Espeon (Bulky Baton Pass)

LighTz911

LighTz911

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Espeon

[SET]
name: Bulky Baton Pass
move 1: Calm Mind
move 2: Baton Pass
move 3: Substitute
move 4: Wish / Psychic
item: Leftovers
ability: Magic Bounce
nature: Bold
evs: 252 HP / 228 Def / 28 Spd

Why This Set Deserves To Be On-site

- Plays a lot differently than other Espeons because this set focuses on Espeon's mediocre, but capable, bulk to set up Calm Minds and pass to a special sweeper.
- Sets up Calm Mind and Substitute while Baton Passing Wish easily.
- Because of Baton Pass, Espeon can avoid Pursuits from Tyranitar and Scizor while maximum defense investment insures Espeon won't be taken down by Bullet Punch, either.
- In a one-on-one situation, through a combination of Substitute and Wish, Espeon will always beat Ferrothorn through PP stalling while blocking hazards. It can also beat it unless you switch into Power Whip as Gyro Ball won't be doing much.
- You also handle Forretress and Skarmory much better because Gyro Ball won't be doing much at all and neither will Brave Bird.
- Great surprise factor to many expecting a frail Espeon.
- No attacks can sometimes be troublesome if you use Wish, but since you're mostly going to pass, it likely doesn't matter too much.
- You'd generally want a recipient who can take advantage of Calm Mind boosts.

Addition Comments

- EV spread lets it take physical hits as much as possible while taking special hits decently because of its natural bulk and maximum HP investment.
- A faster variant can be used at the cost of losing the necessary bulk.
- You can use 252 Def instead of 228 if you want slightly better defense.
- You can use Psychic or any other attack in place of Wish if the no attack is bothering you, but Wish is needed to beat Ferrothorn and heal itself while healing teammates.
- Hidden Power [Fire] is another option if Scizor and Ferrothorns are bothering you.
- Best on bulky offense or balanced teams who appreciate Calm Mind boosts, a weak Wish support, or a good Ferrothorn, Forretress, Skarmory check.
- Even with all this bulk, you aren't able to handle powerful physical attackers such as Tyranitar, Scizor, Dragonite, Terrakion, etc.
- This can also be used in the Uber tier, where special attackers are much more plentiful.

Teammates, Checks, and Counters

- Scizor can scare off Espeon with STAB U-turn or Pursuit, but if it already has boosts and Baton Passes, it is unable to catch it with Pursuit mean you have to U-turn only to find yourself in that situation again. Bullet Punch can pick off weakened Espeons.
- Tyranitar is in the same league with Scizor, only that it can Crunch if it wishes to.
- Terrakion can come in and scare it off, but Espeon can Baton Pass to the appropriate Terrakion check.
- Dragonite can set up on Espeon and prepare for a sweep.
- Lati@s can safely come in and Calm Mind, but Specs variant lose if Espeon already has Substitute up as it can Calm Mind while your Draco Meteors weaken every time.
- Perish Song is a huge pain as it passes on with Baton Pass.
- Any Pokemon that appreciate Calm Mind boosts is a fine teammate.
- Virizion may be as it is able to take down Tyranitar with Focus Blast while dealing immense damage to Scizor with it, too. Dragonite and Lati@s is also beaten by Hidden Power [Ice]. Lastly, Terrakion is beaten by Giga Drain.
 
Why is Impish even a listed option? Even without attacks, Bold would be preferred to to minimize confusion damage. Also, unless it's doing anything in particular, I would imagine a spread of 252 HP / 228 Def / 28 Spe would be cooler, outspeeding and BPing to something to avoid attacks from Dragonite and such, which he really won't be taking well even with a large Defense investment. Just my two cents though.
 
This just screams Taunt bait. And Scizor bait. And Tyranitar bait. And it seems like it can't really do much...I mean, you sub, get off a CM and then Baton Pass, which by then means you're either dead or cripples for the rest of the match to give a CM? I think logs of this working would be helpful.
 
JellyOs said:
This just screams Taunt bait. And Scizor bait. And Tyranitar bait. And it seems like it can't really do much...I mean, you sub, get off a CM and then Baton Pass, which by then means you're either dead or cripples for the rest of the match to give a CM? I think logs of this working would be helpful.
Click to expand...

Magic Mirror bounces Taunt.
Baton Pass pass evades Pursuit.

However, I do share a certain level of doubt with it's success. Also, upon second thought, I can't imagine Espeon being all too great of a Wish passer. His Wishes aren't particularly large, he is still a tad fragile either way, and trying to pass subs, CMs, and Wishes seems to be stretching him a little thin. I would consider Morning Sun and Sun support to be a tad more realistic.

edit: ninja'd to a degree
 
col49 said:
Magic Mirror bounces Taunt.
Baton Pass pass evades Pursuit.

However, I do share a certain level of doubt with it's success. Also, upon second thought, I can't imagine Espeon being all too great of a Wish passer. His Wishes aren't particularly large, he is still a tad fragile either way, and trying to pass subs, CMs, and Wishes seems to be stretching him a little thin. I would consider Morning Sun and Sun support to be a tad more realistic.

edit: ninja'd to a degree
Click to expand...

Wish isn't. Wish is need to beat Ferrothorn, counter Skarmory and Forretress better, and in general, it heals Espeon allowing it to set up more Substitutes and passing boosts.

You don't always have to pass Substitute, Wish, and Calm Mind. You could just pass one if it is needed. It's like double dancers, you don't always set up everything, but set things that is most appropriate in the situation you're in.
 
I forgot Magic Bounce ;-; My bad. I still echo my thoughts though. Why lose the speed that's so valuable to Espeon? I think the AC mention of substitute in the current analysis covers this. I think this set definitely has a place on Baton Pass teams, but this really doesn't play so differently than the current Baton Pass Espeon. I'd love to see a log of this though, if it actually can work well.
 
JellyOs said:
I forgot Magic Bounce ;-; My bad. I still echo my thoughts though. Why lose the speed that's so valuable to Espeon? I think the AC mention of substitute in the current analysis covers this. I think this set definitely has a place on Baton Pass teams, but this really doesn't play so differently than the current Baton Pass Espeon. I'd love to see a log of this though, if it actually can work well.
Click to expand...

This is supposed to be a bulky Calm Mind passer. The standard Espeon sets all take fatal damage from Power Whips, Gyro Balls, and Brave Birds from Ferrothorn, Forretress, and Skarmory, respectively.
 
LighTz911 said:
This is supposed to be a bulky Calm Mind passer. The standard Espeon sets all take fatal damage from Power Whips, Gyro Balls, and Brave Birds from Ferrothorn, Forretress, and Skarmory, respectively.
Click to expand...

Ferrothorn's Gyro Balls and Power Whips still break your subs.
Skarm's Brave Bird turns froma 2-3HKO to a 3-4HKO.
Forretress's Gyro Ball is the only major difference.
You now lose in speed against 252 Adamant 80's, Base 70+, the key 100 tier, lose on speed ties with Gengar, and generally miss out on a lot of passing opportunities. It's like this: Landorus switches in on you as you CM. You're dead.
You miss the opportunities to pass of your CM's that 252+ spe gets. You can't come is and CM then pass anymore, you'll be dead first. If you really want to justify this set you'll need some calcs as to what it has over 252 HP Espeon.
 
JellyOs said:
Ferrothorn's Gyro Balls and Power Whips still break your subs.
Skarm's Brave Bird turns froma 2-3HKO to a 3-4HKO.
Forretress's Gyro Ball is the only major difference.
You now lose in speed against 252 Adamant 80's, Base 70+, the key 100 tier, lose on speed ties with Gengar, and generally miss out on a lot of passing opportunities. It's like this: Landorus switches in on you as you CM. You're dead.
You miss the opportunities to pass of your CM's that 252+ spe gets. You can't come is and CM then pass anymore, you'll be dead first. If you really want to justify this set you'll need some calcs as to what it has over 252 HP Espeon.
Click to expand...

Even though they break your Substitutes, you are able to PP Stall them...

If Landorus switches into to as you Calm Mind, you Baton Pass or switch out for a better opportunity.

Losing speed ties and being outsped is only natural for more bulk.

No you don't...? You say that all I do is Calm Mind and die, yet the opposite is true. This set is meant for Baton Passing while keeping myself alive. I'm assuming people who might use this are capable of realizing that you aren't capable of setting up on threats such as Landorus, rather, defensive utilities such as Ferrothorn. The Standard 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe can't set up on Ferrothorn. One-on-one, Power Whip does well above 60%, while this set takes about 35% while, through a combintion of Substitute and Wish, you PP stall out his Power Whip.
 
That's exactly my point though. You can ONLY set up on slow defensive threats, while you yourself can't touch an opposing threat that could easily be dispatched by a CM Psychic or HP Fire. You say that the 252 HP can't set up on Ferro, but it 2HKO's it with HP Fire while still being able to beat things like CB Terrakion, to which you can't do a thing to! My point is, your set offers little viability when you compare its advantages to yours.
 
JellyOs said:
That's exactly my point though. You can ONLY set up on slow defensive threats, while you yourself can't touch an opposing threat that could easily be dispatched by a CM Psychic or HP Fire. You say that the 252 HP can't set up on Ferro, but it 2HKO's it with HP Fire while still being able to beat things like CB Terrakion, to which you can't do a thing to! My point is, your set offers little viability when you compare its advantages to yours.
Click to expand...

Even if you use fast Espeon, you don't set up on Gengar, Landorus, etc. either.
Ugh, this is supposed to pass...not sweep...
 
Try 28 Spe EV's and replace Wish with HP Fire / Psychic. I think it'll work alot better because you won't have to PP Stall Ferrothorn and you can pass before Dragonite gets his Outrage off, KO'ing you.
 
It's a negligible amount of EV's that could allow you to make the pass successful, why would you AC it when Dnite is the second most common Pokemon in the game? And HP Fire let's you actually beat Ferrothorn instead of PP stalling it? Why would it stay in if they know you're just going to stall? Why not just OHKO it at +2?
 
JellyOs said:
It's a negligible amount of EV's that could allow you to make the pass successful, why would you AC it when Dnite is the second most common Pokemon in the game? And HP Fire let's you actually beat Ferrothorn instead of PP stalling it? Why would it stay in if they know you're just going to stall? Why not just OHKO it at +2?
Click to expand...

Well, if you want it that badly, I'll just put it as main.

Because this set is supposed to pass Calm Minds while healing itself for more passing and possibly the recipient. This set isn't supposed to sweep.

I have no clue why they would, but if they don't, free Calm Minds. Not to mention, most people will stay in a few turns, anyway.
 
I can see your point there. Well my main objection to this was speed, but that was an easy fix. I think HP Fire should get an AC at least, but that's up to you. That's pretty much all I have to say about this set, good luck with it.
EDIT: I do like the changes to the AC a lot.
 
JellyOs said:
I can see your point there. Well my main objection to this was speed, but that was an easy fix. I think HP Fire should get an AC at least, but that's up to you. That's pretty much all I have to say about this set, good luck with it.
EDIT: I do like the changes to the AC a lot.
Click to expand...

Thank you.

I'll put HP Fire in AC.
 
An OO mention is all that is needed for bulky Espeon. Most of the times, the extra Speed is more useful, especially when setting up on specially-offensive mons. Faster physical attackers can also now hit Espeon harder with their STAB moves rather than resorting to weaker priority moves, making the extra bulk rather counter-productive.

QC Rejected
 
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