SM OU Ferrothorn + Toxapex Balance, need help :(

toenails_sauce

toenails_sauce

Hey guys, it's toenails_sauce. I see that Toxapex is a great mon and I wanted to build a team around it (specifically, a defensive core of Ferrothorn and Toxapex). But it didn't really turn out as well as I expected. This team has some major problems that causes me to lose kinda frequently. Just want some help before I lose even more battles :/


Teambuilding Process​


This is the balanced core I started out with:
598MS.png
checks Tapu Bulu, Koko, Lele, (Mega) Alakazam (chople berry to handle Fighting-type coverage)
748MS.png
stops Keldeo, Azumarill, Pheromosa, Mega Charizard Y, Salazzle, and several setup sweepers in general b/c of Haze
645TMS.png
checks Excadrill, Mega Charizard X, Alolan Marowak + Muk, opposing Landorus-t and Garchomp (basically most physical attackers, because this is a defensive set)

Here are the sweepers/wallbreakers that fill the rest of my team, covering most of the threats that trouble my defensive core:
647MS.png
checks some Dark-types that would otherwise cause major trouble (Greninja w/o Extrasensory, SD Bisharp, and Weavile); also provides crucial wallbreaking power
248MS.png
as a banded set, it is a very cool check to some Electric-types (like Mega Manectric, when he gets released), although it doesn't really check Tapu Koko. Pursuit traps some mons like Latios and Salazzle as well. It can break some walls and net surprise kills, though, as not many teams prepare for this set.
376MMS.png
somewhat reliable check to Toxapex and Mega Venusaur, which would otherwise cause big trouble for my team; another good switch-in to Tapu Lele and Bulu (but not Koko >:( )


Okay, so this team has some obvious weaknesses.
  • First of all, the commonly-used
    785MS.png
    can whittle down my team with ease, as it can Volt Switch away from my Ferrothorn (my only "check") as many times as it wants. Besides Ferrothorn, I don't really have any other reliable Electric-resists, because Landorus-t takes considerable damage from Dazzling Gleam, and some fuckers carry HP Ice.
  • 796MS.png
    : There seems to be a trend of people using Baton Pass Scolipede with Xurkitree. With coverage moves like Signal Beam and Grass Knot, this mon sweeps my team in a heartbeat if it gets to set up with Tail Glow while maintaining Speed boosts from Scolipede.
  • And why is Sub + Disable
    758MS.png
    a thing in Pokebank OU? Sure, I can check the more offensive sets (like Nasty Plot ones), but THIS set is a huge problem. With Substitute and Disbale, it keeps Banded Tyranitar, Toxapex, and Keldeo at bay; the only thing I can really do is wait for it to "use up" its Substitutes (because it takes 25% of its HP upon each use). Buuuut still. S+D Salazzle can really can cause trouble, especially if Toxapex is dead.


========SETS:========​

latest


Rule 34 (Ferrothorn) @ Chople Berry
Ability: Iron Barbs
EVs: 252 HP / 88 Def / 168 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Spikes
- Leech Seed
- Gyro Ball
- Power Whip
  • Chople Berry is important for dealing with mons that carry Fighting-type coverage.
  • EV spread prevents Manaphy from 2HKOing Ferrothorn from +3 Ice Beam. (rest is dumped into Defense for physical bulk)
  • Spikes sets up hazards.
  • Leech Seed is good for utility, sapping a bit of health from opponents for more longevity. Teammates can also benefit from this.
  • Gyro Ball hits frail attackers like Alakazam and Tapu Lele.
  • Power Whip keeps Manaphy, Keldeo, Mega Gyarados, and Azumarill in check.



toxapex_by_alexalan-damvgax.png

psych0 (Toxapex) @ Black Sludge
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 232 Def / 24 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Recover
- Toxic
- Haze
  • Black Sludge is preferred over Rocky Helmet for passive recovery (also avoids the 2HKO from Adamant Buzzwole's Earthquake).
  • Regernerator is gr8 for pivoting around.
  • The Special Defense EVs enables Toxapex to survive a non-STAB Thunderbolt from +1 Porygon-Z (and then use Haze). The rest is dumped into Defense and HP, because it is a physical wall.
  • Scald, while really weak, can deter some mons from switching in, due to fear of a burn.
  • Recover is a recovery move.
  • Toxic is NEEDED to stall some mons that have reliable recovery. Negates Leftovers recovery and compounds with Life Orb recoil as well.
  • Haze eliminates stat modifications, saving my team from a potential setup sweeper.



landorus__therian_forme__by_icaro382-d4zr10a.png

tigor (Landorus-Therian) @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 244 Def / 8 SpD / 8 Spe
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock
- U-turn
- Stone Edge
  • Rocky Helmet punishes physical attackers and can put some mons (like Mega Charizard X) in KO range of Earthquake.
  • I just realized that this is an outdated EV spread (the new one is now 252 HP / 216 Def / 24 SpD / 16 Spe), but 8 Spe enables Landorus-t to outspeed Modest Magnezone.
  • Stealth Rock sets up hazards (I'm using this way less than I should XD).
  • U-turn is good for momentum gaining.
  • Stone Edgy checks Flying-types and KOs Celesteela.


250px-647Keldeo.png

kek (Keldeo) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Secret Sword
- Hydro Pump
- Focus Blast
  • Choice Specs grants Keldeo more wallbreaking power.
  • Scald is good for spreading burns and is a reliable source of damage.
  • Secret Sword is the secondary STAB that obliterates Steel- and Normal-types.
  • Hydro Pump and Focus Blast are stronger but less accurate. (use them when you really need to!)



250px-248Tyranitar.png

biggie (Tyranitar) @ Choice Band
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 44 HP / 252 Atk / 212 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Stone Edge
- Crunch
- Superpower
- Pursuit
  • Choice Band makes Tyranitar a lethal wallbreaker.
  • Sand Stream makes it endure special attacks much better.
  • The Speed EVs cause Tyranitar to outspeed Rotom-w, Skarmory, and Mega Venusaur.
  • Stone Edge and Crunch have great neutral coverage, and the former can dish out a lot of damage.
  • Superpower hits Steel-types and those who resist both Rock and Dark (Keldeo, for instance).
  • Pursuit traps some frail mons, like Latios and Salazzle.



mega_metagross_by_theangryaron-d7qiv2b.png

ez pz (Metagross-Mega) @ Metagrossite
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Meteor Mash
- Zen Headbutt
- Hammer Arm
- Ice Punch
  • Meteor Mash and Zen Headbutt are its STABs that can check key threats in OU. (Clefable, Tyranitar, Keldeo, Toxapex, etc.)
  • Hammer Arm hits Steel-types like Heatran, Ferrothorn, and Jirachi.
  • Ice Punch does great damage to Landorus-t and Garchomp.

Replays:
These are low-ELO replays (I didn't do many battles yet), so most of them are not very important.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pokebankoususpecttest-508999296
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pokebankoususpecttest-509019447 this is a funny replay, as I got my ass kicked by Belly Drum Charizard X with Flame Charge
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pokebankoususpecttest-509026179


In conclusion, this team isn't very good and needs major improvements. The problem is that I don't know what to fit into my team to fix my problems. But I haven't looked much into gen7 mons, so I might consider replacing one or two of my teammates with them.

Anyways, thanks for the help!
 
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I give you some advice, use Ferrothorn as setter of rocks, using Landarus scarf Hp Ice, Tyranitar Scarfato and easily surmountable speed also pheromosa it hurts too much to the limit I recommend a set with AV 248 PV 252 Attk SPD 8 I tell you that holds a bang and Iron head throws down the elves, cmq with all these u-turn around Tyranitar and less powerful, if you use Ferrothorn setters put as Ravange kill Landarus with scarf and ice Hp x kill others Garchomp and Landarus, you're pretty deboluccio the opponent earthquake seen your three weaknesses, Thundarus mixed attacker might be an option.
 
Matteo Zoni said:
I give you some advice, use Ferrothorn as setter of rocks, using Landarus scarf Hp Ice, Tyranitar Scarfato and easily surmountable speed also pheromosa it hurts too much to the limit I recommend a set with AV 248 PV 252 Attk SPD 8 I tell you that holds a bang and Iron head throws down the elves, cmq with all these u-turn around Tyranitar and less powerful, if you use Ferrothorn setters put as Ravange kill Landarus with scarf and ice Hp x kill others Garchomp and Landarus, you're pretty deboluccio the opponent earthquake seen your three weaknesses, Thundarus mixed attacker might be an option.
Click to expand...
Wow. I actually never thought of scarfed Landorus-t before. He's still kinda reliable as a ground resist, and more importantly, he can revenge kill Tapu Koko (even though changing the set might increase my Mega Charizard X weakness). But AV Tyranitar...I wouldn't prefer it, because I will have a worse matchup against stall/balance. Mixed Thundurus cannot really fit into my team tho.

Thanks for the help!
 
The point is not that Tyranitar and one splits walls real, and in this place takes them from the majority of pkm least it does not have the AV

252 SpA Tapu Lele Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 8 SPD Assault Vest Tyranitar: 138-164 (34.2 - 40.6%) - guaranteed 3HKO

holds up to 2 safe shots Tapu Lele Scarf, which can very well kill him, if played well against special attackers ago slaughterhouses, as well as the various block Latios etc. with pursuit.

and we say that a large Tank

If you want a break walls you should Buwozzle substitutes or mixed Kyurem Icium Z

regarding Thundarus I noticed that you did not move in any electro Team, Thundarus might be for you because in addition to shoot lightning can use Knock Off to Marowak-Alola also hp ice and useful vs Landarus and Garchomp opponents
 
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Ok, I'll go through every mon and try to make some improvements.

Ferrothorn:
- If you decide to run scarf Lando (mentioned later), run Stealth Rock > Spikes. If not, though, you can keep spikes to stack both SR and Spikes.
- Run Thunder Wave > Gyro Ball/Power Whip. Your team seems rather slow as you have no scarfer and your highest speed pokemon and are one at base 110 and another at base 108. This allows you to cripple threats such as scarf Tapu Lele or Mega Zard X/Y if they try to switch into you; for that reason I would run it over Gyro Ball personally, but you can choose either.

Toxapex:
You seem to have no real special wall, as all three of your defensive mons have either mixed defenses or almost straight max defense. I would change Toxapex to a mixed special set, which would be this:
Toxapex @ Black Sludge
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 124 Def / 132 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Scald
- Recover
- Toxic
- Haze
This would make it so you have a special wall that you can throw in, and regenerator lets you pivot into any of your defensive mons too. The reason to run 0 speed IVs and a Sassy nature is so you can soft-counter Trick Room teams, as you are now slower than Alolan-Marowak and just about every T.R. threat and can be faster them under the room and scald, recover stall, etc. It's not like you're trying to be faster than anything anyway.

Landorus-T:
For Landorus, like you said at the top, definitely run 252 HP / 216 Def / 24 SpD / 16 Spe as your EVs. You also said that you barely use Stealth Rocks, but any chance that you can safely set them up you definitely should. Also, this is just my preference, but you can run either Toxic > Stone Edge or HP Ice > Stone Edge as it covers opposing Landorus's trying to come in on you and you can toxic them and U-turn out.

Now, If you wanted more speed on your team, you could run Choice Scarf Landorus-T. This is just an option though, you can choose whichever you want as defensive Landorus-T is already a great mon. I would personally run
Landorus-Therian (M) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- U-turn
- Stone Edge
- Knock Off

Keldeo:
For Keldeo, I really don't think it is necessary to run both Focus Blast and Secret Sword as you lose out on coverage. So, I suggest either HP Electric > Focus Blast or Icy Wind > Focus Blast. The first one lets you counter defensive Celesteela a little better, and Icy Wind is for Tankchomp, Lati twins, etc.

Tyranitar:
There's really not much I would change here; maybe make it a little bit bulkier if you are running scarf Landorus-T, but otherwise it looks like a good, standard BandTar.

Mega Metagross:
I personally prefer Earthquake > Hammer Arm since dropping your speed is very undesirable, but if you need that coverage then have at it.

I hope I helped!
 
Toxapex @ Black Sludge /Rocky Elmet
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 176 Def / 80 SpD
Bold Nature
- Scald/Infestation
- Toxic/Toxic Spikes
- Haze
- Recover

80 special defense to withstand a psychic M Alakazam

252 SpA Alakazam-Mega Psychic vs. 248 HP / 80 SpD Toxapex: 254-302 (83.8 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 
MatthewMallory said:
Ok, I'll go through every mon and try to make some improvements.

Ferrothorn:
- If you decide to run scarf Lando (mentioned later), run Stealth Rock > Spikes. If not, though, you can keep spikes to stack both SR and Spikes.
- Run Thunder Wave > Gyro Ball/Power Whip. Your team seems rather slow as you have no scarfer and your highest speed pokemon and are one at base 110 and another at base 108. This allows you to cripple threats such as scarf Tapu Lele or Mega Zard X/Y if they try to switch into you; for that reason I would run it over Gyro Ball personally, but you can choose either.

Toxapex:
You seem to have no real special wall, as all three of your defensive mons have either mixed defenses or almost straight max defense. I would change Toxapex to a mixed special set, which would be this:
Toxapex @ Black Sludge
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 124 Def / 132 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Scald
- Recover
- Toxic
- Haze
This would make it so you have a special wall that you can throw in, and regenerator lets you pivot into any of your defensive mons too. The reason to run 0 speed IVs and a Sassy nature is so you can soft-counter Trick Room teams, as you are now slower than Alolan-Marowak and just about every T.R. threat and can be faster them under the room and scald, recover stall, etc. It's not like you're trying to be faster than anything anyway.

Landorus-T:
For Landorus, like you said at the top, definitely run 252 HP / 216 Def / 24 SpD / 16 Spe as your EVs. You also said that you barely use Stealth Rocks, but any chance that you can safely set them up you definitely should. Also, this is just my preference, but you can run either Toxic > Stone Edge or HP Ice > Stone Edge as it covers opposing Landorus's trying to come in on you and you can toxic them and U-turn out.

Now, If you wanted more speed on your team, you could run Choice Scarf Landorus-T. This is just an option though, you can choose whichever you want as defensive Landorus-T is already a great mon. I would personally run
Landorus-Therian (M) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- U-turn
- Stone Edge
- Knock Off

Keldeo:
For Keldeo, I really don't think it is necessary to run both Focus Blast and Secret Sword as you lose out on coverage. So, I suggest either HP Electric > Focus Blast or Icy Wind > Focus Blast. The first one lets you counter defensive Celesteela a little better, and Icy Wind is for Tankchomp, Lati twins, etc.

Tyranitar:
There's really not much I would change here; maybe make it a little bit bulkier if you are running scarf Landorus-T, but otherwise it looks like a good, standard BandTar.

Mega Metagross:
I personally prefer Earthquake > Hammer Arm since dropping your speed is very undesirable, but if you need that coverage then have at it.

I hope I helped!
Click to expand...

I really appreciate the suggestions! Probably do need some speed control w/ Ferrothorn lol or w/ scarfed Lando-t (Btw I just found out that specially defensive/mixed Toxapex that you suggested can survive 2 HP Electrics from Specs Keldeo after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery, which is great)
 
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