do it intelligently. Don't advocate retarded nonsense like Aerial Ace/Dig Leafeon. This is a board for competitive battling, don't post gimmicky sets that don't work. Learn some pokemon theory (and back it up with actually PLAYING competitive pokemon - starting with Advance on NetBattle might be a great idea!) before trying to help other members with shittastic sets.

discussion of how we could curb this nonsense and/or general comments are appreciated.

edit: it seems people who have been registered here only a month or two are the primary culprits of this. if you are new, be new. :/ don't sling your advice at everyone, you don't know enough about pokemon to give it.

 

[Falkon]

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

If more people read the darn analysis it'd wipe out a good half or more of the stupid posts.

I dunno, I love the discussion threads and all, but with all the different analysis out there now I feel like way too much obvious stuff is said in them and I haven't noticed any pointings towards the analysis lately...could the requirement to link to the analysis be added as well?

Just a thought.

 

[MiekZor]

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

If more people read the darn analysis it'd wipe out a good half or more of the stupid posts.

I dunno, I love the discussion threads and all, but with all the different analysis out there now I feel like way too much obvious stuff is said in them and I haven't noticed any pointings towards the analysis lately...could the requirement to link to the analysis be added as well?

Just a thought.

That's a good idea imo. The analyses give several worthwhile options (for Pokemon that have more than one realistic option available), and they're being overlooked too often.

 

[crabnebula]

People should "Lurk Moar". And while discussing the movesets, actually think how the battle situation is going to be. And how will you take decision if you were in your opponent's place. A Leafeon isn't going to switch into a Starmie, would it?

 

[Kumar]

Dumb stuff like that isn't going to help anyone. So please, for the sake of sanity, don't post without thinking first.

 

[BARILLIAN]

Firebot policy, please. Post too much stupidity and get your access removed for some time. A week or two would be fine, I think.

 

[chaos]

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24334 This is a prime example of what I'm talking about.

 

[Glen ^^]

edit: it seems people who have been registered here only a month or two are the primary culprits of this. if you are new, be new. :/ don't sling your advice at everyone, you don't know enough about pokemon to give it.

The bigger the post count, the better you are, too?

Anyway, bout the move "Dig":

For some reason, Surgo quoted me with an offensive comment in the Flareon thread and closed it. In case he doesn't know, Powerful Herb cuts Dig's "Charging" time.
Always OHKOs Jolteon and Raichu, and has a shot at OHKOing Infernape. Gimmick? Maybe. Works? Yes, I use it.


Sorry if I sounded harsh.

 

[Matt]

The problem is it doesn't work. This is really ridiculous, something like this shouldn't even be an issue on a competitive battling site.

 

[chaos]

The bigger the post count, the better you are, too?

Big talk from someone who uses Dig! Seriously though, it's more correlated to how long you've been playing competitive Pokemon/how much you've battled over the years. If you joined here and haven't played competitively yet (or didn't play in a previous generation) it's very easy to think you know more than you do :(

 

[Aielyn]

If you want to discuss a pokemon, do it intelligently. Don't advocate retarded nonsense like Aerial Ace/Dig Leafeon. This is a board for competitive battling, don't post gimmicky sets that don't work. Learn some pokemon theory (and back it up with actually PLAYING competitive pokemon - starting with Advance on NetBattle might be a great idea!) before trying to help other members with shittastic sets.

discussion of how we could curb this nonsense and/or general comments are appreciated.

edit: it seems people who have been registered here only a month or two are the primary culprits of this. if you are new, be new. :/ don't sling your advice at everyone, you don't know enough about pokemon to give it.

Wow, how elitist can you get?

As I said over in the Leafeon discussion thread, if you curb discussion of movesets (yes, EVEN bad movesets), you're only hurting yourselves. Have you ever heard the term "diamond in the rough"?

Gimmicky sets, if they're actually discussed, may actually lead to a genuinely new idea, a new moveset that is actually worthy of consideration. If you're only allowed to suggest tried-and-tested movesets, you're not going to have any new ideas.

Let me give you an example... consider the move Dig. What uses are there for it? Think about it for a minute.


Are you done, yet?


Don't just say "there aren't any", because that's not true.


Have you thought of one, yet?


No? Then keep thinking...



Now... did you come up with anything? Did you consider combining it with Block/Mean Look/Spider Web? Did you consider using it to make the opponent switch to something that you can counter? Did you consider anything different from "it's bad because the opponent can predict, and switch to a counter"?

Try it again with other moves that are generally considered "bad". Obviously, moves like "tackle" are simply not worth it, with better moves available on just about every pokemon (excepting Caterpie, etc :-P), but think of others, like Captivate, Feint, Fly, Lucky Chant, Razor Wind, Trump Card, etc. Are there ways that these moves can be used effectively? And don't forget to also consider the various items (Powerful Herb, Destiny Knot, etc) and Abilities.


If you're really so bothered by people posting "gimmick sets", why don't you have a thread dedicated to discussing "gimmick" ideas, a place where people can suggest a moveset for a pokemon, simply in order to hear opinions on whether or not it's feasible as a new moveset? A place where the response won't be "Pokemon XXX really shouldn't be doing that - go read the standard analysis, that's what he should be doing".

 

[Phuquoph]

You really need to weigh up something being original against something being actually useful. I could use Choice Band Blissey, would it be original? Yes. Would it be useful? No.

A lot of these sets are a case of "trying too hard". Each Pokemon has its limitations and by trying to make it do something it is either very average or totally worthless at you're not playing to its strengths. Most of the more prominent members - or "elitists" if you like - have years and years of experience, so obviously they're a greater authority on such matters. Take advantage of this and learn from them.

Honestly, take the advice and "lurk more". It worked for me, I learned more from those with knowledge and experience than I would have from posting any ill conceived ideas I had when I was a new user. Being new and lacking in experience isn't a bad thing, but acting like you know more than those of us who have spent years battling, theorizing and researching most certainly is.

 

[adman2]

If I remember correctly, this was an old gimmick thread that you could post your gimmick ideas in.

EDIT: For some reason, my old link didn't work. I'll try again:

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23622&highlight=gimmick

 

[Glen ^^]

Haha, thanks for answering Chaos ^^

 

[Carl]

Wow, how elitist can you get?

As I said over in the Leafeon discussion thread, if you curb discussion of movesets (yes, EVEN bad movesets), you're only hurting yourselves. Have you ever heard the term "diamond in the rough"?

Gimmicky sets, if they're actually discussed, may actually lead to a genuinely new idea, a new moveset that is actually worthy of consideration. If you're only allowed to suggest tried-and-tested movesets, you're not going to have any new ideas.

You miss the point completely. It's fine to suggest movesets that differ from the norm so long as they actually work effectively. I'll give you a common example from Advance. A Mean Look/Fly Crobat does work but seriously I could be outputting more damage over the course of two turns with Wing Attack without having to use Mean Look or lock myself in for a switch to a resistance. Not only that, I have the freedom to use Choice Band because I'm not forced to use Mean Look. Could the Fly set be used as Toxic stall? Yes. Does it play to Crobat's strength of speed. Not really no. And don't give me "who are we to determine what works effectively" because you obviously came here to discuss pokemon intelligently and get advice in the first place. You registered here, nobody forced you. I'm not trying to come off as elitist and neither is chaos but there are users here who know their shit. Phuquoph said what I would like to say very eloquently so just scroll up and re-read his post for extra emphasis.

 

[Planswalker89]

I'm going to start this post off by saying I'm new. Well, relatively new. I've been lurking for quite a while now, but unfortunately I haven't gotten much hands-on experience. I don't consider myself "good" in any fashion, though I do believe I'm getting better.

Now that that's out of the way...

I think one of the main problems us n00blets and newblets are running in to is that while we think "hey, putting x move on y pokemon looks great because of a b and c!" we don't really look beyond that pokemon.

This game isn't about 1 on 1 battles, it's basically 6 on 6. Sure, a sweeper Leafeon might sound good on paper (I'm just using this as an example) but are you going to be using it often in battles against standards like Salamence and Blissey?

That's the main reason why we have tiers. While they're not up for D/P yet (here, at least, some other sites have come up with them but yeah, OOPS CAN'T TALK ABOUT THAT), they are there so that we know which pokemon are not only the most used, but the most usable. No one's going to use Bibarel in serious OU play (I hope). Not because there aren't things that Bibarel can do that the other OU's can't (like evolve from BIDOOF. >_>" ) but because he's so outclassed by other pokemon. Who would you rather use for STAB water-type attacks, Bibarel or Gyarados?

I guess what I'm trying to say is: Before you go making a post/topic about a pokemon moveset, you should

1) Read the analysis for said pokemon. If the moveset's up there already, you'll look like an idiot trying to say "HEY CHECK THIS NEW MOVESET OUT!!!" when its already got a nice analysis up there already.

2) Test the set out yourself. Competitor isn't out yet, so some people might have a harder time with this, but it's really the best way to see if the set works. If you find it doesn't work, then don't post it. I can't say this enough, even though I haven't gotten a chance to do this myself, TEST THE SET IF YOU CAN.

3) Ask yourself "Would this pokemon with this set and spread fit into my team? Would I use it?" Go down the threat list, and see if your set could be a reliable counter to a few things that are listed there. This means they need to a) switch in without getting OHKO'd, b) survive long enough to get a move or two off, c) KO the pokemon or otherwise cause it to leave the field. Obviously, if you were able to test it, this step is rather redundant. But it's still nice to go over so that you'll be able to be more informative when you make the topic/post. Moveover, think about how it would fit in a team of 6. What pokemon would work nicely with this one? What kind of team would this pokemon be best in?

4) Be prepared for negative feedback. Many times you'll get it, and it's probably because you didn't really look into the moveset enough. And once you've made the topic (if you did), try and take the feedback without lashing back. The people here (for the most part) know what they are talking about. It's even possible that the set has been discussed before, and ruled out for specific reasons.

That's all I can think of right now. Hopefully I'm not just talking out of my ass and saying nonsense or something. Or saying something someone else said. I'm known to do that without realizing it. >_>"

One last thing, if you come to Smogon, expect elitism. Sorry, but it's true.

 

[matg1002]

I'm 100% with planswalker89.

I'm also new to the boards, but I've played through every generation at least once and started getting competitive in advance. Yet, I've only lurked around the forums, and only began posting now.

I wouldn't say stop posting movesets entirely, but I think it's important that they're actually well thought out and prepared and can be well defended. You CAN make a moveset using any combination of the moves available (unless its an illegal set) and we're all aware of that. What we need are sets that would actually be worth it for someone else to use. Still, I wouldn't rule all seemingly new posters' opinions out - they may have come across a certain situation before and be able to offer their insight into it. It's only when that's obviously not the case that it becomes annoying.

 

[Dragontamer]

*Sigh*

The beginning of the Leafeon discussion was very similar to the beginning of the hitmonchan discussion:
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18656&highlight=hitmonchan

However, at the end we found a potential niche after exhausting the many sub-par movesets that Hitmonchan had. (The discussion is not "over" IMO... more can be learned. But its a somewhat dead thread now...). The discussion would pit Chan against other fighting pokemon (like Medicham) and try to see if Chan can do anything that its newer cousins couldn't do.

Hell, the Hitmonchan thread probably started even worse than the Leafeon thread. Someone recommended Choice Band + Swords Dance... and Hitmonchan doesn't even learn Swords Dance :-/

Anyway, the difference I guess is that in the Hitmonchan discussion, people were respectful to each other. In the Leafeon discussion, you have insults comming from both sides instead of actually discussing the idea. If you don't like the idea, break the idea, never the person. This message is neither to the veterans nor the newer players. It is obvious to me who started the flame war... but both sides continued the flame war.

There is something called "Private Messages". If you feel insulted by someone's post or attitude in his/her post, PM them. Tell them you're insulted. But don't bring it out in a public forum. That makes you look stupid and immature. Furthermore, it leaves little room for forgiveness on either side.

I'd like to end on the note that discussion threads are not advise threads: they are discussions. Good ideas are discussed, bad ideas are discussed. We already have analysis for advise. We should be ready to see good or bad movesets in discussions. Furthermore, we cannot expect newbies to post good movesets or to "lurk more". They are newbies. You just can't get rid of that. By definition, newbies are ignorant... possibly not stupid... but by definition ignorant. Criticism is one of the ways newbies learn and it is a fact of life that we will have an endless stream of newbies coming on board as Pokemon's popularity continues to grow.

That said, I request that this thread be unstickied and deleted. Yes, I disagree with this new rule somewhat, but thats not why this thread should be deleted. The flame war has crept into this thread. This thread serves no more purpose other than a place to provide cheap shots at both parties outside the original thread of discussion.

 

[Surgo]

By definition, newbies are ignorant... possibly not stupid... but by definition ignorant.

Which is exactly the point of lurking more. Newbie is not a bad thing; nothing wrong with being new. There is something wrong with being new and posting a ton of crap movesets without ever thinking to see if they would actually work. "Lurk more" is a fine and correct thing to expect. This thread is sure as hell not going to be unstickied or deleted any time soon.

 

[Misty]

bullshit

Here is why you are wrong: because we have lots of experience and knowledge, and, in all likelihood, you don't. I could go on and on about why Dig is a bad move and all strategies related to it are mediocre at best, and maybe you'd eventually accept our reasoning, and maybe that would be more effective than what I'm going to do. Instead, I'm going to make a logical fallacy and request that you accept the experience and knowledge of the battlers here. There is a reason Smogon is considered "the" competitive site - the top contributors are experienced battlers who have played a long time - some since competitive RBY - and have combated and used strategies that defy numbering. I'm sure many people here have seen people attempt - and fail - all kinds of strategies that use Dig. Dig is not a new move; it has been around since RBY, and in fact it was at its best in that generation. Yet you rarely see it used, even then - why? Because it is proven to be a poor move against competent opponents.

Do you see why people are giving you a hard time? Being stubborn really isn't a very welcome personality trait here, particularly when you are going against the grain. You can't provide a reasonable support for Dig - only theories and ignorance.

Assuming you're still angry and stubborn and ready to fight with me, I'll make one last request - go out and use Dig. Use it on Netbattle or WiFi. See if you can get it to work with any strategy you can imagine. Make sure you battle competent opponents (hint: try the people who disagreed with you), and just try to make it work. If you can, in fact, make it work in a way that has relevance to competitive battling, I will make a public apology. But until then, expect nothing but mockery and anger.

If you're really so bothered by people posting "gimmick sets", why don't you have a thread dedicated to discussing "gimmick" ideas, a place where people can suggest a moveset for a pokemon, simply in order to hear opinions on whether or not it's feasible as a new moveset? A place where the response won't be "Pokemon XXX really shouldn't be doing that - go read the standard analysis, that's what he should be doing".

If you don't care about effectiveness, why would you care what anyone thinks? And if you DO care about effectiveness, why would you use anything but the most effective ones? Do you really just want to use a "gimmicky" set, just to go against the grain? What's the point? Your own satisfaction?

 

[Blackbeltsam]

I must agree with the rule. Discussion of Pokemon is just fine, however, if people aren't intelligent about it, it all falls apart, turning from a discussion to people beating their fists on the chests and going "ook, ook, ook"


Now I'll admit, I've had some bad ideas as well (Which was, thankfully, locked) but I must agree: Common sense and logic are a neccesity here.

 

[Dragontamer]

If you don't care about effectiveness, why would you care what anyone thinks? And if you DO care about effectiveness, why would you use anything but the most effective ones? Do you really just want to use a "gimmicky" set, just to go against the grain? What's the point? Your own satisfaction?

Personally speaking, I love the idea where a trick room + Focus Sash Shuppet kills an uber by doing Trick-Room then Destiny Bond. It won't win you any tourny, and taunt can ruin your day, but it is funny.

As to the actual debate: Satisfaction is unfortunately outside the realm of logic and debate. Logical debate can only prove relationships but rarely comes into use when the actual rewards/punishments of the system are not lined up between the debaters. While it may not be any reward to have a gimmick set to you Misty, I think it is obvious that there are battlers out there who wish to "break the mold" and have a set that no one has thought about before.

Pokemon is one of the few games available where exploring just for "fun" is possible. Assuming 60 attacks per pokemon (I pulled that out of thin air, but I can assure you that at least Banette has more than 60 avaliable attacks), then the number of combinations of attacks are a combination of 60 taken 4 at a time, or 487,635 different combinations of the same pokemon, not including EV spreads or items for each combination. Then of course comes Mew and Smeargle with well over 100+ things taken 4 at a time which are several millions of different movesets for each pokemon.

The fact of the matter is, the "fun" part of Pokemon revolves around this. The fact that there are literally millions of ways to put together a team (multiply the # of pokemon combinations with 2431522835, the number of 493 pokemon taken 6 at a time to form a team, then the number of items, EV spreads, etc. etc.)

Competitive Battlers try to simplify the game by cutting down this number of combinations. It is necessary to provide a proper analysis of the game. Really, no competitive battler would want to go through all of the movesets for all of the Pokemon... there are just too many "stupid" movesets like Gust + Tackle Pidgey or whatever.

A gimmick battler would on the other hand, want to prove this fact about Pokemon: that there are so many things that people do not consider and that there is still room to explore. Probably because Pokemon is currently seen as a child game that this impulse is here... but that is the best explanation I can come up with. That said, a "gimmick" set must do two things:
1. It must work in a competitive environment
2. It must surprise not only your foe, but the entire community

Tyraniboah would be a "gimmick" under this definition because it shocked the metagame, but that really is the "gold" that I believe gimmick users are looking for. They are really looking for the best set that no one has found yet.

Which is exactly the point of lurking more. Newbie is not a bad thing; nothing wrong with being new. There is something wrong with being new and posting a ton of crap movesets without ever thinking to see if they would actually work. "Lurk more" is a fine and correct thing to expect. This thread is sure as hell not going to be unstickied or deleted any time soon.

I can't say that this is unfair... but I think we honestly cannot expect ignorant newbies to know whether something is crap or not. That is the problem with being a newbie ya see... you really don't know when a moveset would work or not.

I understand the necessity of this thread, but there are just too many posts here that refer to the thread that prompted this one. I may disagree with this thread, but I'd like it to be effective. Currently, the majority of the thread (including my posts... I'm not leaving myself out of this) do not contribute to this thread really. I think locking this thread, stickying it, and deleting all the replies would contribute to its effectiveness.

 

[Synre]

Competitive Battlers try to simplify the game by cutting down this number of combinations. It is necessary to provide a proper analysis of the game. Really, no competitive battler would want to go through all of the movesets for all of the Pokemon... there are just too many "stupid" movesets like Gust + Tackle Pidgey or whatever.

I like how you put "stupid" in quotes there. There's nothing that isn't stupid about that set or a lot of the sets that are seriously being proposed in threads lately, and really since Uncharted Territory/Stark Mountain's inception. It has nothing to do with not 'wanting to go through all the potential movesets,' it's a matter of picking apart each Pokemon's learnset to pick the moves that make the Pokemon, and that Pokemon in the scheme of your team's synergy, the most powerful.

A gimmick battler would on the other hand, want to prove this fact about Pokemon: that there are so many things that people do not consider and that there is still room to explore. Probably because Pokemon is currently seen as a child game that this impulse is here...

That's a funny coincidence, since you seem to be encouraging movesets I would expect to see from a child...

Tyraniboah would be a "gimmick" under this definition because it shocked the metagame, but that really is the "gold" that I believe gimmick users are looking for. They are really looking for the best set that no one has found yet.

This pure fallacy. How you explained it, I mean, Tyraniboah isn't a 'gimmick', it's a metagame counter. It was a moveset designed to counter the most popular walls in that generation at that period in time. It's not like Tyranitar has 50 base attack or the moves it was using were 50 base power - it was simply good stats and good moves being used together to make a good moveset for the current metagame on a good Pokemon.

McGar worked much the same way, although obviously it became much less effective as time went on. There's a big difference between a metagame counter at the level of one of those sets and something ridiculous like the Power Herb Dig bullshit people are trying to spew. I don't know if you guys just have some kind of lack of understanding of the difference between why something like Boah worked when it was created in spite of not being a standard set, and something like that aforementioned gimmick is just a silly, ineffective gimmick, or if you're just trying too hard to try to make something original and amazing to get some sort of e-fame in spite of not really having the level of knowledge and ability required to change the game, but honestly I think there are just an incredible amount of users who would be so much better off chilling out and playing with some standard pokemon and standard sets until they understood the competitive facets of this game better. Experimenting works a hell of a lot better when you have experience and the skill that comes with at team building and in-battle prediction and a majority of the newer posters in this forum just aren't there yet.




But I digress... this is a competitive battling forum. If players are playing to be gimmicky rather than playing to win, I have to wonder if they are at the right forum.

 

[Surgo]

But I digress... this is a competitive battling forum. If players are playing to be gimmicky rather than playing to win, I have to wonder if they are at the right forum.

Highlighting this for truth. If you're playing to be gimmicky instead of playing to win, you're at the wrong damn website.

 

[Aielyn]

Here is why you are wrong: because we have lots of experience and knowledge, and, in all likelihood, you don't. I could go on and on about why Dig is a bad move and all strategies related to it are mediocre at best, and maybe you'd eventually accept our reasoning, and maybe that would be more effective than what I'm going to do. Instead, I'm going to make a logical fallacy and request that you accept the experience and knowledge of the battlers here. There is a reason Smogon is considered "the" competitive site - the top contributors are experienced battlers who have played a long time - some since competitive RBY - and have combated and used strategies that defy numbering. I'm sure many people here have seen people attempt - and fail - all kinds of strategies that use Dig. Dig is not a new move; it has been around since RBY, and in fact it was at its best in that generation. Yet you rarely see it used, even then - why? Because it is proven to be a poor move against competent opponents.

Do you see why people are giving you a hard time? Being stubborn really isn't a very welcome personality trait here, particularly when you are going against the grain. You can't provide a reasonable support for Dig - only theories and ignorance.

Assuming you're still angry and stubborn and ready to fight with me, I'll make one last request - go out and use Dig. Use it on Netbattle or WiFi. See if you can get it to work with any strategy you can imagine. Make sure you battle competent opponents (hint: try the people who disagreed with you), and just try to make it work. If you can, in fact, make it work in a way that has relevance to competitive battling, I will make a public apology. But until then, expect nothing but mockery and anger.

Oh, believe me, if I come to decide that it would fit well in a team I'm building, I'll demonstrate Dig's capability one of these days. In the meantime, I want to emphasise that sometimes the best solution doesn't come from the expert, but from the novice. The expert has a lot of things going for them, including knowledge and experience, but they often also suffer from a lack of innovation - they stick to "tried-and-true" approaches.

That's why the ivory tower approach, where the elitist expert refuses to listen to anything unusual suggested by the novice, can be a problem. Take, for example, the Leafeon discussion - I suggested a moveset that is slightly different from the standard, something that uses a bit more of an element of surprise (and natural gift can really do that, since the same pokemon will end up with a different move if given a different berry, so in one match it might be Ice, then in the next, Flying - it maintains its surprise factor even if the foe already knows your moveset). All that the "experts" could do was attack it for not having a way to handle Skarmory or Weezing, even when I pointed out that there are dangers that face the standard Leafeon that my one can handle, they kept driving it back to Skarmory and Weezing.

A good demonstration of what I'm saying is your attitude towards Dig - you dismiss it as bad immediately, even though there are many things that changed this generation, and some of those can lead you to new approaches that effectively use what were considered "bad" moves. However, as an expert, you have seen failed Dig moveset after failed Dig moveset, so it has become ingrained within your mind that Dig is a bad move. One of the few advantages a novice has over an expert is that they don't have anything ingrained in their mind - they are free to explore just about any moveset without the bias that resides in the expert's mind.

If you don't care about effectiveness, why would you care what anyone thinks? And if you DO care about effectiveness, why would you use anything but the most effective ones? Do you really just want to use a "gimmicky" set, just to go against the grain? What's the point? Your own satisfaction?

Who said anything about not caring about effectiveness? Sometimes a moveset that isn't QUITE as effective as another moveset, but still fairly effective, can fill a hole in a team where the most effective moveset wouldn't. As people keep repeating over and over again, Pokemon isn't 1vs1, it's 6vs6. What is most effective in isolation (1vs1) isn't always most effective in the real situation (6vs6) under specific circumstances.

And the term "gimmick" doesn't imply that it's bad, just that it's different. I think Dragontamer has provided a strong example for why gimmicky isn't inherently a bad thing.