Dragonite or Salamence?

[Aeromence]

Dragonite or Salamence? this argument has been going on for 3 Generations, but it looks like it has a clear winner this Generation...

VS

Now that Garchomp is banned, Salamence has become a lot better in this metagame, but still faces fierce competition from Dragonite, the new king Physical Dragon for BW OU. They both have different qualities, different movesets, and different roles. This makes it hard to judge who is actually better. Below shows what outclasses the other Dragon, and feel free to discuss changes. Right now the main argument is: What is better when it comes to pure offencive Dragon Dance?

Offencive Dragon Dance:
This is easily the toughest decision there is between the two. They both still play differently, which is strange, because most offencive Dragon Dance users play the same, like Gyarados, Haxorus, and Kingdra. Salamence has Intimidate, higher Special Attack, higher Speed, and doesn't need spinning or clear skies to be good. Dragonite, on the other hand, is hindered by Life Orb (but who would actually use it with MultiScale?) so he must go towards Lum Berry or Leftovers, lowering the damage output. He also needs Spinning or he loses his main niche. But if he gets the right support, he get get up more Dragon Dances, and +1 or +2 ExtremeSpeed is pretty sexy. But unfortunatly, if his MultiScale is broken, he might not be able to get enough Dragon Dances up to actually sweep, and is also more easily revenged. I think the winner of this one might go to Salamence, but feel free to discuss.
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Bulky Dragon Dance:
Yeah, you all know who this is going to... Salamence! But seriously now, Dragonite outclasses Salamence on so many levels with this. He has MultiScale, so he can continuously Roost and PP Stall the Opponent, and continuously reactivate MultiScale. He also has Fire Punch, much more reliable and powerful than Salamences Fire Fang or Fire Blast. So, Dragonite my a mile on this one.
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Choice Specs:
SpecsMence was the original 4th Gen Menace. A lot less useful now that Lati@s are out there. But now Dragonite can shine with his very underrated set. Only really usable in Rain, he run Hurricane, Thunder, Draco Meteor and Fire Blast/Surf. But it has to have rain up, or is pretty useless. Salamence is still usable, only because of the surprise factor and higher speed, and maybe slightly higher power. Dragonite wins, but Salamence still gives it a bit of competition.
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Defencive:
No competition from anything here, Dragonite gets MultiScale, Thunder Wave, and lots more Bulk than Salamence, and tanks through Excadrill with the rare Aqua Tail or common Fire Punch. The only reason to use Salamence over Dragonite is the ability to do more damage and pass wishes. Dragonite wins. WOOOOOO!!!​

Mixed (with roost):
Another tough one, both of them having their own merits. Salamence's best Mixed set, the 'Classic MixMence' is a real tank. It simply oozes power, and its Wallbreaking skills are never to be underestimated. Dragonite can still break through the outclassness barrier, only because of his nifty new ability. Of course he can still use Superpower with Inner Focus, but MULTISCALE IS BEASTLY. Tough choice, but Dragonite has come out on top this time. Just.
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Offencive Mixed:
Salamence has won this one, right? Yeah, Dragonite really can't abuse MultiScale in a pure offencive set. It can still use Superpower, but compared to Salamence's Outrage spamming, it's pretty useless in this department, especially because he can't use MultiScale to it's fullest. Salamence wins his second one.
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Shuffler:
Dragonite defines the word 'ParaShuffler'. It's super-annoying to most teams I make, even more so than Whimsicott, and that's saying a lot. All Salamence can shuffle is Toxic, which can be done with Toxic Spikes anyway. Dragonite wins, and claims the trophy of the better Dragon. There's still one more viable set, and I will discuss it.
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Choice Band:
I've loved the Item Choice Band since it's release in good ol' ADV. Salamence could spam lots of epic HP Flyings all over the place... Yeah, not anymore. Salamence won this last Generation and the Generation before, but because of TrollFreak's Trolling skills, all those Salamence fans had to suffer and see Dragonite shoot up in usage because of the best ability in the game. Salamence is still good, being able to scorch Skarmory with Fire Blast, but Dragonite's Choice Band Fire Punch is nothing to screw with. They both love spamming Outrages, but Haxorus is better than both of these combined, then put on Steroids. Yeah, Dragonite wins this, because his Choise Band set actually made it onto the analysis.​

Overall, it looks like the argument is settled, with Dragonite coming out with the crown. He is clearly more suited to the current Metagame. His bulk is just too much...​

Please comment, I'd love to hear all of your feedback.​

 

[Olijolly]

I knew you were going to make a thread concerning the issue of mence vs. nite lol...
Anyways, I'l start with the offensive dragon dance. I do agree looking at only those two, mence is going to pull off an offensive sweep a lot better due to its better speed (atk diff is not big enough to worth mentioning). However, I'm not going to say offensive dragon dance sets are my favorite sets due to the metagame having many faster threats, making +1 or even +2 boosts often times ineffective. Some people could make an argument that even on offensive sets, dragonite still holds its ground due to multiscale (it's actually pretty easy to keep multiscale). Overall, mence for offensive dd variants. Bulky DD...dragonite hands down and I don't really see any point in proving this. Choice Specs is a tricky one to be honest, I actually think SpecsNite under rain is quite awesome. Spamming Specs 100% accurate thunder and STAB hurricane as well as pseudo STAB surf are awesome but in this case, I'm going to say in general mence got the specs variant since nite can only do that under rain (hurricannnneeeeeeeee). Defensive and Shuffler for dragonite hands down. Though, mence does have wish, which can be quite nice even though there are better wishers. CB variant...I am actually going to say dragonite as well just because of its bulky but to be honest, I'd also rather use haxorus than either of them.

Oh and I don't like moxie due to the fact that outrage and roost can't be used on mence.

 

[Vixana]

Multiscale > Moxie
But dragonite has always been more defensive than salamence. It's sort of like choosing between latias and latios.

Also Intimdate > Moxie
Moxie only works upon fainting other's pokémon through direct attacks. Also, to add insult to fail, it's only a one stage boost. Top that off with outrage being illegal with moxie, I can't really see it being used. Outrage is gen IV tutor only, for now.

 

[lordkira]

I knew you were going to make a thread concerning the issue of mence vs. nite lol...
Anyways, I'l start with the offensive dragon dance. I do agree looking at only those two, mence is going to pull off an offensive sweep a lot better due to its better speed (atk diff is not big enough to worth mentioning). However, I'm not going to say offensive dragon dance sets are my favorite sets due to the metagame having many faster threats, making +1 or even +2 boosts often times ineffective. Some people could make an argument that even on offensive sets, dragonite still holds its ground due to multiscale (it's actually pretty easy to keep multiscale). Overall, mence for offensive dd variants. Bulky DD...dragonite hands down and I don't really see any point in proving this. Choice Specs is a tricky one to be honest, I actually think SpecsNite under rain is quite awesome. Spamming Specs 100% accurate thunder and STAB hurricane as well as pseudo STAB surf are awesome but in this case, I'm going to say in general mence got the specs variant since nite can only do that under rain (hurricannnneeeeeeeee). Defensive and Shuffler for dragonite hands down. Though, mence does have wish, which can be quite nice even though there are better wishers. CB variant...I am actually going to say dragonite as well just because of its bulky but to be honest, I'd also rather use haxorus than either of them.

Oh and I don't like moxie due to the fact that outrage and roost can't be used on mence.

Agreeing with most of olijolly's post except on the argument that offensive dd mence is outright better than offensive dd nite. It's really hard to say who is simply better at offensive dd in this gen mainly because the speed diff between the two isn't that big of a deal anymore since +1 dd nite outruns most of the things +1 mence does anyways. Also, multiscale makes dragonite's offensive dd set still extremely bulky and having ms is pretty easy also.

Also, I'd also like to say something olijolly hasn't mentioned...mixed sets. Mence is better imo mainly due to its superior speed and better spA stats.

intimidate > moxie
multiscale >>> moxie

in this gen, bulky attackers >>>> frail fast attackers of gen 4
conclusion: dragonite > salamence in general (just because its bulky as hell)

 

[Olijolly]

Meh, I guess.
multiscale is really the only thing offensive dd nite has over dd mence.
However, I will agree with you on your point on how multiscale is still a huge factor.

Everybody forgets about Agilitynite... With Multiscale it's a piece of cake to pull it off and proceed to outspeed everything. Go Dragonite!

I pretty much agree on all the other stuff.

I was goign to talk about this but I just decided not to.
Agility dragonite is awesome under rain.

p.s. Overall, I'm going to say dragonite is a better pokemon than mence this gen.

 

[Spoook]

Everybody forgets about Agilitynite... With Multiscale it's a piece of cake to pull it off and proceed to outspeed everything. Go Dragonite!

I pretty much agree on all the other stuff.

 

[kanak0]

I really think Specs Mence is much better than Specs Nite.
With A set of Draco Meteor/Hydro Pump/Fire Blast/Filler Salamence can hit crazy hard in any weather and kill most of its normal counters in any weather. Yeah Nite gets hurricane but you need a rain team for that and rain + Dnite already telegraphs that its running hurricane. Also Dnite in the rain calls in specially defensive pokes, where salamence generally lures physically defensive pokes that get wreaked by his moves. Also since you dont have roost. Intimidate is great for softening the blows as you switch in, letting you get in on random stuff and hitting the switch in with Draco Meteor. Also Salamence as 110 Special Attack versus Dragonites 100 adding some extra bite. The extra speed also lets salamence run modest and still outspeed many defensive pokes like impish/adamant Gliscor.

 

[SlimMan]

Oh gosh, I think I'm the one who caused this thread... sorry all!

The thing is, I really think they've been made different enough to be incomparable at this point. Someone made an analogy to Latias vs Latios, and I think it's very fitting. If you know exactly what role you want to be filled, then they won't both be competing for it. Their niches are very distinct this Gen, moreso than the previous two Gen's. They just do separate things, y'know?

Dragonite is much more variable, and he can do more things effectively than Mence can. That's why he finds his way onto more teams. People like what Nite does what than what Mence does. It doesn't mean that Nite is necessarily better on the whole, just that Nite is better at the things which are currently most popular. In general, Nite will probably be the one your team wants, but not always.

Edit: While we're discussing Dragon/Flying, it needs to be said that Altaria out-classes both of them.

2nd Edit: Choice sets are comparable, however, and I certainly hope it's obvious why.
Agreeing with kanak0. SpecsMence > SpecsNite.
However, BandNite > BandMence because ExtremeSpeed is sexy.
Both fail at Scarf.

 

[Olijolly]

Scarf in general is a huge fail except a selection of few
While it's true they have traits that differentiate one from another, there are sets that can be closely compared to one another, such as offensive and bulky dd, specs, band, scarf(looooooool) as well as mixed sets to a lesser degree (mixed nite is a fantastic wallbreaker while mixed mence is more of a sweeper.
But yeah I do agree that nite has more use than menace overall and thT scarf on either of them suck dicks....lots of dick

Ps I'd like to give a shout out to mixmence for being such a beast

 

[No Luck Involved]

Salamence wins as a one turn set up wall breaker. Dragonite wins in every other role. Specs sets are pretty gimmicky but Salamence does better there too thanks to Intimidate helping him switch in. But seriously Dragonite does most things so much more reliably than Salamence. It's like comparing a glass cannon with curselax.

 

[Olijolly]

While I also prefer nite over mence almost always for it's superior survivability (and bulky dd set is such a beast), lum+dd offensive set of menace (get it? Loool derpp) is fantastic :(

 

[xMistyx]

You seem to have forgotten Dragonites access to two priority moves; Extreme Speed and the Lesser Aqua Jet.

 

[KurashiDragon]

2nd Edit: Choice sets are comparable, however, and I certainly hope it's obvious why.
Agreeing with kanak0. SpecsMence > SpecsNite.
However, BandNite > BandMence because ExtremeSpeed is sexy.
Both fail at Scarf.

If Grey/the next black/white gets released with the outrage move tutor and DW Bagon get's released then it'll either be a tie for the banded set or Salamence would win. Moxie Banded Outrage would be SMEXY AS HELL!

For now though I'll have to say that Dragonite is the better one. If only for the fact that this weather metagame needs Dragonite for it's extreme versitility over Salamence's power.

 

[SlimMan]

Scarf in general is a huge fail except a selection of few
While it's true they have traits that differentiate one from another, there are sets that can be closely compared to one another, such as offensive and bulky dd, specs, band, scarf(looooooool) as well as mixed sets to a lesser degree (mixed nite is a fantastic wallbreaker while mixed mence is more of a sweeper.
But yeah I do agree that nite has more use than menace overall and thT scarf on either of them suck dicks....lots of dick

Ps I'd like to give a shout out to mixmence for being such a beast

I'd disagree with you on their comparability. offensive DD and Mixed play so differently, it's like comparing CM Virizion to CM Reuniclus. Virizion gets a boost or two and then uses it's awesome Speed to attempt a sweep. Reuniclus uses its incredible bulk and amazing ability to set up a ton, then bulldozes through the enemy team from there. They're using the same set-up move, but they aren't doing the same thing. The two are entirely different kinds of sweepers.

Salamence can't do the defensive sets, so no point in even attempting a comparison there.

If Grey/the next black/white gets released with the outrage move tutor and DW Bagon get's released then it'll either be a tie for the banded set or Salamence would win. Moxie Banded Outrage would be SMEXY AS HELL!

For now though I'll have to say that Dragonite is the better one. If only for the fact that this weather metagame needs Dragonite for it's extreme versitility over Salamence's power.

Moxie would notnbe good on the CB set. You would get the Attack boost, and then something faster would come in and force you out, thus wasting the boost. The only sets Mence could effectively use Moxie on are the DD and Scarf sets, and the Scarf set is fail, regardless.
Once Mence gets ExtremeSpeed, then it will better better at CB than Nite is. But until then...

Agreeing with you on the versatility thing, but I'd like to nitpick that the metagame does not "need" anything.

 

[Olijolly]

I'd disagree with you on their comparability. offensive DD and Mixed play so differently, it's like comparing CM Virizion to CM Reuniclus. Virizion gets a boost or two and then uses it's awesome Speed to attempt a sweep. Reuniclus uses its incredible bulk and amazing ability to set up a ton, then bulldozes through the enemy team from there. They're using the same set-up move, but they aren't doing the same thing. The two are entirely different kinds of sweepers.

Salamence can't do the defensive sets, so no point in even attempting a comparison there.



Moxie would notnbe good on the CB set. You would get the Attack boost, and then something faster would come in and force you out, thus wasting the boost. The only sets Mence could effectively use Moxie on are the DD and Scarf sets, and the Scarf set is fail, regardless.
Once Mence gets ExtremeSpeed, then it will better better at CB than Nite is. But until then...

Agreeing with you on the versatility thing, but I'd like to nitpick that the metagame does not "need" anything.

Not entirely
The only diff nite and menace has for offensive dd is that nite is more def oriented and mence is more off oriented. Those two aren't like cm viri and reu who share diff typing and diff moveset while the two dragons share way too many similarities to sAy they are totally different mons for the same offensive dd set. They are more like sd chomp and sd haxorus were before chomps ban
Also for mixed set if you read my full post I never said they are the same by how nite is more of a wallbreAker and menace is more of a mixed zweeper

 

[lordkira]

Not entirely
The only diff nite and menace has for offensive dd is that nite is more def oriented and mence is more off oriented. Those two aren't like cm viri and reu who share diff typing and diff moveset while the two dragons share way too many similarities to sAy they are totally different mons for the same offensive dd set. They are more like sd chomp and sd haxorus were before chomps ban
Also for mixed set if you read my full post I never said they are the same by how nite is more of a wallbreAker and menace is more of a mixed zweeper

This
Dragonite and salamance are two very different mons
However when comparing One specific set It's a different matter
Also its pretty fairly hard to multi boost with offensive nite and if you want to rather use bulky dd. Bulky ddnite and off dd mence are very different but offensive ddnite and offensive dd men e are quite similar. Its true even off dd sets of the two have some diff but one can still say which is overall better as off dd.
So I'm going to have to disagree with you on that topic
Mixed sets of the two mons are very different however

 

[Olijolly]

This
Dragonite and salamance are two very different mons
However when comparing One specific set It's a different matter
Also its pretty fairly hard to multi boost with offensive nite and if you want to rather use bulky dd. Bulky ddnite and off dd mence are very different but offensive ddnite and offensive dd men e are quite similar. Its true even off dd sets of the two have some diff but one can still say which is overall better as off dd.
So I'm going to have to disagree with you on that topic
Mixed sets of the two mons are very different however

Well I'm not going to say that one outclasses another due to each mon having own niche and unique merits. I would argue which is generally better but not outclassing the other.

Edit: if mence got extremespeed I am going to lol hard

 

[Boondocker]

Cb nite is better then haxorous imo. Extremespeed makes it a solid revenge killer whie haxorous has no way fire move to get past skarm and ferrothorn. The specs set for nite can run superpower for blissey because if you are using hurricane you have no use for a fire move anyway. That alone makes specs nite worth using over specs mence. Intimidate is a great ablility though, possibily as good as multi scale. Overall i think nite>mence but its not as clear as the op makes it seem.

 

[TM13IceBeam]

why compare Chomp and Haxorus when both do completely different roles? Haxorus is slower than base 100 mons, which Chomp trolls to hell and back forth. Haxorus needs to run DD to sweep, Chomp can just SD instead(not like it could learn DD). Haxorus is a CB wallbreaker, Chomp is a sweeper.

Dragonite is definitely better than Salamence this gen. Multiscale IS that big of a boost, since Dragonite will outspeed a lot of people due to DD's speed boost, and then Roost off back into Multiscale, making getting more boosts even easier. Moxie is great on Salamence, but it would have been even better if Salamence was just a bit faster, since +1 mence no longer speed ties with +Speed Scarf 100 mon.

 

[AuraSphere]

Moxie isn't really a good choice on Salamence, because the +1 Attack after every KO isn't worth losing Outrage or Dragon Dance. His only good way to be scoring KOs would be Dragon Claw. Draco Meteor Salamence is a whole different matter.

 

[TM13IceBeam]

Even with DM Salamence, it'd have to wait until Latios is kicked out of the metagame. Latios is faster and stronger than Salamence...

 

[Olijolly]

why compare Chomp and Haxorus when both do completely different roles? Haxorus is slower than base 100 mons, which Chomp trolls to hell and back forth. Haxorus needs to run DD to sweep, Chomp can just SD instead(not like it could learn DD). Haxorus is a CB wallbreaker, Chomp is a sweeper.

Dragonite is definitely better than Salamence this gen. Multiscale IS that big of a boost, since Dragonite will outspeed a lot of people due to DD's speed boost, and then Roost off back into Multiscale, making getting more boosts even easier. Moxie is great on Salamence, but it would have been even better if Salamence was just a bit faster, since +1 mence no longer speed ties with +Speed Scarf 100 mon.

Doesn't matter which set each pokemon does best with.
Only thing that matters is that chomp and hax both were able to run sd and hax's sd was clearly not as good as chomp's

as for the base 100's argument, yes, i agree.
nobody uses 100 scarfs, no...nobody really uses scarf anymore except for a selection of few mons.
salamence is no longer exactly fast either.
maybe if people started scarfing base speed of 90s-100s then mahybe but until then meh
moxie is ok but the thing about moxie is that you will be losing out on outrage and roost, which seriously hinders it:(

Even with DM Salamence, it'd have to wait until Latios is kicked out of the metagame. Latios is faster and stronger than Salamence...

this
although mixed mence with moxie sounds ok...though...no roost and outrage (again) hurts

 

[TM13IceBeam]

Doesn't matter which set each pokemon does best with.
Only thing that matters is that chomp and hax both were able to run sd and hax's sd was clearly not as good as chomp's

as for the base 100's argument, yes, i agree.
nobody uses 100 scarfs, no...nobody really uses scarf anymore except for a selection of few mons.
salamence is no longer exactly fast either.
maybe if people started scarfing base speed of 90s-100s then mahybe but until then meh
moxie is ok but the thing about moxie is that you will be losing out on outrage and roost, which seriously hinders it:(

the point is that both are completely different.

 

[Olijolly]

the point is that both are completely different.

as two mons yes.
as general sd'ers, they can be compared.

 

[TM13IceBeam]

except nobody uses SD Haxorus. It's too slow.