Empoleon discussion

Jediment

Jediment

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To me, Empoleon seems to occupy an important niche in that he resists every STAB move coming off Kyurem and has enough defenses to withstand the infamous V-create. Although he is still weak to both Fusion Bolt and Focus Blast, two common coverage moves that these Pokemon carry, Empoleon's natural defenses and the help of resistance berries means Empoleon can stay in on these two with surprising audacity.

Sets:

Set name: Utility Counter
Move 1: Surf
Move 2: Flash Cannon
Move 3: Rest
Move 4: Sleep Talk
Item: Chople Berry / Wacan Berry
Nature: Bold
EVs: 88 HP / 252 Def / 168 Spe

I was messing around with this set a little bit earlier. Even without Wacan berry, this set will not always be 2HKO'd by Adamant Victini's Fusion Bolt, unless Victini is choiced. It is, however, 2HKO'd all the time by Kyurem's Focus Blast (assuming no SpA drop from Draco Meteor). This makes Chople Berry seem like the better choice all around. The EV spread aims to outspeed Adamant Victini after the Speed drop from V-create; if Empoleon switches into a V-create on any common Adamant Victini, it is guaranteed to outspeed and OHKO in return with Surf. Flash Cannon will 2HKO Kyurem. 248 Speed EVs will outrun Jolly Victini as well, but you lose considerable bulk and won't fare so well against Kyurem unless switching into Draco Meteor. Outside of these two Pokemon, Empoleon notably also checks Fire types (including Arcanine) quite well. Particularly in the case of Arcanine, as Wild Charge just misses out on a 2HKO.

Worthy of note about this set, it's a lot better outside of Sun.

name: Agility
move 1: Agility
move 2: Hydro Pump / Surf
move 3: Ice Beam
move 4: Grass Knot
nature: Modest
ability: Torrent
item: Life Orb / Air Balloon
evs: 16 HP / 252 SpA / 240 Spe

This Agility set is copied straight out of the analysis (written by ParaChomp). In OU this really just doesn't quite pack enough punch to be worth it most of the time, especially now with Porygon2 to ruin your day. In UU, however, if Chansey can be eliminated ahead of time, Empoleon can make a strong cleaner late-game. Coverage is fairly standard but still good, hitting lots of common Pokemon for SE damage. STAB Hydro Pump is nothing to scoff at either, coming off of 111 base SpA.

Counters: Chansey. Even though Empoleon is immune to Toxic, it's walled absolutely by Chansey and can't break through. The situation is similar with Sigilyph after one or two boosts, but Sigilyph has the advantage of easily being able to put a burn onto Empoleon.
 
I gotta say, Specially Defensive Empoleon makes a fantastic partner with Physically Defensive Zapdos. They cover each other's weaknesses quite nicely, leaving Zapdos neutral to Empoleon's electric weakness. This changes of course with the release of Lightningrod Zapdos.
 
Roar should also be an option on the utility counter, otherwise Kingdra is just going to set up Dragon Dances all over you (Both SubDD and ChestoRest don't really mind the burn chance on Scald).
 
I'm running the Agility set with Surf (for accuracy) and LO and it's working very well, it makes for a fantastic late game sweeper once Chansey's been eliminated. Sadly Petaya isn't legal in Wifi yet on Smogon's server, but once it is I'll probably use the Gen 4 Sub/Agility/Surf/Ice Beam set.
 
The probelm with Sub/Petaya is that you lose coverage for a +1 attack boost. And in a meta as diverse as this, the coverage is usually better. Considering Empoleon is supposed to be cleaning up, most of the opposing team should be somewhat weakened, so the boost isn't really necessary.
 
I've been playing around with the Specially Defensive set from 4th Gen and it's amazing.

[SET]
name: Specially Defensive
move 1: Scald
move 2: Grass Knot
move 3: Stealth Rock
move 4: Roar
item: Leftovers
nature: Calm
evs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD

This allows Empoleon to almost single handedly fuck with SDS's SmashPass team as well as tank Draco Meteors from Kyurem like nobody's business. It can also survive a LO +1 Nidoking's Earth Power and KO back with Scald.
 
How well does empoleon takes focus blast? since almost every kyu i've seen uses it (for the rare but powerful Claw Sharpen one)
 
This allows Empoleon to almost single handedly fuck with SDS's SmashPass team as well as tank Draco Meteors from Kyurem like nobody's business. It can also survive a LO +1 Nidoking's Earth Power and KO back with Scald.
Click to expand...

+1 LO Earth Power from Sheer Force Nidoking vs. 252/252 Calm Empoleon: 107% - 126.3%

Just so I understand, sheer force boosts the base power of the actual attack, right? So earth power goes from being base 90 to base 117. I did the calcs with a base 117 attack.
 
Timid 252 LO Kyurem v. Calm 252/252 Empoleon: 65.6% - 77.4%
Timid 252 CS Kyurem v. Calm 252/252 Empoleon: 50.5% - 59.7%

So you can always survive and OHKO with Flash Cannon, but the lack of recovery means that you're crippled for a bit
 
Oglemi said:
I've been playing around with the Specially Defensive set from 4th Gen and it's amazing.

[SET]
name: Specially Defensive
move 1: Scald
move 2: Grass Knot
move 3: Stealth Rock
move 4: Roar
item: Leftovers
nature: Calm
evs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD

This allows Empoleon to almost single handedly fuck with SDS's SmashPass team as well as tank Draco Meteors from Kyurem like nobody's business. It can also survive a LO +1 Nidoking's Earth Power and KO back with Scald.
Click to expand...

I started running this along side Quagsire as well. My god. The two of them are nearly unbreakable, since Empoleon can laugh in Kyurem's face with impunity.
 
alphatron said:
+1 LO Earth Power from Sheer Force Nidoking vs. 252/252 Calm Empoleon: 107% - 126.3%

Just so I understand, sheer force boosts the base power of the actual attack, right? So earth power goes from being base 90 to base 117. I did the calcs with a base 117 attack.
Click to expand...
You're correct, I believe that's how Sheer Force works.

sax king said:
Timid 252 LO Kyurem v. Calm 252/252 Empoleon: 65.6% - 77.4%
Timid 252 CS Kyurem v. Calm 252/252 Empoleon: 50.5% - 59.7%

So you can always survive and OHKO with Flash Cannon, but the lack of recovery means that you're crippled for a bit
Click to expand...
You calcs for Kyurem are correct, but on what planet is a completely uninvested Empoleon OHKOing a Kyurem with 125/90/90 defensive stats?

0 SpA Empoleon Flash Cannon vs. 0/0 Kyurem: 52.7% - 62.9%

You need to do all of the calcs involved. As it stands, Empoleon can at best take out a weakened Kyurem, and lose over half it's own HP in the process.
 
That means you have a 60% of revenging kyurem (FB miss), that's not great stats for someting more fighting or rock types are able to do, and yeah, you have to take 2 hits (ice beam/blizzard/Draco Meteor + Focus Blast) before being able to hit back
 
alphatron said:
+1 LO Earth Power from Sheer Force Nidoking vs. 252/252 Calm Empoleon: 107% - 126.3%

Just so I understand, sheer force boosts the base power of the actual attack, right? So earth power goes from being base 90 to base 117. I did the calcs with a base 117 attack.
Click to expand...

Ahh my bad it must have been before the +1. Sorry for the confusion.

Still pretty impressive though.
 
Shroomisaur said:
You're correct, I believe that's how Sheer Force works.


You calcs for Kyurem are correct, but on what planet is a completely uninvested Empoleon OHKOing a Kyurem with 125/90/90 defensive stats?

0 SpA Empoleon Flash Cannon vs. 0/0 Kyurem: 52.7% - 62.9%
Click to expand...

Even though you only 2HKO Kyurem, it can barely hurt you in return and one Flash Cannon absolutely cripples it after Stealth Rock damage.
 
sax king said:
Timid 252 LO Kyurem v. Calm 252/252 Empoleon: 65.6% - 77.4%
Timid 252 CS Kyurem v. Calm 252/252 Empoleon: 50.5% - 59.7%
Click to expand...

Phox said:
Even though you only 2HKO Kyurem, it can barely hurt you in return
Click to expand...
...huh?

It does just as much damage as Empoleon does, and it's faster so would win 1 on 1 52% of the time (thanks to Focus Miss).

Empoleon is a great switch-in against Scarf or Specs variants, and easily the best Blizzard absorber. But even against scarfed Kyurem a 252/252+ Empoleon suffers a 2HKO from FB, so must be very cautious. Against non-choiced Kyurem, even if it comes in on Blizzard, it will be met with Focus Blast next turn before it can attack, which as you pointed out, will leave both Pokemon crippled.
 
Oglemi said:
I've been playing around with the Specially Defensive set from 4th Gen and it's amazing.

[SET]
name: Specially Defensive
move 1: Scald
move 2: Grass Knot
move 3: Stealth Rock
move 4: Roar
item: Leftovers
nature: Calm
evs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD

This allows Empoleon to almost single handedly fuck with SDS's SmashPass team as well as tank Draco Meteors from Kyurem like nobody's business. It
can also survive a LO +1 Nidoking's Earth Power and KO back with
Scald.
Click to expand...

BEST. SET. EVER!
 
Stainless Steel

Empoleon: Leftovers
Calm
252 HP / 4 Def /252 SpD
Torrent

Aqua Ring
Scald
Iron Defense
Grass Knot


Aqua Ring makes Empoleon heal as much as using Protect with Leftovers each turn. Scald makes it able to tank and status at the same time, Iron Defense makes it more than a simple Special Wall, and Grass Knot means it can hit Water Absorb/Storm Drain foes: Quagsire, Gastrodon, Poliwrath
 
Farewell said:
Stainless Steel

Empoleon: Leftovers
Calm
252 HP / 4 Def /252 SpD
Torrent

Aqua Ring
Scald
Iron Defense
Grass Knot


Aqua Ring makes Empoleon heal as much as using Protect with Leftovers each turn. Scald makes it able to tank and status at the same time, Iron Defense makes it more than a simple Special Wall, and Grass Knot means it can hit Water Absorb/Storm Drain foes: Quagsire, Gastrodon, Poliwrath
Click to expand...

Protect + lefties allows him to heal because it prevents the opponent from attacking. Aqua ring gives him 6% extra hp a turn, but he's most likely going to be taking an attack too.
 
Honestly hate the Scald set if only because it almost always does something through nothing but pure sheer hax. You're honestly hard pressed to find a way to stop it killing your momentum and pushing you around. Gen 5 is far kinder towards the penguin giving it plenty of things it can wall and the heavier emphasis on bulky set play making its lack of petaya set sweeper dealable with.
 
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