Proposal Gems in BW OU

[Vulpix03]

The above was the slate for the initial gems test and subsequent retest in 2022. Volcarona and Cloyster were the main beneficiaries of gems, and these two pokemon being problematic is what sparked the gems discussion in the first place. Instead of looking at Volc/Cloy alone, however, gems were targeted due to the then recent discovery that multi hit attacks such as icicle spear and bullet seed had every hit boosted. This was then used to argue that gems pushed pokemon such as Cloyster and Breloom over the edge. Other pokemon such as Latios, Scizor, etc were also mentioned in the thread, but they were deemed more "annoying" and not actually broken.

Survey

^Survey here. 30 players voted on the survey. 7/30 voted for 0 tiering action. Out of the 23 that voted for tiering action, 9 of them voted to ban the pokemon and not gems. This means that 16/30 people voted against banning gems on the survey. The subsequent suspect vote was also very close and did not have the option to ladder for reqs. The format was also suspect, at best.


Since then, Cloyster has gone on to be banned, and as MDragon said in the previous thread, Volcarona had been a bw staple for years and would usually hold a gem and no one complained. Given the fact that the main abuser of gems is banned, I would like to propose a gems retest. I don't believe "annoying" or "hard to build" are valid reasons to ban a generation's core item. Tera and zmoves exist in newer gens and people have adapted and thrived in those metas. The main difference between gems and those two mechanics is that gems are not limited to one use, so limiting the number of gems a team can have is definitely a route that can be taken. *IF* Volcarona or Breloom end up being broken in a gems meta, then they should be looked at as individual pokemon. We didn't ban tera just to save Roaring Moon!

To go on a bit of a subjective tangent, when I got into smogon in 2017/18 bw was one of the most loved metagames. Since then it has become on of the least played ou metas. Banning gems took away part of bw's identity, and I don't believe they were broken to begin with. There are other changes to propose, such as chlorophyll, however I think gems are a good starting point discussion.

 

[Finchinator]

I don’t want gems back personally. I will not shut down discussion because the whole playerbase should voice their thoughts, but I find a lot of the information in the OP to be dated or incomplete.

On gems: They made team construction and consistency harder to come by without being forced to use fairly standard, fallback options. We have a more diverse tier than ever aside from Rain taking a hit. Offense is good and seeing more variety, but by no means overbearing. Standard old sands are punished a ton — Chople Tyranitar bog standard is still usable, but exploits of these teams are no longer seen as niche or fringe. At a minimum, Volcarona would need to be banned if we added back gems and this isn’t even getting into the extra strain certain Dragon types would put on the tier as counterplay is now easily bypassed.

As for the OP…

To go on a bit of a subjective tangent, when I got into smogon in 2017/18 bw was one of the most loved metagames. Since then it has become on of the least played ou metas

This is definitely just a subjective tangent. The metagame back then was a mess with trapping abilities and Sand Rush Excadrill among all other things. The tier now is much better off than it was then and has far fewer competitive non-starters.

Volcarona and Cloyster were the main beneficiaries of gems, and these two pokemon being problematic is what sparked the gems discussion in the first place.

Sure, but they weren’t the only ones. Stuff like Latios, Dragonite, and Garchomp have different counterplay profiles altogether. This isn’t to mention plenty of other things.

Tera and zmoves exist in newer gens and people have adapted and thrived in those metas.

Finally, I want to put an end to this false equivalency before anyone else tries to. There’s so much difference between these and the weight of tiering them.

 

[leoperi]

Imo only way i could see gems back is banning specific gems bc idt all of them were broken though some would just argue to ban the mon at that point .

Edit: yeah sry just i realized doesnt matter how good or bad the mon is there will always be something to abuse any gem

 

[Monai]

View attachment 732204

The above was the slate for the initial gems test and subsequent retest in 2022. Volcarona and Cloyster were the main beneficiaries of gems, and these two pokemon being problematic is what sparked the gems discussion in the first place. Instead of looking at Volc/Cloy alone, however, gems were targeted due to the then recent discovery that multi hit attacks such as icicle spear and bullet seed had every hit boosted. This was then used to argue that gems pushed pokemon such as Cloyster and Breloom over the edge. Other pokemon such as Latios, Scizor, etc were also mentioned in the thread, but they were deemed more "annoying" and not actually broken.

Survey

View attachment 732217

^ A relatively close vote considering the ban threshold is 60%. Also concerning that only 23 people voted on the poll. Poll here.


Since then, Cloyster has gone on to be banned, and as MDragon said in the previous thread, Volcarona had been a bw staple for years and would usually hold a gem and no one complained. Given the fact that the main abuser of gems is banned, I would like to propose a gems retest. I don't believe "annoying" or "hard to build" are valid reasons to ban a generation's core item. Tera and zmoves exist in newer gens and people have adapted and thrived in those metas. The main difference between gems and those two mechanics is that gems are not limited to one use, so limiting the number of gems a team can have is definitely a route that can be taken. *IF* Volcarona or Breloom end up being broken in a gems meta, then they should be looked at as individual pokemon. We didn't ban tera just to save Roaring Moon!

To go on a bit of a subjective tangent, when I got into smogon in 2017/18 bw was one of the most loved metagames. Since then it has become on of the least played ou metas. Banning gems took away part of bw's identity, and I don't believe they were broken to begin with. There are other changes to propose, such as chlorophyll, however I think gems are a good starting point discussion.

While I can't speak for older states of the metagame, I can confidently say gems were absurdly broken. Dragon Gen Latios wasn't "annoying," it was downright broken and forced teams to sack a Pokemon to consume the gem before sending Tyranitar into hazards and a -1 Latios; essentially a 2-for-1 trade. In addition to known virtually unwallable Gem users like Volcarona, Breloom, Latios, and Cloyster, the existence of more niche, yet no less dangerous, Gem users such as Dragonite, Terrakion, Keldeo, and Thundurus-T compounded the already suffocating teambuilding constraints. I agree wholeheartedly that the suspect from a couple of years ago was set up in the worst way possible, and would be willing to see a gem resuspect to make up for that, I would without hesitation vote to ban them again.

 

[Finchinator]

Imo only way i could see gems back is banning specific gems bc idt all of them were broken though some would just argue to ban the mon at that point .

This would never happen. We aren’t just going to ban Dragon Gem or Ice Gem — it would be all or nothing.

Handpicking here is a non-starter for both logistical and tiering reasons.

 

[MeEsSm]

I wasn't around for gems meta so feel free to completely disregard what I say, but from engaging with BW OU players almost daily for the last year or so the common sentiment seems to be that BW OU is in a great place right now and the playerbase is very happy with how things are. I feel like gems re-entering the tier would be extremely destabilising and add more variance than we probably want currently.

I'm all for suspecting things, and would support a test- I would definitely be voting ban though, and I'm sure a lot of others in touch with the tier feel the same way.

Also, not sure if this is true or not, but were gems even as optimised as they could have been when they were available? Feels as though there's still a lot of combinations which had yet to be discovered which could further destabilise things.

Given how offensive the tier is, having something get nuked by another thing which it's supposed to be checking kind of feels bad. Gems not proccing on tect or miss also makes it a lot less punishable too.

 

[peng]

Agreeing with the above. Cloyster was certainly the most polarising Gem abuser but the reason to tackle it went far beyond just Cloyster. CM Dragon Latios, Agility Ice Thundurus, all the set-up dragons, Breloom, and obviously Volcarona were all absurd too and I think we didnt even scratch the surface of what was truly max abusal.

I’m always in support of suspecting stuff if its backed by the community, so lets include it in the next poll? But I think BW OU is actually really good currently, so we should be hesitant about reintroducing banned elements. The grass may not be greener.

 

[dice]

I find Gems to be an absurd mechanic tantamount to Z-moves that enables offensive moves and breakers so readily. Garchomp, Dragonite, Volcarona, Breloom, Latios, Keldeo, etc. feel violently oppressive. They offer either sheer power or a gimmicky surprise and morph the metagame to be even more offensive, dynamic, and swingy than it already is.

This has been rehashed several times. I am thankful for the lessons that newer generations and years of experience teach us. I don’t believe that reintroducing this mechanic is for the good of the tier. While I recognize BW’s failings in its tiering history, this decision was for the best.