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Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Welcome to the DPP LC viability ranking project. In this project, we will "tier" every Pokemon based on usefulness. The old thread had not been updated in many years and the metagame it reflects has changed significantly, so we are starting anew!
Thanks to all who contributed to this project, and anyone interested in submitting their own list can contact me. There are hopefully more old gens LC resources to come!
Nominating Digglet to raise to A its capacity to trap munchlax makes it pretty much a factor in every single game, it has enough u comtility, dig alone liberates like every single elite special attacker and Sweeper in this tier which makes it on pair with the Pursuiter as viable trappers in this tier, it is also extremally spammable, way more than other mons in the A- tier
- Rain is better than ever and Buizel is a strong enough feature on the standard version.
- Crani was a major oversight on the first ranking (oops), scarf head smash tears apart plenty of teams. It tends to lose to sash leads and has some bad mus, which is why it isn't as high as the very splashable mons above it.
- Growlithe has been seeing use as a good anti-lead against people spamming balance.
- Krabby has been suffering as more and more people prep for rain.
- Voltorb is crucial to rain and screens and is pretty decent even outside of cheese
Diglett was not voted to A this time, and even though I did vote to raise it I was definitely unsure about it. Diglett would be the least splashable Pokemon in A rank; You can depend on every other Pokemon in that rank to do some work in every matchup, but Diglett has several matchups that it struggles greatly in (snover lead teams, for instance). You could argue it makes up for this with how well it does in some matchups, but the rest of the council thinks that A rank and above should probably be reserved for staples of the metagame.
With LCWC over for Spain, I want to do 4 nominations:
B- > B+ Spin is good, Tspikes are good (only 2 other grounded Mons are ranked and I think Croagunk is very overrated), being a Grass that doesn,t get OHKOd by Snover's Wood Hammer while still being resistant to Ice is very good. This Mon is great and fits in almost every structure. The 3 battles I used a Tentacool in I won, losing the 2 I didn,t bring it. Unranked > B+ . Gligar is the second best Mon in the Tier and has Sand Veil, an ability so good that it has been banned in many Tiers and won,t be surprised (but will strongly oppose) if it happens here too. If the opponent doesn,t bring Snover or Rain, Sand is a very strong playstyle and can succeed even vs those weathers. 2 of my wins were with Sand while facing a Snover. Unranked > B-. Strong secondary Sand Veil Mon. Has SD + Sucker Punch, can be defesive with Spikes + HP Ice, since it walls some Gligar variants. Faster than Munchlax and Bronzor, so can fish a miss with Sub. Focus Punch is another option to discourage Snover coming it. Being a Grass type, Cacnea can do something vs Rain, especially since Chinchous don,t even run Ice Beam often.
Unranked > B. Main nomination. Numerous memes have been made about Steel-Rock being a terrible defensive combination and mostly there are right...in other Tiers. Shieldon happens to wall half of the Tier.
(Shieldon) (M) @ Shed Shell / Oran Berry
Ability: Sturdy
Level: 5
EVs: 196 HP / 20 Atk / 212 Def / 20 SpA / 52 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Rock Blast / Rock Slide
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Ice Beam
Other moves that can be explored (in the Rock Blast slot, Ice Beam is too important for not letting Gligar switch-in): Thunderbolt, Earthquake, Flash Cannon, Iron Head, Roar, Hidden Power Fire.
Note about Rock Blast: In DPP, when called by Sleep Talk, it will always hit 1 time, therefore Rock Slide is an option (don,t use SE on a defensive Mon). However, Rock Blast is still very viable when awake due to multihit Moves being very strong in LC.
Defensive Mons tend to not be as good in LC as in higher Tiers, however if they totally wall several big threats, that changes. Shieldon can be used outside of Sand, but he is mainly a Sand and hazard abusser. Shieldon walls many Mons, so he forces switches. Any chip damage (hazards, Sand and Shieldon's hits) accumulates through the match, wearing down foes. The longer the match goes, the more damage Shieldon will be able to do.
Ice Beam is a must in this set. Since we are using Shieldon with Sand, opposing Sand Veil Gligar will already be stronger than usually, don,t let him switch-in for free if possible.
Shed Shell is the better item, since Shieldon is very vulnerable to all trappers that exist.
Match-up of Shieldon (in Sand) vs the (current) Viability Rankings (Green=100% win. Yellow=Most likely win. Orange=Can go either way. Red=Most likely lose. Black=Unwinnable).
S Shieldon loses if Munchlax has Brick Break, Superpower or Earthquake. Shieldon fully walls otherwise. Shieldon can wear it down if Munchlax switches into it. Shieldon loses. However, Gligar can,t safely switch-in due to the threat of Ice Beam.
A+ Currently, on-site set doesn,t have HP Fight, so Shieldon fully walls the most common set. Shieldon loses to HP Fight, but isn,t OHKOd from full in Sand, even if Gastly is LO. Shieldon has decent odds of winning 1vs1 vs S, but can,t switch-in. Neither can Snover into it. Vs Scarf, Shieldon switches into Blizzard but can be caught by HP Ground. Shieldon loses and can be OHKOd by Hydro in Sand (which can be avoided with another nature). Shieldon can wear Chinchou down on the switch with Rock Blast, each hit does 25%. Shieldon hard loses. Worst Shieldon match-up of the Tier. Bronzong not only competes with Shieldon for the role of bulky Steel, it also fully walls it while being immune to Sand and Hazards. It often runs EQ and sometimes even Recycle. If I nominated Shieldon only to B and not higher is due to Bronzor existing. Shieldon fully walls Duskull. If Duskull uses Thief... then it won,t heal, since it will steal a Shed Shell and won,t be able to steal items from another Mon.
A Shieldon will generally win the 1 vs 1. Can also switch-in due to having only 9,8% of being 2HKOd by Fire Blast. Bad match-up, Shieldon can only wear Staryu down on the switch with Rock Blast. Terrible match-up due to being Fight Mon. Shieldon fully walls Stunky. Koffing has 1,1% chance to 3HKO Shieldon with Fire Blast in Sand.
A- Shieldon loses, but will surprise Diglett by having Shed Shell and escaping. Diglett can,t switch into Ice Beam if Rocks are up. This is one of the only Waters Shieldon can actually stay in vs as long as Sand is up. It will be esentially a trade. Shieldon is OHKOd by CC, obviously. However, most Mankey are choiced, so Shieldon can switch into every other move. Has Low Kick :( At least can,t switch-in without taking a lot of damage and weak to Hippopotas. Shieldon fully walls Taillow. Worst Rain Mon to fight against with Sand. On-site set doesn,t have Brick Break, so Shieldon most of the times will fully wall Aipom. The Monkey doesn,t really have reason to run Brick Break, except when expecting Screens. Shieldon is 2HKOd by Flare Blitz, so can,t switch-in. Neither can Ponyta and Shieldon will probably win 1vs1. Shieldon will take +6 Seed Bomb and combined with Sand, 3 Rock Blast have a good chance to OHKO. Has EQ, resists every move and immune to Sand, therefore terrible match-up. OHKOd by EQ. Most of the time this Mon is Scarf, so not the worst match-up. A problem after it puts Rain. However, we have Hippo to reset the weather, so it ends up being a mind game. Shieldon does decent damage with Rock Blast.
B+ OHKOs with LO HP Ground or Fight, but doesn,t always run the moves. More dangerous than Gastly. +1 HP Fight OHKOs (most of the time), +0 doesn,t. Doesn,t always run the move. Shieldon fully walls Porygon, but fears the Trick and the rare HP Fight/Ground.
:wailmer: Water Mon. Can switch into Boom or non Water Moves. Well, we have Shed Shell for something. If Shieldon has Oran Berry, he has a better match-up than most Mons vs Wynaut, due to Rock Blast being a multi-hit move able to miss. Sand will wear down Wynaut and it might end up winning or at least trading. Hilariously, +1 LO Waterfall doesn,t OHKO, so its a trade at worst (without flinches) in practice, Dratini will die to recoil, hazards and sand after Ice Beam. Water Mon.
B On-site set doesn,t have EQ, so its fully walled. Only problem is Pineco being able to spin and put hazards before being killed. LO Adamant Waterfall only OHKOs 75% of the time and the Mon doesn,t even always run it or the item. One of the few Water Mons Shieldon can 1vs1 with decent odds. Use Shed Shell to run away from this. One of the on-site sets has HP Fight as option for some reason, but in Sand it doesn,t OHKO. Walls Brick or Hydroless versions. Fully walled. Has a 9,8% to 2HKO with Flare Blitz, so this is a win most of the time.
B- Has Fight Moves, so bad match-up. Can,t switch-in at least. Will die quickly to sand and its own status, but will OHKO Shieldon with the right prediction. Water Mon. Water Mon. Why is this Mon ranked instead of Sandshrew, who outside of Ice Shard has better everything? Its ground, so it wins but is very damaged by Ice Beam. Hidden Power Ground doesn,t OHKO in Sand and it rarely runs the move in first place. 100% sure win, but by the time Shieldon appears, it will likely already be dead. Fuck Water Mons.
All in all, I think Shieldon has enough merits to be ranked due to walling most normal Mons that are not Munchlax (and even some sets of it), most poison Mons and Duskull, which is also a important Mon to wall.
Edit: LCWC Replays with Shieldon:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4lc-2028004995 < Doesn,t do anything here due to getting critted by Cranidos's Head Smash. However, it shows the bulk, since it resisted said crit. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4lc-2039603548 < The actual Shieldon highlight match. Fully walls Stunky and Gastly, wears down Munchlax several times on the switch, surprises Diglett by escaping from it with Shed Shell and wins the final duel vs Snover.
We voted on some changes, and will probably vote on more controversial ones after LCWC.
Raises: A- --> A B+ --> A- B --> B+
Water spam is simply one of (if not the) most consistent archetypes. I think that mantyke's dominance and splashability both on rain and on balance is comparable to other A rank mons (certainly houndour), and is clearly a step above the rest of A-. Wailmer was also a pretty easy raise, people have been experimenting with all sorts of sets to make it a nightmare to deal with in the lead slot, and it can often be an insta-win if it is kept in the back.
Scarf doduo is just way more solid than the rest of B, and should be ranked very similarly to mons like Tailow. Speaking of...
Drops: A- --> B+ A- --> B+ --> UR --> UR
Mankey is terrible and I'm tired of pretending it's not. Most teams have at least 2 fight resists, and 3-4 is not at all uncommon. With so many teams completely shutting down its main STAB move without even trying, it ends up being worse than just about every other scarfer. I'll discuss it more with the other rankers later, but I really think it could go even lower than this.
Tailow is very solid, but it's way more niche than the other members of A-. It has especially suffered from people running scarfers much more recently.
Slowpoke and Eevee are just not good. They are usable, but that is a very low bar in DPP. Because everything drops so easily in the tier, it is possible to make just about any Pokemon work. They might have some decent matchups, but both are a bad choice on any team trying to optimize its matchups.
We didn't vote on Eeveeto's nominations, but I'd argue they generally fall along the same lines as Slowpoke and Eevee. Sand has decent matchups here and there, but I don't think it should be included high on the VR when it has near unplayable matchups against rain and waterspam, without the massive upsides that other fishes have. Shieldon just seems like a defensive Aron in a meta where offense is key; if someone knows the set I can't see it being a serious threat in most matchups.
Hippopotas would probably be the exception, we'll vote on it later for B-. I can also see Tentacool in B.
to a
last update acknowledged the rise of wailmer but i think its only become better since then. ive seen oran berry and even specs in the lead slot and those are cool, though the scarf set is definitely the most consistent and versatile as it can be a strong lead, revenge killer / midgame wallbreaker, or lategame cleaner. a wailmer at full hp is one of the most difficult things to handle in this metagame, and if u have rocks up then mons like chinchou, munchlax, and snover are gonna have trouble switching in, esp if ur running modest. this mons damage output is so crazy it can often the opp in a situation where they have to sack something just to get a mon in safely that can check it, with the mons it invites in (chinchou, snover, munchlax) often not too difficult to quickly handle by one of its mates.
of course there is counterplay to it, like priority moves, as well as methods to limit its damage output like passive damage from rocks or hail or chip with munchlax pursuit, but its versatility lets it provide value even in more difficult matchups. wailmer can even opt for coverage like eq or hp fire to bop chinchou, snover, and croagunk which these mons must watch out for, though its often hard not to just click the funny water button, and i didnt even mention how wailmer benefits from and against rain or how it has boom. i was kinda surprised to see that its only a- when id say its way more consistent than all the mons there currently, though i also imagine its been brought up since that post with its rise and the general rise of water types in the meta.
Hi! As some may already know, Fantos hosted a DPP LC Invitational tournament that ended recently. Given this was over 150 games played, by a majority of player with extended experience in the tier, I thought it would be nice to share usage stats. Second part of this post will be me dwelving about personal thoughts on the tier.
Nothing negative about this man it is broken. I am just a little unsure of what is best on it, and I don't see that discussed so much? I think it's only good at clicking Blizzard and Wood Hammer, and maybe Ice Shard, does that mean you use Wood Hammer on Scarf over Energy Ball? If so how do you spread it? Should Mixed Berry sets forgo some SpA or Speed? And what should they even run as last move?
Would think the mon is even better if I fully understood all its whereabouts.
Lowest usage pokemon currently in A+, and by a rather large margin. I think it's fairly understandable, it is the greatest thing when you run into Wailmer and rain, but unless you run into a Wailmer/Chinchou/Mantyke core, neither Mantyke or Snover would have been underwhelming, while also being stronger mons in general. by their offensive presence.
Houndour is awkward. It's definitely a good mon, but Stunky does the trapping just better. It has other perks though! It is scary to switch on in general, does not rely on Lum to absorb Wisp, and being a Fire-type is just great (more on that after).
But if, when building, my main concern is trapping Ghosts, then Stunky almost always come out on top.
The ease this thing has to get two kills in games without a Bronzor is crazy. Almost makes me reconsider using ghosts at times, as this thing existing means you need back-up plans in case they just get trapped. Highest A ranked mon usage by a significant margin, for good reasons.
I have never put too much thoughts on this mons potential, non-lead ones are dangerous when given a turn I guess. However, I think Sash Voltorb outclasses it severly in the lead slot.
I have seen people claiming this should go lower, and, while it may show a little less consistency than rest of A-, I think this ranking is still accurate. Echoing what I was saying above about Houndour, I think being a Fire-type has many perks :
- Snover is broken and the only real means to exploit it are Fire Types and the passive Bronzor
- Punishes Bronzor particularly hard
- They are hard to switch on because of the Wisp threat, and even if Waters are amazing and all teams will carry one to sometimes three or more, it is a notable feat to force them in
- Wisp immunity is good
Even in poor Ponyta games, it will still likely get a few moves off on ground of having 19 Speed and by the virtue of being relatively physically bulky by having a fast Will-o-Wisp.
Forces the water/Snover/Croagunk to be revealed as soon as it gets on field, and still dent the first two for acceptable damage, good in early turns yet can clean some games, can boom and delete a water check to enable your other waters. One of the most impactful mon in A- in my opinion.
The amount of teams that outright lose to Scarf Lead is crazy too.
Rain is the scariest thing in builder and generally mandates multiple checks. Thing is said checks are #4 #5 and another top 10 mon, not hard to fit into teams at all. Rain is restrictive in builder, but not so strong in the actual game.
I find it actually a little frustrating that some "mid" mons get even more mid because they take a slot in a tier where they tend to be a little pricey. Munchlax and Gligar are both obviously hard mons to pass up on, and then you will dedicate a slot, if not two, not to lose to rain.
It is frequent to see unconventional mons do well in a game, which is part of the DPP LC charm, but those teams often tend to get mu-checked by rain because said mon is not named Snover/Chinchou.
The other thing I really despise about rain is Kabuto and Buizel sometimes getting work done through Waterfall flinches.
Only relevant use I've seen of Drifloon as of recently is in Screens. And not only I think the structure is slightly overrated, Drifloon is still not that impactful under screens and definitely not mandatory.
I don't get the mon. There will just be too many games against 3 fighting resists and you are not clicking Close Combat once. I do get it forces switches and gets to click U-Turn, but are we really valueing that? Mankey cannot ever switch on the stuff it forces out, which makes me question the point of going through it to bring other threats. I also have issue getting locked on Close Combat ever when Gastly getting free turns is as scary as it is, making it tough to just click the move before information ruled out Gastly (and not much rules out Gastly).
Taillow hater, deals absolutely ZERO if you send it after a kill and before Orb activates, only comes on embarassing stuff like Gligar clicking EQ, Wisps (from mons you cannot even Facade) and Bronzor stuff (which is self explainatory as to why it's not relevant). Explodes at the first Priority, and melts from Burn + Rocks + Hail.
The effort it takes to use a mon that folds in end games against normal resists above 50%, any scarf, priority, or just healthy last mon like Gligar is unreal.
Last I feel like sharing some unusual stuff I have been enjoying. This is very unrelated to VR stuff, as most of it should not be seriously considered, but using this post to share a little mischief I wouldn't have any place to talk about otherwise.
This Ponyta feels pretty great by how it handles most leads. Staryu is the mon you want to avoid the most, but it gets stuff done in almost every other match-up. Wisps on Machop and Gligar, Return + Overheat go through a few mons with Oran (Koffing is an example), Protect is great against Aipom and the likes. Ponyta also tends to bring in some scarfers on some occasions, making Protect a nice addition.
Poliwag @ Oran Berry
Ability: Water Absorb
Level: 5
EVs: 196 Atk / 116 Def / 196 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Encore
- Belly Drum
- Return
- Waterfall
It has a billion issues that are impossible to disregard, but Belly Drum with 19 Speed, close to nothing being able to live at +6, and access to Encore + Water Absorb actually give this some slight potential? Most Scarfs OHKO it, or deal at least above 80% and it has some issues with priorities (notably Stunky as you also take Aftermath, unless you want to go crazy and Encore on Sucker), but resisting Ice Shard is great.
Natu @ Oran Berry
Ability: Synchronize
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 76 Def / 200 SpA / 196 Spe
Timid Nature
- Psychic
- Heat Wave
- U-turn
- Hidden Power [Ground]
Annoys non Stone Edge/Night Slash Gligar, Psychic-type that can escape Stunky and the likes thanks to U-Turn, even works decently as a lead given some Gligars forgo the 2 moves aforementionned, and it has a good match-up against Machop and Koffing, while able to U-Turn out of some other ones. The flaw that comes to mind when using it is that it excels at nothing and ends up not achieving much in some games, but no glaring issues.
Munchlax
Gligar
Gastly
Snover
Chinchou
Croagunk
Bronzor
Duskull
Houndour
Staryu
Machop
Mantyke
Stunky
Koffing
Diglett
Elekid
Kabuto
Aipom
Ponyta
Zigzagoon
Aron
Cranidos
Voltorb
Wailmer
Abra
Doduo
Drifloon
Mankey
Porygon
Tailow
Wynaut
Dratini
Buizel
Pineco
Carvanha
Magnemite
Bagon
Glameow
Growlithe
Magby
Teddiursa
Tentacool
Phanpy
Chimchar
Krabby
Unranked > B+ . Gligar is the second best Mon in the Tier and has Sand Veil, an ability so good that it has been banned in many Tiers and won,t be surprised (but will strongly oppose) if it happens here too. If the opponent doesn,t bring Snover or Rain, Sand is a very strong playstyle and can succeed even vs those weathers. 2 of my wins were with Sand while facing a Snover.
Unranked > B-. Strong secondary Sand Veil Mon. Has SD + Sucker Punch, can be defesive with Spikes + HP Ice, since it walls some Gligar variants. Faster than Munchlax and Bronzor, so can fish a miss with Sub. Focus Punch is another option to discourage Snover coming it. Being a Grass type, Cacnea can do something vs Rain, especially since Chinchous don,t even run Ice Beam often.
Unranked > B. Main nomination. Numerous memes have been made about Steel-Rock being a terrible defensive combination and mostly there are right...in other Tiers. Shieldon happens to wall half of the Tier.
