Flamethrower VS Lava Plume

Turismo2029

95 base power VS 80 base power.

Thing is, Lava Plume has a 20% *higher* chance of inflicting burn status, so it shouldn't be shrugged off so quickly.
Meaning it has a 30% chance of inflicting burn, which is pretty good if you ask me, for only a little less power.

I know I've made a topic similar to this regarding Discharge and Thunderbolt, and the conclusion was basically TBolt on most things, however the more bulky pokemon were better suited to Discharge.

Reckon this is the same for FT vs LP?

I'm asking because I'm considering using Torkoal (beast of a pokemon), and was wondering whether Lava Plume would be more advantageous on him considering his excellent defence - he won't be gettin' OHKO'd by a whole lot, so why not sacrifice a little power for a much higher chance of screwing over their pokemon with burn?

The moveset I planned on using was as follows:

-Amnesia
-Lava Plume
-Rapid Spin
-Hyper Beam/dunno, no idea for a good 4th move really, don't want hidden power.

I planned on having his special attack raised obviously, hence why I stuck to special attacks, and I need a spinner, so he's a decent choice with Amnesia.
Lava Plume in this instance seems much more useful than Flamethrower, as 30% chance to have physical attack damage on him is excellent considering it'd extend his lifespan even more.
He'll have leftovers by the way.
 
Lava Plume on the things that are bulky enough to afford a little less damage. Flamethrower seems to be generally preferred though, for more damage. 30% chance of burn sounds like fun though.

Oh, and BTW Turismo, so what about Torkoal's high defense when it has 4x weaks to Earthquake and Surf? A Torkoal OHKO is not particularly hard to pull off, at least not for me. It's kinda like... Aggron. Great defenses, but huge weaknesses to common attacking types.

EDIT: Thanks Tochukaso. :) Didn't realize that he was pure fire, must've been thinking about Magcargo.
 
Better to use flamethrower and will-o-the-wisp together if you want to nail something nasty on the switch. If you're using plume just for the burn, you might as well start using OHKOs as well, they work the same amount of times. :/
 
i think Lava Plume Heatran would be good, especially if you're not so great at predicting. (me!) at least you can burn whatever comes in to counter you.
 
Lava Plume looks fairly promising IMO. If I were to use it I would probably run some damage calcs on likely targets, or just some reasonable SpD and HP numbers and see; If it turns a 2HKO into a 3HKO or something like that I would go Flamethrower but otherwise Lava Plume. The increased burn chance is not to shabby.
 
Epistaxis said:
Better to use flamethrower and will-o-the-wisp together if you want to nail something nasty on the switch. If you're using plume just for the burn, you might as well start using OHKOs as well, they work the same amount of times. :/
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Then explain to me why Body Slam was Uber popular in RBY and GSC? I suppose RBY could cite a lack of Return, but even in GSC it was on a lot of sets. It dwindled in advance because a lot of the pokemon it was on got better options, but it's still used on Snorlax.

30% chance of Status is huge. Sacred Fire only burns as often as Dynamicpunch hits, but Sacred Fire strikes fear into the hearts of a lot of Ho-oh switchins.

It isn't like Torkoal will only be using Lava Plume once, and it isn't like Torkoal is totally vulnerable if it doesn't burn something, unlike OHKO's which basically constitute a free turn if they miss.

Besides, WoW and FT take up to slots. Lava Plume can both damage and burn and open up a slot for another move.
 
Lava Plume is used to free up a slot between Flamethrower and Will-o-Wisp.

Body Slam/Lava Plume are used because they cause damage AND have the effect. OHKO moves only have a 30% chance of doing ANYTHING at all. Accuracy is much more significant than effect chance on certain moves, probably why I count accuracy in decimals rather than whole numbers.

Lava Plume is also acceptable on Choice sets with Overheat, with Lava Plume taking care of switch ins with it's side effects while Overheat does the damage.

(lol, just realized I restated Deck/Coob Night said before even reading anything in this thread)
 
I pretty much always use Lava Plume if I am running a Heatran.


The main reason for this is that generally speaking for what I tend to use Heatran for, with a SpA score as high as it has it normally does 'enough' to whatever I'm trying to attack anyway and a lot of stuff that counters him really hates being burned... the added probability of burning the foe for a relatively small drop in power is normally worth it to me.


I think in general with Body Slam/Discharge/Lava Plume vs. Return/Thunderbolt/Flamethrower the survibility of the Pokemon using the move is the primary factor in the decision - if you aren't going to get at least a few shots at using the move and getting the paralyze/flame proc then it isn't really worth using, as well as whether the Pokemon tends to be trying to score a lot of OHKOs, in which case you normally want the higher power move. I'd probably also use Plume on Camerupt in UU (although I used Fire Blast in RS which is kind of completely in the opposite direction so maybe not!), but the rest of the Fires are better off with Flamethrower or Fire Blast I think.
 
I don't think the argument is the same as the discharge one. Paralyze can give you a chance to hit first next turn, or even win you a free turn, while burn can only lessen the damage. I doubt that it can give you the 2hko on something that would normally 2hko you. Meaning, the chance to burn is really only useful to a switch in, and that could probably be something to take a wow, meaning flamethrower would be better in that situation. Now don't get me wrong, burning a switch in is still very good, but I think it would be better in those situations in which it is good to have a reliable burn. I think its only very useful for fucking hera while still having the ability to burn something.

most of my post had torkoal in mind.
 
The problem is, 30% isn't reliable enough to use as a subsitute for will-of-the-wisp. And it's unpractical - if I were to predict a switch in, I'd rather bash it up real bad with flamethrower or, if I couldn't win, rely on a 75% chance of burn instead of a 30%.
 
Oh and keep in mind when comparing it to Return/Bodyslam that Return does not have a 10% chance of PAR.

Ugh I just woke up and it's 3 PM.
 
R2-D2 Rules! said:
could this set work?

Torkoal@Leftovers
Relaxed
-Body Slam
-Lava Plume
-Rest
-Sleep Talk

what would be a good Ev spread for it?
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If you're going mixed Relaxed would be the best nature. He also learns rapid spin, but being weak to Stealth Rock hurts him there. Still, despite his high defense being weak to EQ, Stone edge and Stealth rock hurts him in the wall department. Plus, his resistances aren't all to impressive IMO.
 
sanjay120 said:
And give you an extra turn to attack.

Dammit where's a cool-looking Sebastian-themed "Flawed Logic" icon when you need one.
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I was comparing it to Discharge..... as in, with Discharge, if you are slower but can 2HKO the opponent, and you get a lucky paralyze, you win. But with lava plume if you are slower but can 2HKO the opponent, and you get a lucky burn, you will possibly/probably still be KOed, considering the fact that most physical sweepers have a move SE to Fire, and that only fires learn lava plume. I could be wrong though, I might be underestimating Torkoal.
 
Various probabilities of burn.
Turn 1: 10% flamethrower burns. 30% chance Lava Plume burns. 75% chance WoW burns.

Turn 2. 19% chance flamethrower burns. 51% Lava Plume Burns. 93.75% WoW burns.

Turn 3. 27.1% Flamethrower burns. 65.7% Lava Plume burns. 98.43% WoW burns.

I won't do turn 4. Hell, by turn 2 I would have given up if WoW didn't burn. Lol. My point is however, that while the chance for Lava Plume burn is high, it isn't reliable enough to count on. It is a significant bonus over Flamethrower's burn rate however, especially when you add it over several turns.

However, due to the multi-hit capacity of Lava Plume, I'd see potential use in double battle. With 9% chance of burning both opponents in one turn, and a 51% chance of burning either opponent while still doing decent amounts of damage, it may see some use.
 
Dragontamer said:
Various probabilities of burn.
Turn 1: 10% flamethrower burns. 30% chance Lava Plume burns. 75% chance WoW burns.

Turn 2. 19% chance flamethrower burns. 51% Lava Plume Burns. 93.75% WoW burns.

Turn 3. 27.1% Flamethrower burns. 65.7% Lava Plume burns. 98.43% WoW burns.

I won't do turn 4. Hell, by turn 2 I would have given up if WoW didn't burn. Lol. My point is however, that while the chance for Lava Plume burn is high, it isn't reliable enough to count on. It is a significant bonus over Flamethrower's burn rate however, especially when you add it over several turns.

However, due to the multi-hit capacity of Lava Plume, I'd see potential use in double battle. With 9% chance of burning both opponents in one turn, and a 51% chance of burning either opponent while still doing decent amounts of damage, it may see some use.
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In 2 vs. 2s, Eruption is a better option because of the higher damage output (Of course there are a bunch of factors for that, but you get what I mean).

Just like I maintain Thunderbolt is superior to Discharge except on certain Pokemon, I'll go on the record to say that Flamethrower is far superior to Lava Plume, based on the fact that Paralysis is a far better status than Burn is, and when you WANT to burn something, you have Will-o-wisp.

Sir Spanky said:
Was that really worth making an account just to say ¬_¬
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Seconded. LegendaryX, considering I know you from the MP:H GameFAQS board (Do you remember me? Oh lawd), that's a pretty pathetic thing to be saying. Turi's nothing special, especially when it comes to Pokemon. There are other people to be worshipping who actually deserve it. -_-
 
Yeah, sup fellas who know who I am? >_>

As if Lava Plume isn't reliable enough, Torkoal's defences are massive and perhaps Rest over Hyper Beam/wtf move would be a better option combined with a Chesto Berry?
It'd allow you to get in an Amnesia or two perhaps aswell, with Torkoal the idea is to stay in for a long time - a move with 80 base power, STAB'd and a 30% chance of halving the opponents attack and dealing a little damage each turn is an excellent way to compliment Torkoals style of play.
Which is to survive a long time.

It should be noted that Torkoals Amnesia's cannot be hazed away thanks to his ability - meaning if played properly, he WILL be hanging around for a long time.

I see the reasoning in not having Rapid Spin on him though - I'll accept that, how's this:

TORKOAL@Chesto Berry/Leftovers

-Amnesia
-Lava Plume
-Rest
-Sleep Talk/Sludge Bomb

Screwed over by Flash Fires and water pokemon though.
Rest/Sleep Talk is just annoying especially if you were able to keep jacking up the defence of your choice.
Sludge Bomb on there somewhere would be nice to help out against fires and waters, not sure where it would fit in.

EDIT: TLX, Yoshi King thinks he's some kinda god here too bad I stomped him at MPH when we played and I would stomp him at pokemon anyday, lose the act Yoshi, I know you're shit.

But enough of this my topic, if you ain't gonna keep the trivial shit outta my topic, get the fuck out.
 
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