This thread is designed to give a brief overview of how the Dream World tier is different from normal OU play, and how different playstyles fare in this metagame.
Here, you should discuss how you think the Dream World metagame has changed since the banning of Garchomp and whether anything in the current metagame is too powerful, underlooked, or anything else along those lines.
How does the Dream World Tier differ from BW OU?
The Dream World tier allows every Pokemon to use its Dream World ability, regardless of whether or not it has been released yet. In addition, the three yet-unreleased Pokemon, Genesect, Keldeo, and Meloetta, are also allowed. Finally, egg move & DW ability combinations that are not possible in the current OU metagame are allowed. Two prime examples are Chlorophyll Venusaur with Power Whip and Sheer Force Feraligatr with Dragon Dance; because both of these moves are egg moves, both combinations are not yet possible because all DW starters released so far have been male. However, the Dream World tier is a metagame where unreleased combinations are usable, so both of these combinations are allowed. However, that does not mean that illegal egg move combinations (Ferrothorn with SR, Spikes, and Leech Seed, for example) are allowed. Another major factor in the Dream World tier is that Soul Dew is allowed, meaning that the Lati twins are top threats in the tier. Finally, the berries that are not yet available in-game are allowed in Dream World, allowing the use of things like SubPetaya Empoleon.
How popular are weather teams in Dream World?
To no one's surprise, weather teams see significant usage in Dream World. However, I would argue that weather is even more popular (and almost necessary) in Dream World than OU due to the additional threats running around. Looking at the top 10 presently, four are pure rain teams, four are pure sand teams, and two are mixed rain/sand teams, a style recently popularized by myself and Jargonite (Raj on the forums). This is not to say, however, that sun and even hail are unviable, they are simply harder to use like they are in normal OU.
Latios and Latias with Soul Dew? That's insanely broken!
Both Lati twins are top threats in the tier because they are allowed to carry Soul Dew as a held item, giving them the Choice Specs boost without limiting move choice. Thankfully, Dream World gives us two excellent additional checks; Shadow Tag Chandelure and Choice Scarf Genesect. The former can trap weakened Lati@s and kill them with Shadow Ball, while CS Genesect forces both out under threat of a Download-boosted U-Turn. And finally, Tyranitar is as common as ever, because sand remains a viable playstyle even without Garchomp, and with its sand-boosted SpDef, it can take Draco Meteors and Surfs and KO both Latis with Pursuit.
Chandelure with Shadow Tag too? This tier is overpowered.
With the preconception of Shadow Tag as the ultimate ability thanks to 3rd and 4th generation Wobbuffet, you might expect a Pokemon with 145 SpAtk to be broken, as it can trap and kill so many Pokemon. Luckily, neither Sand nor Rain, the most popular playstyles, is kind to it. Tyranitar takes negligible damage from even Energy Ball and can KO back with Pursuit, while everlasting rain causes its Fire-type moves to be halved in power, allowing Pokemon like Jirachi to take it on more easily.
Do the pinch Berries often make an appearance in battles?
Although all of the as-of-yet unreleased berries are indeed allowed, they are rare. SubSD Garchomp holding a Salac Berry was a monster, allowing it to beat Genesect and served as one of the best late-game sweepers. However, as Chomp is banned now, there are few things that can successfully utilize a pinch Berry. SubPetaya Sceptile might be one of the best choices, as its ability, Unburden, doubles its Speed when it consumes the Berry. A similar set could be made with Hitmonlee, which also gets Unburden. Lastly, slow Pokemon with the Sturdy ability often carry a Custap Berry to ensure that they move first once they are brought down to 1 HP. Forretress is often found carrying Custap to ensure that it gets at least two layers of hazards up. Other Custap users are used to set up Rocks and then Explode (Golem, Gigalith) while Aggron often carries one so that it can Metal Burst something, then Head Smash or set up SR before dying.
Dream World sounds like a load of BS based on a fairytale metagame.
Ultimately, why should I play in Dream World?
The Dream World tier has some characteristics that are distinctly different from OU play. It's a faster-paced metagame in general, focusing more on overpowering your opponent with offensive threats. Stall doesn't work nearly as well, as Genesect and Keldeo are both good stallbreakers, and thanks to Soul Dew's legality, Latios and Latias often run Psyshock just to beat Blissey. Slow but bulky set-up Pokemon such as Conkeldurr and Reuniclus also don't work nearly as well in the fast-paced offensive Dream World metagame. Secondly, Dream World is in fact the second-most played tier, having a significantly greater number of battles than UU. People playing on Dream World have a different mentality than some OU players who just copy another good team so that they can reach voting requirements. Because Dream World has no suspect tests, people on the ladder tend to compete more to learn than to reach reqs, which I believe is a healthy thing for this metagame. Finally, one could argue that Dream World represents what the OU metagame could become in the future; there are no guarantees regarding Dream World releases, of course, but it can be seen as a sort of futuristic metagame. Dream World also provides players with many more options to explore, with the immediate inclusion of all of the special abilities, items, berries, and Pokemon that have not yet been released by Game Freak.
So why isn't the tier incredibly unbalanced, after all that?
In my opinion, at least, the various Pokemon and combinations allowed in Dream World conveniently check each other nicely. To demonstrate this point, let's briefly cover some of the top offensive presences in Dream World:
Latios and Latias with Soul Dew are among the top, if not the best offensive presences in Dream World. Being able to switch moves while retaining the power of Choice Specs is greatly appreciated, and Latios and Latias will often carry Draco Meteor, Surf, Thunder, HP Fire, and Calm Mind. Despite the 1.5x boost to both SpAtk and SpDef, both Latios and Latias are checked by Genesect, who forces both out with the threat of OHKOing with U-Turn. In addition, both can be revenged by Chandelure's Shadow Ball if they are down ao about 50%. Tyranitar is a good check as always and can kill both twins with Pursuit, but must be wary of switching in on Surf. Other Pursuit users such as Weavile and Metagross are rare but serve the same purpose. Finally, Jirachi and Ferrothorn are good Lati@s checks in Rain, which is common. On the flipside, both Latios and Latias are solid checks to opposing Thundurus, as even boosted HP Ice will fail to OHKO.
Genesect, the last Pokemon in the National Pokedex, serves as a fantastic check to many of Dream World's top-tier threats when equipped with a Choice Scarf. It has an excellent special movepool, having acces to Thunder, Thunderbolt, Flamethrower, Ice Beam, and Bug Buzz. On the physical spectrum, Genesect gets STAB U-Turn that is invaluable to force force Lati@s and Tyranitar out. On top of that, its excellent ability, Download, gives one of its attacking stats a 50% whenever it switches in. Coupled with 120/120 base attacking stats, Genesect can reliably revenge a host of threatening Pokemon and serves as an excellent offensive pivot. On the other hand, if locked into Flamethrower, Ice Beam, or Bug Buzz, it is easily disposed of by Chandelure, which can easily OHKO Genesect with a STAB Fire-type move.
Chandelure is the most reliable revenge killer in Dream World thanks to its ability, Shadow Tag. With 145 base SpAtk, it has the ability to trap and kill many Pokemon in Dream World, including Ferrothorn. With Fire Blast / Shadow Ball / Energy Ball / HP Ice, Chandelure can handle a host of Pokemon and ensure a kill. HP Fighting can also be used to hit Tyranitar hard if you are using another weather. Genesect locked into one of the moves outlined earlier is easily taken care of by Chandelure. It traps and kills Ferrothorn, which is as common a sight in DW as it is in OU. Finally, it kills Genesect locked into Flamethrower, Ice Beam, or Bug Buzz, and can also take out weakened Tyranitar or Politoed. In return, however, after Chandelure makes a kill, Tyranitar can come in and Pursuit it to death.
Our favorite sand inducer is back in Dream World, back again to start Sandstorm. With its excellent boosted Special Defense, it can trap and kill the likes of Latios, Latias, and Chandelure while supporting Sand teams simultaneously. However, Dream World did bring about two Pokemon that Tyranitar does not at all enjoy facing; Genesect and Keldeo. The former can threaten to do a lot of damage with Download-boosted U-Turn while the latter can OHKO outright with Secret Sword. Finally, like in OU, Tyranitar has problems with the popularity of Mach Punch from Conkeldurr and in DW, Techniloom.
Like Tyranitar, Politoed makes a huge impact on the Dream World metagame by summoning permanent rain. Like in OU, it is able to fire off extremely powerful Hydro Pumps and Surfs, especially when equipped with Choice Specs. However, spamming Surf/Hydro Pump is less effective in DW due to the popularity of Soul Dew Latios and Latias, both of which can sponge even Modest Specs Hydro Pumps with ease and threaten Politoed back with Thunder or Draco Meteor.
Thanks to the popularity of rain in Dream World, Ferrothorn remains a top choice as a defensive Pokemon. With the ability to check top rain threats such as Latios, Latias, and Thundurus, and with a great typing that lets it sponge boosted Water-type attacks, Ferrothorn is a solid choice against both rain and sand. However, one thing in Dream World puts a thorn in Ferrothorn's side; the existence of Shadow Tag Chandelure, which ensures a fiery death for Ferrothorn unless it opts to hold a Shed Shell. Nevertheless, it still serves as a reliable wall and Pokemon to set up hazards, and spread paralysis and Leech Seeds. Specially defensive Jirachi serves a similar role, so choosing between them can be difficult. In general, Ferrothorn tends to work decently against both Sand and Rain while Jirachi works better against most Rain teams but doesn't do well against Sand.
In the high-powered, fast-paced Dream World metagame, defensive Pokemon are almost all at a disadvantage compared to OU. With Latios and Latias rampant, however, Jirachi remains an excellent candidate for a specially defensive wall. It can sponge Draco Meteors easily and isn't 2HKOed by Rain-boosted Surf. Like in OU, Jirachi can carry its choice of paralysis move - Thunder Wave, Thunder, or Body Slam, and perform a similar paraflinching role. Calm Mind Jirachi has also made a comeback under Rain, as its Fire weakness is negated, allowing it to take most special attacks with ease after a Calm Mind or two. As stated earlier, the choice between Jirachi or Ferrothorn as a defensive Pokemon can be difficult. Although Ferrothorn boasts better resistances, Jirachi has a healing move in Wish that allows it to take on repeated assaults from the Lati twins more easily. Ferrothorn tends to work well against both Rain and Sand, and Jirachi will work better against most Rain teams but not fare as well against sand staples like Gliscor and Excadrill.
Along with Genesect, Keldeo is the other yet-unreleased Pokemon, making it legal in only Dream World. It is effective in both Sand and Rain and serves as a capable wallbreaker thanks to its signature move, Secret Sword, which allows it to beat Chansey and Blissey with ease. It also decimates Skarmory and Gliscor with Surf, and can KO slightly weakened Ferrothorn with Secret Sword. It is useful against all weather teams because it threatens all four of the weather starters. Tyranitar is OHKOed by Secret Sword, while Politoed can usually be 2HKOed and cannot do anything back to Keldeo. Ninetales is hit hard by both of Keldeo's primary STAB moves while it cannot do much back, and the rare Abomasnow is also OHKOed by Secret Sword. Unfortunately, Keldeo cannot beat the top two offensive threats, Latios and Latias, even if it carries HP Ice or Ghost. In addition, it will struggle to beat Jellicent even with a super-effective Hidden Power and Calm Mind, as it's likely to die of Toxic damage first, and is also susceptible to being revenged by Genesect's Thunder.
Long regarded as a gimmick, Ditto fills a unique niche in DW. Its Dream World ability, Imposter, acts as an automatic Transform when Ditto enters battle, becoming a carbon copy of the opponent with the exception of its HP stat. Imposter also differentiates itself from Transform in that it copies the opponent's stat boosts; for this reason, Ditto equipped with a Choice Scarf can be used to easily revenge anything that has gotten too many boosts under its belt, especially Dragon Dancers and Shell Smashers. Suddenly, SmashPassing a +6/+6/+6 doesn't look like such a great option, and seeing a Ditto on the opposing team means that using boosting moves isn't such a great idea. However, because Ditto must carry a Scarf to avoid speed ties, it is virtually useless against defensively-oriented Pokemon. Becoming a Scarf Blissey or Ferrothorn will not accomplish much. Finally, keep in mind that Ditto will not copy its opponent's IVs; you must take that into account if you're planning to transform into something with HP Ice, for example, but you get HP Dark instead. Lastly, Imposter and Transform don't work on Substitutes, so switch Ditto in on anything with an intact Sub.
Here, you should discuss how you think the Dream World metagame has changed since the banning of Garchomp and whether anything in the current metagame is too powerful, underlooked, or anything else along those lines.
How does the Dream World Tier differ from BW OU?
The Dream World tier allows every Pokemon to use its Dream World ability, regardless of whether or not it has been released yet. In addition, the three yet-unreleased Pokemon, Genesect, Keldeo, and Meloetta, are also allowed. Finally, egg move & DW ability combinations that are not possible in the current OU metagame are allowed. Two prime examples are Chlorophyll Venusaur with Power Whip and Sheer Force Feraligatr with Dragon Dance; because both of these moves are egg moves, both combinations are not yet possible because all DW starters released so far have been male. However, the Dream World tier is a metagame where unreleased combinations are usable, so both of these combinations are allowed. However, that does not mean that illegal egg move combinations (Ferrothorn with SR, Spikes, and Leech Seed, for example) are allowed. Another major factor in the Dream World tier is that Soul Dew is allowed, meaning that the Lati twins are top threats in the tier. Finally, the berries that are not yet available in-game are allowed in Dream World, allowing the use of things like SubPetaya Empoleon.
How popular are weather teams in Dream World?
To no one's surprise, weather teams see significant usage in Dream World. However, I would argue that weather is even more popular (and almost necessary) in Dream World than OU due to the additional threats running around. Looking at the top 10 presently, four are pure rain teams, four are pure sand teams, and two are mixed rain/sand teams, a style recently popularized by myself and Jargonite (Raj on the forums). This is not to say, however, that sun and even hail are unviable, they are simply harder to use like they are in normal OU.
Latios and Latias with Soul Dew? That's insanely broken!
Both Lati twins are top threats in the tier because they are allowed to carry Soul Dew as a held item, giving them the Choice Specs boost without limiting move choice. Thankfully, Dream World gives us two excellent additional checks; Shadow Tag Chandelure and Choice Scarf Genesect. The former can trap weakened Lati@s and kill them with Shadow Ball, while CS Genesect forces both out under threat of a Download-boosted U-Turn. And finally, Tyranitar is as common as ever, because sand remains a viable playstyle even without Garchomp, and with its sand-boosted SpDef, it can take Draco Meteors and Surfs and KO both Latis with Pursuit.
Chandelure with Shadow Tag too? This tier is overpowered.
With the preconception of Shadow Tag as the ultimate ability thanks to 3rd and 4th generation Wobbuffet, you might expect a Pokemon with 145 SpAtk to be broken, as it can trap and kill so many Pokemon. Luckily, neither Sand nor Rain, the most popular playstyles, is kind to it. Tyranitar takes negligible damage from even Energy Ball and can KO back with Pursuit, while everlasting rain causes its Fire-type moves to be halved in power, allowing Pokemon like Jirachi to take it on more easily.
Do the pinch Berries often make an appearance in battles?
Although all of the as-of-yet unreleased berries are indeed allowed, they are rare. SubSD Garchomp holding a Salac Berry was a monster, allowing it to beat Genesect and served as one of the best late-game sweepers. However, as Chomp is banned now, there are few things that can successfully utilize a pinch Berry. SubPetaya Sceptile might be one of the best choices, as its ability, Unburden, doubles its Speed when it consumes the Berry. A similar set could be made with Hitmonlee, which also gets Unburden. Lastly, slow Pokemon with the Sturdy ability often carry a Custap Berry to ensure that they move first once they are brought down to 1 HP. Forretress is often found carrying Custap to ensure that it gets at least two layers of hazards up. Other Custap users are used to set up Rocks and then Explode (Golem, Gigalith) while Aggron often carries one so that it can Metal Burst something, then Head Smash or set up SR before dying.
Dream World sounds like a load of BS based on a fairytale metagame.
Hawkstar said:
Ultimately, why should I play in Dream World?
The Dream World tier has some characteristics that are distinctly different from OU play. It's a faster-paced metagame in general, focusing more on overpowering your opponent with offensive threats. Stall doesn't work nearly as well, as Genesect and Keldeo are both good stallbreakers, and thanks to Soul Dew's legality, Latios and Latias often run Psyshock just to beat Blissey. Slow but bulky set-up Pokemon such as Conkeldurr and Reuniclus also don't work nearly as well in the fast-paced offensive Dream World metagame. Secondly, Dream World is in fact the second-most played tier, having a significantly greater number of battles than UU. People playing on Dream World have a different mentality than some OU players who just copy another good team so that they can reach voting requirements. Because Dream World has no suspect tests, people on the ladder tend to compete more to learn than to reach reqs, which I believe is a healthy thing for this metagame. Finally, one could argue that Dream World represents what the OU metagame could become in the future; there are no guarantees regarding Dream World releases, of course, but it can be seen as a sort of futuristic metagame. Dream World also provides players with many more options to explore, with the immediate inclusion of all of the special abilities, items, berries, and Pokemon that have not yet been released by Game Freak.
So why isn't the tier incredibly unbalanced, after all that?
In my opinion, at least, the various Pokemon and combinations allowed in Dream World conveniently check each other nicely. To demonstrate this point, let's briefly cover some of the top offensive presences in Dream World:
Latios and Latias with Soul Dew are among the top, if not the best offensive presences in Dream World. Being able to switch moves while retaining the power of Choice Specs is greatly appreciated, and Latios and Latias will often carry Draco Meteor, Surf, Thunder, HP Fire, and Calm Mind. Despite the 1.5x boost to both SpAtk and SpDef, both Latios and Latias are checked by Genesect, who forces both out with the threat of OHKOing with U-Turn. In addition, both can be revenged by Chandelure's Shadow Ball if they are down ao about 50%. Tyranitar is a good check as always and can kill both twins with Pursuit, but must be wary of switching in on Surf. Other Pursuit users such as Weavile and Metagross are rare but serve the same purpose. Finally, Jirachi and Ferrothorn are good Lati@s checks in Rain, which is common. On the flipside, both Latios and Latias are solid checks to opposing Thundurus, as even boosted HP Ice will fail to OHKO.
Genesect, the last Pokemon in the National Pokedex, serves as a fantastic check to many of Dream World's top-tier threats when equipped with a Choice Scarf. It has an excellent special movepool, having acces to Thunder, Thunderbolt, Flamethrower, Ice Beam, and Bug Buzz. On the physical spectrum, Genesect gets STAB U-Turn that is invaluable to force force Lati@s and Tyranitar out. On top of that, its excellent ability, Download, gives one of its attacking stats a 50% whenever it switches in. Coupled with 120/120 base attacking stats, Genesect can reliably revenge a host of threatening Pokemon and serves as an excellent offensive pivot. On the other hand, if locked into Flamethrower, Ice Beam, or Bug Buzz, it is easily disposed of by Chandelure, which can easily OHKO Genesect with a STAB Fire-type move.
Chandelure is the most reliable revenge killer in Dream World thanks to its ability, Shadow Tag. With 145 base SpAtk, it has the ability to trap and kill many Pokemon in Dream World, including Ferrothorn. With Fire Blast / Shadow Ball / Energy Ball / HP Ice, Chandelure can handle a host of Pokemon and ensure a kill. HP Fighting can also be used to hit Tyranitar hard if you are using another weather. Genesect locked into one of the moves outlined earlier is easily taken care of by Chandelure. It traps and kills Ferrothorn, which is as common a sight in DW as it is in OU. Finally, it kills Genesect locked into Flamethrower, Ice Beam, or Bug Buzz, and can also take out weakened Tyranitar or Politoed. In return, however, after Chandelure makes a kill, Tyranitar can come in and Pursuit it to death.
Our favorite sand inducer is back in Dream World, back again to start Sandstorm. With its excellent boosted Special Defense, it can trap and kill the likes of Latios, Latias, and Chandelure while supporting Sand teams simultaneously. However, Dream World did bring about two Pokemon that Tyranitar does not at all enjoy facing; Genesect and Keldeo. The former can threaten to do a lot of damage with Download-boosted U-Turn while the latter can OHKO outright with Secret Sword. Finally, like in OU, Tyranitar has problems with the popularity of Mach Punch from Conkeldurr and in DW, Techniloom.
Like Tyranitar, Politoed makes a huge impact on the Dream World metagame by summoning permanent rain. Like in OU, it is able to fire off extremely powerful Hydro Pumps and Surfs, especially when equipped with Choice Specs. However, spamming Surf/Hydro Pump is less effective in DW due to the popularity of Soul Dew Latios and Latias, both of which can sponge even Modest Specs Hydro Pumps with ease and threaten Politoed back with Thunder or Draco Meteor.
Thanks to the popularity of rain in Dream World, Ferrothorn remains a top choice as a defensive Pokemon. With the ability to check top rain threats such as Latios, Latias, and Thundurus, and with a great typing that lets it sponge boosted Water-type attacks, Ferrothorn is a solid choice against both rain and sand. However, one thing in Dream World puts a thorn in Ferrothorn's side; the existence of Shadow Tag Chandelure, which ensures a fiery death for Ferrothorn unless it opts to hold a Shed Shell. Nevertheless, it still serves as a reliable wall and Pokemon to set up hazards, and spread paralysis and Leech Seeds. Specially defensive Jirachi serves a similar role, so choosing between them can be difficult. In general, Ferrothorn tends to work decently against both Sand and Rain while Jirachi works better against most Rain teams but doesn't do well against Sand.
In the high-powered, fast-paced Dream World metagame, defensive Pokemon are almost all at a disadvantage compared to OU. With Latios and Latias rampant, however, Jirachi remains an excellent candidate for a specially defensive wall. It can sponge Draco Meteors easily and isn't 2HKOed by Rain-boosted Surf. Like in OU, Jirachi can carry its choice of paralysis move - Thunder Wave, Thunder, or Body Slam, and perform a similar paraflinching role. Calm Mind Jirachi has also made a comeback under Rain, as its Fire weakness is negated, allowing it to take most special attacks with ease after a Calm Mind or two. As stated earlier, the choice between Jirachi or Ferrothorn as a defensive Pokemon can be difficult. Although Ferrothorn boasts better resistances, Jirachi has a healing move in Wish that allows it to take on repeated assaults from the Lati twins more easily. Ferrothorn tends to work well against both Rain and Sand, and Jirachi will work better against most Rain teams but not fare as well against sand staples like Gliscor and Excadrill.
Along with Genesect, Keldeo is the other yet-unreleased Pokemon, making it legal in only Dream World. It is effective in both Sand and Rain and serves as a capable wallbreaker thanks to its signature move, Secret Sword, which allows it to beat Chansey and Blissey with ease. It also decimates Skarmory and Gliscor with Surf, and can KO slightly weakened Ferrothorn with Secret Sword. It is useful against all weather teams because it threatens all four of the weather starters. Tyranitar is OHKOed by Secret Sword, while Politoed can usually be 2HKOed and cannot do anything back to Keldeo. Ninetales is hit hard by both of Keldeo's primary STAB moves while it cannot do much back, and the rare Abomasnow is also OHKOed by Secret Sword. Unfortunately, Keldeo cannot beat the top two offensive threats, Latios and Latias, even if it carries HP Ice or Ghost. In addition, it will struggle to beat Jellicent even with a super-effective Hidden Power and Calm Mind, as it's likely to die of Toxic damage first, and is also susceptible to being revenged by Genesect's Thunder.
Long regarded as a gimmick, Ditto fills a unique niche in DW. Its Dream World ability, Imposter, acts as an automatic Transform when Ditto enters battle, becoming a carbon copy of the opponent with the exception of its HP stat. Imposter also differentiates itself from Transform in that it copies the opponent's stat boosts; for this reason, Ditto equipped with a Choice Scarf can be used to easily revenge anything that has gotten too many boosts under its belt, especially Dragon Dancers and Shell Smashers. Suddenly, SmashPassing a +6/+6/+6 doesn't look like such a great option, and seeing a Ditto on the opposing team means that using boosting moves isn't such a great idea. However, because Ditto must carry a Scarf to avoid speed ties, it is virtually useless against defensively-oriented Pokemon. Becoming a Scarf Blissey or Ferrothorn will not accomplish much. Finally, keep in mind that Ditto will not copy its opponent's IVs; you must take that into account if you're planning to transform into something with HP Ice, for example, but you get HP Dark instead. Lastly, Imposter and Transform don't work on Substitutes, so switch Ditto in on anything with an intact Sub.
