Gen 8 Gen 8 National Dex Ubers Metagame Discussion

[Bobsican]

Art by Gaboswampert​

Welcome to the Gen 8 NatDex Ubers Metagame Discussion Thread! Based on Sword and Shield, this format is characterized by being technically the very first instance of National Dex Ubers, now revived for those that want to try something else from SV NatDex Ubers, providing a metagame more similar to USUM Ubers but with extra novelty by featuring the additions of Gen 8.

Clauses & Banlist

Endless Battle Clause, HP Percentage Mod, Sleep Clause Mod, Species Clause, OHKO Clause, Evasion Moves Clause, Evasion Abilities Clause, Mega Rayquaza Clause, Dynamax Clause

• Pokemon: Calyrex-Shadow, Mega Rayquaza, Zacian
• Items: Gengarite, Ultranecrozium Z
• Moves: Baton Pass
• Abilities: Moody, Shadow Tag

Council

• Bobsican (Leader)
• Sami (Leader)
• Senhorolho

Watchlist:

• Pokemon: Xerneas, Yveltal
• Items: None
• Moves: None
• Abilities: None

Resources

Challenge Code

/challenge gen8nationaldex @@@ +ND Uber, Mega Rayquaza Clause, !Evasion Abilities Clause, !Evasion Items Clause, +Quick Claw, +King's Rock, +Razor Fang, +Power Construct, +Arena Trap, -Calyrex-Shadow, -Gengarite, -Ultranecrozium Z, -Zacian

Notable differences from USUM Ubers

- Mega Gengar, Shadow Tag, and Ultra Necrozma are banned
- Primal Groudon gains Heat Crash
- Necrozma-DM / Ultra Necrozma gets Dragon Dance
- Mega Mewtwo Y gains Nasty Plot
- Lunala gets Meteor Beam
- Eternatus, Calyrex-I exist
- Terrains (bar Misty) are nerfed by boosting compatible moves by x1.3 over x1.5
- Mega Alakazam gains Nasty Plot
- Kyurem-B gains Dragon Dance and Icicle Spear
- For moves, Scale Shot, Expanding Force, Poltergeist, Body Press, Meteor Beam, Triple Axel, Dual Wingbeat, and Scorching Sands exist
- Item-wise, Heavy-Duty Boots, Utility Umbrella, Throat Spray, Eject Pack exist, pinch berries are nerfed and heal by 1/3 over 1/2
- Rapid Spin now has 50 BP, instead of 20 BP, and boosts Speed by 1 stage

Notable differences from SV ND Ubers

- Teras are dexit'd
- Zacian, Zacian-C, Ultra Necrozma, and Shadow Tag are banned
- Moves like Recover and Roost have 16 PP
- Xerneas and Shedinja are legal
- Primal Groudon doesn't get Spikes
- Rayquaza doesn't get U-turn or Stealth Rock
- Most notable species dexit'd are Chien-Pao, Palkia-O, Chi-Yu, Glimmora, Garganacl, Basculegion-M, Dondozo, Flutter Mane, Ursaluna-B, Gholdengo and Iron Treads
- Loaded Dice is dexit'd
- Alomomola doesn't get Flip Turn
- Intrepid Sword and Dauntless Shield trigger every time the user switches in, rather than once per battle, both Zacian and Zamazenta formes have higher stats
- Zamazenta doesn't get Body Press
- Cresselia has +10 base Def and SpD
- Transistor boosts Electric-type moves by x1.5 instead of x1.3
- Arceus doesn't get Foul Play, Dragon Dance, Bulk Up, Body Press, Power Gem, Dragon Tail, or Taunt, so defensive variants aren't as effective at checking setup, only physical setup is Swords Dance
- Calyrex-I's Glacial Lance has 130 BP instead of 120 BP
- Urshifu-SS's Wicked Blow has 80 BP instead of 75 BP
- Deoxys-A doesn't get Meteor Beam or Expanding Force
- M-Diancie doesn't get Spikes
- Dialga doesn't get Trick
- Eternatus doesn't get Fire Blast
- Ability Patch is more limited, thus some Ability + move combos are unobtainable
- Moody can also boost Evasion and Accuracy
- Grimmsnarl doesn't get Parting Shot

- Set Compendium (Credit to Sami)
- VR Template (Credit to Sami)

Q&A

Does this have a Discord server?
Yes, it is part of the main NatDex Ubers server, join here if you haven't already!

Why is Dynamax not allowed?
Given its well-documented uncompetitive nature even within the identity of Uber metagames, it has been quickbanned, there's no plans to revisit this unless the community heavily supports a reintroduction of it per Ubers tiering policy.

Where can I play this?
Out of the novelty and current development of an userbase, this format does not have a permanent ladder, nor is a directly challengeable format. Instead you can play this by manually direct messaging an user willing to play in Pokemon Showdown the challenge code that's in the resources above. Teambuilding-wise, it's recommended to pick Gen 8 National Dex OU while disregarding Uber illegalities.

 

[Sami]

reserving for sample teams

 

[Sami]

reserving for VR

 

[Sami]

SS NDUbers Speed Tiers

The objective of this resource is to lay out a visual list of all relevant speed tiers in the SS National Dex Ubers metagame. Only viable sets are included; stuff like Modest Deoxys-A isn't listed here. D-Ranks will not be included.

Tier Zero [∞ > x ≥ 500]
​

Speed​	Sprite​	Pokemon​	Base​	Nature​	IVs​	EVs​	±​	Extra Changes​
744​	​	Mega Salamence​	120​	Positive​	31​	252​	+2​
657​	​	Deoxys-A​	150​	Positive​	31​	252​	+1​	-1 Speed on Foe (Icy Wind)
648​	​	Mega Salamence​	120​	Neutral​	31​	252​	+2​
647​	​	Zygarde​	95​	Neutral​	31​	132​	+3​
661​	​	Pheromosa​	151​	Positive​	31​	252​	+1​
634​	​	Rayquaza + Kyurem-B​	95​	Positive​	31​	252​	+2​
612​	​	Primal Groudon + Zekrom​	90​	Positive​	31​	252​	+2​
604​	​	Excadrill​	88​	Positive​	31​	252​	+2​
597​	​	Zygarde-C​	85​	Neutral​	31​	132​	+3​
585​	​	Xerneas​	99​	Neutral​	31​	0​	+3​
578​	​	Rayquaza + Kyurem-B​	95​	Neutral​	31​	252​	+2​
574​	​	Marshadow​	125​	Positive​	31​	252​	+1​	-1 Speed on Foe (Rock Tomb)​
568​	​	Zygarde​	95​	Neutral​	31​	232​	+2​
558​	​	Mega Salamence​	120​	Positive​	31​	252​	+1​
558​	​	Primal Groudon + Zekrom​	90​	Neutral​	31​	252​	+2​
556​	​	Necrozma-DM​	77​	Positive​	31​	252​	+2​
546​	​	Smeargle​	75​	Positive​	31​	252​	+2​
528​	​	Zygarde-C​	85​	Neutral​	31​	232​	+2​
518​	​	Zygarde​	95​	Neutral​	31​	132​	+2​
512​	​	Xerneas​	99​	Neutral​	31​	88​	+2​
508​	​	Mega Salamence​	120​	Neutral​	31​	252​	+1​
506​	​	Necrozma-DM​	77​	Neutral​	31​	252​	+2​
504​	​	Deoxys-S​	180​	Positive​	31​	252​	0​

Tier One [500 > x ≥ 400]
​

Speed​	Sprite​	Pokemon​	Base​	Nature​	IVs​	EVs​	±​	Extra Changes​
490​	​	Primal Groudon​	90​	Neutral​	31​	116​	+2​
489​	​	Xerneas​	99​	Positive​	31​	252​	+1​
478​	​	Zygarde-C​	85​	Neutral​	31​	132​	+2​
478​	​	Yveltal​	99​	Positive​	31​	224​	+1​
475​	​	Rayquaza + Kyurem-B​	95​	Positive​	31​	252​	+1​
468​	​	Xerneas​	99​	Neutral​	31​	0​	+2​
463​	​	Landorus-T​	91​	Positive​	31​	252​	+1​
459​	​	Zekrom​	90​	Positive​	31​	252​	+1​
459​	​	Primal Groudon​	90​	Positive​	31​	252​	+1​	-1 Spe on foe (Rock Tomb)​
453​	​	Excadrill​	88​	Positive​	31​	252​	+1​	Either Rapid Spin or -1 Spe on Foe (Rock Tomb)​
445​	​	Xerneas + Yveltal​	99​	Neutral​	31​	252​	+1​
442​	​	Necrozma-DM​	77​	Neutral​	31​	124​	+2​
441​	​	Pheromosa​	151​	Positive​	31​	252​	0​
438​	​	Deoxys-A​	150​	Positive​	31​	252​	0​
433​	​	Rayquaza+ Kyurem-B​	95​	Neutral​	31​	252​	+1​
426​	​	Zygarde​	95​	Neutral​	31​	232​	+1​
418​	​	Zekrom​	90​	Neutral​	31​	252​	+1​
417​	​	Necrozma-DM​	77​	Positive​	31​	252​	+1​
409​	​	Smeargle​	75​	Positive​	31​	252​	+1​
407​	​	Mega Mewtwo Y​	140​	Positive​	31​	216​	0​

Tier Two [400 > x ≥ 300]
​

Speed​	Sprite​	Pokemon​	Base​	Nature​	IVs​	EVs​	±​	Extra Changes​
396​	​	Zygarde-C​	85​	Neutral​	31​	232​	+1​
394​	​	Eternatus + Mewtwo + Mega Mewtwo X​	130​	Positive​	31​	252​	0​
388​	​	Zygarde​	95​	Neutral​	31​	132​	+1​
385​	​	Eternatus​	130​	Positive​	31​	216​	0​
384​	​	Primal Groudon​	90​	Neutral​	31​	160​	+1​	-1 Speed on Foe (Rock Tomb)​
384​	​	Xerneas​	99​	Neutral​	31​	88​	+1​
383​	​	Marshadow​	125​	Positive​	31​	252​	0​
381​	​	Ribombee​	124​	Positive​	31​	252​	0​
374​	​	Eternatus​	130​	Positive​	31​	176​	0​
372​	​	Necrozma-DM​	77​	Neutral​	31​	236​	+1​
372​	​	Mega Salamence + Arceus​	120​	Positive​	31​	252​	0​
358​	​	Zygarde-C​	85​	Neutral​	31​	132​	+1​
355​	​	Mega Lucario​	115​	Positive​	31​	252​	0​
351​	​	Xerneas​	99​	Neutral​	31​	0​	+1​
341​	​	Mega Diancie​	110​	Positive​	31​	216​	0​
339​	​	Mega Salamence + Arceus​	120​	Neutral​	31​	252​	0​
331​	​	Necrozma-DM​	77​	Neutral​	31​	124​	+1​
327​	​	Eternatus​	130​	Positive​	31​	8​	0​
327​	​	Lunala​	97​	Positive​	31​	252​	0​
326​	​	Xerneas + Yveltal​	99​	Positive​	31​	252​	0​
324​	​	Primal Groudon​	90​	Neutral​	31​	0​	0​	-1 Speed on Foe (Rock Tomb)​
319​	​	Lunala​	97​	Positive​	31​	240​	0​
317​	​	Rayquaza + Kyurem-B​	95​	Positive​	31​	252​	0​
308​	​	Yveltal​	99​	Positive​	31​	184​	0​
307​	​	Arceus + Mega Salamence​	120​	Neutral​	31​	124​	0​
306​	​	Primal Groudon + Primal Kyogre + Zekrom + Dialga + Ho-Oh​	90​	Positive​	31​	252​	0​
302​	​	Excadrill​	88​	Positive​	31​	252​	0​

Tier Three [300 > x ≥ 200]
​

Speed​	Sprite​	Pokemon​	Base​	Nature​	IVs​	EVs​	±​	Extra Changes​
297​	​	Xerneas + Yveltal​	99​	Neutral​	31​	252​	0​
293​	​	Lunala​	97​	Neutral​	31​	252​	0​
289​	​	Rayquaza + Kyurem-B + Zygarde​	95​	Neutral​	31​	252​	0​
284​	​	Zygarde​	95​	Neutral​	31​	232​	0​
279​	​	Primal Groudon + Primal Kyogre + Zekrom + Dialga + Ho-Oh​	90​	Neutral​	31​	252​	0​
278​	​	Necrozma-DM​	77​	Positive​	31​	252​	0​
273​	​	Smeargle​	75​	Positive​	31​	252​	0​
264​	​	Zygarde-C​	85​	Neutral​	31​	232​	0​
259​	​	Zygarde​	95​	Neutral​	31​	132​	0​
256​	​	Primal Groudon​	90​	Neutral​	31​	160​	0​
256​	​	Xerneas​	99​	Neutral​	31​	88​	0​
253​	​	Necrozma-DM​	77​	Neutral​	31​	252​	0​
252​	​	Deoxys-S​	180​	Positive​	31​	252​	0​	Paralyzed​
248​	​	Necrozma-DM​	77​	Neutral​	31​	236​	0​
245​	​	Primal Groudon​	90​	Neutral​	31​	116​	0​
239​	​	Zygarde-C​	85​	Neutral​	31​	132​	0​
234​	​	Xerneas + Yveltal​	99​	Neutral​	31​	0​	0​
230​	​	Lunala​	99​	Neutral​	31​	0​	0​
226​	​	Zygarde​	95​	Neutral​	31​	0​	0​
221​	​	Necrozma-DM​	77​	Neutral​	31​	124​	0​
220​	​	Pheromosa​	151​	Positive​	31​	252​	0​	Paralyzed​
219​	​	Ho-Oh + Giratina-O​	90​	Neutral​	31​	12​	0​
219​	​	Deoxys-A​	150​	Positive​	31​	252​	0​	Paralyzed​
218​	​	Landorus-T​	91​	Neutral​	31​	0​	0​
218​	​	Calyrex-I​	50​	Positive​	31​	252​	0​
216​	​	Primal Groudon + Primal Kyogre + Zekrom + Dialga + Ho-Oh + Giratina + Giratina-O​	90​	Neutral​	31​	0​	0​
211​	​	Rayquaza​	95​	Positive​	31​	252​	-1​
208​	​	Mega Mewtwo Y​	140​	Positive​	31​	252​	0​	Paralyzed​
206​	​	Zygarde-C​	85​	Neutral​	31​	0​	0​

Tier Four [200 > x ≥ 100]
​

Speed​	Sprite​	Pokemon​	Base​	Nature​	IVs​	EVs​	±​	Extra Changes​
198​	​	Necrozma-DM​	77​	Neutral​	31​	32​	0​
197​	​	Eternatus + Mewtwo + Mega Mewtwo Y​	130​	Positive​	31​	252​	0​	Paralyzed​
194​	​	Primal Groudon​	90​	Negative​	31​	0​	0​
191​	​	Marshadow​	125​	Positive​	31​	252​	0​	Paralyzed​
190​	​	Necrozma-DM​	77​	Neutral​	31​	0​	0​
186​	​	Mega Salamence + Arceus​	120​	Positive​	31​	252​	0​	Paralyzed​
186​	​	Mega Scizor​	75​	Neutral​	31​	0​	0​
169​	​	Mega Salamence + Arceus​	120​	Neutral​	31​	252​	0​	Paralyzed​
166​	​	Magearna​	65​	Neutral​	31​	0​	0​
163​	​	Xerneas + Yveltal​	99​	Positive​	31​	252​	0​	Paralyzed​
161​	​	Lunala​	97​	Positive​	31​	252​	0​	Paralyzed​
158​	​	Rayquaza + Kyurem-B​	95​	Positive​	31​	252​	0​	Paralyzed​
157​	​	Cresselia​	85​	Negative​	0​	0​	0​
156​	​	Grimmsnarl​	60​	Neutral​	31​	0​	0​
153​	​	Primal Groudon + Primal Kyogre + Dialga + Ho-Oh​	90​	Positive​	31​	252​	0​	Paralyzed​
146​	​	Blissey​	55​	Neutral​	31​	0​	0​
143​	​	Necrozma-DM​	77​	Negative​	0​	0​	0​
139​	​	Primal Groudon + Primal Kyogre + Dialga + Ho-Oh​	90​	Neutral​	31​	252​	0​	Paralyzed​
139​	​	Necrozma-DM​	77​	Positive​	31​	252​	0​	Paralyzed​
136​	​	Chansey + Calyrex-I​	50​	Neutral​	31​	0​	0​
121​	​	Magearna​	65​	Negative​	0​	0​	0​
113​	​	Zygarde​	95​	Neutral​	31​	0​	0​	Paralyzed​
108​	​	Primal Groudon + Primal Kyogre + Dialga + Ho-Oh + Giratina-O + Giratina​	90​	Neutral​	31​	0​	0​	Paralyzed​
103​	​	Zygarde-C​	85​	Neutral​	31​	0​	0​	Paralyzed​

Tier Five [100 > x ≥ 0]
​

Speed​	Sprite​	Pokemon​	Base​	Nature​	IVs​	EVs​	±​	Extra Changes​
94​	​	Chansey + Calyrex-I​	50​	Negative​	0​	0​	0​
90​	​	Ditto​	48​	Negative​	0​	0​	0​	Untransformed​
76​	​	Ferrothorn​	20​	Neutral​	31​	0​	0​
56​	​	Hatterene​	29​	Negative​	0​	0​	0​
46​	​	Shuckle​	5​	Neutral​	31​	0​	0​
40​	​	Ferrothorn​	20​	Negative​	0​	0​	0​

​

 

[Runo]

https://pokepast.es/c9c4914789ee34a2

Stall seems viable, which is a nice change of pace from Gen 9 ND Ubers. Built this like last week or so and it's been my most consistent team so far. Ran Mega Sableye + Double Defog here, one of the foggers being Arceus-Ground so that I can sustain myself against Primal Groudon's advances. Confide Rocks Blissey PP stalls a large portion of the special attackers in the tier, notable Kyogre-Primal and the Calm Mind Arceus forms. Lugia is the first anti-setup mon and the main Rayquaza/Mega Salamence check on the team. Toxapex combined with Blissey helps pressure stall T-killer Eternatus. Blissey + Ho-oh keep Xerneas in line. Arceus-Ground is the main Zygarde check on the team. Well played Swords Dance Arceus-Ground with a Zmove probably packs this up but idk.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldex-2214306347-4cdnjqkqwlq2ud41qjmzxbge6bmekimpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldex-2218839981-i7fiebz3oq0582b2h6hg9rml7p5zg4vpw

I don't really like anything else about this tier unfort, I think its boring and Calyrex-S & Zacian should be retested at the very least. Shadow Tag is annoying but that's all it is. Same with Necrozma-Ultra I think.

 

[Bobsican]

Okay, there was quite some talk in the Discord server about some topics, so I think it'd be pertinent to bring them up here to ease awareness:

There have been concerns lately on the legitimatecy for Calyrex-S being quickbanned, namely as it got quickbanned a few days after the metagame was even started. For starters I'd want to clarify that this was in an earlier era back when this wasn't overlooked by the ND Ubers tier leaders (I wasn't even a council member at the time), but even so the little practice and historical precedent still doesn't speak into its favor.

Calyrex-S does not add anything positive to the metagame beyond making every single team having to run multiple checks to it and hope they work, creating a similar dynamic to what Xerneas did in SV ND Ubers, which I'm not a fan of.

Ultimately, because of this controversy, and Ubers tiering policy favoring what the userbase demands, Calyrex-S may be subject to being tested sometime soon to ensure the integrity of the userbase in the near future, but it'd be worth noting that unlike SS Ubers, in here Calyrex-S does get access to Z-Moves to play around its checks, allowing it to OHKO Yveltal and Arceus-Dark with +2 Draining Kiss, which are the most viable means of counterplay the metagame has to offer.

 

[cruisinconnor]

What's the limit with a leppa berry and recycle and how does that effect endless battle clause?

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldexubers-2225334384-jhxdacn4o1lggmjvgs0eay9svlqgj95pw

 

[Runo]

What's the limit with a leppa berry and recycle and how does that effect endless battle clause?

its limitless unless the leppa berry is removed by an external force (knock off, trick, thief, covet, etc). It has no impact on endless battle clause since it is essentially a PP stall strat, ergo the goal is to waste all of the opponents pp until they struggle to death, as opposed to a strat that makes the game go on endlessly. Which is done by making sure that its impossible for both you and the opponent to faint.

 

[bumboclaat]

S+
S
S-
A+
A
A-
B+

Viable but idk: :

Probably viable, but C rank:

Haven't really played much, but with a bit of building the above is a rough personal VR so far. I'm aware that some people quite strongly want Zacian-H and Calyrex-S unbanned, that is for tier leadership and them to figure out. I'm not sure how much I enjoy this metagame so far with my minimal experience and if I'll continue past this tournament. I already think the metagame is too offensive and having to account for what is legal already defensively isn't much fun to begin with. Adding those back in would definitely mean I'm out, but thats ok, not every meta is for everyone. The above VR isn't ordered within the subranks and I probably forgot some stuff. I didn't spend a ton of time on it, but that is my early meta impression at least.

The biggest thing holding me back is that there is a fair amount of offensive powercreep compared to USM without some of the defensive powercreep of SV, mostly Taunt Arceus. Other stuff matters as well, for example, Eternatus not having Fire Blast means Ultra Necrozma doesn't really have much risk in setting up. Balance feels incredibly limited structure wise solely because of Arceus lacking Taunt which leads to me feeling the need to include more disruption than feels healthy during the teambuilding process.

Its on the list for a reason and yeah DD is kinda stupid. All its checks get blown up by Xerneas and Arceus not having Foul Play is a pretty significant departure as well as Marshadow not having access to Tera so bulkier sets are a lot safer to load. Eternatus not having Fire Blast also means it sets up on it a lot more freely. Its a well in a vaccum Ultra Necrozma is ok, dealing with it and friends is maybe a little much. It is on the watchlist for a reason.

It is just as bullshit as in any other meta. Non Geomancy sets are healthy and cool of course, but Geomancy is and always has been silly. No bikes so it can run modest and make Primal Groudon a meh Xerneas check or a passable Xerneas check that loses to the other stuff it is supposed to check. I'm not really a fan of defensive Necrozma-DM in this metagame for similar reasons to SVNDUbers though it is at least alright here. Add this to the watchlist and either this or Ultra Necrozma should be the first suspect if Caly-S/Zacian-H are not being tested back in.

If this metagame is popular enough to develop properly this will eventually be banworthy. Arceus formes not having Taunt makes them trappable. That more than makes up for the lack of tera to trap Primal Groudon. It traps way too much but the metagame is still in its infancy and it'll become an issue down the road as one where it isn't broken is probably unhealthily offensive. Its funny how Ultra Necrozma being the one HO mon it traps in SVNDUbers ends up being quite important here. Keep it on the watchlist for a long time.

Its always had really good role compression, but what it offers isn't needed in SVNDUbers. Heart Swap + Cleric + Dark/Fairy/Psychic resist + pivoting is amazing. Normalium-Z Pain Split is probably usable as well, but I havn't tried that. The grounds are managable defensively or offensively and a million times easier to handle than the stuff you're putting Magearna on the team for.

Spikes are great. Soft checking Zygarde + Ultra Necrozma and hard checking Arceus-Ground + Primal Kyogre is great. The last moveslot is pretty flexible but I like Knock off or Thunder Wave. Gyro Ball works ig, but given this gets deleted by +2 Focus Blast I don't think it is worth it.

Does the same shit its always done, but here the most annoying offensive shit to handle defensively is weak one of Marshadow's STABs which is great. HO is really powerful and thankfully Arceus doesn't get DD.

It is whelming. It is still good, but no tera + Arceus not having taunt and therefore easily fitting Ice Beam and/or Refresh isn't great. No Tera Ground so you actually have to work to do something with DD Zygarde (not killing Marshadow at +1 blows) although Arceus formes not having Taunt helps a bit.

Quite silly on paper at least v most non HO. Originally had it A+, but discussing some stuff with Sami made me move it down to A. Speed Tier + Coverage + Utility moves if desired makes it a very strong breaker. Dark-types are pretty easy to handle offensively or defensively, but CB Marsh will always be an issue. Kind of hard to see this falling below A-.

Toxic Spikes are really good. Offensive sets are probably still decent, but no Fire Blast really stings. Meteor Beam + Recover + Dynammax Cannon + Sludge Bomb is probably broken with Gothitelle support. Meteor Beam + Stabs + T Spikes seems like it could be good on HO. Toxic + Toxic Spikes + Dragon Tail is something I like with Magearna.

Does the same stuff it does in non SVNDUbers tiers. Ground is decent offensively and defensively + it has room for Roar/Ice Beam. No Taunt or DD kinda sucks for it. Toxic + Refresh or Roar seems like a good wincon for fatter teams.

Feels slightly better than a good anti-meta pick. It gets blown up a lot, but Dark is a very good defensive typing in this metagame. Calm Mind + Refresh has been a nice wincon. It is goated and dogshit at the same time. Calm Mind + Roar or Wisp+ SpD Gothitelle to take out Eternatus is probably quite good.

HO meta where tera doesn't exist = Ditto good. Its worse v Ekiller, but appreciates it v everything else. Ultra Necrozma / Xerneas needing some chip to revenge kill isn't ideal, but you'll probably want at least decent defensive checks with Ditto anyways. My gut feeling is that ditto will fluctuate between B and A- unless we get a metagame focused mostly around balance which I'm skepitcal of.

Mostly for defensive sets with either Roar or Defog. Offensive sets are probably alright as well, but I've wanted to tap into the defensive traits. The movepool is pretty flexible and it pairs really well with Magearna and appreciates Heal Bell more than most.

This is my hot take. Band on paper is a really good breaker with just STABs + U-turn. Blackglasses might be decent as well. Magearna switches into all the Fairy-types, but Primal Groudon and Necrozma-DM work as well. Not really sure what speed tier people have for their Arceus formes, but generally 90+ speed is very good for a wallbreaker and Magearna at least heavily competing with Arceus-Fairy for the defensive Fairy-type niche is good for Urshifu.

Someone will find a way to make psyspam broken with Ultra Necrozma doesn't go. Was talking with Sami about Mega Zam fitting on that playstyle as well. I think Mega Zam is a bit of a sleeper pick in general, but that may be hot air.

I like defensive and LO, not the biggest fan of Choice Scarf. A powerful Sucker Punch + Taunt with a decent speed stat is quite nice. Knock is definitely good on LO as well.

 

[Sami]

Congratulations to Zrp200 for winning the Gen 8 NDUbers Kickoff Tournament! It was fun hosting it and it was fun seeing all the games take place, especially coming near the finals. Anyways, I'm sure you all know about the survey that's been put out for the tier, so I figured I should give out my opinion on the tier thus far, as well as the unused teams I had in the tournament, especially since (due to bad timing) I wasn't able to use them.

On a scale of 1 to 10, how enjoyable do you find the current metagame? (7)
This tier is fun, don't get me wrong, I've had fun playing and building for it these past few months, and I wouldn't say this tier is too difficult to enjoy, especially if you're familiar with Gen 9 NDUbers or USUM Ubers or even Gen 8 NDAG. Putting it in 5 would imply I find it just okay which isn't accurate, but I wouldn't say this is the best tier ever either (aka 10) since building for this tier usually pulls towards offense, whether that be with Xerneas or Ultra Necrozma, both of which I'll get to. This pulls down the tier a bit for me, as I do like building fat teams occasionally, but not enough for me to start disliking the tier, which screams a 7 to me.

On a scale of 1 to 10, how competitively and balanced do you find the current metagame? (7)
Similar to the enjoyability of the tier, there isn't anything super major that holds this tier back from being competitive, and the tier is rather balanced as far as I know, even if the kickoff tournament has had a lot of hax moments. Again, there are a few strong Pokemon here and there, but so far they haven't been insanely strong IMO.

On a scale of 1 to 10, with 1 being no tiering action, and 10 being immediate tiering action, how do you feel about Ultra Necrozma? (3)
Ultra Necrozma is an interesting Pokemon. But I don't think its overpowered personally. Arceus-Dark and Yveltal still do great jobs keeping it from getting out of hand, and these are still the two main checks in Gen 9 NDUbers, so even without Tera Dark Arceus-Fairy, Alomomola or sometimes Ho-Oh, Ultra Necrozma doesn't feel like it would get too out of hand, only near the late-game where it naturally shines anyways like most other setup sweepers. There's also the oppurtunity cost for HO teams to not have a very sturdy Xerneas answer, since Ultra Necrozma as NDM still isn't very tanky, especially if its taking hazard damage.

On a scale of 1 to 10, with 1 being no tiering action, and 10 being immediate tiering action, how do you feel about Xerneas? (4)
Again, similarly to Ultra Necrozma, not being able to Terastalize does hurt against Xerneas, but Ho-Oh, NDM, Primal Groudon and Ferrothorn are still great roadblocks for it trying to sweep. Of course it can bullshit with Substitute or Ingrain, but there's a major 4MSS argument against that, since it then has no Focus Blast to hit Ferrothorn or Primal Groudon, or if it does run Focus Blast, no Substitute to abuse NDM harder. I put it slightly above Ultra Necrozma mostly because its harder to actually revenge kill outside of dedicated Pokemon like Mega Scizor, but the stronger defensive switch-ins compared to Arceus-Dark and Yveltal doesn't let Xerneas get too far ahead IMO.

On a scale of 1 to 10, with 1 being no tiering action, and 10 being immediate tiering action, how do you feel about Shadow Tag? (1)
Gothitelle was used twice in the entire tournament, and a 0% winrate is definitely not helping her cause. Even outside of the tournament, I rarely see her be used in Discord friendlies. Hypothetically, Shadow Tag could be a big issue regarding the need to use Ho-Oh for Xerneas, but the lack of real-world success makes me pretty sceptical.

On a scale of 1 to 10, with 1 being a total no, and 10 being a total yes, should the council suspect back into the metagame Calyrex-S? (1)
I don't see the vision. Let me focus more on the hypothetical "positives" of Calyrex-S and explain why I disagree, more than focusing on the absurd wallbreaking, sweeping and psychological damage this Pokemon can do with its movepool and access to Z-Moves. One of the arguments I see pop up is that Calyrex-S would be useful for revenge-killing faster threats like Ultra Necrozma or Xerneas with a Choice Scarf. However, in practice it's basically JUST Ultra Necrozma since Psyshock never kills Xerneas unless its taken notable chip damage. All this really does is centralise the tier around Scarf Calyrex-S and the two others, which makes this metagame very similar to Gen 9 Ubers pre-Miraidon ban, which isn't the best metagame. Another argument I've seen is that some Pokemon can check it. Cool! Which Pokemon? Oh... it's Tyranitar and Zarude. Both of these suck. If you don't believe me, one was brought to the tournament and is sitting at a 0% winrate. Again, needing these Pokemon to check Calyrex-S is like trying to check Koraidon with Dachsbun; even if its a perfect check, they do very little outside of beating that specific Pokemon, and are prone to losing to playstyles where that Pokemon isn't present, such as Stall. By the way, they're far from perfect checks. Zarude gets shredded by Buginium Z no doubt about that. Tyranitar has no healing, also gets nuked by Buginium Z, is pretty much setup fodder for the number one Pokemon in the tier, and is quite awkward to build around. These are not good arguments. Calyrex-S even without Terastalization is inherently broken simply because it is minmaxxed as hell, including everything down to its moves, stats, ability and synergy with others.

On a scale of 1 to 10, with 1 being a total no, and 10 being a total yes, should the council suspect back into the metagame Zacian? (5)
Although I heavily dislike Calyrex-S, Zacian is a bit more manageable. Choice Scarf sets are mostly healthy since they have very reliable answers in Primal Groudon, Ho-Oh and NDM, while they still do the job of revenge-killing Xerneas and Ultra Necrozma. I've seen a lot of debate surrounding Choice Band, but this set is extremely prediction reliant, and is easily punished by Primal Groudon, Rocky Helmet NDM, Ferrothorn and even Ho-Oh to an extent. This set can also be a liability into HO teams since it can give Pokemon free setup depending what it gets locked into, and these are Pokemon it may not be able to outspeed afterwards. It's lack of pivoting makes this even worse, and as far as I know, Choice Band Zacian does pretty mediocre into Fat Balance teams, so I wouldn't exactly call it game-breaking. Another set people have been worried about is the Swords Dance Groundium Z set using Dig. While this looks intimidating at first, it is ALSO extremely prediction reliant. It's similar to Dragonium Z Zekrom in Gen 9 NDUbers IMO, they both need to land a specific Z-Move against a specific foe (Primal Groudon) otherwise their sweeping attempt is almost cut to a halt. Sure, you can try to hit the Pokemon in question without the Z-Move (hitting Primal Groudon with Outrage or Dig), but all it takes is for the opponent to switch back into their Z-Move switch in (Arceus-Fairy or Ho-Oh) and punish you that way (Arceus-Fairy clicks Judgment against the locked Zekrom, Ho-Oh clicks Sacred Fire against the Dig-locked Zacian as it comes back up). There's even the small niche of running Earthquake Primal Groudon to always beat Zacian if you dodge the Z-Move since it always kills if Zacian goes for another Dig, especially since running Earthquake over Precipice Blades doesn't make any major calc differences AFAIK. Overall, Zacian is a bit of a paper mon, and I don't mean its frail, just that on paper it looks unstoppable, but in-game, it's more abusable and less threatening than it may seem.

Moving on from that, let's get into some heat, some teams I wanted to bring but unfortunately didn't because I'm stupid and was forced to play on mobile:

Z-Move Xerneas with Dual Screens
Simple HO team with Z-Move Xerneas. Primal Groudon and Arceus-Ground remove bulky Steel and Poison-types for Xerneas while Mega Salamence and Arceus-Ground remove Primal Groudon. Eternatus and Facade Mega Salamence are here to bully Ho-Oh; these four are all here to enable a position where Xerneas can sweep by pressuring its would-be checks offensively and defensively to an extent. Thunder Wave Grimmsnarl is also pretty useful to slow down opposing setup attackers like NDM and Xerneas.

Swords Dance Rayquaza Sticky Webs HO
Mostly just a typical Sticky Webs team. I wanted to go Swords Dance on Rayquaza to abuse Webs harder, but Scale Shot is useful here for against Giratina/-O and bulky Rock-types I suppose. The rest is what you'd normally see on a Sticky Web team, slightly slow super offensive Pokemon like Primal Kyogre, Ultra Necrozma and I guess Mega Mewtwo Y.

Trick Room
Guys I'm not converting to Trick Room I promise. But I am shocked to see barely any Trick Room during the tournament. You guys do realise Glacial Lance was 10 BP stronger, Cresselia was bulkier AND there is no Tera Water Zygarde... right? Should be noted that without Tera Melmetal actually sucks, unless maybe that's why you guys weren't using it...

Landorus-I Offense
Definitely the most experimental on the list of teams, but Landorus does look like a solid wallbreaker, even if his speed is a bit lacking - I still won't use him on Sticky Webs that just looks mid. Anyways, Xerneas in particular loves Landorus-I so there's that. Another Pokemon I saw a distinct lack of; Giratina-O. Sure, Physical sets aren't the best, but Special is far from unusable, and if there was a heavy focus on both hazard removal, hazard immunity and a Primal Groudon check? Those fit slots for Giratina-O perfectly! Anyways, this team isn't the best, it's probably pretty bad I haven't tested it very much, but its still something cool nonetheless.

Ghost Spam Balance
If you guys want Calyrex-S so badly, why not use Lunala for the time being? I don't think its gotten worse compared to Gen 9 NDUbers, especially since it has the capability to trade with a LOT of stuff in the tier, including Xerneas and Ultra Necrozma; Marshadow obviously adds the Ghost-Spam part while hitting the Dark-types like CM Arceus-Dark, while the rest of the team is a nice sturdy backbone into threats like Yveltal, Giratina-O and Ho-Oh, three Pokemon the first two might not like very much.

Arceus-Poison Fat Balance
Arceus-Poison may almost be setup fodder for Ultra Necrozma but it is a very solid Xerneas check for the tier, giving Primal Groudon and NDM some breathing room to run other sets or check other things, such as Primal Kyogre or Eternatus. It is also a pretty nice Defog user since it isn't hurt by Toxic Spikes or the one setting them much either.

This tier is fun. I'm liking it so far and I hope you guys are too. Shoutout to offonoff for running Darmanitan-G in his tour game, I approve.
Also, there was a LOT of Arceus-Ground usage in the tournament, maybe try out Arceus-Water or Arceus-Fairy a bit more? Neither of them look bad IMO.

 

[bumboclaat]

Enjoyability [5] - There being a fair bit of offensive powercreep without the defensive powercreep prevents me from enjoying the metagame as much as I should. No Taunt on Arceus formes is probably the biggest one.

Competitiveness [6] - It seems like the better player will win more often, so it could be higher ig.

[5] - Either ban this or Xerneas. It is already annoying in SV where tera provides more options for handling it defensively. It is a massive pain in the builder and slightly less so in game. Would have voted higher, but realized I'm not currently invested in this meta and likely won't be if things are retested in before being banned.

[6] - More of a consequential ban and it has runoff effects like Ultra Necrozma losing most of its incentive to run Sunsteel Strike which would make Arceus-Fairy a soft check at times. Yeah it has 4MSS and no tera, but the mon is still stupid and way too punishing for a single mistake or miss.

[7] - The only reason it isn't stupidly broken is because the metagame is still new and we havn't learned how to abuse it yet.

[3] - Ban Xerneas before bringing this back. Dealing with this on HO with Xerneas is going to be incredibly stupid. It is a more honest mon than Xerneas and I'd rather the metagame centralize offensively around Zacian than Xerneas even if I would rather not have either.

[1] - I'm out if this is unbanned. Not really much more to it than that.

---

Another Pokemon I saw a distinct lack of; Giratina-O. Sure, Physical sets aren't the best, but Special is far from unusable, and if there was a heavy focus on both hazard removal, hazard immunity and a Primal Groudon check?

Speaking personally, I don't like using Giratina-O much outside of using it with Mola in SV, but it is a small sample size. The lack of tera really hurts it due to all of those weaknesses despite a lot of positive traits. If this metagame continues to develop I wouldn't be shocked to see it somewhere in A- or B+, maybe A if things work out well. It is a mon which requires a lot of fine tuning which I'm not sure people want to or are willing to invest time in atm. Personally I had an afternoon of motivation to make some teams and that is where all the teams I made came from.

This tier is fun. I'm liking it so far and I hope you guys are too. Shoutout to offonoff for running Darmanitan-G in his tour game, I approve.
Also, there was a LOT of Arceus-Ground usage in the tournament, maybe try out Arceus-Water or Arceus-Fairy a bit more? Neither of them look bad IMO.

How offensively tilted the metagame is makes it quite difficult to stray away from Arceus-Ground or Arceus-Dark on any non HO team. Arceus-Ground easily fits Roar/ Ice Beam and immediately threatens Primal Groudon while also threatening Necrozma-DM. Arceus-Dark has the Necrozma-DM and Unecro matchup, but is also nice into Yveltal lacking Taunt and is one of it not the best CM Arceus wincons. I think Arceus-Fairy would have potential to be on that tier if defensive Necrozma-DM wasn't real. Probably is broken in some Primal Groudon / Ho-Oh or Yveltal / Arceus-Fairy / Gothitelle / Marshadow or Ditto / Coil Zygarde or Toxic Spikes Eternatus structure or something similar.

The other formes are yeah they're probably ok, but I'm not invested in the metagame or personally interested enough to experiment with them, but I'd imagine more or less the same list is viable as in SV probably with Poison added so long as Xerneas is here. That was something I did think about building.

Guys I'm not converting to Trick Room I promise. But I am shocked to see barely any Trick Room during the tournament. You guys do realise Glacial Lance was 10 BP stronger, Cresselia was bulkier AND there is no Tera Water Zygarde... right? Should be noted that without Tera Melmetal actually sucks, unless maybe that's why you guys weren't using it...

I did build a (bad) Caly-I team, but I don't really see how this changes things as Tera Ice plays a pretty big role in what makes TR viable in SV. That is a much bigger damage boost than the nerf.

If you guys want Calyrex-S so badly, why not use Lunala for the time being?

I'm not sure where it would go in the VR, but yeah Lunala is decent, and unlike in SV defensive sets are actually pretty good. Fills the need for a phaser, great blanket check to most things, and pairs pretty well with Magearna.

 

[Bobsican]

General comments for what came up as notable going by the recent survey:

: Shadow Tag has been a rising concern unlike in Gen 9 ND Ubers, and the reason can be attributed to trapping having less counterplay, more specifically Arceus formes not having Taunt results that defensive cores relying on them can be easily broken by Gothitelle, which isn't helped either by there being more wallbreakers of note that I'll be covering in a bit.

: The deer may be unable to Terastallize here, but still heavily encourages at least two defensive checks for teams that aren't offense, in particular resulting in a lot of Primal Groudons being way more specially defensive than normal, further implying its centralization. Geomancy sets are strong and can easily heavily punish a loss of momentum, and Xerneas's wide coverage still lets it play around a good portion of the metagame, especially if it gets lucky with a Thunder paralysis to prevent Ho-Oh from phazing it, and so while not as strong as in Gen 9, it's still a really strong Pokemon that can limit teambuilding.

: Getting complaints as is in USUM Ubers, Ultra Necrozma here gains Dragon Dance while the checks in Gen 9 like Foul Play Arceus, Flip Turn Alomomola, and Tera Dark Pokemon having yet to even exist, in turn resulting with a powerful sweeper that can easily setup and threaten a sweep with very minimal counterplay, giving almost a Gen 8 Calyrex-S vibe by almost demanding every non-offense team to have a Yveltal or Arceus-Dark. Physically bulky Pokemon like Zygarde and Lunala could be appealing checks if the former wasn't vulnerable to +1 Light That Burns the Sky OHKOing it, while the latter relies on Shadow Shield and thus is unreliable mid-game by being worn down at all by attacks it checks of other foes or entry hazards.

Interestingly the demand for a Zacian or Calyrex-S suspect in practice was surprisingly low, not that it's a bad thing as both are well documented to be really powerful and can easily be argued to centralize the metagame a bit too much.