Espeon (Substitute + 3 Attacks)

Diesel

Diesel

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(Heysup) (FlareBlitz)
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(Fatecrashers) (Snorlaxe)

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/espeon

[SET]
name: Substitute + 3 Attacks
move 1: Substitute
move 2: Psychic
move 3: Hidden Power Ground
move 4: Grass Knot / Shadow Ball
item: Life Orb
nature: Timid
ivs: 29 HP
evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Espeon is fast, frail, and hits like a truck, so a Substitute + 3 Attacks set is a natural choice. Three attacks instead of two attacks upgrades Espeon's type coverage substantially, which alleviates the need to boost its Special Attack in order to beat bulkier Pokemon. Since Espeon forces many Pokemon to switch out, setting up a Substitute should always be its first priority. Substitute helps to ease prediction, allowing Espeon to fire off the optimal attack twice against slower Pokemon. Furthermore, Substitute shields Espeon from Dark-type switch-ins eager to trap it with Pursuit or nail it with Sucker Punch. While Spiritomb remains a threat, min/min Drapion and Houndoom will be OHKOed by Hidden Power Ground after Stealth Rock, and Skuntank is likely to meet the same fate.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>Espeon has a number of viable attacks in its arsenal, but the combination of Psychic and Hidden Power Ground gives the best core type coverage. Unlike in the OU environment, STAB Psychic can steamroll many Pokemon in UU, where only a handful resist it. Hidden Power Ground 2HKOes Steelix, and scores OHKOs on Aggron and the aforementioned Dark-types after Stealth Rock damage. Grass Knot is the preferred attack to round out the set, but Shadow Ball is also a viable option depending on what you want to hit. Grass Knot scores a very important 2HKO on all common Milotic variants, OHKOes Rhyperior and Donphan, and hits Spiritomb for 100 Base Power. Shadow Ball, meanwhile, roughs up Exeggutor, Uxie, and Mesprit, who would otherwise shrug off Espeon's attacks. It also allows Espeon to OHKO Mismagius, which it fails to do with Psychic even after Stealth Rock. Both options nail Slowbro and Claydol for super effective damage. As these examples demonstrate, having Stealth Rock support is absolutely imperative for Espeon to achieve several key OHKOs.</p>

<p>In UU, this set struggles to avoid being overshadowed by Alakazam, whose higher Speed and access to Focus Blast give it an edge over Espeon. There are, however, several advantages to running this Espeon set. The most obvious difference is in defensive stats, as Espeon is significantly bulkier than Alakazam; however, this is strictly relative, since Espeon is still moderately fragile by objective standards. Another difference is that opponents will initially anticipate Espeon's trademark Baton Pass, which may cause them to inadvertently put something like Encore Clefable or Haze Milotic in the line of fire. Additionally, using this set in tandem with Alakazam is also an option. Alakazam makes a great anti-lead that can prevent entry hazards from being setup and lure out Espeon's counters so that you can plot a way to destroy them before revealing Espeon.</p>

<p>Not many Pokemon can handle Espeon once it is hiding behind a Substitute; Registeel and Chansey are the two main exceptions to this. Standard Registeel avoids being 3HKOed, although it won't enjoy frequently switching in without reliable recovery, while Rest variants and Chansey can wall Espeon with ease. Spiritomb can be added to the list under most circumstances, and is Espeon's most threatening counter since it commonly carries Pursuit. However, Choice Band variants must be at full health to avoid a 2HKO from Grass Knot, and even then there is a small chance of it occurring. Specially defensive variants, especially those with Pursuit and a priority move, fare the best, and will force Espeon to flee while it still has its Substitute up. Espeon's teammates should definitely aim to take advantage of these three Pokemon, as they are really the only three surefire counters to Espeon in UU. Blaziken walks all over these Pokemon, and can set up a Swords Dance or Agility while Espeon's counter flees. Dugtrio makes an amazing partner as well, as it can trap and KO Registeel and Chansey, opening the door for Espeon to wreak havoc. Substitute Rhyperior can also set up on all three aforementioned counters and proceed to hammer the opposing team with its massive offensive power.</p>

<p>Between Substitute and Life Orb damage, Espeon won't be sticking around for long, so it is important to preserve what little health it does have. Entry hazards take their toll quickly, as do most attacks. Therefore, it is important to pair Espeon with Pokemon that can get it free switches. U-turn users, such as Scyther and Primeape, will lure out Pokemon like Weezing and Donphan, both of whom Espeon can set up on easily. If you can fit Wish support onto your team, do so by all means, as it will greatly increase Espeon's lifespan. Clefable can use Wish and torture Registeel and Chansey with Encore, making it a solid teammate.</p>

Why this deserves to be on-site:
- Significantly more defensively sound than Alakazam. (271/156/226 v. 251/126/206)
- Espeon can setup a sweep for Alakazam (CM or Sub+3Atks) by identifying and weakening its few counters.
- Substitute eases prediction, protects against Skuntank (probably KO after SR), Drapion (4/0 is OHKOed after SR), Spiritomb.
- Forces switches easily, allowing for many Subportunities.
- Dismantles many of the most common Pokemon in the tier with type coverage and raw power.
- Psychic pillages UU.

Additional Comments:
- HP Ground provides great coverage and nails "counters".
- HP Fight and Signal Beam both OHKO Absol, can be used similarly to HP Ground, Shadow Ball, respectively. Not really worth it though =/ .
- 29 HP IV better? Hits 269 so 1 pt. less LO recoil with same Sub HP.

Teammates and Counters:
- Dugtrio can remove Chansey, Registeel, weakened Spiritomb.
- Alakazam = God awful defensively, overpowering offensively.
- Hitmonlee, Blaziken, Houndoom.
- Something that can take priority hits, namely from Azumarill and Arcanine.
- Registeel (just too bulky), Chansey, Spiritomb.
- w/o Shadow Ball: Uxie, Mesprit.
- w/o Grass Knot: Milotic.
- Priority
 
I think the idea behind Sub + 3 Attacks Pokemon is to get a frail Pokemon both protection from priority and a way of easing prediction. A bit of extra bulk isn't really worth it on this type of set. Your sub is still getting broken by Milotic, Altaria, Slowbro, Claydol, and any other wall that uses special attacks. So all in all, this is just an Espeon that uses little of its noteworthy traits, and is therefore inferior to Alakazam.
 
I like the concept of a double-Psychic team, but I reckon Sub + 3 Attacks is a not the best to be running alongside Alakazam, while being outclassed by Alakazam. I still think the best Alakazam-counter-lure is Specs Espeon, either Tricking Chansey or something like that so Alakazam can destroy her later or Baton Passing to Dugtrio if they switch in Registeel or Chansey. Just my 2 cents
 
This actually doesn't do too well against many of Alaka's counter and checks; Chansey just walls this, Registeel doesn't take too much damage from HP Ground, Spiritomb easily defeats it, SpDef Arcanine isn't 2HKO'd, it's another Pursuit weakness to be added and so on. Long story short, IMHO, the risk of adding this set to a team and making yourself even weaker to things like Chansey and Spiritomb when paired with Alakazam has way more drawbacks than benefits.
 
Can I suggest that Sub + Life Orb is not a good combination, and offer an alternative in Expert Belt.
 
@All - I don't think I quite made myself clear. This set doesn't HAVE to be used with Alakazam as a partner, and being bulkier than Alakazam is just kind of a bonus. I guess these two things are just ways I was distinguishing it from Alakazam, and are extra things you can do with an already good set. IMO this set is simply too good not to have a spot on the analysis, even if it's slightly overshadowed by Alakazam, and it's better than most of Espeon's current sets. I guess my question would be why deprive an analysis of a great set? It's not like this is Chimecho or something.

@shrang - I've seen both used alongside Zam, although haven't used Specs myself. I definitely see the merit in both. The thing I don't like about Specs is that prediction can cost you a lot, although obviously you're not going to Psychic right off the bat or something retarded like that. Dugtrio has an easy time with Chansey + Registeel anyway. I've had my ass handed to me by Specs though, so I think both are good.

@Bluewind - That's why Dugtrio especially is mentioned as a partner. I'm not saying this set deals with Alakazam's counters. Basically there are not that many ways to stop Alakazam from ripping through a given team, and Espeon will bring them into the light and either soften them up or switch to something like Dugtrio that can take them down.

@Toothache - Too many OHKOes are missed not to use Life Orb. It's not meant to stick around forever.
 
@Alchemator - Uh how does your set have any bearing on this set or this discussion at all? Literally all of Espeon's current sets except CM have Baton Pass, how is yours relevant here? Because it refers to Espeon as "she" when it's 87.5% male? I'm unsure why you chose to make that comment.

I'm going to repeat myself and say that obviously I'm aware that Alakazam has more speed and access to Focus Blast. I'm not stupid, nor am I some sort of Espeon fanboy, nor am I just trying to get an analysis on-site. I truly believe the set has merit, and can be used with Alakazam. If you can't see the value, try it out _then_ come back and tell me it sucks.
 
As for the gender, it's pink xD

I was saying that you can't use "this isn't outclassed by Alakazam, unlike other sets on site" as a pro- point for this set. Looking back though I guess I read it wrong, sorry.
 
I'm not sure I understand the point is of using this with Alakazam, nor what the actual benefits are using it over Alakazam. When does the slight extra bulk matter? Does it really outweigh the Speed, coverage, and power?
 
why are we using sub + life orb? really doesnt work out well in the long run. and i agree with heysup, the hard counters for both are the same, and this doesn't do anything to lure and weaken the hard counters for something like alakazam to sweep. chansey walls both all day, and evne registeel can come in and not die to both.
 
Actually Alakazam can beat Registeel one on one...but yeah that combination leaves teams open a lot (especially to Spiritomb).
 
ToF said:
why are we using sub + life orb? really doesnt work out well in the long run. and i agree with heysup, the hard counters for both are the same, and this doesn't do anything to lure and weaken the hard counters for something like alakazam to sweep. chansey walls both all day, and evne registeel can come in and not die to both.
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Substitute + Life Orb is actually very very good on some Pokemon, it shouldn't be shrugged off just because of recoil. However in this case when one of the positives over Alakazam is bulk, it does apply. Additionally, Registeel isn't the worry, I think it's mostly Spiritomb.
 
Well if it counts for anything you hit even tombs with a reasonable amount of bulk pretty alright with gk. I dunno it looks solid to me just because when you bring zam in, people know you're probably a sublo attacker but when you bring espeon in people probably assume you're going to try to baton pass and may react differently. For an Espeon set it looks fine I'd have to test though.
 
Obviously Alakazam overshadows this set, and I merely suggested that it could be paired with Alakazam in order to avoid being completely overshadowed, although I still believe it's a viable pair. At least do me a favor and try it out for a few battles, because it actually is a fun combo to use. I got this idea from a couple people who used it against me (with 1500+ CREs), and after I finally took down Espeon and was relieved to have done so, he reveals his last pokemon is Alakazam, and it was such a humorously crushing experience I just had to try it out.

Anyway, I still contend this is a very effective set and more usable than the majority of Espeon's analysis. I guess I just wish we in C&C weren't so eager to deprive analyses of perfectly good sets just because there are a couple of pokemon that Alakazam can handle that Espeon. Although I know this isn't "the point", I'll repeat that this is Chimecho (Substitute + 3 Attacks), it's a pokemon that can destroy most of the metagame from behind a sub.

But yea, just try it out for a few battles then hit the REJECT button if you don't think it deserves a spot in the analysis. :)

EDIT: What LO+Sub is definitely what you want, agreeing with Heysup's post. And Jabba has it right.

EDIT2: I'm aware Spiritomb is a nightmare for both of these pokemon. Obviously you'll absolutely want to pair something with Espeon that can set up on Spiritomb or just KO it. Spiritomb is not that hard of a pokemon to overcome, since its recovery is unreliable and it can't handle powerful attack from either side very well. And it CAN be an advantage to know exactly what is about to switch-in, you know.
 
I think we're looking at this the wrong way though. We're looking at this set as a Pokemon that complements/helps set-up an Alakazam sweep, but there are other Pokemon that do that better (like Dugtrio and Mixdoom). You mention things like Hitmonlee (which already pairs very fucking well with Alakazam and makes Espeon's use suspect) and Blaziken as partners, but now you have 3 very frail Pokemon that will get raped by Azu's Aqua Jet or K9's XSpeed. If we're going to consider this set, there at least needs to be mentions of a few bulky pivot Pokemon (like Milotic or Slowbro) to help deal with revenge killers so you're not forced to sacrifice a Pokemon to priority every time it switches in.

And if we're looking at this as a stand alone sweeper, Alakazam does that better and the argument of higher bulk is made void because Sub+LO is going to make Espeon fall to the same attacks that Alakazam would.
 
I will test this out and post soon.

I think this calc is actually pretty impressive, Grass Knot vs Trick Band Spiritomb: 43.8% - 51.6%.

Too be honest I had no idea that Spiritomb was hit 100 BP by these moves.
 
JabbaTheGriffin said:
Which is completely irrelevant for deciding if this set should go in the Espeon analysis. How many more times must we go over this concept?
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That's if we're looking at this as a stand alone sweeper, which we obviously aren't considering every post in this thread has the word Akazalam in it.

Almost every analysis would be huge if we were to include every viable set. This is what OC is for. This Espeon set is outclassed as a sweeper and as a lure for Zam's counters by other Pokemon without adding the same weaknesses to your team. A paragraph or something in OC is fine, but spreading around mediocre double strategies isn't something I'm very fond of.

And before people attack me saying I've never used this set, I've analyzed Alakazam inside and out along with his partners. Espeon was much worse as a partner than Hitmonlee and Mismagius. And these two don't need a 3rd Pokemon like Dugtrio or Houndoom to patch up the fact that Espeon and Alakazam are similar and can be exploited too easily.
 
Why aren't we looking at it as a standalone sweeper? The OP overmentions Alakazam (which is clearly just because he didn't think it'd be accepted if he didn't talk about how it isn't outclassed by Zam or how it can be useful at the same time as Zam, which wasn't needed) and so does the rest of the thread. As far as an Espeon set this would work fine as a standalone sweeper. So there's no need to mention Alakazam anymore guys.

Almost every analysis would be huge if we were to include every viable set. This is what OC is for. This Espeon set is outclassed as a sweeper and as a lure for Zam's counters by other Pokemon without adding the same weaknesses to your team. A paragraph or something in OC is fine, but spreading around mediocre double strategies isn't something I'm very fond of.
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This is just completely untrue by the way. We've already decided a while ago that outclassed sets still go in the analysis as long as that pokemon does the set well in comparison to the rest of its sets. I don't see any analyses bubbling over with tons of sets.
 
Yes, I believe we should start discussing this sets merits and usefulness if one was going to use this over Alakazam, and not on the same team together.

I don't recall any sets being on site strictly to help set-up one Pokemon. There are things like BaitLix which are meant to set-up numerous Pokemon, but that's completely different than using an Espeon set just to be forced to use Alakazam with it as well.

So I think any further discussion should be how this set operates on a team without Alakazam.
 
OR BETTER YET why don't we discuss how this set operates on A TEAM. That's right. Any team. Because Zam is still irrelevant.
 
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