Dragonite (Sub Punch)

[Buzzcut]

Topic Title: Dragonite (Sub Punch)

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/dragonite

[SET]
name: Sub Punch
move 1: Substitute
move 2: Focus Punch
move 3: Draco Meteor
move 4: Flamethrower / Roost / Thunderbolt
item: Leftovers / Life Orb (Roost is a must with LO)
nature: Brave
evs: 168 Atk / 84 Def / 252 SpA

Why this set deserves to be on-site:
-Granted, this is similar to the current "MixNite" currently on-site already, but this is played very differently and adds a new dimension to how Dragonite can be played, which I explain in further depth below.
-When played correctly, this will take down 2-3 members of an opposing team.

Additional Comments:
-Leftovers is listed to give Dragonite more of a sweep, but this takes away from the bulk and power of the set.
-Roost is an option to add to Dragonite's survivability, whereas Thunderbolt hits Gyarados harder while still hitting Skarmory for super effective damage and Scizor for neutral damage.
-Leftovers spread: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 SpA

Teammates and Counters:
-Set-up sweepers such as SD Lucario make a fine teammate. Wish passers greatly help if you would like a second chance for Dragonite to destroy another team.
-Cresselia can survive every move on the set and hit back with ice beam which is a 2HKO after SR. Bronzong takes about 50% from flamethrower and can gyro ball back, with taking even less damage if it's heatproof. Bulky phazers can come in after a Poke has died and roar Dragonite away, leaving it at 75% after 2 SR's and one Sub.


I feel like I need to justify this set and explain how it is not MixNite. MixNite does not have the safety of a substitute, which means it can be paralyzed or burned, which greatly hinders the effectiveness of the set. However, MixNite is easier to switch in, as it counters more (Jolly Ttar, Celebi, Zapdos) which Dragonite does not outspeed with the given EV's. This Dragonite needs to switch in on something that can not break the sub (Vaporeon without Ice Beam or Roar, Blissey without Ice Beam, defensive Gliscor, a choice Earthquake, and the list goes on). Once behind a sub, predictions (usually) become easier, as you can pick a suitable move based on the Pokemon that switches in.

This Dragonite also does not have a recovery move, as each move is vital for the efficiency of the set. This means that a spinner and/or wish support is very helpful; more so than on other sets. With an SR weakness, a Life Orb recoil, possible Sandstorm, this set dies quickly, which leaves White Herb is an option so you are not effected by the Special Attack loss.

One last advantage is that it's harder to revenge-kill, as if you get a kill while still behind a substitute (such as outspeeding Magnezone and killing with flamethrower), a faster Pokemon would have to take a hit to break the substitute.

 

[Random Pizzaman]

So what exactly is the point of the set? Mainly being a special set (tons of SpA), why use Sub + Focus Punch when Superpower breaks Blissey just as easily (Outrage works too). Mixnite is much better imo.
Also, neither of the items are good for this set. Sub sets work best with Leftovers, especially on a bulky pokemon like Dragonite, who dies too easily with SR, sub and LO. And White is just bad.

 

[SJCrew]

So what exactly is the point of the set?

Dude...that's what the entire set description is about. If you scare off something that can't kill you, you get a free sub and the prediction game automatically works in your favor. This is great for something as slow as Dragonite with such beastly coverage. I'd imagine cookie-cutter stall teams to be horrified of this thing.

Matter of fact, if Shoddy were working at all for me, this would probably be one of my favorite sets to use in the new metagame. If I ever get the chance to test it out, I'll be back with results and maybe some logs.

 

[Darkmalice]

I've got a few different thoughts on this set.

Why does this set have HP EVs i.e. what's their benefit against specific Pokemon? Like do they allow your Sub to survive a certain hit? You'll need to mention such benefits.

Regardless, I rather have those 212 HP in Atk. This set seems to revolve around forcing a switch, Subbing on the hit, and then hitting the switch-in with either Focus Punch or Draco Meteor. Given this, both attacks should be backed with sufficient EVs. Draco Meteor hits everything neutral except Steels, and no Steels resist Focus Punch. The only common Steels that won't avoid a 2HKO with 212 Atk EVs are Skarmory and Forretress (standard Bronzong is 2HKOed always with SR and Leftovers). This assumes LO. Forretress stands no chance at taking down Dragonite. Thunderbolt deserves a slash in the last slot, because it takes down Skarmory and Gyarados, who outspeeds Dragonite, has Intimidate, and resists Focus Punch.


Most important point: I question the use of this set. White Herb Focus Punch deals less damage than LO Superpower. This would lead me to think to remove White Herb as an option, but then LO + Sub + SR weakness + SS will rapidly drain your health away. Whilst the power of LO Focus Punch is tempting, the Pokemon who aren't 2HKOed by either Draco Meteor or Superpower/ White Herb Focus Punch are OHKOed by Fire Blast. If you are trying to use a more defensive approach to Dragonite i.e. to avoid status, no one is going to try to status Dragonite in the first place, as all status users would take a hefty blow from MixNite or this Nite. If you are actually trying to be more defensive, you need Roost in the last slot, else your HP will drain too quickly. Even then, I'm not sure if the set is worth yet, given that MixNite can both Roost and hit harder than this one.

 

[Buzzcut]

So what exactly is the point of the set? Mainly being a special set (tons of SpA), why use Sub + Focus Punch when Superpower breaks Blissey just as easily (Outrage works too). Mixnite is much better imo.
Also, neither of the items are good for this set. Sub sets work best with Leftovers, especially on a bulky pokemon like Dragonite, who dies too easily with SR, sub and LO. And White is just bad.

MixNite is more of a hit and run sort of Poke, which I personally hate as one bad prediction is another 25% off your health due to SR. This is aimed to sit in there and do as much damage as possible until it dies: which includes killing revenge killers and walls, not just breaking walls. This Dragonite is harder to switch in so that it can do its job, but once it does it wreaks havoc. Hypothetically, if you switch into a Vaporeon after a Poke dies, your opponent can assume it's a MixNite and try to get some sort of status on it. You sub, it uses toxic on a sub, and you can then take it out without it breaking your sub.

Focus Punch obviously hits harder than Superpower without the draw back of a defense drop (attack drop rarely matters in this case). With the damage calculations I did, I didn't actually need Attack EV's to get any OHKO's, as Bold Blissey, Ttar, and most Heatrans die to a Focus Punch without any EV's. This allows me to Maximize SpA, which makes sense as 2 of the 3 attacks are Special based.

I agree that, if possible, Leftovers would be a better option than both. But as it is, without Life Orb you need to add more EV's into attack to get the same results as you get with a Life Orb (252 Attack EV's isn't even a secure OHKO on bold Blissey after SR). White Herb is what I currently use before I did damage calculations and you are under estimating it. It allows me 2 full-powered Draco Meteors, which is a possible situation with how I play this Dragonite. Leftovers may deserve a slash, but I really think that a Life Orb is the way this set is best played.

Although this set will never really be standard, it is still very viable. Much more viable than the current CB Dragonite, but I didn't post this to debate removing sets.

I've got a few different thoughts on this set.

Why does this set have HP EVs i.e. what's their benefit against specific Pokemon? Like do they allow your Sub to survive a certain hit? You'll need to mention such benefits.

Regardless, I rather have those 212 HP in Atk. This set seems to revolve around forcing a switch, Subbing on the hit, and then hitting the switch-in with either Focus Punch or Draco Meteor. Given this, both attacks should be backed with sufficient EVs. Draco Meteor hits everything neutral except Steels, and no Steels resist Focus Punch. The only common Steels that won't avoid a 2HKO with 212 Atk EVs are Skarmory and Forretress (standard Bronzong is 2HKOed always with SR and Leftovers). This assumes LO. Forretress stands no chance at taking down Dragonite. Thunderbolt deserves a slash in the last slot, because it takes down Skarmory and Gyarados, who outspeeds Dragonite, has Intimidate, and resists Focus Punch.


Most important point: I question the use of this set. White Herb Focus Punch deals less damage than LO Superpower. This would lead me to think to remove White Herb as an option, but then LO + Sub + SR weakness + SS will rapidly drain your health away. Whilst the power of LO Focus Punch is tempting, the Pokemon who aren't 2HKOed by either Draco Meteor or Superpower/ White Herb Focus Punch are OHKOed by Fire Blast. If you are trying to use a more defensive approach to Dragonite i.e. to avoid status, no one is going to try to status Dragonite in the first place, as all status users would take a hefty blow from MixNite or this Nite. If you are actually trying to be more defensive, you need Roost in the last slot, else your HP will drain too quickly. Even then, I'm not sure if the set is worth yet, given that MixNite can both Roost and hit harder than this one.

I added the HP EV's to add to the Bulk of Dragonite. In Hindsight, maybe they would be better in speed as you should always be behind a sub anyway (200 speed is listed under a MixNite, which could carry over). Basically, for the most part I didn't really know what to do with the EV's as I don't know what mark of Attack would be useful and what I'm not considering. Most Heatran, Bold Blissey, and Ttar are all OHKO's with the current EV's, so I don't know why I would need to add more in Atk specifically. I could add more Attack EV's so that even Torment Tran is OHKO'd.

Forretress can always explode on Dragonite to break the sub, which would cause a revenge killer to come in and force Dragonite out. I've been in that situation way too many times myself. But yes, Thunderbolt is a good option.

Honestly, I've been lazy when using this Dragonite and just recently thought of the EV's (I think I was just lazy and put in 128/128 just for the sake of doing it), so clearly they aren't set properly. I would appreciate some help with damage calculations to find specific marks if I've missed some. As I said in the original post, with a White Herb, you need to maximize both attack stats to hit hard, and this would be the same with Leftovers as well. That could potentially work better.

 

[shrang]

I have tried this set before (Way back when), and it didn't impress me much at all. Maybe I was too much of a noob back then. However, SubPunch Nite has been brought up many, many times in the Creative Movesets Thread, and it hasn't received good feedback either. Logs would be good, I reckon.

 

[boredomisbliss]

I don't really see the point of this set much. Dragonite has access to Superpower, which should be doing enough damage with only 30 less base power than Focus Punch. Not to mention you can use it whether or not you're behind a Sub. I can see why a "Substitute MixNite" would be nice, for the reasons listed. However, consider the damage taken from Stealth Rock + Substitute - that's 50%. Plus possibly sandstorm is another 6.25%. Plus another turn of sand and Life Orb Recoil - that's a lot of damage right there.

What I'd like to see is Roost slashed in, possibly over your fire move. Dragon + Fighting already has perfect coverage, so you don't really need a fire attack; Focus Punch should already hurt basically any steel like a mofo. Yes you lose coverage against Skarmory, but Skarmory should already be wary of Fire moves and caution against switching in anyways. Roost adds longevity and allows you to come back in against something you're having trouble with.

 

[Buzzcut]

I have tried this set before (Way back when), and it didn't impress me much at all. Maybe I was too much of a noob back then. However, SubPunch Nite has been brought up many, many times in the Creative Movesets Thread, and it hasn't received good feedback either. Logs would be good, I reckon.

As I tried to emphasize, it's harder to find something to come in on safely than MixNite. I'll work on finding some useful situations for it now.

I don't really see the point of this set much. Dragonite has access to Superpower, which should be doing enough damage with only 30 less base power than Focus Punch. Not to mention you can use it whether or not you're behind a Sub. I can see why a "Substitute MixNite" would be nice, for the reasons listed. However, consider the damage taken from Stealth Rock + Substitute - that's 50%. Plus possibly sandstorm is another 6.25%. Plus another turn of sand and Life Orb Recoil - that's a lot of damage right there.

What I'd like to see is Roost slashed in, possibly over your fire move. Dragon + Fighting already has perfect coverage, so you don't really need a fire attack; Focus Punch should already hurt basically any steel like a mofo. Yes you lose coverage against Skarmory, but Skarmory should already be wary of Fire moves and caution against switching in anyways. Roost adds longevity and allows you to come back in against something you're having trouble with.

Yeah it does take a lot of residual damage, granted, but it's played differently from MixNite. The only real reason I ever had Flamethrower was for Scizor and Forretress, but I added a slash for Thunderbolt and Roost, although I don't know which should be the primary option.

Edit: Second game I played after posting this:

Buzzcut switched in Dragonite (lvl 100 Dragonite ♀).
Dragonite used Substitute.
Dragonite lost 25% of its health.
Dragonite made a substitute!
Vaporeon used Wish.
Vaporeon made a wish!
Dragonite's leftovers restored its health a little!
Dragonite restored 6% of its health.
Vaporeon's leftovers restored its health a little!
Vaporeon restored 6% of its health.

Dragonite is tightening its focus!
Vaporeon used Protect.
Vaporeon protected itself!
Dragonite used Focus Punch.
Vaporeon protected itself!
The wish came true!
Vaporeon restored 50% of its health.
Dragonite's leftovers restored its health a little!
Dragonite restored 6% of its health.
Vaporeon's leftovers restored its health a little!
Vaporeon restored 6% of its health.

Dragonite is tightening its focus!
Vaporeon used Hidden Power.
The substitute took damage for Dragonite!
Dragonite used Focus Punch.
Vaporeon lost 37% of its health.
Dragonite's leftovers restored its health a little!
Dragonite restored 6% of its health.
Vaporeon's leftovers restored its health a little!
Vaporeon restored 6% of its health.

Dragonite used Draco Meteor.
Vaporeon lost 42% of its health.
Opponent's Vaporeon fainted.
Dragonite's special attack was harshly lowered.
Dragonite's leftovers restored its health a little!
Dragonite restored 6% of its health.

Opponent switched in Heatran (lvl 100 Heatran ♂).
Pointed stones dug into Heatran.
Heatran lost 12% of its health.
Dragonite is tightening its focus!
Heatran used Hidden Power.
The substitute took damage for Dragonite!
Dragonite's substitute faded!
Dragonite used Focus Punch.
It's super effective!
Heatran lost 88% of its health.
Opponent's Heatran fainted.

Opponent switched in Mamoswine (lvl 100 Mamoswine ♂).
Pointed stones dug into Mamoswine.
Mamoswine lost 12% of its health.
Mamoswine used Earthquake.
It doesn't affect Dragonite...
Dragonite used Flamethrower.
It's super effective!
A critical hit!
Mamoswine lost 55% of its health.
Opponent's Mamoswine fainted.

Opponent switched in Breloom (lvl 100 Breloom ♂).
Pointed stones dug into Breloom.
Breloom lost 6% of its health.

At this point I just switched out as Breloom was his last guy (it was 4-4 when I sent in Dragonite, 4-1 when I sent him back). If I had a White Herb, it would have been 4 kills for me. Granted, my CRE actually is not very good, so maybe this set isn't as effective as opponents get better. I wouldn't actually know, but I've had great success with it myself.

And I do realize keeping Dragonite in on a Mamoswine was not smart, I was just hellbent on showing that Dragonite is effective and it worked out lol.

By the way, I changed the EV's to 252 attack, 252 special attack, 4 speed (to outspeed neutral base 80's with no speed investment I guess, although I don't know how common they are), and as you can see, I was using Leftovers.

 

[firecape]

I don't think that log proves anything, your opponent was hardly a skilled player as he Earthquaked against a Flying type, if you want your logs to show something you need multiple ones from consecutive battles, not hand picked ones where Dragonite does amazing because your opponent isn't that good.

edit: Im not saying this set is bad, I would just like to see better logs, and more then one.

 

[Buzzcut]

I don't think that log proves anything, your opponent was hardly a skilled player as he Earthquaked against a Flying type, if you want your logs to show something you need multiple ones from consecutive battles, not hand picked ones where Dragonite does amazing because your opponent isn't that good.

I was asked for logs so I got some from the second battle I played after posting this. It's not like I sat there for 5 hours and found an opportunity where I took out 2 Pokes and I ran to post this or something.

I've seriously never seen anyone go through hoops like this, but whatever, I have nothing better to do.

Ice Shard was the obvious move, so he went with Earthquake. In that situation I would have used Stone Edge myself.

 

[FlareBlitz]

Pretty sure that was a predicted EQ, not a "didn't know Dragonite was immune to this" type deal. Regardless I agree that the log didn't prove very much; however, I can see a SubPunch Dragonite being fairly effective. Tyranitar can pull it off, so Dragonite probably could as well, since it lures in things standard Nite doesn't like (bulky waters, steels) and hits them SE pretty efficiently. The set definitely needs to be better than this though; stop running HP EVs with a -SDEF nature! I'd say Brave or Quiet should be the nature with maximum special attack investment, some ATK, and the rest into bulk.

 

[Philip7086]

SR weak with Substitute and Life Orb means you are only setting this up once. HP EVs aren't helping your subs last, are they? If not, why are they there? You only really see a loss of 30 base power between Focus Punch and Superpower, so I really don't see any real benefits from using this set over a mixed set with Superpower. This is a no from me, sorry.

 

[Super Mario Bro]

Any sets that have substitute should never have a Life Orb because your health is drained way too quickly. After Stealth Rock, Substitute, and 1 Turn of Life Orb recoil, you have 40% health, which is abysmal. If Sandstorm is up, you have 22% health, and all of this is assuming your opponent did not hurt you yet.

Because of this, Roost has to be the first slash in Move 4.

 

[Towelie]

Any sets that have substitute should never have a Life Orb because your health is drained way too quickly. After Stealth Rock, Substitute, and 1 Turn of Life Orb recoil, you have 40% health, which is abysmal. If Sandstorm is up, you have 22% health, and all of this is assuming your opponent did not hurt you yet.

Uhhh... have you ever heard of gengar? I know it's not sr weak but it's a set and it has sub and LO. Just thought I'd throw that out there. Anyways, this set could have some surprise value but DNite is very slow and doesn't force many switches so the only value i see of this set is getting free attacks behind a sub. so ya, i don't think it'd work but ik my opinion doesn't matter much.

 

[Buzzcut]

Pretty sure that was a predicted EQ, not a "didn't know Dragonite was immune to this" type deal. Regardless I agree that the log didn't prove very much; however, I can see a SubPunch Dragonite being fairly effective. Tyranitar can pull it off, so Dragonite probably could as well, since it lures in things standard Nite doesn't like (bulky waters, steels) and hits them SE pretty efficiently. The set definitely needs to be better than this though; stop running HP EVs with a -SDEF nature! I'd say Brave or Quiet should be the nature with maximum special attack investment, some ATK, and the rest into bulk.

Thanks for the constructive criticism. The EV's and maybe nature need to be fixed, yes, I just believe the concept and move set is solid. What about something along the lines of:

move 1: Substitute
move 2: Focus Punch
move 3: Draco Meteor
move 4: Flamethrower / Roost / Thunderbolt
item:Leftovers
nature: Brave
evs: 168 Atk / 88 Def / 252 SpA

Attack EV's to KO 252/252 bold Blissey after SR, max special attack, rest in defense for bulk (could be special defensive EV's as well I guess. What would be preferred?).

SR weak with Substitute and Life Orb means you are only setting this up once. HP EVs aren't helping your subs last, are they? If not, why are they there? You only really see a loss of 30 base power between Focus Punch and Superpower, so I really don't see any real benefits from using this set over a mixed set with Superpower. This is a no from me, sorry.

I'm starting to see how Life Orb and Substitute could be troublesome. I've always ran White Herb myself and it actually did come in handy the majority of times, but that got shut down.

I have to disagree with you saying that it's "only" a loss of 30 base power. That's quite a significant margin.

Any sets that have substitute should never have a Life Orb because your health is drained way too quickly. After Stealth Rock, Substitute, and 1 Turn of Life Orb recoil, you have 40% health, which is abysmal. If Sandstorm is up, you have 22% health, and all of this is assuming your opponent did not hurt you yet.

Because of this, Life Orb has to be taken down and Roost has to be the first slash in Move 4.

I think I found a solution to everything you say except for the last sentence, so I'll only respond to that directly. Flamethrower is for coverage to make sure you hit Scizor/Forretress/Skarmory for SE damage and I use it a fair bit. This isn't to be played the same as MixNite, so Roost is not all that necessary. It deserves a mention definitely, but I don't think it should be the first slash.

Uhhh... have you ever heard of gengar? I know it's not sr weak but it's a set and it has sub and LO. Just thought I'd throw that out there. Anyways, this set could have some surprise value but DNite is very slow and doesn't force many switches so the only value i see of this set is getting free attacks behind a sub. so ya, i don't think it'd work but ik my opinion doesn't matter much.

The surprise value is probably why I've had success using it. And as I say during the analysis, it is not easy to set it up safely. Once it has a sub up, you are going to kill one Poke at least, with a very good chance of killing more. It is sort of a "wall-breaker", except that if it does manage to kill a slower wall originally, you are behind a sub with a revenge killer coming in and getting a second kill.

 

[Super Mario Bro]

Uhhh... have you ever heard of gengar? I know it's not sr weak but it's a set and it has sub and LO. Just thought I'd throw that out there. Anyways, this set could have some surprise value but DNite is very slow and doesn't force many switches so the only value i see of this set is getting free attacks behind a sub. so ya, i don't think it'd work but ik my opinion doesn't matter much.

Gengar only uses Substitute and Life Orb when it has Pain Split. The current Substitute Special set has Leftovers as the only option.

I think I found a solution to everything you say except for the last sentence, so I'll only respond to that directly. Flamethrower is for coverage to make sure you hit Scizor/Forretress/Skarmory for SE damage and I use it a fair bit. This isn't to be played the same as MixNite, so Roost is not all that necessary. It deserves a mention definitely, but I don't think it should be the first slash.

You should make a comment that Dragonite should only use Life Orb when it also has roost. I meant to say that, so I'm sorry if there were any misunderstandings.

The problem with using Substitute and Life Orb without roost is that Dragonite dies way too quickly. You can't constantly switch Dragonite in and out because of his SR weakness.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

SR weak with Substitute and Life Orb means you are only setting this up once. HP EVs aren't helping your subs last, are they? If not, why are they there? You only really see a loss of 30 base power between Focus Punch and Superpower, so I really don't see any real benefits from using this set over a mixed set with Superpower. This is a no from me, sorry.

Sums it up perfectly for me. SR weak, with Substitute, LO, and no immunity to SS. No dice. If you don't use LO, then you're beaten by just running LO Superpower, which gives similar power, except with more coverage (because no sub) and free access to your Fighting move.

QC REJECTED (2/3)

 

[SJCrew]

Gengar only uses Substitute and Life Orb when it has Pain Split. The current Substitute Special set has Leftovers as the only option.

Uh, no...everyone and their mother uses Sub LO. Gengar doesn't need Leftovers, it needs 2HKOs.

Also, I think you guys should really try out the set before you theorymon it out of QC. Dragonite is definitely not as scary to face as Salamence, but if you get in on something like Skarmory and Blissey, two Pokemon that know they don't have a chance in hell of beating you, expect a free sub.

Only real problem I can forsee is that you can't actually hit Blissey without a sub up, and if your opponent recognizes the set, they're just going to keep STossing you into oblivion.

 

[Towelie]

Ya Gengar uses it with Pain Split but this DNite has roost -____- And just because LO isn't in the analysis on the sub set doesn't mean people don't use this. But ya, agreeing with sds

 

[Buzzcut]

Uh, no...everyone and their mother uses Sub LO. Gengar doesn't need Leftovers, it needs 2HKOs.

Also, I think you guys should really try out the set before you theorymon it out of QC. Dragonite is definitely not as scary to face as Salamence, but if you get in on something like Skarmory and Blissey, two Pokemon that know they don't have a chance in hell of beating you, expect a free sub.

Well Skarmory can just Whirlwind or Roar you out, but you're right about that and that situation arises all too often. And most Blissey's expect a Superpower and would switch immediately. This set isn't standard, so there's no reason to predict a substitute rather than DD, Superpower, Outrage, etc.

And I think some QC members are not reading the topic, as I've accepted the criticism and responded with this:

move 1: Substitute
move 2: Focus Punch
move 3: Draco Meteor
move 4: Flamethrower / Roost / Thunderbolt
item: Leftovers
nature: Brave
evs: 168 Atk / 88 Def / 252 SpA

Which no one has yet to critique, which gives me the impression it's fine, yet it's getting rejected anyway.

I just didn't consider the EV's and nature, which I've changed accordingly. The concept and moveset itself is fine.

 

[Super Mario Bro]

Uh, no...everyone and their mother uses Sub LO. Gengar doesn't need Leftovers, it needs 2HKOs.

Gengar has the speed and lack of stealth rock weakness to use this strategy effectively.

And SDS said everything I wanted to say but couldn't say. I feel like I get into stupid debates for no reason...

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Actually, I did already respond to that.

If you don't use LO, then you're beaten by just running LO Superpower, which gives similar power, except with more coverage (because no sub) and free access to your Fighting move.

My decision stands.

Oh also, your "status immunity" schtick doesn't hold much weight because this set is now balls slow. Every single status inflicter outspeeds and statuses before the sub goes up. Defensive Rotom-A, TWave Jirachi, TWave Gyara, Celebi, etc.

 

[Philip7086]

And I think some QC members are not reading the topic, as I've accepted the criticism and responded with this:

move 1: Substitute
move 2: Focus Punch
move 3: Draco Meteor
move 4: Flamethrower / Roost / Thunderbolt
item: Leftovers
nature: Brave
evs: 168 Atk / 88 Def / 252 SpA

Excuse me? When I posted my response, that was definitely not the set you had in your OP, or in any other post for that matter. When SDS posted, it was not the set you had in your OP either. What you have in your OP is the official set you are proposing, not random other sets you have later on in the topic, and that is what we QC members are supposed to review. Don't you dare try to call out a QC member for something like that AFTER you retroactively change your OP. If you didn't know, moderators can see edit histories (which includes times of edits), so don't think you can get away with such a thing.

Putting your attempt to discredit members of QC aside, your set still comes up short. Without Life Orb, Superpower from Mix Nite does more damage than Focus Punch, and like SDS said, you aren't getting your Substitute up fast enough to avoid many statuses. All in all, this set still fails to gain utility over the standard Mix set, and my rejection stands.

 

[Buzzcut]

Excuse me? When I posted my response, that was definitely not the set you had in your OP, or in any other post for that matter. When SDS posted, it was not the set you had in your OP either. What you have in your OP is the official set you are proposing, not random other sets you have later on in the topic, and that is what we QC members are supposed to review. Don't you dare try to call out a QC member for something like that AFTER you retroactively change your OP. If you didn't know, moderators can see edit histories (which includes times of edits), so don't think you can get away with such a thing.

Putting your attempt to discredit members of QC aside, your set still comes up short. Without Life Orb, Superpower from Mix Nite does more damage than Focus Punch, and like SDS said, you aren't getting your Substitute up fast enough to avoid many statuses. All in all, this set still fails to gain utility over the standard Mix set, and my rejection stands.

I know I didn't have it in there. I wasn't meaning to be disrespectful, I had it posted on the topic and asked for opinions, and most of the responses were to the ones I had in the original post, when I was changing stuff around and agreeing to the changes. Probably my fault for not editing during the process. From my perspective: this is my first topic here, I made a slight mistake by asking opinions without editing the first post, I haven't been flaming anyone through the whole process, you didn't have to then attack me when in the end, all I want is people's opinions on the set.

With the changes I've made, you still say no. I understand the reasons, so it's all good. Worst case scenario here: I get a better understanding of things I didn't take into consideration, someone gets a few mod actions, the set I prefer to use and know like the back of my hand will still be unexpected in the eyes of others.

 

[Philip7086]

Well, sorry if it came off as me attacking you -- I'm just very protective of my QC team, because they put in a shitton of work here, and I don't want to see any of it being discredited. Anyways, I'm glad you aren't taking our rejections too harsly. I personally don't think your set is bad, we are just very strict about what sets we allow to be promoted on-site. Don't let it dissuade you from sharing what you believe to be great sets in the future.

Welcome to Smogon :P