Gen 4 DPPT/HGSS OU Rain offense - suggestions needed

Hey everyone. I haven't played the metagame in years, pretty much since XY, and haven't really been interested in the new ones as they have been coming out. I had the urge to play some Showdown after watching False Swipe Gaming's channel, and I remember liking DPPT's meta before it got truly nuts with the offense (and team preview). I used to run a rain team back in the day that had some reasonable success and was fun to use, but I never got too high in the rankings. I created a new one based on it, but heavily modified with some new ideas that I wanted to try out. It has also had some success, but it could always be made better.

Anyway, rain-based offense team. Overall pretty basic, not rocking the boat here with the picks. All sets are currently running the first moves in the slots with "/" in them, but I am considering replacing them with the other options. 4/6 can set rain up, which is useful since it will have competition with Sandstorm in some cases


Kabrotops (Kabutops) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Aqua Jet / Waterfall
- Flail / Stone Edge / Waterfall
- Stealth Rock
- Rain Dance

I used to use an Electrode for my rain opening, and it served well. Not being afraid of Taunt and thus nearly guaranteed Rain meant a lot to me, but I really needed something that could set up Rocks. Azelf has many good traits: 1st turn Rocks doesn't give away my Rain strat, it has access to the same set as Electrode but with more damage, good stuff. Its matchup with T-Tar is what ultimately turned me off, since T-Tar and the more uncommon Abomasnow are great at disrupting the strat of the team. T-Tar isn't happy about seeing Kabutops, and Kabutops doesn't mind the sand. 1st turn Rain Dance and Sash means Rocks are probable next turn unless the opponent has a priority move, since after Rain you'll be faster than anything base speed 100 or less (+ nature) with a Scarf. If they DO have a priority move, Aqua Jet will leave a mark before Kabutops goes down, and takes out their Sashes. Aqua Jet also forces mindgames against some leads that can Taunt it, like Areodactyl, but overall Taunt is kinda scary. The other attacking move has been a hard choice for me to decide upon. I'm currently running Flail, since it has great neutral typing with Water STAB. Focus Sash, Sand immunity, a priority move in Jet, and a bunch of weaknesses are all great facilitators in Flail's use. It does land some OHKOs on frailer mons in the best of situations (it outdamages Waterfall in the rain at 1%), but it is also unreliable in the worst of situations. Stone Edge is more reliable (80% of the time anyway lol), has STAB and coverage (especially against Abomasnow), while Waterfall goes all-in with the Rain boost. Notably, Waterfall OHKOs more offense-based T-Tar in the rain (if they lead), or 2 hit KO in sand. EVs are for Flail's use mostly, I might also want to set HP and Def/SpDef IVs to 0 to further facilitate. Otherwise I go for 204 Spe for + nature base 100s with Scarf, and the rest in HP to run Stone Edge/Waterfall.

Edit: Been using Stone Edge, it is very important to have an offense option from the first turn. Stone Edge allows me to bully various leads, especially ones with Taunt, with the one-two punch of Stone Edge and Aqua Jet. EVs are 204 Spe and 60 HP and max attack to punch holes, or potentially rain sweep a weakened team if by some miracle it survives the early game. I was thinking of experimenting with a Qwilfish lead (which honestly has a lot going for it as an offensive lead), to maybe put ol' 'Tops somewhere else, but Stealth Rock is more reliable damage than Spikes (especially considering you have only a single turn for setting the hazard), and the aforementioned sand immunity/buff has a lot of synergy with the Sash in keeping it alive. Qwilfish kabooms, and that is a fantastic selling point, but Kabutops actually has a chance at surviving combat with enough health to switch in later to do something useful with priority or setup, or even being sacrificed for a safe switch-in. Also 20 more points in base Attack and a better STAB in Stone Edge when compared to Poison Jab (well in raw damage and offensive typing anyway) make it not need to rely so much on kabooming to hurt things. The only other Swift Swimmers with Stealth Rock, Relicanth and Omastar, are both very slow (even with nature boost) and do not have Aqua Jet, making Kabutops a unique lead with this set and attributes to go with it.


Broseidon (Kingdra) @ Life Orb
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 216 Atk / 60 SpA / 232 Spe
Naughty Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Waterfall
- Outrage
- Dragon Dance

My old team had DD Gyara and special-based Kingdra, and this is is the best of both. One thing to notice about the lead Kabutops is that it doesn't run Damp Rock. Additionally, it spends one turn of rain setting up rocks, further killing momentum. Kingdra is what I use most of the time after Kabutops goes down, because it doesn't necessarily NEED the rain to be a legitimate threat, which is good since the early game weather will be unreliable. When I swap it in, there is a small period of time when the enemy doesn't know what to expect. If they predict Hydro Pump, and switch to their special tanks, they will be sad. Most of the time, I DD, making Waterfall hit like a truck in rain, and Outrage out of it. If they're bold enough to switch in T-Tar after I bring Kingdra in, they will not like this variant, since it hits on the physical side and doesn't care if they have a scarf after a DD. Hydro Pump still is a potential OHKO to Metagross and Skarmory in the rain, and a 2HKO out of it. The speed EVs are set specifically to beat Timid Scarf Gengar in the rain and below (which should be pretty much 99% of everything). Out of rain with a single DD, it also outspeeds all positive nature base 70s with +1 spe, and neutral nature base 81 with +1 spe, and all base 130s and less, making the speed EVs crucial to not get revenge killed easily without priority. Can't go past any other notable benchmarks without changing to +spe nature and it ain't worth it. Atk Evs goes to its last jump number to make most of its physical bias, and the rest go into SpAtk for Hydro Pump to help achieve OHKOs to some Skarm and Metagross. Unfortunately, it will get KO'd, and I will need to set up rain again. So I have two options at this point, which are the next two pokes.


Citizen Snips (Scizor) @ Damp Rock
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 HP / 56 Atk / 20 Def / 180 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Bullet Punch
- U-turn
- Roost / Pursuit
- Rain Dance

I used to run Bronzong, and I can be convinced to run it again over this. As for now, I am liking the change, since I am using Kabutops as my Rocks setter and can afford to run Scizor. I am not sure HOW to run it, however. I'm currently running it bulky since I use it as a defensive pivot and survivable rain setter. EVs give it reasonable attack (jump point), full HP, and equal defenses, but there's probably a better setup. I generally use Scizor if the enemy has an offensive threat out, since it is survivable with its typing and defensive spread. Rain also helps it survive its only weakness. It can set up a long rain with the Damp Rock, and revenge kill severely weakened threats that lived through Kingdra's assault. It is yet another T-Tar check with Bullet Punch, which is great to have KO'd so that it doesn't ruin sweeps later. U-Turn facilitates a safe switch to a new offensive threat that can utilize rain, it's fantastic. U-Turn also helps against Magnezone, can't not have it. Last slot I've been using Roost, and overall I like it to keep Scizor alive to dance. It doesn't currently have the EVs for Pursuit to have great power, but it does help with some threats, like Celebi. Speaking of Celebi, it really dislikes eating a U-Turn if it ever comes to it.

Edit: Now running 252 HP / 16 Atk / 240 Def to utilize as a physical check, since I have plenty of special resists at this point


Broserade (Roserade) @ Black Sludge
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 172 HP / 12 Def / 96 SpA / 228 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Leaf Storm
- Sludge Bomb / Weather Ball
- Rain Dance
- Sleep Powder

Originally I ran this as a Scarfer, but let's be honest Ludicolo does the role of revenge killer/special sweeper in rain 100% better. However I noticed that Roserade has a LOT of utility that this team needs. If the opponent has a wall or tank out when Kingdra goes down, I may use this to get the rain back up, if only short-term. It is fast, and can cripple walls and tanks with Sleep Powder, and proceed to set Rain back up safely while they sleep or switch. Roserade is one of the fastest users of Sleep Powder, and has juuust enough speed to cripple many specific threats. EVs outspeed neutral base 100s and everything slower than +spe nature Rotom-A (without Scarf). This is pretty much any bulky threat I can think of without changing its nature. If an enemy Rotom outsped my Kingdra after DD, and KO'd it, I know that it has a Scarf, which helps somewhat in prediction. Aside from a fast Sleep Powder, it also has the ability to absorb Toxic Spikes from my field for free, and it can absorb status with Natural Cure. All of these properties make it a wonderful support, but it also checks bulky waters with Leaf Storm, and Celebi as well as other grasses with Sludge Bomb. I wanted to run Weather Ball for Heatran, but even with rain Heatran with Scarf is gonna be scary and I have plenty of other pokes to handle water-type coverage better, and nothing else with poison coverage. Also wanted Toxic Spikes, but it could interfere with PAR spread from Rotom, and Sleep Powder in longer games. There's just no room for it. Aside from speed EVs, the HP EVs give it some special bulk and allow it to survive 3 Seismic Tosses, as well as hitting a Leftovers number. The rest goes into SpAtk to be scary, with 12 going into defense to 100% of the time survive an Adamant CB Scizor Bullet Punch, assuming that it is at full HP.

Edit: Been thinking of replacing this with a standard SD Qwilfish for more power in exchange for utility now that Rotom is more SpDef statted, since it packs that needed Poison-typing, and Roserade itself doesn't cover any weaknesses of my sweepers (Dragon, Poison, Flying, or Bug). Furthermore, Rotom is best friend to Qwilfish, and this team already has reliable rain setters. No status absorption (aside from Toxic a la Scizor or Qwilfish or Ludicolo eating Leech Seed) will be missed, but if Qwilfish gets a status it can always go boom boom so hm. Makes the team more offensive in nature with 3 dedicated sweepers, two offensive supporters, and a defensive support.


Brotom (Rotom-Wash) @ Damp Rock
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunder
- Shadow Ball / Will-O-Wisp
- Hydro Pump
- Rain Dance

I feel like this thing demands to be included in the team, and yet I am not sure what I'm supposed to do with it. It's my only Flying resist aside from Kabutops, who is not going to last into the lategame most of the time, and easily my best Fighting and Ground resist. Aside from its other useful resists that are covered by the others, it has offensive Ghost coverage (literally the only attack aside from Rocks that KO Shedinja), Thunder can spread PAR if lucky, and Hyrdo Pump hurts just as much with pseudo-STAB. Electric coverage from Rotom is most welcome here, checking waters like Tentacruel and Empoleon that grass doesn't. It serves as my only spinblocker as well. It has access to Trick, Will-O-Wisp, and Pain Split as non-attacking options as well, and can run more defensive EVs as yet another option. However I feel like its speed is at a knife's edge, and maxing it allows it to outrun many bulkier threats like Gyarados. Choice with Trick could be cool, but one of its strengths in this team is its versatility. Will-O-Wisp over Shadow Ball seems like the most reasonable change to the set, and also it still KOs Shedinja that way. It has some conflict with Thunder's PAR, but eh. Burns can open up some switch-in opportunities for other rain abusers, but then grasses wall it, so I am having issues settling on it. I'm considering going a bulkier spread, sacrificing some SpAtk for HP like Roserade, but unlike Roserade, Rotom's base damage stat isn't as sufficient. I guess it isn't built to last forever, and it gets its job done reasonably well.

Edit: Been running 252 HP / 40 SpD / 216 Spe with Calm nature, using Wisp over Shadow Ball. EVs ensure it survives spinners that like rain, such as Starmie's and Tentacruel's surfs at 3HKO, while also outspeeding Gyarados and slower. Wisp helps it become a physical tank without investment in EVs.


Ludicobro (Ludicolo) @ Life Orb
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 60 HP / 252 SpA / 196 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 3 Atk / 30 SpA
- Surf
- Grass Knot
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power [Electric]

Basically the return of what was my specially-based Kingdra, now duck flavored. Ludicolo is a bit slower, less physically bulky with more weaknesses in its typing. Its typing offensively is a great boon against potential walls, and its coverage is immense. It could run Expert Belt with that coverage, and I'm genuinely considering it since it has bulk and defensive typing going for it which Life Orb hampers. This is my end-game cleaner generally, which utilizes its movepool and coverage above all else to do damage. Unlike Kingdra, Ludicolo NEEDS the rain, and T-Tar/Abomasnow being available to the enemy hinders it greatly. Currently, it is the only thing that has ice-type coverage in my team, and its HP Elec is also very welcome to help counter Gyara and Empoleon. It doesn't need to set its own rain, since 4/6 of my team can do it instead, and I feel like it really needs to keep momentum in that last part of the game with super-effective coverage. There is some irony that Ludicolo is the only pokemon in this team that has no Dance-based move. EVs currently allow outspeeding neutral base 100s and positive Rotom-A, though there's a good argument for going max to outspeed all positive base 95s and below (like Yanmega, who scares Ludicolo) and neutral Infernape. SpAtk is maxed and Modest to hurt stuff good. It cannot afford to forego damage for more speed. The rest is put into HP to provide bulk. Might go 196 spe EVs and Expert Belt to better survive priority, or max speed and Life Orb for all-in offense. It's tried and true, not much else to say.


So what does this team not have?

Lack of Taunt user - Generally I'm trying to set up myself, or use offense to push through stall

Lack of phazing - No Roar/Haze is another tool I lack, especially compounded by lack of Taunt

No Spinner - Nothing I have is particularly weak to Rocks, and offense takes priority generally with rain being limited

Strong revenge outside of rain - Scizor/Kabutops have priority, but Kabutops will be KO'd and Scizor isn't built for revenge

Lack of coverage - No fighting or ground moves is noticeable


Notable threats

Taunt leads - Kabutops is not the fastest, but can play some mindgames by breaking sashes with good prediction.

Setup - No Taunt to prevent setup, no Roar to force a switch either

Tyranitar - Easily one of the most prominent pokes around, T-Tar's ability is always threatening to hamper this team, further compounded by its gargantuan bulk. Most of my team can outspeed it barring +2 DD, and everything can hit it for SE.

Hippowdon/Abomasnow - Not as common as T-Tar, still scary for their weather inducing effects. Hippowdon is a non-issue, but Abomasnow is pretty neutral to everything here aside from being countered by Scizor.

Walls - In general this team doesn't have great issues with wallbreaking, but Cresselia can be hard to KO, especially since the only SE in the team is Rotom's Shadow Ball. Jirachi isn't hit hard by anything in my team either, though it isn't necessarily a wall.

Bulky waters - Most don't like Roserade and can't OHKO with Ice Beam, and Rotom/Ludicolo are solid checks as well with their STABs.

Celebi/bulky grasses - Celebi with HP Fire is a bit of an issue for Scizor and Roserade, but the rain helps in mitigating it. Roserade runs Sludge Bomb to check these.

Dragons - Dragonite resists something off every set, and can set up if left unchecked, generally the same with enemy Kingdra. Ludicolo in rain is pretty solid, so is Kingdra to some extent


That's about it I think. Suggestions needed!
 
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