I made a list kinda lame but still a list
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OU DPP OU Viability Ranking: mk. V
- Thread starter 16bit
- Start date
As pretty as all these tiers are I find them pretty unusable as a lurker/viewer. All the mons run together without any depth of understanding. The long form text posts are much more valuable to actually read the insights as to why someone thinks something is good or not.
Hello,
I am pretty new to DPP OU, having only played the tour in a few seasonals/global championships, but one observation I wanted to make was that the lower-viability mons seem to be less viable here than in other tiers. The drop off from A- and upper B+ to B and below is truly massive.
For instance, only a small number of Pokemon below the consensus B+ rank have seen any significant use in tour play. out of BKC's viability ranking, only Scizor (B, 7 uses), Celebi (B-, 5 uses), and Forretress (B-, 2 uses) have received more than 1 use in the most recent SPL. Looking at Excal's viability ranking, exactly 0 of the mons below B+ got more than 1 use in the past SPL. Although I only selected 2 users as examples, a similar trend persists throughout the VRs I've seen here; the B rank and below hold little to no Pokemon that are used in tours. There is nothing comparable to, say, ADV OU's Heracross, Hariyama, and Marowak, C and D-rank Pokemon that have a relevant niche and receive significant tournament play.
My question, thus, is do these Pokemon that are around B rank on everyone's list but receiving very little usage have a niche? Are they worth putting in the B rank and simply not used in tours due to people's tendency to prefer standard? Or should the VR be more spaced out, include a gap, or something similar?
As a newcomer, i've seen basically none of the Pokemon ranked B and below in action, so if anyone wants to talk about some of their favorite underrated picks (ideally with replays and teams) that would definitely help people learn how they can be effectively used.
Thanks!
I am pretty new to DPP OU, having only played the tour in a few seasonals/global championships, but one observation I wanted to make was that the lower-viability mons seem to be less viable here than in other tiers. The drop off from A- and upper B+ to B and below is truly massive.
For instance, only a small number of Pokemon below the consensus B+ rank have seen any significant use in tour play. out of BKC's viability ranking, only Scizor (B, 7 uses), Celebi (B-, 5 uses), and Forretress (B-, 2 uses) have received more than 1 use in the most recent SPL. Looking at Excal's viability ranking, exactly 0 of the mons below B+ got more than 1 use in the past SPL. Although I only selected 2 users as examples, a similar trend persists throughout the VRs I've seen here; the B rank and below hold little to no Pokemon that are used in tours. There is nothing comparable to, say, ADV OU's Heracross, Hariyama, and Marowak, C and D-rank Pokemon that have a relevant niche and receive significant tournament play.
My question, thus, is do these Pokemon that are around B rank on everyone's list but receiving very little usage have a niche? Are they worth putting in the B rank and simply not used in tours due to people's tendency to prefer standard? Or should the VR be more spaced out, include a gap, or something similar?
As a newcomer, i've seen basically none of the Pokemon ranked B and below in action, so if anyone wants to talk about some of their favorite underrated picks (ideally with replays and teams) that would definitely help people learn how they can be effectively used.
Thanks!
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I think to some extent a lot of the Pokemon in the B rank are difficult to build with but have the potential and toolkit to be very viable. As an example, Togekiss is a very underutilized pkmn that has a lot of potential but its typing is awkward to build with sometimes. Also, rain which wasn't used much this SPL is a consistent playstyle (not a mu fish contrary to popular belief). So to answer your question, yeah I think it's due to people's tendencies but also the constraints in the teambuilder. That said, I think the main reason is that this SPL was a new metagame that dpp players needed to explore more and figure out, which meant that people were sticking with the most versatile & easiest pkmn to build with as opposed to the sleeper picks.
For rain check out BIHI vs Christo this SPL and Tricking vs ABR from semis of classic. Others that come to mind are tama vs mael from spl semis (Camerupt), me vs McMeghan in classic poffs, shawyu vs raichy from last SPL (dugless gastro team), as well as august's slowbro team that I believe he linked in the post-dug thread. There are a ton more examples if you do some digging around and if you have any questions about specific mons then feel free to ask.
This looks fun, might as well give my take
S+ for the most dominant pokemon in the tier. Easy to fit on teams, very flexible, very powerful, very consistent and hugely impactful on teambuilding and the overall shape of the meta. For me, nothing comes close to Jirachi.
S for some huge threats, and consistent performers across a range of teams styles. The meta has shifted to adapt to these pokemon, but they remain dominant regardless. S rank for me.
A+ for some truly oppressive pokemon. Less consistent/ powerful/ metagame defining than S rank for me, but noticeably more important than lower tier options.
A for pokemon with very few weaknesses and great game to game impact. Consistent performers, these are some of the best offensive options in the tier.
A- for less consistent, but still very potent pokemon. These pokemon fulfil some important roles with little competition from higher tier options.
B+ these are still important and powerful pokemon, but they tend to be slightly harder to fit on teams, and they face a bit more competition for a team slot.
B rank pokemon require significantly more team support/ fit on a narrower range of teams and can be somewhat inconsistent game to game. The pros still outweigh the cons, and they have some important advantages to make them worth considering.
B- for some powerful pokemon which require extensive support in order to function/ are noticeably inconsistent. Worth using on the right teams.
C+ is really the cut off for viability in my eyes. These pokemon do have advantages which allow them to fill certain niches, but in general their weaknesses outweigh their strengths and it will take a pretty specific kind of team to get the most out of these pokemon.
C for pokemon with some kind of niche that is overshadowed by weakness/ inconsistency/ teambuilding restrictions.
C- for unviable mons.
That's just my 2 cents on the current meta.
edit - oops cresselia should be slightly higher for a screen setter i think.
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Imo jirachi doesnt belong in s+. i wont even try arguing its not amazing but i dont feel like it dictates the format in such a fashion to warrant s+. s+ is for stuff like pdon in gen 7 ubers, that is essentially required for a serious team. you can have success with a team that doesnt have jira.
I only plan to talk about a few of my rankings in this post for now but I'm happy to answer any questions about it
A+:
Gyarados
Gyarados is amazing right now, and it's probably the best DD mon in the tier rn. It's amazing at many points in the game, it performs consistently game in and game out, and wacan berry helps it not be immediately stopped in it's tracks by things like scarf rotom, agility zapdos, and electric types as a whole. Although it's more than capable of doing well late game, I find it to be best earlier on to wallbreak or soften opposing mons up for it's teammates in the back, like Lucario. I find it to be particularly good at breaking early on when used in conjunction with another dd sweeper, dragonite, since they both have massive attack stats and are great at busting open bulkier teams and breaking in general with their powerful stab attacks, and after a boost sometimes they sweep through opposing teams within a few turns before I even get a chance to use other pokemon on my team. Definitely top tier right now and deserving of A+.
Metagross
Metagross is, in my opinion, the best lead in the current meta; it's ridiculously consistent, always does something, and it often 2-0's teams and can even 3-0 a team as a lead. Even outside the lead slot though, its great. It's a very good agility sweeper, it's great at destroying fat mons like hippo and gliscor with explosion, it's great at getting rocks up, and it can be slapped on almost any team. My favorite set is lead sash Metagross, but scarf, trick iron ball, agility, and lead without sash are great choices.
A-:
Lucario:
I've been using Lucario a lot lately, and the more I use it the more I love it. It's a superb late game cleaner with it's SD set, and it's actually pretty decent earlier on in a match. I often like to bring it out after I blow up my azelf on something to finish them off with extreme speed or cc depending on their speed. I love bullet punch in the last slot to handle gengar, but crunch and ice punch are also fine choices. I've yet to mess with other Lucario sets, but overall it's pretty great in my experience with it's sd set
Infernape:
While it definitely is worse right now and it liked previous iterations of the meta better, I think Infernape is still good. Just nowhere near as easy to fit on teams as it used to be. It may lack defensive utility and is a bit inconsistent, but apart from Jirachi and Tyranitar, it's offensive utility is almost unmatched. It's got pretty good power and speed, an amazing stab combo, and a ton of powerful coverage moves. It is very prone to getting worn down, but lefties and (to a lesser extent) expert belt can help to lessen that issue. Life orb I think can still work and is decent, but it gets worn down really quickly with it. I haven't tried band yet or scarf. I've been messing with Infernape on a roserade spikes offense team I made, and it's a pretty good spikes abuser. With spikes support, it doesn't necessarily have to run expert belt or life orb, meaning it can run lefties to gain longevity. I've also been trying running a +spa nature with ape when I run lefties to give it a power boost while gaining longevity, and I think it has a lot of potential. As a general rule of thumb, I run lefties when I run a +spa nature or +atk nature, and expert belt when I'm running +spe.
Overall, Infernape has been knocked down a few pegs, but it's down, not out. It's still worth using in serious battles and is not to be under estimated.
B+:
Abomasnow:
I think Abomasnow is fairly underappreciated. Swords dance has really improved it's offensive sets, and imo it's Abomasnow's best set rn. It's mixed set isn't too shabby either. The defensive sets are kind of meh, but SD is just what the doctor ordered for it, and with the right support it fits on both offensive and some more bulky builds. Abomasnow dominates water types and does pretty well vs dragon types, and hail chips almost everything outside of clefable, mamoswine and the rare frosslass. I've found SD to be a particularly good fit on paraspam due to Abomasnow's low speed.
https://pokepast.es/9bd14642e211e63a
This Abomasnow paraspam team I made has gotten my alt to the 1400's on ladder so far. 140 speed ev's lets Abomasnow outrun special defense heatran and obliterate it with earthquake, and max attack lets it hit as hard as possible. With easily provided paralysis support from starmie, magnezone and jirachi and magnezone removing skarm, forre, and potentially heatran and opposing magnezone, Abomasnow is quite vicious.
Abomasnow has many weaknesses and a nasty stealth rock weakness, but I think it is one of the most underrated mons in the current meta and should be explored more, especially with it's swords dance set.
B:
Nidoqueen
I personally dislike nidoqueen in DPP and don't use it often, but even outside of that I think Nidoqueen is kind of mediocre. It's a staple of clefable stall and I like it there, and it's overall decent on stall, but toxic spikes are pretty inconsistent, and that issue has been really exacerbated with Roserade's rise in popularity. In theory it is good against dragonite and ttar, but most ttar and dragonites that are worth anything at all are gonna have sufficient ways to answer nidoqueen. Nido has good bulk and moves that hit them hard, but it doesnt wanna take dragonite's outrage, eq or (if it's the mixed set) draco meteor, and it doesn't wanna take earthquake or aqua tail from ttar.
Nidoqueen isn't bad and it's overall still pretty decent on stall, but it just isn't what it used to be and previous iterations of the meta were better for it.
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It’s amusing that people are saying to ban sleep (and have banned a bunch of other shit) but are just like “yeah, Jirachi is fine”
I’ve been hating him since at least 2008, probably earlier.
I’ve been hating him since at least 2008, probably earlier.
100%. If there’s anything that deters people from trying out this tier/gen, it’s Jirachi and the prevalence of how absolutely ridiculous t wave and para/hax based teams are this gen in particular. Head honcho of which is Jirachi. I’m surprised we unbanned Latias before suspecting this shit.
I’d put Spore behind it tbh in what needs to be looked at next.
Having said that, yeah, it’s easily S tier, for obvious reasons. One of them being turning the tide of the match it has no business turning… even Zone is hit or miss nowadays, they all seem to be well prepped.
Hey guys, it's been around 6 months since I last posted my VR here and wanted to make a few small updates to reflect how the metagame has been developing over the course of this year.
Changes:
Rotom moves down from A+ to A tier behind Metagross who now leads it
Dragonite > Skarmory, Flygon and Gliscor > Empo, Roserade moves from top of A- tier to bottom of A tier
Zapdos moves down to A- tier to lead it, Lucario moves up 8 slots in A- tier, Azelf > Bronzong
Milotic moves down to B+ tier, Nidoqueen > Celebi
Quagsire moves far up to top of B tier, Gastrodon and Ludicolo move up to B tier
Tentacruel and Moltres move up within B- tier, Slowbro and Froslass move ahead of Venusaur, Snorlax moves to B- tier from somewhere in the Cs
Might add some explanations later, if anyone wants me to take time to show the C tiers lmk, it would take me quite a bit though as I'd have a lot of stuff down there actually, including some mons that probably wouldn't be on anyone else's vr lmao
Changes:
Rotom moves down from A+ to A tier behind Metagross who now leads it
Dragonite > Skarmory, Flygon and Gliscor > Empo, Roserade moves from top of A- tier to bottom of A tier
Zapdos moves down to A- tier to lead it, Lucario moves up 8 slots in A- tier, Azelf > Bronzong
Milotic moves down to B+ tier, Nidoqueen > Celebi
Quagsire moves far up to top of B tier, Gastrodon and Ludicolo move up to B tier
Tentacruel and Moltres move up within B- tier, Slowbro and Froslass move ahead of Venusaur, Snorlax moves to B- tier from somewhere in the Cs
Might add some explanations later, if anyone wants me to take time to show the C tiers lmk, it would take me quite a bit though as I'd have a lot of stuff down there actually, including some mons that probably wouldn't be on anyone else's vr lmao
Based S+ Jirachi poster
I updated my own VR as well just to compare the one i'll make after SPL with this one :
My post-SPL VR with tons of shifts from before the tournament started.
Quick comments about each tier:
S: Jirachi and Tyranitar are by far the most influential Pokemon in the metagame. Jirachi's unrivaled versatility and oppressive traits take advantage of all of the top Pokemon's greatest assets better than any other Pokemon does. Tyranitar brings incredible role compression, sand, extremely good versatility, and the ability to mold itself well to lure/check almost anything. Its insane special bulk in sand holds the tier together to check a wide variety of special attackers. Trapping is also an incredible asset.
A+: Latias, Clefable, and Skarmory are busted. Flygon is here for its mixed set, which has everything u could want in an offensive pokemon: great speed, high power, superb defensive utility, and longevity via good typing and spikes immunity + sr resistance. Great breaker if you use it well.
Latias: insane versatlity, role compression, and offensive power
Clefable: magic guard, knock off, tons of utility moves, and amazing special wall
Skarmory: spikes (best spiker by far), defensive flexibility (pdef vs sdef), cool moves up its sleeve.
A: Breloom leading A tier seems very fit for me. Best knock off counterplay, spore, high breaking potential with sd sets, good prio in mach punch, desirable typing for ttar grounds and bulky waters. Heatran down from A+ because spikes and mixed flygon (who owns heatran af) could not be more popular than they currently are. Heatran is still fantastic but u can't just slap it on teams (like rose balances or bulky offenses) without accounting for mixgon spikes. It needs to adapt and u need to fit it wisely. Lucario makes it into A tier mainly for its scarf set being fantastic anti offense and anti stall in one (copycat). It's just a really good scarfer cause it's not easily trappable by mag and it can't be suit trapped. Great typing and CC stab + elemental punches to revenge kill the three big dders (gyara dnite ttar). Its sweeper sets are good as well.
A-: Honestly I think Rotom is overrated. It's great but I just don't think it's that amazing. It's ass vs clef, scarf sets are easy to trap, and rt rotom is passive. It definitely has its place and none of its main sets are bad but I just don't think it's as good as the pokemon in A tier. Swampert can be really good but I also find it a bit underwhelming compared to the A tier mons, mainly for its Spikes weakness and its struggles against common defensive Pokemon like Skarmory and Latias. Quagsire's defensive attributes are wonderful and it has a pretty diverse movepool with great tools like encore, counter, haze, and recover. It's an awesome Pokemon that is very solid against some of the most dangerous Pokemon in the metagame.
B+: If you look closely at A- and up, you will notice that there is not a single Pokemon that is weak to sand and all 3 hazards. This is why I can't justify Suicune in A- anymore. The Pokemon is just sort of mediocre: crocune sucks, offcmcune is often really underwhelming vs fat and relies on inaccuracy (hydro pump), and subcmcune has a lot of obstacles to overcome if it wants to work effectively. Lead ScarfTar puts Azelf in an awkward spot (although this Pokemon is still the king of offensive leads). I think Gastrodon is really good and is underutilized relative to how good it is in current meta. Roserade kinda stinks, I could see myself rating it even lower in the future, but it still has its place on some teams.
B: Cresselia is awesome and I think its niche is strong enough to put it above a lot of Pokemon in B. Nidoqueen is alright and fits really well on a handful of teams. Milotic's lack of sand immunity puts it at a more undesirable spot in the metagame compared to other Pokemon like Quagsire and Gastrodon, but it's still serviceable on certain squads. Uxie is pretty decent but honestly it's hard to justify it over other levitating Psychic types like Latias and Azelf. Aerodactyl leading well into ScarfTar is useful enough to put it in B tier.
B-: I'm not 100% sold by the order in this screenshot but the Pokemon there definitely belong. Don't rly have much to say about em except that Gallade, like Sakito mentioned in his post in SPL discussion, has a lot of potential to mess up some common styles. Lots of cool move options in its kit too.
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I plan to gradually add my explanations for my rankings, but for the moment here's my 2 cents on the current meta
S
Jirachi still is, and always will be, the best pokemon in DPP OU. It's versatility, defensive utility, offensive utility, number of sets, and overall excellence is unmatched. It's combo of serene grace, iron head and body slam is as obnoxious to deal with as ever (both on offensive and defensive sets and teams), and it's non Paraflinch sets are also quite good. Mixed jirachi is a good wincon on skarm clef teams, scarf is a good revenge killer, and cm is great alongside something like magma tran to trap lati. Even with it's already insane versatility and number of sets, people are still finding new sets for jirachi. Sub salac and CM Draco Meteor are both really cool sets that, while i've yet to build with them much, have a lot of potential and are definitely worth exploring more. Jirachi can pick and choose it's counters, and be molded into pretty much anything you want it to be for your team. It's a pokemon that you really can't go wrong with, can fit on every single team and it's always useful in some way (especially when it's paraflinch hax wins you a match you probably would have lost otherwise). It's still #1!
B+
Ape didn't get particularly better or worse in my eyes compared to last year. It still has some major problems, like it's frailty, proneness to getting worn down, and being stuffed by defensive lati, and roserade, which it loves as a partner, falling out of favor hasn't done it any good either. That said, it's really nice into skarm clef structures, and with its great coverage and decent power it can threaten other stall staples like quagsire. U-turn letting it damage latias and starmie and then get itself out is also great. I also think it has some cool utility it can bring to HO, such as it's new taunt + uturn set to keep defensive lati at low health for a teammate to take advantage of. it also has access to mach punch to help check scarf lucario (credit to Excal for that idea), which has been making massive waves in the current meta. Outspeeding jirachi and being able to seriously dent or ko it (and other steel types for that matter) is great too! While it's not great, I think Ape is overall pretty alright. It is definitely a very flawed pokemon whose issues hold it back, but I think it still has some genuine merit in the current meta
B-
Kingdra is awful. Rain is in a really bad spot right now, and it's the only style of team kingdra is worth using on. On every other archetype its pretty bad. Dragon dance sets are incredibly mediocre. They're too weak and there are many better options for dragon dance pokemon. Specs, it's best set, is only worth using on rain, which as stated is very out of favor right now. I do think kingdra messes me up when I don't account for it, but rain (and by extension, kingdra) is in dire need of an overhaul, as it really struggles right now.
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Empoleon - This thing is an actual menace with how many things it can do. It answers jirachi and latias pretty well, has access to knock to punish clef and gets up rocks really well. With torrent active, this mon is able to break through water resists with ease. SpDef sets are pretty good too, but generally I think investing a lot into bulk and spatk is better. Also empoleon usually is easy to fit protect on which is nice against ccat luc.
Magnezone - I am really big on magnezone, obviously magnet pull is the main reason why people use it. I've always thought that mag is good even aside from that tho. Magnet pull is very helpful for physical offense teams, but magnezone also can provide a solid switch into wisp rotom which can easily cripple physical attackers. With some spdef investment, it can serve as a temporary check to latias, with even modest specs surf not being able to 2hko it at full (with lefties and rocks). Also it accomplishes a similar thing to heatran, being able to bait in special walls and boom on them. Overall I think mag is a solid mon that still can provide a lot of use aside from trapping steels. Thunderbolt, twave, hp grass and metal sound is probably my favorite set with this because it is super unexpected yet reliable, metal sound accuracy is a pain tho.
Hippowdon - Spdef is able to deal with mixgon, which is very useful rn. Physdef sets also are amazing against offense, forcing metagross to boom or gyara to come in on rocks.
Jolteon - Lefties protect jolteon is a really cool set that I have had a ton of fun with. It kinda struggles in the current meta rn, which is pretty much everything in the B+ tier. All these mons are severely hurt by the prevelance of skarm clef lati teams, but outside of that they definitely have their use.
Rain - Kingdra can be used outside of full on rain teams, paired with things like Gengar or tran to try and remove ttar, a late game kingdra can work on more "hybrid" rain teams. All of the other rain sweepers tho are strictly confined to the more conventional rain structure. I would personally say these three are B+, but rain as a whole is heavily dependent on the enemy's team.
The metagame isn't diverse at all unfortunately. I kicked a lot of unmons to make it as close as possible to what is okay bringing in a serious game.
The new big 5
Jirachi and Tyranitar are essential pokemon in the metagame, the former using breaker sets while the latter uses Choice Scarf and Dragon Dance to enable wide variety of playstyles. Both are nice buffers for taking DM and are fairly flexible.
Clefable, Latias and Skarmory are staples of the current dominant playstyle: stall. With its twave roar set, Latias fixed a lot of stall's issues. It has a countless amount of resistances alongside a spikes immunity, while abusing well spikes itself. It is the main reason why Water types fell off a cliff on this VR. While this pokémon dumbs down the game by virtue of its attributes, I don't think it's not worth testing for now.
The strength of this 5 allowed defensive pokemon such as Hippowdon and Quagsire become more relevant.
A shift in the hazard game
The sturdiness of the big 5 has made resilience to passive damage the name of the game. Roserade has essentially disappeared from the planet. Scarftar's presence has made Starmie fairly rare: modern teams now resort to spikes immunity such as mixed Flygon, Gengar or Gliscor to compete with defensive teams. They can also make use of the behemoth Copycat Scarf Lucario to cheese some wins over greedy stall players, copying opposing Skarmory's whirlwind and phazing for 32 turns straight. One small winner is Forretress, who due to Rotom's slight fall, can now spin more freely versus opposing Skarmory.
For more standart hazard control play, Azelf finds itself unable to deny rocks from Choice Scarf Tyranitar, and now faces competition from Aerodactyl. Said mon also benefited from not having to deal with ugly lead matchups like Machamp, Metagross and aqua-Jet Empoleon. Disparition of previously mentionned leads favored (somewhat) 2 HO leads in Smeargle and Froslass: Both may not have the best Scarftar lead matchup, but they can heavily punish slower leads like Hippo.
Potential ways for offense
Some sets I'll throw there potential solutions for offense that I have seen being used.
- Heatran Lum-Magma-Taunt-dpulse can break Latias and threaten Clef. It often paves the way for Superachi, thought other mons could be used.
- Mixnite + taunt/spin. While it has not reached the main stage, I have seen a noticeable amount of attempts at using this in the past weeks.
- Machamp. With Bulk up it can create big holes as defensive teams have to switch around to defeat it. Not very splashable.
Pokemons that I think are overrated
Gliscor : It's not a bad pokemon per say, but it always fails to stallbreak the current stall and balance teams. I have not been convinced at all by those passive U-turn sets.
Cresselia : This remains a (fine) slave for HOs, but for a stall team it is nothing more than a matchup fish.
Pokemons I would like to see more from
Blissey: Even thought Clef spikes is as popular as ever, Blissey has a gigantic bulk, which be see used to great effect if the rest of the team was tailored to deal with stall.
Bronzong: It's starting to get the recognition it deserves. Defensive sets offer great longevity, a Latias blanket check and Protect to stop Copycat Lucario.
Waiting to see more opinions from players !
Wanted to do a mid year viability ranking:
I tried to order into what felt like good subtiers.
I'll comment on broad trends rather than going into each pokemon:
S tier: Only really jirachi and tyranitar belong with the best of the best in DPP. Jirachi's dizzyingly high versatility and ability to gatekeep a lot of threats in the tier w a simple physically defensive wish tect set show that despite the tier evolving around it, it still finds ways to fit on any type of team. Tyranitar also has this versatility, both with its choice scarf set anchoring stall teams and being one of the faces of HO w a dragon dance set. Tyranitar's bulk in sand and offensive prowess really allow it to fit any style of team
A+ tier: Like Adv, there can be a sort of "big 5" style of team w jirachi, tyranitar, skarmory, latias, clefable, x that is effective against a lot of the metagame. The big things in this section that are weird is the placement of skarmory and gyarados's placement. I mentioned in another post how i felt spikes are the biggest divider between different types of teams. I think one of the big differences between this time and last time around is just how much more ubiquitous Skarm is than previously. Skarmory can fit all styles of teams, is an incredibly effective wall, and can even dedicated lead to get hazards up early. Bc of how good spikes can be to limit your opponent's grounded options, I felt skarm should be elevated above latias and clef. Gyara also looks out of place up here, however, I think in such a polar metagame between stall and ho, gyara's mainstay on ho and effectiveness in some types of stall really elevate it high. The innovation of outrage on dd sets to punish latias and how one waterfall flinch is all you need to break walls shows why I think gyara belongs higher than previous iterations. Gyara also helps tie together HO teams defensively with intimidate + fight/water resists and w wacan or twave, can help remove scarfers so other dd mons can sweep. Lati and clef are still as great as ever. Latias's defensive flexibility, offensive power, and great role compression allow it to do everything from stall break w specs sets to check a lot of the tier w defensive sets. Clefable's magic guard is critical for mitigating spikes while covering special attackers, knock off got a buff and is still amazing, and calm mind sets are a bit underexplored at the moment but are still effective
A tier: Big things here are flygon decoupling from gliscor, falling breloom and heatran, metagross, and decoupling of dragonite and gyarados. Flygon's mixed set has been explored more than in the previous iteration, really limiting stall's counterplay while being difficult to wear down. I think an underrated aspect of flygon is its speed tier, which has helped push jirachi to run more max speed sets on stall and offensive. The rediscovery of the mix set and its effectiveness as a wallbreaker has pushed it apart from gliscor, where I always used to put them together as ground-types. Mixgon spikes's rise has had a huge effect on tran and loom status as grounded wall breakers, w spikes's effectiveness against rose spikes pushing tran way down in viability from last time. Both are quite effective as wallbreakers and instant offense, however, I really have to try to fit them in than last time. Metagross is as reliable as ever, as it more commonly leans into trick sets than previously. I decoupled dragonite and gyarados as while I find dragonite more destructive and HO is very effective, it also doesnt have quite the defensive utility that gyara has.
A- tier: Big things here are Gar + rotom-a coupling, diversifying gliscor, rise of lucario, fall of swampert. Gengar, if scarf tar is weakened or gone, can be very effective against offensive and defensive teams alike. Rotom-A also fills the ghost type niche while being way bulkier than gengar, but isnt as destructive as gengar. While wow is quite debilitating, rotom-a sometimes struggles to make something other than clefable answer on stall. I've loved specially defensive gliscor for years, but hadn't gone beyond taunt sets. The bulky pivots w u-turn or even role compression w rocks are really cool innovations and can help stall and even more balance teams survive. Lucario's rise is a lot due to its choice scarf set, probably the best scarfer in the metagame due to its excellent anti-HO properties and stall w copycat. While I think stall has adapted w protect users and priority, forcing them to lose a moveslot is super valuable. I feel swamp is good, but a tad harder to fit in my teambuilder imo. It takes a lot of hazard damage and can struggle w common defensive pieces like lati and skarm, while sometimes getting bowled over by ho. Empo is still as great as ever, a great way to early game get up rocks and knock clef for flygon.
B+ tier: Big things here are rise of donphan, quag, scizor coming back up. Donphan's toolkit seems perfect for this metagame -- a very bulky spinner with good anti mixgon priority that can spin on common big 5 teams that use tar to trap starmie. It can also set up rocks and helps otherwise really effective pokemon like zapdos w hazard weakness become more consistent. Quag I think is a bit of casualty of the changes to the mixgon rise, but is still really effective anti ho mon. Scizor reviving due to the offensive sd changes (occa is so cool) and magnezone moving away from hp fire. Despite the hazard weakness, it can be quite strong on ho
B tier: Big things here are return of spinners such as star and forre and the fall of rose spikes. A more spikes heavy meta leads to people prioritizing spinners and rest forre being somewhat unkillable against stall and starmie finding ways to be useful is a cool adaptation. The meta has really adapted to rose spikes imo, with it just almost feeling unusable in the old state against some ho and mixgon spikes. Rose builds will need to adapt to stay relevant.
For the rest: Celebi can be quite useful in certain builds w its unique resistances and enjoying t spikes being less prominent but is still kinda bad. Nido is alright and fits certain teams, but generally doesnt like t spikes not being as good and a lot of teams would like a ground type not weak to eq. Aero is a nice anti lead to choice scarf ttar, while uxie feels so spikes bait that it is hard to pick it over bulkier azelf to me now. Choice Scarf Magneton's anti ho abilities make it a somewhat usable over zone in the right team. A special mon I want to shout out is Heracross, as it can just overpower some teams that lack gliscor with the correct read. The last pokemon i rated was froslass, a usable mon that can be effective in getting spikes up. Everything in usable isn't really ordered, but is stuff I've tried and found could work
I tried to order into what felt like good subtiers.
I'll comment on broad trends rather than going into each pokemon:
S tier: Only really jirachi and tyranitar belong with the best of the best in DPP. Jirachi's dizzyingly high versatility and ability to gatekeep a lot of threats in the tier w a simple physically defensive wish tect set show that despite the tier evolving around it, it still finds ways to fit on any type of team. Tyranitar also has this versatility, both with its choice scarf set anchoring stall teams and being one of the faces of HO w a dragon dance set. Tyranitar's bulk in sand and offensive prowess really allow it to fit any style of team
A+ tier: Like Adv, there can be a sort of "big 5" style of team w jirachi, tyranitar, skarmory, latias, clefable, x that is effective against a lot of the metagame. The big things in this section that are weird is the placement of skarmory and gyarados's placement. I mentioned in another post how i felt spikes are the biggest divider between different types of teams. I think one of the big differences between this time and last time around is just how much more ubiquitous Skarm is than previously. Skarmory can fit all styles of teams, is an incredibly effective wall, and can even dedicated lead to get hazards up early. Bc of how good spikes can be to limit your opponent's grounded options, I felt skarm should be elevated above latias and clef. Gyara also looks out of place up here, however, I think in such a polar metagame between stall and ho, gyara's mainstay on ho and effectiveness in some types of stall really elevate it high. The innovation of outrage on dd sets to punish latias and how one waterfall flinch is all you need to break walls shows why I think gyara belongs higher than previous iterations. Gyara also helps tie together HO teams defensively with intimidate + fight/water resists and w wacan or twave, can help remove scarfers so other dd mons can sweep. Lati and clef are still as great as ever. Latias's defensive flexibility, offensive power, and great role compression allow it to do everything from stall break w specs sets to check a lot of the tier w defensive sets. Clefable's magic guard is critical for mitigating spikes while covering special attackers, knock off got a buff and is still amazing, and calm mind sets are a bit underexplored at the moment but are still effective
A tier: Big things here are flygon decoupling from gliscor, falling breloom and heatran, metagross, and decoupling of dragonite and gyarados. Flygon's mixed set has been explored more than in the previous iteration, really limiting stall's counterplay while being difficult to wear down. I think an underrated aspect of flygon is its speed tier, which has helped push jirachi to run more max speed sets on stall and offensive. The rediscovery of the mix set and its effectiveness as a wallbreaker has pushed it apart from gliscor, where I always used to put them together as ground-types. Mixgon spikes's rise has had a huge effect on tran and loom status as grounded wall breakers, w spikes's effectiveness against rose spikes pushing tran way down in viability from last time. Both are quite effective as wallbreakers and instant offense, however, I really have to try to fit them in than last time. Metagross is as reliable as ever, as it more commonly leans into trick sets than previously. I decoupled dragonite and gyarados as while I find dragonite more destructive and HO is very effective, it also doesnt have quite the defensive utility that gyara has.
A- tier: Big things here are Gar + rotom-a coupling, diversifying gliscor, rise of lucario, fall of swampert. Gengar, if scarf tar is weakened or gone, can be very effective against offensive and defensive teams alike. Rotom-A also fills the ghost type niche while being way bulkier than gengar, but isnt as destructive as gengar. While wow is quite debilitating, rotom-a sometimes struggles to make something other than clefable answer on stall. I've loved specially defensive gliscor for years, but hadn't gone beyond taunt sets. The bulky pivots w u-turn or even role compression w rocks are really cool innovations and can help stall and even more balance teams survive. Lucario's rise is a lot due to its choice scarf set, probably the best scarfer in the metagame due to its excellent anti-HO properties and stall w copycat. While I think stall has adapted w protect users and priority, forcing them to lose a moveslot is super valuable. I feel swamp is good, but a tad harder to fit in my teambuilder imo. It takes a lot of hazard damage and can struggle w common defensive pieces like lati and skarm, while sometimes getting bowled over by ho. Empo is still as great as ever, a great way to early game get up rocks and knock clef for flygon.
B+ tier: Big things here are rise of donphan, quag, scizor coming back up. Donphan's toolkit seems perfect for this metagame -- a very bulky spinner with good anti mixgon priority that can spin on common big 5 teams that use tar to trap starmie. It can also set up rocks and helps otherwise really effective pokemon like zapdos w hazard weakness become more consistent. Quag I think is a bit of casualty of the changes to the mixgon rise, but is still really effective anti ho mon. Scizor reviving due to the offensive sd changes (occa is so cool) and magnezone moving away from hp fire. Despite the hazard weakness, it can be quite strong on ho
B tier: Big things here are return of spinners such as star and forre and the fall of rose spikes. A more spikes heavy meta leads to people prioritizing spinners and rest forre being somewhat unkillable against stall and starmie finding ways to be useful is a cool adaptation. The meta has really adapted to rose spikes imo, with it just almost feeling unusable in the old state against some ho and mixgon spikes. Rose builds will need to adapt to stay relevant.
For the rest: Celebi can be quite useful in certain builds w its unique resistances and enjoying t spikes being less prominent but is still kinda bad. Nido is alright and fits certain teams, but generally doesnt like t spikes not being as good and a lot of teams would like a ground type not weak to eq. Aero is a nice anti lead to choice scarf ttar, while uxie feels so spikes bait that it is hard to pick it over bulkier azelf to me now. Choice Scarf Magneton's anti ho abilities make it a somewhat usable over zone in the right team. A special mon I want to shout out is Heracross, as it can just overpower some teams that lack gliscor with the correct read. The last pokemon i rated was froslass, a usable mon that can be effective in getting spikes up. Everything in usable isn't really ordered, but is stuff I've tried and found could work
There will be a VR update soon, and this is what I submitted. Not really that different from what I posted a few months ago but shifted some minor stuff around and included C ranks in order.
Cloyster: Honestly should be C+/C, interesting suicide lead that has merit
Blaziken: has access to knock off and is pretty strong, potential for antilead
Drapion: Idk it's gotta be able to do something
Houndoom: Unexplored but has potential to be ultra fringe viable, surely better than the likes of staraptor
Lanturn: Interesting typing and 101 HP subs, maybe on rain?
Mismagius: Thunder Wave and some cool utility moves, surprisingly annoying to encounter in a game
Entei: Antilead momento
Weezing: Spikes immune and could have some use with some stall disrupting moves and good physical bulk for Lucario, Breloom, Gyarados who are omega threats
Ampharos: It has static, strong elec stab, and heal bell (?)
Armaldo: Battle armor curse sweeper with interesting moves
Glalie: It gets spikes, inner focus, explosion, and has an interesting speed tier
Gorebyss: On rain this shit is kinda a threat and has a niche over other swift swim guys with its rly strong SpA and good pdef
Marowak: Extreme power with many deficits but could work on some gravity/paraspam shit
Regirock: Curse sweeper not nearly as bothered by Breloom compared to Cradily, insane bulk
Rampardos: Kamikaze head smash go brrrrr, don't really think some fat teams have any counterplay other than for Rampardos to kill itself as long as it can hit all
Skuntank: Removes tspikes, scarfer who can trap gengar go boom and revenge kill stuff. Cool synergy with the unviable monkey (Infernape)
Swalot: Sticky Hold + eccentric but vast movepool. Maybe someone can find a niche for him?
Whiscash: Good typing, 101 HP subs, Dragon Dance
Blaziken: has access to knock off and is pretty strong, potential for antilead
Drapion: Idk it's gotta be able to do something
Houndoom: Unexplored but has potential to be ultra fringe viable, surely better than the likes of staraptor
Lanturn: Interesting typing and 101 HP subs, maybe on rain?
Mismagius: Thunder Wave and some cool utility moves, surprisingly annoying to encounter in a game
Entei: Antilead momento
Weezing: Spikes immune and could have some use with some stall disrupting moves and good physical bulk for Lucario, Breloom, Gyarados who are omega threats
Ampharos: It has static, strong elec stab, and heal bell (?)
Armaldo: Battle armor curse sweeper with interesting moves
Glalie: It gets spikes, inner focus, explosion, and has an interesting speed tier
Gorebyss: On rain this shit is kinda a threat and has a niche over other swift swim guys with its rly strong SpA and good pdef
Marowak: Extreme power with many deficits but could work on some gravity/paraspam shit
Regirock: Curse sweeper not nearly as bothered by Breloom compared to Cradily, insane bulk
Rampardos: Kamikaze head smash go brrrrr, don't really think some fat teams have any counterplay other than for Rampardos to kill itself as long as it can hit all
Skuntank: Removes tspikes, scarfer who can trap gengar go boom and revenge kill stuff. Cool synergy with the unviable monkey (Infernape)
Swalot: Sticky Hold + eccentric but vast movepool. Maybe someone can find a niche for him?
Whiscash: Good typing, 101 HP subs, Dragon Dance
I’m not very good at dpp but I feel like I never hear camerupt talked about? What does he do that led you to put him so high? Is it just Rocks + High SpA + Unique typing/Bulk = Niche?
Camerupt does really well against electric types and also has rocks, high offensive stats and explosion. The first trait especially makes it a great partner to waters like gyara and empoleon. It's stab combo is also pretty nice. Solid rock helps to make up for its mediocre bulk as well. It's very slow though, and any water move will end it even with solid rock. Still though it's a very cool mon
Oh that makes sense, I forgot about explosion. I think it’s cool when unique mons from lower tiers find niches. Thanks so much for explaining!