Dragonite Sub Dancer

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tawp64

tawp64

This set was used in my new team I made today, and it has swept 5 teams. It didn't need any support at all, and it wasn't the center of my team. I know I submit many of these that are rejected, but I'd say this is my favorite. The idea is to set up on something like Celebi (which I've seen a lot of), then sub.

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http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/dragonite

[SET]
name: Sub Dancer
move 1: Substitute
move 2: Dragon Dance
move 3: Dragon Claw
move 4: Superpower/Brick Break
nature: Adamant/Jolly
item: Leftovers
evs: 4 HP/ 252 ATK/ 252 SPE

Why this set deserves to be on-site:
-It is so easy to set up on many things. With excellent typing, you can come in on something to support a team, like Bronzong, Skarmory, Celebi, or Blissey. Then, you pretty much get 2-4 kills on average.
-Very effective
-Counters priority and status
-Prevents your team to get swept

Additional comments:
-Set up sub on first turn. Then proceed to DDance.
-Can take on Weavile behind a sub, as well as Mamo.
-Two DDances is all you need. Then you can get OHKO's on many things.
-Hail/Sandstorm safe
-Very difficult to stop after getting up a sub. Priority is only a problem if you DDance instead of kill the pokemon.
-Perfect coverage with Dragon/Fighting.

Teammates and counters:
-Enjoys any entry hazards, mainly SR.
-Sandstorm and Hail aren't a problem, so such teams accept it.
-Starmie can help by eliminating rocks and killing Infernape.
-Metagross OHKO's Flygon and Starmie with Meteor Mash and Thunderpunch. Also can take on Gyarados.
-It works best when switched in after a kill on your team. Momento helps a lot.
-Hates Infernape with HP:Ice
-Starmie can be annoying.
-Flygon with a scarf kills Dragonite without a sub.
-Gyarados is a tad faster and can kill with stone edge. Be sure to bring Dragonite in first.
-Prioirity can break subs and sometimes even kill it.

Well that's my set. It does work great, and can always work as back up.
 
Sub + SR is eh. Superpower with Dragon Dance is pretty bad too when you have access to things like EQ and Fire Punch. And I really don't see how Sub helps when you can just throw a Lum Berry or something on it
 
There are a number of things that just don't click for me about this set. Sub + SR is kinda iffy from the get go, and then there's an issue of a lack of power. Between the lower power of Dragon Claw and Superpower being dumb, plus Brick Break having weak power in general, this has issues in general actually killing bulky things. Kingdra gets away with SubDD because of a lack of SR weakness and near-perfect two-move coverage. I'll be testing this probably, just because, but I don't have high hopes for it.
 
Well, an SR weakness is covered by Aerodactyl leads, or Starmie. It dosen't need much health after getting a sub, because usually you get 2 dances, then break through priority users and lose the sub. But by then you have a Dragonite with 2 DDances, so it shouldn't be much of a problem.
Look at this, it's happened to me before.

Celebi (100%)
Dragonite (100%)
---
Dragonite used Substitute! (75% Sub)
Celebi used Thunder Wave! (100%)
---
Dragonite used Dragon Dance! (75% Sub)
Celebi used Hidden Power! (100%)
---
Celebi switched to Mamoswine!
Dragonite used Dragon Dance! (75% Sub)
---
Mamoswine used Ice Shard! (100%)
Mamoswine broke Dragonite's Sub!
Dragonite used Superpower! (75%)
Mamoswine fainted.

That's when you pretty much kill everything. You may wonder what Celebi is doing using HP, but it happened twice. They must have not wanted to switch at all. But one you're behind a sub they don't have much to do.
 
I have used a Sub DD Nite before, and it worked fairly well.
[SET]
name: SubDD
move 1: Dragon Dance
move 2: Substitute
move 3: Dragon Claw
move 4: Roost/Brick Break
nature: Jolly
evs: 80 HP/252 Attack/176 Speed
item: Leftovers/Life Orb

The EVs and Nature allow Dragonite to outspeed base Jolteon/Aerodactyl so it can avoid HP Ice/Stone Edge, while OHKOing each with Dragon Claw. Brick Break gives unresisted coverage with Dragon, but with Substitute and SR (and possibly LO) wearing Dragonite down, Roost is definitely the preferred option.
You may want to add Forretress to the list of Teammates, since it resists Dragon and Ice and can spin SR away, while setting up its own entry hazards.
 
tawp64 said:
But one you're behind a sub they don't have much to do.
Click to expand...
What are you talking about? +1 Dragonite is easy to stop, especially considering that Dragonite is kind of slow, this set doesn't have a reliable method of recover, and doesn't hit that hard.
 
Seven Deadly Sins said:
Opponents being stupid does not make a set good.
Click to expand...

True enough, that's just what happened to me.

Celebi (100%)
Dragonite (100%)
---
Dragonite used Substitute! (75% Sub)
Celebi used Thunder Wave! (100%)
(Obviously, Thunder Wave should be used to cripple Dnite not expecting subs.)
---
Celebi switched to Mamoswine!
Dragonite used Dragon Dance! (75% Sub +1 Attack, +1 Speed)
(There, NOT stupid. Nothing better to actually do other than roar, but assuming Swampert is dead already, that shouldn't happen.)
---
Mamoswine used Ice Shard! (100%)
Mamoswine broke Dragonite's Sub!
Dragonite used Superpower! (75% +1 Attack, +1 Speed)
Mamoswine fainted.

What are you talking about? +1 Dragonite is easy to stop, especially considering that Dragonite is kind of slow, this set doesn't have a reliable method of recover, and doesn't hit that hard.

A Dragonite with a sub and +1 attack and speed isn't easy to stop. He has extra speed due to DDance which isn't slow. Scarf Flygon isn't slow, (not that Dragonite is fast) so he shouldn't be. Recovery isn't his problem, he shouldn't be hit by anything other than priority or missed hits. And if behind a sub, that shouldn't be scary. Dragonite is just as powerful as Tyranitar technically. STAB Dragon Claw is a great thing, Outrage would stop the set from working. Superpower will kill lots of things. Not STAB, but so what? It hits plenty hard.
 
Celebi (100%)
Dragonite (75%)
---
Click to expand...

To get in this senario, you either switched in and got paralyzed, took an attack, or had something die. Only one of which is good (the second, because it could have been Leaf Storm, but even then...) You also forgot SR!

Dragonite used Substitute! (50% Sub)
Celebi used Thunder Wave! (100%)
(Obviously, Thunder Wave should be used to cripple Dnite not expecting subs.)
Click to expand...

Fine you get your sub.

Celebi switched to Mamoswine!
Dragonite used Dragon Dance! (50% Sub +1 Attack, +1 Speed)
(There, NOT stupid. Nothing better to actually do other than roar, but assuming Swampert is dead already, that shouldn't happen.)
Click to expand...

First of all, Mamoswine isn't exactly the most common Pokemon, but whatever. If they switch to Scizor then you have to Superpower, and its not even a 100% KO with Stealth Rock at +2!

Mamoswine used Ice Shard! (100%)
Mamoswine broke Dragonite's Sub!
Dragonite used Superpower! (50% +1 Attack, +1 Speed)
Mamoswine fainted.

What are you talking about? +1 Dragonite is easy to stop, especially considering that Dragonite is kind of slow, this set doesn't have a reliable method of recover, and doesn't hit that hard.

A Dragonite with a sub and +1 attack and speed isn't easy to stop. He has extra speed due to DDance which isn't slow. Scarf Flygon isn't slow, (not that Dragonite is fast) so he shouldn't be. Recovery isn't his problem, he shouldn't be hit by anything other than priority or missed hits. And if behind a sub, that shouldn't be scary. Dragonite is just as powerful as Tyranitar technically. STAB Dragon Claw is a great thing, Outrage would stop the set from working. Superpower will kill lots of things. Not STAB, but so what? It hits plenty hard.
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You forgot one little bitty crucial part. SUPERPOWER LOWERS YOUR ATTACK. You now have a +1 Speed Dragonite that can still be revenged by the most common revenge killers! (Jirachi, Flygon) If I wanted more Speed why wouldn't I just use lolAgility? And don't say Brick Break, that has piss weak power. Also, you may want to get some real logs, instead of telling us what usually happens.
 
tawp64 said:
True enough, that's just what happened to me.

Celebi (100%)
Dragonite (100%)
---
Dragonite used Substitute! (75% Sub)
Celebi used Thunder Wave! (100%)
(Obviously, Thunder Wave should be used to cripple Dnite not expecting subs.)
---
Celebi switched to Mamoswine!
Dragonite used Dragon Dance! (75% Sub +1 Attack, +1 Speed)
(There, NOT stupid. Nothing better to actually do other than roar, but assuming Swampert is dead already, that shouldn't happen.)
Click to expand...
No, the correct move there is (imo) to switch to something that can take a +1 hit from DNite and break the sub while Dragonite goes for the Dragon Dance/fails to KO the switch in due to lack of power, and then either KO him with the Poke that broke the sub, or sacrifice that Poke to switch out to something that can easily enough revenge kill, both of which are far better options than switching to the revenge killer immediately when you DNite has a sub up and can OHKO you.

---
Mamoswine used Ice Shard! (100%)
Mamoswine broke Dragonite's Sub!
Dragonite used Superpower! (75% +1 Attack, +1 Speed)
Mamoswine fainted.
Click to expand...
What are you talking about? +1 Dragonite is easy to stop, especially considering that Dragonite is kind of slow, this set doesn't have a reliable method of recover, and doesn't hit that hard.
Click to expand...

A Dragonite with a sub and +1 attack and speed isn't easy to stop. He has extra speed due to DDance which isn't slow. Scarf Flygon isn't slow, (not that Dragonite is fast) so he shouldn't be. Recovery isn't his problem, he shouldn't be hit by anything other than priority or missed hits. And if behind a sub, that shouldn't be scary. Dragonite is just as powerful as Tyranitar technically. STAB Dragon Claw is a great thing, Outrage would stop the set from working. Superpower will kill lots of things. Not STAB, but so what? It hits plenty hard.
Click to expand...
First off, there are a number of commonly seen Pokemon in the OU metagame that are commonly scarfed and easily outspeed a +1 Dragonite and KO (ScarfRachi, Scarfgon, ScarfTom, Timid Scarftran, iirc, assuming you run Jolly, etc). Secondly, you'll very rarely be able to get DNite to have +1 while retaining the ability to keep a sub (unless there's a situation like the one you played out, which is rather unlikely, and I would still most likely switch out the Celebi, so as to scout if you were mixed or not).

Also, I agree with SDS; Sub + Stealth Rocks weak doesn't really cut it for me in OU that much unless you use significant amounts of Spin support, and I just think that there would be better options for that moveslot (Roost, even Heal Bell, if you're paranoid about getting hit by status). In addition, Earthquake is probably the superior move to Brick Break (you really shouldn't use SuperPower, imo, as the attack drop is really awful, and I'm pretty sure that you don't OHKO Zong or Skarmory, the two reasons to use it over EQ). So yeah, I would suggest Earthquake as the coverage move.

However, it seems like it could be an okay set, I guess, but I personally think that Dragonite gets plenty of opportunities to set up anyways, and there are better moves for the slot where you have Sub.

Also, if I said something really idiotic in this post, feel free to tell me; this is first post on Smogon, so I expect to make a few rather unintelligent mistakes.
 
You sound like you've been here before, Windsong >>

Oh, and I'd rather use a Heal Bell set with more offensive options (ef roost, you get a critical hit and you're screwed), but I'll test this Dragonite out just "because". Looks like Starmie's another job.
 
firecape01 said:
You forgot one little bitty crucial part. SUPERPOWER LOWERS YOUR ATTACK. You now have a +1 Speed Dragonite, which can still be revenged by the most common revenge killers! (Jirachi, Flygon). If I wanted more Speed, why wouldn't I just use lolAgility? And don't say Brick Break, that has piss weak power. Also, you may want to get some real logs, instead of telling us what usually happens.
Click to expand...

It does, but you can just DDance more. Scizor is a problem with Priority, so why not bring a scizor counter? Heatran or Infernape works. A BaitTar can take on Starmie and Scizor, which helps a lot. It also brings Sandstorm which isn't much of a problem. After killing with Superpower, you can Sub, DDance, and start over. Logs I could bring tomorrow, but now I gotta go to bed

More posts.

No, the correct move there is (imo) to switch to something that can take a +1 hit from DNite and break the sub while Dragonite goes for the Dragon Dance/fails to KO the switch in due to lack of power, and then either KO him with the Poke that broke the sub, or sacrifice that Poke to switch out to something that can easily enough revenge kill, both of which are far better options than switching to the revenge killer immediately when you DNite has a sub up and can OHKO you.

What kind of pokemon is that? Bronzong is set up bait for him, and Suicune is a counter that you should probably avoid.

Oh, and I'd rather use a Heal Bell set with more offensive options (ef roost, you get a critical hit and you're screwed

This is supposed to be more offensive, not supportive.
 
tawp64 said:
It does, but you can just DDance more. Scizor is a problem with Priority, so why not bring a scizor counter? Heatran or Infernape works. A BaitTar can take on Starmie and Scizor, which helps a lot. It also brings Sandstorm which isn't much of a problem. After killing with Superpower, you can Sub, DDance, and start over. Logs I could bring tomorrow, but now I gotta go to bed
Click to expand...

No you can't. At all. Good luck Dragon Dancing in the face of a CB Bullet Punch- it won't end well for Dragonite. (and fyi I actually made a mistake while I was commenting on your log- you forgot SR) You have 50% after you use Substitute, good luck Rapid Spinning in a metagame where Rotom is everywhere. And you also can't switch back in, because you will be at 1HP if you sub again! SR + Sub + SR + Sub= dead Dragonite (or you have 1HP, but that's as good as dead with no Roost).
 
tawp64 said:
No, the correct move there is (imo) to switch to something that can take a +1 hit from DNite and break the sub while Dragonite goes for the Dragon Dance/fails to KO the switch in due to lack of power, and then either KO him with the Poke that broke the sub, or sacrifice that Poke to switch out to something that can easily enough revenge kill, both of which are far better options than switching to the revenge killer immediately when you DNite has a sub up and can OHKO you.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...


What kind of pokemon is that? Bronzong is set up bait for him, and Suicune is a counter that you should probably avoid.
Click to expand...
Actually, there's a fair amount of Pokemon that can take a hit from a +1 DNite with lefties and Dragon Claw (no Outrage means that Pokes take hits way better). All the bulky waters in OU (Suicune can Ice Beam, Vappy can Ice Beam / Roar away), Snorlax, Zong (who isn't setup bait, as some sets carry HP Ice / Gyro Ball, both of which break your sub), Skarmory, etc.

Oh, and I'd rather use a Heal Bell set with more offensive options (ef roost, you get a critical hit and you're screwed

This is supposed to be more offensive, not supportive.
Click to expand...

Firstly, I find it amusing how you put your own comment about Roost on what seems to be my quote. Secondly, you know what? I'd rather Dragon Dance up with reliable recovery and a reliable way to heal my status than have to lose 25% HP every time I want to avoid status, and be without reliable healing solely for fear of a crit KOing me even with the healing.

edit: oops, now I feel like a bit of an idiot, because that seemed to be my quote then I realized it wasn't. * facepalms *
 
Here's another scenario....

Celebi used Thunder Wave!
Slownite used Sub!

Dragonite is useless the rest of the match!
 
Windsong said:
[/I]

Actually, there's a fair amount of Pokemon that can take a hit from a +1 DNite with lefties and Dragon Claw (no Outrage means that Pokes take hits way better). All the bulky waters in OU (Suicune can Ice Beam, Vappy can Ice Beam / Roar away), Snorlax, Zong (who isn't setup bait, as some sets carry HP Ice / Gyro Ball, both of which break your sub), Skarmory, etc.



Firstly, I find it amusing how you put your own comment about Roost on what seems to be my quote. Secondly, you know what? I'd rather Dragon Dance up with reliable recovery and a reliable way to heal my status than have to lose 25% HP every time I want to avoid status, and be without reliable healing solely for fear of a crit KOing me even with the healing.
Click to expand...

Depends on how you interpret the comment, but I was just, you know, making a comment on critical hits and Roost and how crits suck when you're against things like a Tyranitar's Stone Edge. Don't take it as offense, as I wasn't addressing the post intentionally or lest offensively.

As for the subDD set itself, the EV spread seems straightforward. All out offense doesn't seem to suit Bulky Sala- I MEAN Dragonite when it's using a utility move like Substitute. Things like Heatran capitalize on defenses to wall things like Rotom-A's Thunderbolt, so as food for thought, Dragonite should lose a few attack and/or speed EVs.
 
What happened after? Lol. Subbing with dragonite isnt that good with ice shards out there... and not just that, but many things outspeed dragonite even with one Dd.
 
I don't condone use of this set in the slightest due to:

1. Superpower is so backwards for the set + Brick Break sucks (fyi dragon/fighting isn't perfect coverage)
2. SR + Sub is horrible
3. If you were to go Mono to let Roost on the set then the ClericDancer outclasses it due to ease of setup and team support.
4. The above is already enough reason for me.

...but if it does somehow end up getting approved then it may aswell have a decent spread.

184HP / 120Atk / 204Spe Adamant gives you 5 Subs (no rocks obv.) and a nice lefties number, 204 Spe to outspeed +1 +speed base 100s, rest into attack.
Unboosted Flamethrowers from Heatran will never break your sub now, never OHKOed by standard Blissey Ice Beam and probably quite alot more but yeah...

If Jolly is going to be an option (To AC with you!!!) then Earthquake should definetely be used the set in the 4th slot and with a slightly different spread.

Basically, this is what I think it should look like:

Dragonite @ Leftovers
Inner Focus | Adamant
184HP / 120Atk / 204Spe
-Substitute
-Dragon Dance
-Dragon Claw
-Earthquake / Roost

with a mention of 56HP / 200Atk / 252Spe Jolly BUT EARTHQUAKE USED!!! in AC. This is for outspeeding shit like +speed Heatran , Adamant Lucario blabla. It needs to be able to actually hurt them though so yeah EQ.

Oh and EQ > fighting move because Dragonite's fighting moves are balls / detrimental to the set.

I'd still much rather use some variation of BulkyNite with Roost or ClericDancer over this anyway though.
 
Agree mostly with Ghost, but Dragon / Fighting is perfect coverage (unlike Dragon / Ground, which Skarmory and Bronzong resist).

Nothing more to add, really. It's not threatening enough.
 
Shedinja resists both Ground/ Dragon + Fighting/ Dragon so neither are perfect ;)

Skarmory isn't caring about this Dragonite whatever it uses really, no calcs needed.

Bronzong would care a bit more as it doesn't have recovery but seriously... standard Bronzong takes:

30.5% - 36.1% from a +1 Brick Break (pathetic considering the investment into Attack)

48.5% - 57.4% from a +1 Superpower which then becomes +0 and deals 32.5% - 38.5% the following turn, Barely ever 2HKOed with rocks anyone???

Imo, Skarm+Zong are simply obstacles that have to be taken out by the rest of any Dragonite team, no point aiming to hit them neutrally. Earthquake offers a consistent, high BP move that lets you hurt all steels bar Skarmory & Zong.
 
What about sub roost nite with dragon pulse/claw and flamethrower/fireblast/fire punch without DD? I remember using a sub roost latias then a sub roost mence and they both worked really well as a surprise and a counter to common switch ins until they were both eventually banned.
 
Tbh,what the hell is the Substitute for other than to ease prediction? Dragon Dance on its own eases prediction and actually allows you to capitalize on other than Scarfers switching in so I guess I just don't see a point in Substitute on the set at all.

@ Calze - at that point I think people would rather be using something like SubTran,SubChamp etc. who make better use of it.
 
dragon claw does poor damage without LO, sub and SR even with aero and starmie on your team arent always viable options. you are also using up two turns to setup instead of just one. not completely rejecting but im doubting the usefulness of this set.
 
Unfortunately, this set is not as effective as the OP says it is, and I honestly don't think it's possible to give it an approval. There are many reasons as to why this set isn't effective, being the combination of Substitute and the omnipresent Stealth Rock the first and most notable one. Additionally, you're requiring two turns to become a somewhat dangerous individual (Substitute + DD) because otherwise Dragonite without a boost or Life Orb will be far from being a menace to any solid team that it faces. Apart from this, you need to take into account that there are various Pokemon out there that pack Roar and Whirlwind, which basically screws this set in a proportion that you can't imagine; some examples of this are: Swampert, Skarmory, Suicune, and Hippowdon, and note that all of them boast an incredibly high Defense stat, which makes Dragonite's job even harder to accomplish. Finally, you can find here a Gyarados set that we rejected a few weeks ago, whose strategy was slightly similar to the one that you're trying to accomplish with the proposed Dragonite in the OP of this thread. So perhaps you can see there more examples as to why the idea of using a set with Substitute in a Pokemon that's 2x weak to SR, and yet has not way to self-recover the health lost is just not viable.

Unfortunately, I'm going to have to vote against giving this set an on-site analysis.

QC REJECTED (1/3)
 
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