Lower Tiers DPP LC Viability Ranking

[tazz]

Thanks to femboy for the art​

Welcome to the DPP LC viability ranking project. In this project, we will "tier" every Pokemon based on usefulness. The old thread had not been updated in many years and the metagame it reflects has changed significantly, so we are starting anew!

VR Council

tazz
Melon
Imanalt
Fantos13

S Rank

Munchlax
Gligar

A+ Rank

Gastly
Chinchou
Snover
Bronzor

A Rank

Wailmer
Duskull
Machop
Stunky

A- Rank

Cranidos
Mantyke
Aipom
Croagunk
Staryu
Voltorb
Kabuto

B+Rank

Koffing
Houndour
Diglett
Elekid
Wynaut
Porygon
Dratini
Ponyta

B Rank

Zigzagoon
Aron
Drifloon
Mankey
Omanyte
Buizel
Doduo
Abra

B- Rank

Bagon
Magnemite
Horsea
Tailow

Thanks to all who contributed to this project, and anyone interested in submitting their own list can contact me. There are hopefully more old gens LC resources to come!

 

[tazz]

Post LCWC Shifts:
B --> A
A- --> A

Be sure to check out the DPP LC replays in the LCWC Thread!

 

[Mister Magnus]

Nominating Digglet to raise to A its capacity to trap munchlax makes it pretty much a factor in every single game, it has enough u comtility, dig alone liberates like every single elite special attacker and Sweeper in this tier which makes it on pair with the Pursuiter as viable trappers in this tier, it is also extremally spammable, way more than other mons in the A- tier

 

[tazz]

Squeezing in some rank changes before DPP cup

B- --> B+
A-
B
B+ --> B-
B --> A-


- Rain is better than ever and Buizel is a strong enough feature on the standard version.
- Crani was a major oversight on the first ranking (oops), scarf head smash tears apart plenty of teams. It tends to lose to sash leads and has some bad mus, which is why it isn't as high as the very splashable mons above it.
- Growlithe has been seeing use as a good anti-lead against people spamming balance.
- Krabby has been suffering as more and more people prep for rain.
- Voltorb is crucial to rain and screens and is pretty decent even outside of cheese

Diglett was not voted to A this time, and even though I did vote to raise it I was definitely unsure about it. Diglett would be the least splashable Pokemon in A rank; You can depend on every other Pokemon in that rank to do some work in every matchup, but Diglett has several matchups that it struggles greatly in (snover lead teams, for instance). You could argue it makes up for this with how well it does in some matchups, but the rest of the council thinks that A rank and above should probably be reserved for staples of the metagame.

 

[Eeveeto]

With LCWC over for Spain, I want to do 4 nominations:

B- > B+ Spin is good, Tspikes are good (only 2 other grounded Mons are ranked and I think Croagunk is very overrated), being a Grass that doesn,t get OHKOd by Snover's Wood Hammer while still being resistant to Ice is very good. This Mon is great and fits in almost every structure. The 3 battles I used a Tentacool in I won, losing the 2 I didn,t bring it.
Unranked > B+ . Gligar is the second best Mon in the Tier and has Sand Veil, an ability so good that it has been banned in many Tiers and won,t be surprised (but will strongly oppose) if it happens here too. If the opponent doesn,t bring Snover or Rain, Sand is a very strong playstyle and can succeed even vs those weathers. 2 of my wins were with Sand while facing a Snover.
Unranked > B-. Strong secondary Sand Veil Mon. Has SD + Sucker Punch, can be defesive with Spikes + HP Ice, since it walls some Gligar variants. Faster than Munchlax and Bronzor, so can fish a miss with Sub. Focus Punch is another option to discourage Snover coming it. Being a Grass type, Cacnea can do something vs Rain, especially since Chinchous don,t even run Ice Beam often.

Unranked > B. Main nomination. Numerous memes have been made about Steel-Rock being a terrible defensive combination and mostly there are right...in other Tiers. Shieldon happens to wall half of the Tier.


(Shieldon) (M) @ Shed Shell / Oran Berry
Ability: Sturdy
Level: 5
EVs: 196 HP / 20 Atk / 212 Def / 20 SpA / 52 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Rock Blast / Rock Slide
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Ice Beam

Other moves that can be explored (in the Rock Blast slot, Ice Beam is too important for not letting Gligar switch-in): Thunderbolt, Earthquake, Flash Cannon, Iron Head, Roar, Hidden Power Fire.
Note about Rock Blast: In DPP, when called by Sleep Talk, it will always hit 1 time, therefore Rock Slide is an option (don,t use SE on a defensive Mon). However, Rock Blast is still very viable when awake due to multihit Moves being very strong in LC.

Defensive Mons tend to not be as good in LC as in higher Tiers, however if they totally wall several big threats, that changes. Shieldon can be used outside of Sand, but he is mainly a Sand and hazard abusser. Shieldon walls many Mons, so he forces switches. Any chip damage (hazards, Sand and Shieldon's hits) accumulates through the match, wearing down foes. The longer the match goes, the more damage Shieldon will be able to do.
Ice Beam is a must in this set. Since we are using Shieldon with Sand, opposing Sand Veil Gligar will already be stronger than usually, don,t let him switch-in for free if possible.
Shed Shell is the better item, since Shieldon is very vulnerable to all trappers that exist.

Match-up of Shieldon (in Sand) vs the (current) Viability Rankings (Green=100% win. Yellow=Most likely win. Orange=Can go either way. Red=Most likely lose. Black=Unwinnable).

S
Shieldon loses if Munchlax has Brick Break, Superpower or Earthquake. Shieldon fully walls otherwise. Shieldon can wear it down if Munchlax switches into it.
Shieldon loses. However, Gligar can,t safely switch-in due to the threat of Ice Beam.
A+
Currently, on-site set doesn,t have HP Fight, so Shieldon fully walls the most common set. Shieldon loses to HP Fight, but isn,t OHKOd from full in Sand, even if Gastly is LO.
Shieldon has decent odds of winning 1vs1 vs S, but can,t switch-in. Neither can Snover into it. Vs Scarf, Shieldon switches into Blizzard but can be caught by HP Ground.
Shieldon loses and can be OHKOd by Hydro in Sand (which can be avoided with another nature). Shieldon can wear Chinchou down on the switch with Rock Blast, each hit does 25%.
Shieldon hard loses.
Worst Shieldon match-up of the Tier. Bronzong not only competes with Shieldon for the role of bulky Steel, it also fully walls it while being immune to Sand and Hazards. It often runs EQ and sometimes even Recycle. If I nominated Shieldon only to B and not higher is due to Bronzor existing.
Shieldon fully walls Duskull. If Duskull uses Thief... then it won,t heal, since it will steal a Shed Shell and won,t be able to steal items from another Mon.
A
Shieldon will generally win the 1 vs 1. Can also switch-in due to having only 9,8% of being 2HKOd by Fire Blast.
Bad match-up, Shieldon can only wear Staryu down on the switch with Rock Blast.
Terrible match-up due to being Fight Mon.
Shieldon fully walls Stunky.
Koffing has 1,1% chance to 3HKO Shieldon with Fire Blast in Sand.
A-
Shieldon loses, but will surprise Diglett by having Shed Shell and escaping. Diglett can,t switch into Ice Beam if Rocks are up.
This is one of the only Waters Shieldon can actually stay in vs as long as Sand is up. It will be esentially a trade.
Shieldon is OHKOd by CC, obviously. However, most Mankey are choiced, so Shieldon can switch into every other move.
Has Low Kick :( At least can,t switch-in without taking a lot of damage and weak to Hippopotas.
Shieldon fully walls Taillow.
Worst Rain Mon to fight against with Sand.
On-site set doesn,t have Brick Break, so Shieldon most of the times will fully wall Aipom. The Monkey doesn,t really have reason to run Brick Break, except when expecting Screens.
Shieldon is 2HKOd by Flare Blitz, so can,t switch-in. Neither can Ponyta and Shieldon will probably win 1vs1.
Shieldon will take +6 Seed Bomb and combined with Sand, 3 Rock Blast have a good chance to OHKO.
Has EQ, resists every move and immune to Sand, therefore terrible match-up.
OHKOd by EQ. Most of the time this Mon is Scarf, so not the worst match-up.
A problem after it puts Rain. However, we have Hippo to reset the weather, so it ends up being a mind game. Shieldon does decent damage with Rock Blast.
B+
OHKOs with LO HP Ground or Fight, but doesn,t always run the moves. More dangerous than Gastly.
+1 HP Fight OHKOs (most of the time), +0 doesn,t. Doesn,t always run the move.
Shieldon fully walls Porygon, but fears the Trick and the rare HP Fight/Ground.
:wailmer: Water Mon. Can switch into Boom or non Water Moves.
Well, we have Shed Shell for something. If Shieldon has Oran Berry, he has a better match-up than most Mons vs Wynaut, due to Rock Blast being a multi-hit move able to miss. Sand will wear down Wynaut and it might end up winning or at least trading.
Hilariously, +1 LO Waterfall doesn,t OHKO, so its a trade at worst (without flinches) in practice, Dratini will die to recoil, hazards and sand after Ice Beam.
Water Mon.
B
On-site set doesn,t have EQ, so its fully walled. Only problem is Pineco being able to spin and put hazards before being killed.
LO Adamant Waterfall only OHKOs 75% of the time and the Mon doesn,t even always run it or the item. One of the few Water Mons Shieldon can 1vs1 with decent odds.
Use Shed Shell to run away from this.
One of the on-site sets has HP Fight as option for some reason, but in Sand it doesn,t OHKO.
Walls Brick or Hydroless versions.
Fully walled.
Has a 9,8% to 2HKO with Flare Blitz, so this is a win most of the time.
B-
Has Fight Moves, so bad match-up. Can,t switch-in at least.
Will die quickly to sand and its own status, but will OHKO Shieldon with the right prediction.
Water Mon.
Water Mon.
Why is this Mon ranked instead of Sandshrew, who outside of Ice Shard has better everything? Its ground, so it wins but is very damaged by Ice Beam.
Hidden Power Ground doesn,t OHKO in Sand and it rarely runs the move in first place.
100% sure win, but by the time Shieldon appears, it will likely already be dead.
Fuck Water Mons.

All in all, I think Shieldon has enough merits to be ranked due to walling most normal Mons that are not Munchlax (and even some sets of it), most poison Mons and Duskull, which is also a important Mon to wall.

Edit: LCWC Replays with Shieldon:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4lc-2028004995 < Doesn,t do anything here due to getting critted by Cranidos's Head Smash. However, it shows the bulk, since it resisted said crit.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4lc-2039603548 < The actual Shieldon highlight match. Fully walls Stunky and Gastly, wears down Munchlax several times on the switch, surprises Diglett by escaping from it with Shed Shell and wins the final duel vs Snover.

 

[tazz]

We voted on some changes, and will probably vote on more controversial ones after LCWC.

Raises:
A- --> A
B+ --> A-
B --> B+

Water spam is simply one of (if not the) most consistent archetypes. I think that mantyke's dominance and splashability both on rain and on balance is comparable to other A rank mons (certainly houndour), and is clearly a step above the rest of A-. Wailmer was also a pretty easy raise, people have been experimenting with all sorts of sets to make it a nightmare to deal with in the lead slot, and it can often be an insta-win if it is kept in the back.

Scarf doduo is just way more solid than the rest of B, and should be ranked very similarly to mons like Tailow. Speaking of...

Drops:
A- --> B+
A- --> B+
--> UR
--> UR

Mankey is terrible and I'm tired of pretending it's not. Most teams have at least 2 fight resists, and 3-4 is not at all uncommon. With so many teams completely shutting down its main STAB move without even trying, it ends up being worse than just about every other scarfer. I'll discuss it more with the other rankers later, but I really think it could go even lower than this.

Tailow is very solid, but it's way more niche than the other members of A-. It has especially suffered from people running scarfers much more recently.

Slowpoke and Eevee are just not good. They are usable, but that is a very low bar in DPP. Because everything drops so easily in the tier, it is possible to make just about any Pokemon work. They might have some decent matchups, but both are a bad choice on any team trying to optimize its matchups.

We didn't vote on Eeveeto's nominations, but I'd argue they generally fall along the same lines as Slowpoke and Eevee. Sand has decent matchups here and there, but I don't think it should be included high on the VR when it has near unplayable matchups against rain and waterspam, without the massive upsides that other fishes have. Shieldon just seems like a defensive Aron in a meta where offense is key; if someone knows the set I can't see it being a serious threat in most matchups.

Hippopotas would probably be the exception, we'll vote on it later for B-. I can also see Tentacool in B.

 

[rineko]

to a
last update acknowledged the rise of wailmer but i think its only become better since then. ive seen oran berry and even specs in the lead slot and those are cool, though the scarf set is definitely the most consistent and versatile as it can be a strong lead, revenge killer / midgame wallbreaker, or lategame cleaner. a wailmer at full hp is one of the most difficult things to handle in this metagame, and if u have rocks up then mons like chinchou, munchlax, and snover are gonna have trouble switching in, esp if ur running modest. this mons damage output is so crazy it can often the opp in a situation where they have to sack something just to get a mon in safely that can check it, with the mons it invites in (chinchou, snover, munchlax) often not too difficult to quickly handle by one of its mates.
of course there is counterplay to it, like priority moves, as well as methods to limit its damage output like passive damage from rocks or hail or chip with munchlax pursuit, but its versatility lets it provide value even in more difficult matchups. wailmer can even opt for coverage like eq or hp fire to bop chinchou, snover, and croagunk which these mons must watch out for, though its often hard not to just click the funny water button, and i didnt even mention how wailmer benefits from and against rain or how it has boom. i was kinda surprised to see that its only a- when id say its way more consistent than all the mons there currently, though i also imagine its been brought up since that post with its rise and the general rise of water types in the meta.

 

[Nineveh]

Hi! As some may already know, Fantos hosted a DPP LC Invitational tournament that ended recently. Given this was over 150 games played, by a majority of player with extended experience in the tier, I thought it would be nice to share usage stats. Second part of this post will be me dwelving about personal thoughts on the tier.

DPP LC

+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Munchlax           |  177 |  81.19% |  47.46% |
| 2    | Gligar             |  149 |  68.35% |  51.01% |
| 3    | Gastly             |  107 |  49.08% |  51.40% |
| 4    | Snover             |   77 |  35.32% |  51.95% |
| 5    | Chinchou           |   70 |  32.11% |  44.29% |
| 6    | Bronzor            |   64 |  29.36% |  48.44% |
| 7    | Duskull            |   56 |  25.69% |  56.25% |
| 8    | Stunky             |   52 |  23.85% |  58.65% |
| 9    | Machop             |   36 |  16.51% |  44.44% |
| 10   | Croagunk           |   34 |  15.60% |  47.06% |
| 11   | Houndour           |   33 |  15.14% |  48.48% |
| 12   | Staryu             |   31 |  14.22% |  48.39% |
| 13   | Koffing            |   30 |  13.76% |  46.67% |
| 14   | Diglett            |   29 |  13.30% |  36.21% |
| 15   | Mantyke            |   28 |  12.84% |  32.14% |
| 16   | Voltorb            |   19 |   8.72% |  36.84% |
| 17   | Wynaut             |   18 |   8.26% |  55.56% |
| 17   | Cranidos           |   18 |   8.26% |  36.11% |
| 19   | Aipom              |   13 |   5.96% |  30.77% |
| 20   | Porygon            |   11 |   5.05% |  63.64% |
| 20   | Ponyta             |   11 |   5.05% |  63.64% |
| 20   | Mankey             |   11 |   5.05% |  45.45% |
| 20   | Buizel             |   11 |   5.05% |  27.27% |
| 24   | Elekid             |   10 |   4.59% |  60.00% |
| 24   | Kabuto             |   10 |   4.59% |  40.00% |
| 26   | Wailmer            |    9 |   4.13% |  33.33% |
| 27   | Drifloon           |    8 |   3.67% |  50.00% |
| 27   | Dratini            |    8 |   3.67% |  50.00% |
| 27   | Omanyte            |    8 |   3.67% |  50.00% |
| 27   | Taillow            |    8 |   3.67% |  25.00% |
| 31   | Zigzagoon          |    7 |   3.21% |  42.86% |
| 32   | Magnemite          |    6 |   2.75% |  83.33% |
| 32   | Krabby             |    6 |   2.75% |  66.67% |
| 32   | Doduo              |    6 |   2.75% |  33.33% |
| 32   | Tentacool          |    6 |   2.75% |  25.00% |
| 36   | Aron               |    4 |   1.83% |  50.00% |
| 37   | Abra               |    3 |   1.38% | 100.00% |
| 37   | Shellder           |    3 |   1.38% | 100.00% |
| 37   | Slowpoke           |    3 |   1.38% | 100.00% |
| 37   | Hippopotas         |    3 |   1.38% | 100.00% |
| 37   | Bagon              |    3 |   1.38% |  66.67% |
| 37   | Growlithe          |    3 |   1.38% |  33.33% |
| 37   | Lickitung          |    3 |   1.38% |  33.33% |
| 37   | Smoochum           |    3 |   1.38% |  16.67% |
| 45   | Pineco             |    2 |   0.92% | 100.00% |
| 45   | Phanpy             |    2 |   0.92% |  50.00% |
| 45   | Chimchar           |    2 |   0.92% |  50.00% |
| 45   | Spheal             |    2 |   0.92% |  50.00% |
| 45   | Meowth             |    2 |   0.92% |   0.00% |
| 45   | Surskit            |    2 |   0.92% |   0.00% |
| 45   | Glameow            |    2 |   0.92% |   0.00% |
| 52   | Eevee              |    1 |   0.46% | 100.00% |
| 52   | Shinx              |    1 |   0.46% | 100.00% |
| 52   | Shieldon           |    1 |   0.46% | 100.00% |
| 52   | Cacnea             |    1 |   0.46% | 100.00% |
| 52   | Spinarak           |    1 |   0.46% |   0.00% |
| 52   | Cyndaquil          |    1 |   0.46% |   0.00% |
| 52   | Charmander         |    1 |   0.46% |   0.00% |
| 52   | Teddiursa          |    1 |   0.46% |   0.00% |
| 52   | Snubbull           |    1 |   0.46% |   0.00% |
| 52   | Mime Jr.           |    1 |   0.46% |   0.00% |
| 52   | Finneon            |    1 |   0.46% |   0.00% |
| 52   | Gulpin             |    1 |   0.46% |   0.00% |
| 52   | Skorupi            |    1 |   0.46% |   0.00% |
| 52   | Trapinch           |    1 |   0.46% |   0.00% |
| 52   | Gible              |    1 |   0.46% |   0.00% |
| 52   | Budew              |    1 |   0.46% |   0.00% |
| 52   | Seel               |    1 |   0.46% |   0.00% |
| 52   | Cleffa             |    1 |   0.46% |   0.00% |

Missing Pokemons

• Missing 2 Pokemon from COCONU T.
• Missing 1 Pokemon from AVARICE.
• Missing 1 Pokemon from MENDEEZ.
• Missing 2 Pokemon from NINEVEH.
• Missing 2 Pokemon from ISS.
• Missing 1 Pokemon from ISS.
• Missing 1 Pokemon from HSOWA.
• Missing 1 Pokemon from NAILS.
• Missing 1 Pokemon from ALKIONE.
• Missing 1 Pokemon from EEVEETOTHEN00B.
• Missing 1 Pokemon from LILYAC.
• Missing 1 Pokemon from STARMASTER.
• Missing 1 Pokemon from KJDAAS.
• Missing 1 Pokemon from MELON.
• Missing 1 Pokemon from ISS.
• Missing 4 Pokemon from TAZZ.
• Missing 3 Pokemon from ALKIONE.
• Missing 1 Pokemon from KIPKLUIF.
• Missing 1 Pokemon from HANPYOL.
• Missing 2 Pokemon from KJDAAS.
• Missing 1 Pokemon from OJR.
• Missing 1 Pokemon from GOREX.
• Missing 3 Pokemon from GOREX.
• Missing 1 Pokemon from LONDON13.
• Missing 1 Pokemon from HSOWA.
• Missing 1 Pokemon from LAROXYL.
• Missing 2 Pokemon from KIPKLUIF.
• Missing 1 Pokemon from MELON.
• Missing 1 Pokemon from TLTK.
• Missing 1 Pokemon from MELON.
• Missing 1 Pokemon from TAZZ.
• Missing 1 Pokemon from ISS.
• Missing 1 Pokemon from STARMASTER.
• Missing 3 Pokemon from LILYAC.
• Missing 1 Pokemon from STARMASTER.
• Missing 2 Pokemon from GOREX.
• Missing 2 Pokemon from HSOWA.
• Missing 1 Pokemon from NINEVEH.
• Missing 2 Pokemon from TAZZ.
• Missing 3 Pokemon from NAILS.
• Missing 1 Pokemon from NAILS.
• Missing 1 Pokemon from ISS.
• Missing 1 Pokemon from NINEVEH.
• Missing 2 Pokemon from ISS.
• Missing 1 Pokemon from NAILS.
• Missing 1 Pokemon from HSOWA.
• Missing 1 Pokemon from STARMASTER.
• Missing 2 Pokemon from LILYAC.
• Missing 2 Pokemon from HSOWA.

Leads

DPP LC

+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Leads                   | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Gligar                  |   30 |  13.76% |  58.33% |
| 2    | Machop                  |   28 |  12.84% |  42.86% |
| 3    | Staryu                  |   18 |   8.26% |  55.56% |
| 4    | Koffing                 |   17 |   7.80% |  41.18% |
| 5    | Voltorb                 |   16 |   7.34% |  37.50% |
| 6    | Snover                  |   14 |   6.42% |  39.29% |
| 7    | Gastly                  |   11 |   5.05% |  72.73% |
| 7    | Aipom                   |   11 |   5.05% |  36.36% |
| 9    | Bronzor                 |   10 |   4.59% |  50.00% |
| 10   | Ponyta                  |    6 |   2.75% |  83.33% |
| 10   | Elekid                  |    6 |   2.75% |  50.00% |
| 12   | Mankey                  |    5 |   2.29% |  80.00% |
| 12   | Porygon                 |    5 |   2.29% |  60.00% |
| 14   | Wailmer                 |    4 |   1.83% |  50.00% |
| 14   | Tentacool               |    4 |   1.83% |  25.00% |
| 16   | Abra                    |    3 |   1.38% | 100.00% |
| 16   | Shellder                |    3 |   1.38% | 100.00% |
| 16   | Omanyte                 |    3 |   1.38% |  66.67% |
| 16   | Growlithe               |    3 |   1.38% |  33.33% |
| 20   | Phanpy                  |    2 |   0.92% |  50.00% |
| 20   | Chimchar                |    2 |   0.92% |  50.00% |
| 20   | Cranidos                |    2 |   0.92% |  50.00% |
| 20   | Smoochum                |    2 |   0.92% |   0.00% |
| 20   | Glameow                 |    2 |   0.92% |   0.00% |
| 20   | Doduo                   |    2 |   0.92% |   0.00% |
| 26   | Lickitung               |    1 |   0.46% | 100.00% |
| 26   | Magnemite               |    1 |   0.46% | 100.00% |
| 26   | Krabby                  |    1 |   0.46% | 100.00% |
| 26   | Pineco                  |    1 |   0.46% | 100.00% |
| 26   | Spinarak                |    1 |   0.46% |   0.00% |
| 26   | Croagunk                |    1 |   0.46% |   0.00% |
| 26   | Finneon                 |    1 |   0.46% |   0.00% |
| 26   | Chinchou                |    1 |   0.46% |   0.00% |
| 26   | Diglett                 |    1 |   0.46% |   0.00% |

Moves and Teammates
Combos



Nothing negative about this man it is broken. I am just a little unsure of what is best on it, and I don't see that discussed so much? I think it's only good at clicking Blizzard and Wood Hammer, and maybe Ice Shard, does that mean you use Wood Hammer on Scarf over Energy Ball? If so how do you spread it? Should Mixed Berry sets forgo some SpA or Speed? And what should they even run as last move?
Would think the mon is even better if I fully understood all its whereabouts.


Lowest usage pokemon currently in A+, and by a rather large margin. I think it's fairly understandable, it is the greatest thing when you run into Wailmer and rain, but unless you run into a Wailmer/Chinchou/Mantyke core, neither Mantyke or Snover would have been underwhelming, while also being stronger mons in general. by their offensive presence.


Houndour is awkward. It's definitely a good mon, but Stunky does the trapping just better. It has other perks though! It is scary to switch on in general, does not rely on Lum to absorb Wisp, and being a Fire-type is just great (more on that after).
But if, when building, my main concern is trapping Ghosts, then Stunky almost always come out on top.


The ease this thing has to get two kills in games without a Bronzor is crazy. Almost makes me reconsider using ghosts at times, as this thing existing means you need back-up plans in case they just get trapped. Highest A ranked mon usage by a significant margin, for good reasons.


I have never put too much thoughts on this mons potential, non-lead ones are dangerous when given a turn I guess. However, I think Sash Voltorb outclasses it severly in the lead slot.


I have seen people claiming this should go lower, and, while it may show a little less consistency than rest of A-, I think this ranking is still accurate. Echoing what I was saying above about Houndour, I think being a Fire-type has many perks :
- Snover is broken and the only real means to exploit it are Fire Types and the passive Bronzor
- Punishes Bronzor particularly hard
- They are hard to switch on because of the Wisp threat, and even if Waters are amazing and all teams will carry one to sometimes three or more, it is a notable feat to force them in
- Wisp immunity is good
Even in poor Ponyta games, it will still likely get a few moves off on ground of having 19 Speed and by the virtue of being relatively physically bulky by having a fast Will-o-Wisp.


Forces the water/Snover/Croagunk to be revealed as soon as it gets on field, and still dent the first two for acceptable damage, good in early turns yet can clean some games, can boom and delete a water check to enable your other waters. One of the most impactful mon in A- in my opinion.
The amount of teams that outright lose to Scarf Lead is crazy too.


Rain is the scariest thing in builder and generally mandates multiple checks. Thing is said checks are #4 #5 and another top 10 mon, not hard to fit into teams at all. Rain is restrictive in builder, but not so strong in the actual game.
I find it actually a little frustrating that some "mid" mons get even more mid because they take a slot in a tier where they tend to be a little pricey. Munchlax and Gligar are both obviously hard mons to pass up on, and then you will dedicate a slot, if not two, not to lose to rain.
It is frequent to see unconventional mons do well in a game, which is part of the DPP LC charm, but those teams often tend to get mu-checked by rain because said mon is not named Snover/Chinchou.
The other thing I really despise about rain is Kabuto and Buizel sometimes getting work done through Waterfall flinches.


Only relevant use I've seen of Drifloon as of recently is in Screens. And not only I think the structure is slightly overrated, Drifloon is still not that impactful under screens and definitely not mandatory.


I don't get the mon. There will just be too many games against 3 fighting resists and you are not clicking Close Combat once. I do get it forces switches and gets to click U-Turn, but are we really valueing that? Mankey cannot ever switch on the stuff it forces out, which makes me question the point of going through it to bring other threats. I also have issue getting locked on Close Combat ever when Gastly getting free turns is as scary as it is, making it tough to just click the move before information ruled out Gastly (and not much rules out Gastly).


Taillow hater, deals absolutely ZERO if you send it after a kill and before Orb activates, only comes on embarassing stuff like Gligar clicking EQ, Wisps (from mons you cannot even Facade) and Bronzor stuff (which is self explainatory as to why it's not relevant). Explodes at the first Priority, and melts from Burn + Rocks + Hail.
The effort it takes to use a mon that folds in end games against normal resists above 50%, any scarf, priority, or just healthy last mon like Gligar is unreal.




Last I feel like sharing some unusual stuff I have been enjoying. This is very unrelated to VR stuff, as most of it should not be seriously considered, but using this post to share a little mischief I wouldn't have any place to talk about otherwise.

Ponyta @ Focus Sash
Ability: Flash Fire
Level: 5
EVs: 236 Atk / 76 SpA / 196 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Return
- Protect
- Will-O-Wisp
- Overheat

This Ponyta feels pretty great by how it handles most leads. Staryu is the mon you want to avoid the most, but it gets stuff done in almost every other match-up. Wisps on Machop and Gligar, Return + Overheat go through a few mons with Oran (Koffing is an example), Protect is great against Aipom and the likes. Ponyta also tends to bring in some scarfers on some occasions, making Protect a nice addition.

Poliwag @ Oran Berry
Ability: Water Absorb
Level: 5
EVs: 196 Atk / 116 Def / 196 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Encore
- Belly Drum
- Return
- Waterfall

It has a billion issues that are impossible to disregard, but Belly Drum with 19 Speed, close to nothing being able to live at +6, and access to Encore + Water Absorb actually give this some slight potential? Most Scarfs OHKO it, or deal at least above 80% and it has some issues with priorities (notably Stunky as you also take Aftermath, unless you want to go crazy and Encore on Sucker), but resisting Ice Shard is great.

Natu @ Oran Berry
Ability: Synchronize
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 76 Def / 200 SpA / 196 Spe
Timid Nature
- Psychic
- Heat Wave
- U-turn
- Hidden Power [Ground]

Annoys non Stone Edge/Night Slash Gligar, Psychic-type that can escape Stunky and the likes thanks to U-Turn, even works decently as a lead given some Gligars forgo the 2 moves aforementionned, and it has a good match-up against Machop and Koffing, while able to U-Turn out of some other ones. The flaw that comes to mind when using it is that it excels at nothing and ends up not achieving much in some games, but no glaring issues.

 

[StadiumGambler]

Apologies if this is totally the wrong thread for this, but I'm curious as to what sets would be a thing for pokemon that are banned in this tier for a LC Ubers or LC Anything Goes type of setup. I've come back to competitive pokemon after a long layoff and heard there might be AI bot users that you can throw into Pokemon Showdown with teams and then fight them, so I'm thinking about very loosely recreating Pokemon Stadium type fights in Gen 4 where I would give AI Showdown trainer a bunch of thematic teams then fight them all with a team of my own and see how it goes.

However, there aren't sets listed for the banned mons in LC so I figure I'd throw some stuff at the wall and see what sticks, but if any of you know a certain broken move combo on a banned poke that is the reason why its banned, let me know (although I'm guessing most pokemon were just banned due to quantity of stats)

-----------------------

Meditite

Meditite

Item: Choice Scarf / Life Orb? / Choice Band?
Ability: Pure Power
EVs/Nature: Atk and Spd focused with Adamant nature

-Hi Jump Kick
-Psycho Cut / Zen Headbutt?
-Fire / Ice / Thunderpunch / Rock Slide?
-Fire / Ice / Thunderpunch / Rock Slide?

Kinda feel like this is one of the weaker LC Ubers, because it has the same problem as Medicham that I know all too well from playing Gen 4 OU and UU: you need to find a safe spot for it to come in, and it can't invest in defense because it needs offense, and since it wants to generally run a choice item if you guess wrong you're gonna have to switch or be clobbered. Granted, I don't have access to a damage calc, so maybe even something like neutral hit Psycho Cut OHKOes some upper-tier LC threats for all I know. I wrote Rock Slide on as a shout against Scyther and Yanma in case later calcs find out that elepunches don't OHKO either of them.

(EDIT: Found a damage calc by accident. Scyther with one point of defensive investment is 50/50 to survive an elepunch from Meditite, unless it carries Life Orb or Choice Band in which case its a guaranteed OHKO. With no defense investment, its 93%ish to OHKO. Yanma is OHKOed by an elepunch without Choice Band, Life Orb, or even Adamant nature.)

Misdreavus

Misdreavus

All-Out Special Attacker

Item: Choice Specs / Scarf / Life Orb / Oran Berry
Ability: Levitate
EVs/Nature: SpAtk and Spd, dunno about speed tiers and if Timid would matter over Modest in the grand scheme of things.

-Shadow Ball
-Thunderbolt
-Psychic / Power Gem / HP Fighting
-Psychic / Power Gem / HP Fighting

Again no damage calc so if Thunderbolt misses a KO on Scyther or Yanma, Power Gem might be worth a try. HP Fighting for Sneasel may also warrant consideration, also Ghost and Fighting are one of those type comboes that hit neutral on everything.

(EDIT: woohoo found a damage calc. Thunderbolt does not OHKO Scyther unless MissyD has Specs or Life Orb, Power Gem kills unless Scyther has the Rock resist berry for some hax, likewise HP Fighting destroys Sneasel unless it also has the berry, although Sneasel needs some pretty significant investment to survive.)

---

All-Rounder

Item: Oran Berry / Trick item?
Ability: Levitate
EVs/Nature: Probably some Def to balance out the two defenses and whatever Spd/SpAtk is necessary. Timid/Modest/Bold nature

-Shadow Ball
-Thunderbolt
-Willowisp
-Thunder Wave / Substitute / Trick / Taunt / Pain Split?

Pretty much what Mismagius uses sometimes and would be okish here. No idea if Pain Split is a thing you can try in LC without it going wonky because of the low HP, I've never used the move tbh.

---

Boosting Sweeper

Item: Oran Berry / Focus Sash?
Ability: Levitate
EVs/Nature: HP and Spd focused?, Timid nature?

-Shadow Ball
-Thunderbolt
-Psychic / Power Gem / HP Fighting / Substitute
-Nasty Plot / Calm Mind?

Finding a free turn on this switching into something like Choice Scarf Munchlax Return would be hilarious.

---

Perish Trapper

Item: Oran Berry / Focus Sash?
Ability: Levitate
EVs/Nature: HP/Def and Spd focused, Bold/Timid nature

-Perish Song
-Mean Look
-Protect
-Substitute / Confuse Ray

Had to be mentioned, although anyone whos played GSC probably won't fall for it, and MissyD may not be defensively sturdy or quick enough even in this environment to survive long enough to finish its song.

Murkrow

Murkrow

Item: Life Orb / Oran Berry
Ability: Insomnia
EVs/Nature: Atk and Spd and rest in SpAtk I guess, Naive/Hasty nature?

-Drill Peck / Brave Bird
-Sucker Punch
-Heat Wave
-Pursuit / HP Fighting?

Not sure if Brave Bird is worth the extra power cause recoil probably gets pretty awful in LC even with an Oran Berry. Would've been nice if this thing got Air Slash or a physical attack equivalent to Heat Wave so it could focus on one attack stat instead of being a mixed sweeper but oh well. HP Fighting is there in case Heat Wave isn't a guaranteed OHKO on Sneasel (EDIT: It pretty much is with Life Orb, but falls short with Oran Berry). Also I guess you can make some weird support set since its got Confuse Ray, Thief, TWave, and Taunt to throw on somewhere but Murkrow's pretty frail and has a bad defensive typing.

Scyther

Scyther

Boosting Sweeper

Item: Life Orb / Oran Berry
Ability: Technician
EVs/Nature: Atk and Spd, Adamant/Jolly nature

-Swords Dance
-Bug Bite
-Aerial Ace
-Brick Break / Roost? / U-Turn??

Simple set, and I imagine due to quantity of stats this thing is absolutely a monster, but I guess it is worth noting that in an anything goes environment, it gets hit very hard by its fellow Uber brethren, it has a myriad of weaknesses to common types, and it eats half its health going into Stealth Rock, so it needs support and can't just be thrown out there and expected to dominate like Mewtwo in RBY.

---

Baton Passer

Item: Oran Berry
Ability: Technician
EVs/Nature: Spd, maybe certain defenses depending on need, otherwise Atk, probably Jolly nature?

-Swords Dance
-Agility
-Baton Pass
-Bug Bite

I don't know if phazers are common in LC or if this would expedite a Baton Pass ban or what, but its there.

---

SubRevver

Item: Focus Sash / Salac Berry / Liechi Berry? / Focus Band??
Ability: Technician
EVs/Nature: a Bit of HP to get to 25, then Atk and Spd, and probably Jolly nature?

-Substitute
-Reversal
-Aerial Ace
-Bug Bite

Guessing this would run into all kinds of problems with priority move users, and it doesn't help that Scyther would most certainly fear Ice Shard and Rock Blast/other subbreakers, but this could be an instant win against teams that aren't prepared for it.

Sneasel

Sneasel

Item: Oran Berry / Life Orb
Abilty: Does it really matter?
EVs: Atk and Spd, Jolly/Adamant nature

-Swords Dance
-Ice Shard / Ice Punch
-Bite / Punishment / Pursuit
-Brick Break / Pursuit

Simple like the Scyther set, just find a good turn to come in and sweep. Sneasel's probably better than Murkrow, but Murkrow might be able to clip it one-on-one with Hidden Power or Heat Wave, and despite Sneasel's surprisingly okay (by Little Cup standards) defenses, it has real problems with its brutal defensive typing making it weak to a lot of common LC attacking types. Also it loses out on some powerful moves for whatever reason: it doesn't get Sucker Punch or Night Slash so its Dark STAB is up in the air. I like Bite for flinch, but I image that it might not OHKO certain pokes even after a Swords Dance.

Also I suppose theres some value in making Sneasel a leadoff with Fake Out and Taunt but I don't know if thats its style. Thief and Knock Off can also be thrown on somewhere maybe.

Tangela

Tangela

Endeavor to Succeed

Item: Focus Sash
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: SpAtk and Spd and whatever the helll you guys do to make Endeavor work, I've never understood the move.

-Sunny Day
-Endeavor
-Sleep Powder
-Energy Ball / Solar Beam

Took this from Tangela's NU set, and it probably does okay here, as I remember FEAR Rattata being a cool thing that existed back in the day. No priority move, but it does have Sleep Powder and a strong STAB attack.

---

Scarf Sweeper

Item: Choice Scarf
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: SpAtk and Spd, Modest/Timid nature

-Energy Ball
-HP Fire
-Ancientpower
-Leaf Storm / Sludge Bomb

Might need someone to set up Sunny Day for it, in which case you might want to try Specs over Scarf. Ancientpower is for a shot at OHKOing Scyther and Yanma maybe. Be careful with using Hidden Power on this thing BTW, Tangela I've noticed is one of those pokemon that use all their EVs instead of having 36 or 40 spare like other LCmons, so you might cost yourself a potentially vital point of HP or defenses depending on which Hidden Power you use.

---

Sunny Day

Item: Oran Berry / Heat Rock?
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: SpAtk and Spd, Modest/Timid nature

-Sunny Day
-Energy Ball / Solar Beam
-HP Fire / Ancientpower
-HP Fire / Ancientpower / Morning Sun / Synthesis / Sleep Powder?

I kinda don't get why Tangela is even banworthy aside from quantity of stats. Maybe its just too tough for even the big bois like Munchlax and the like to take down, but looking at the usage lists I'm guessing Sunny Day teams are not really in vogue, probably because of their weird synergy, the fact Snover/Hippopotas can put up weather to counteract it, and the fact they don't have Drought Vulpix yet to unleash their potential. Maybe Tangela provides the needed stability to actually use Sunny Day and get the ball rolling, but is this really _THAT_ much better than Exeggcute or Bellsprout, who aren't even listed in the usage charts?

EDIT: okay nvm looked back on some Gen 5 banlist discussion and that Defense stat is a big deal. It probably would still have problems in a no holds barred environment though because every pokemon listed here except Misdreavus has a Super Effective move in the chamber for it, so it would be possibly hard to switch in and set up, you'd have to wait for something to faint first.

Yanma

Yanma

Special Attacker

Item: Life Orb / Oran Berry
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: SpAtk, maybe Speed if you need to outrun Scarfers, otherwise defenses, Modest/Timid nature

-Protect / Substitute
-Bug Buzz
-Air Slash
-HP Rock

Simple enough, stall a turn then hit hard with whatevers appropriate. I don't know if Scyther and Yanma could either do a Double Dragon type strat or would sorta put each other out of a job because you really don't want all those weaknesses around and multiplied by 2.

Also might be worth mentioning that Yanma gets Whirlwind, which could be a nasty surprise against a couple of the mons already listed, except Yanma is weak to them and thus would have a hard time coming in.

---

SubRevver

Item: Liechi Berry / Focus Sash?
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: Atk, enough HP to get to 25, rest in speed

-Substitute
-Reversal
-Bug Bite
-Aerial Ace / U-Turn?

Physical Yanma is not as good due to lower stats and movepool, but Subrevving is fun if you catch the opponent without a priority move user, and Yanma due to Speed Boost probably does it better than Scyther because Scyther might need the Salac kick to outspeed certain Choice Scarfers, whereas Yanma does not and can go Liechi for more power.

 

[reggg]

I've been trying to learn DPP the past year or so, starting with DPPPL, the ROA tournament, helping build a bit in LCPL, and then more seriously in team tours with the last LPL and LCBC. Really have to come to love this tier, what you can do in the builder and with ev spreads has been a lot of fun for me to work on. I wanted to make a post just with a few thoughts on a few mons, I'm still pretty new to it all but I've tried to my best to be informed in the meta. Shout out to my friend Kaboom for letting me stick it out in DPP for LPL and LCBC and helping me iron out teams.

First off, croagunk, I really love this mon in dpp and think people are overhating it. Water Spam is one of, if not the, strongest archetypes in the tier, Chinchou is probably a top 5 mon to me and between Wailmer, Staryu, Mantyke, and the occasional Buizel, Croagunk being an immunity is so valuable in the team builder. Rain is also incredibly scary, sometimes just autowinning match ups, and there is nothing I would rather have in a rain mu than Croagunk. I think where people are maybe underutilizing croagunk is with its move set and its evs. Its coverage options are incredible, multiple forms of priority, and while its bulk isn't the best, with enough investment you can avoid certain KO's. Thunder Punch for Mantyke, Vacuume Wave for Kabuto, Earthquake for Chinchou, the choices are great its just a matter of figuring out how to best support the rest of your team and what moves/evs best suite you. And this is all without mentioning broken Swords Dance Snover and how Croagunk is one of the best options at dealing with it. Tazz has mentioned a sort of "checklist" before when talking about dpp, and how utilizing certain mons to cover that checklist can be done in a variety of ways. I think Croagunk covers a lot of ground for teams, and lets you have more options elsewhere when building. Is it an A+ mon like it is currently ranked? Probably not, but I think it is no worse than A tier and people should respect it more because of how well it can help vs other top mons/playstyles.

Another pokemon I think people underutilize, the issue with Porygon for me has been figuring out where it fits in best. Should I use a scarf set? If so, mixed with Download, or Trace with Tri Attack? If I use mixed, what moves do I even run, and how do I figure out the evs? It felt like a mon that was hard to get the most out of, until I was watching some replays and found this set from Melon, Life Orb mixed Pory in the lead slot. With a Download boost and Life Orb, STAB Return can be a nightmare to deal with alongside the coverage options. It can use Psychic to hit Koffing, Thunderbolt to hit Waters, Icy Wind or Ice Beam, Shadow Ball for ghosts, Protect for Aipom, HP Fire for Bronzor, its options are vast. Oran is also valid, giving it longevity and the potential to bring down at least 2 mons with it. I think Porygon is good enough to be in the A- tier, I think it is noticeably better than the other options in B+ due to its set versatility and offensive capability, mixed Download making it so hard to switch into.

Wynaut feels like it should be used more considering its ability to completely negate some pokemon/teamstyles, as well as enable your own. I've seen Tazz say he is down on it, but I was really impressed with Wynaut when trying it out. The ability to just remove Bronzor is pretty crazy, and it can also be a great emergency check to almost anything, and is decepitively good versus rain. Where is falls short is when you either face a faster Bronzor and Wynaut's utility falls flat, or if the opponent catches your Wynaut with a Stunky. Maybe a higher upside - lower downside type of pokemon and does not fit on a lot of teams, but I like what it offers and could defintely experiment more with the types of teams you put it on.

Bronzor is a pokemon I know is good but I often found myself opting away from it, especially in LCBC where I only brought it once and it was on an Agility Pass team. Probably the best defensive pokemon in the tier (next to the goat Munchlax) with that typing and ability, but I usually ended up wanting to stick with more offensive options for my team slots, I think I was scared of giving up momentum by using it but this is certainly a skill issue. I will surely have to work on incorporating Bronzor more into my teams, you can do some fun moveslot variation with it that I'll have to do. Probably my favorite thing about it is not having to waste a moveslot with Stealth Rocks on Gligar.

In the DPP Invitational held last year, Aipom was used the 19th most, or just under 6% of the time at at 13 uses, 11 of which were in the lead slot. In LCBC so far, Aipom sits at tied for 11th most usage, or about 13% of the time at 8 uses, 6 of which were in the lead. Maybe this is just me being new but I think Aipom is amazing and should be ranked in the A tier, I think it is almost a top 10 mon. Its 19 speed tier and access to priority, coverage to hit nearly anything it wants to with supereffective damage, and ability to pivot with U-turn, I just can't get enough of in this tier. As good as it is in the lead, I think more people should experiment with Aipom in the back. Using it in the mid to late game as a sort of cleaner and chipping down the opponent until you can just spam Return to get kills is just lovely. It can also help against some cheese playstyles, stalling out rain or screen turns or just revenging a faster mon. Even its bulk is very solid, usually being able to take most neutral hits from full. The biggest issue is the longevity of course, getting worn down by life orb / stealth rocks / hail chip all racking up, putting it on a pretty fast timer in game. However I think its bonuses outweigh this negative and that is it exceptionally better than most other mons ranked in the A- tier.



I don't know if this thread is exactly the spot for something like this since its mostly VR posts, but I was inspired by Nineveh's post from last year and just wanted the opportunity to talk about the meta since I don't see a lot of that on forums anymore for DPP LC. I've just really enjoyed the creativity that can go into DPP, even with sticking with a conventional looking team the sets and spreads can be very customizable to fit what you want for a certain opponent, just been a breathe of fresh air for me lately and I hope to get the chance to play and build it in future team tours.

 

[PigWarrior19]

Just want to post a few thoughts in this thread, mainly abt chop but I do want to talk abt the VR and stuff.

I'd love to see what y'all think abt chop personally I think it should be suspected mainly because of it's maddening move dpunch and how that restricts you when building. I see chop in the same vein as I see something like Machamp in DPP OU where it's not outright broken or even that incredible just frustrating to account for and diminishes gameplay because of its major RNG fishing element.

1.+ Suit trappers


Offensive Checks: few more
Defensive Checks: (Maybe???)


LO Psychic Gast wins if they get their clicks right against chop and the potential stunky in the back, but you also lose to Sash, WoW Gast loses if Chop has guts/lum, if it doesn't have either chop still get a decent amount of value, all subsequent sets have to click boom or pray they crit one of their stabs while dealing with the thought of the aforementioned stunky coming in and farming them. Gast can beat stunky but it's a tie and a predict at best. is a fake trapper for gast if it's not scarfed and even if it is it's one sludge bomb poison away from dying and it's fodder for whatever's coming in next

It's a ghost so it's p solid into the scarf set has wisp and a few real nice tools to ensure you at least go 1 for 1 with chop/stunky WoW makes stunky have a hard time finding an in unless it's lum (or you miss) even then it's a call between you switching and staying in since suit doesn't kill the only issue is you can't really do anything aside from buring it or clicking boom/dbond TLDR it's not terrible but still loses if they have a stunky (Hounds fake but does trap loon p well it does tie but loon can't rly do much)

Loses if chop has sub/lum/guts it trades decently well if chops oran/custap, duskull has a slightly more favorable mu since it doesn't just die to stunky outright since you've got some decent bulk that you can leverage to squeak out some dubs if you're lucky, you also make the zig mu sooooooo much worse by opting for duskull > Loon/Gastly less important Ik just a big Duskull hater (Hounds fake asf but is almost a hard duskull counter)

Good bulk nice resist with solid applications into other mainstream threats, only issue is it's not a ghost type nor does it have own tempo so can be trolled by dpunch it's v good against lead chop don't get me wrong it's just not all that good in the back as a switch in since dpunch makes it unreliable

Wins if it's scarf has trouble with faster sub but overall is not bad at handling chop just need to pray it doesn't get confused (or run safeguard lol)

Bad mon on non TR structures but is a perfect machop counter, psychic type with good bulk and own tempo thwarts any dpunch shenanigans but, you're running slowpoke so uh glhf

It has own tempo and is a psychic type you could use it. but why....

VR stuff
A- <--> A+ mons a machine has some real nice variety incredible stats incredible stabs and just overall amazing trading potential having the ability to 1v1 just abt anything in the tier from oran to lead mystic water spout to get some nice, surprising KOs on bulkier leads like chop and Koffing to scarf to custap with enough EVs to live modest chou tbolt and bonk it with quake or boom it really can do almost anything you want mons absolutely A+ or even S- if we had it I didn't even mention it's a water type and a real nice piece to have into rain

A- <--> A+ No mienfoo no timburr? No Problem! Click the button and something will die! If you land, mons an absolute terror with 24 atk stab head smash rly solid scarfer, rly solid lead, decent typing finds a lot of ins against common mid grounds has mold breaker EQ asw for zor and gast overall amazing breaker def deserving of a higher rank

 

[tazz]

New viability ranking! Asked for lists from some of DPP LCs top players, in addition to current council. Big thanks to: Zcarlett Melon Fantos13 Heysup HSOWA reggg Imanalt Nails I will edit these into the OP sometime tomorrow. This is a huge reordering from the current list, and there are too many changes to write out all the shifts.

These rankings are based on the common trends of all the rankings - I tried my best, with a couple notes below

A couple problems I had to overcome

1. Some lists packed large amounts of mons at similar levels of availability at different ranks - on this list I've split A- and B+, but many people had a tiny B+ rank and a huge A- rank and vice versa

2. For a similar problem, on some lists the lower range of viability was B-, and others were C - at that point, they'd just dump all the mons that are usable but aren't really that good. I had to make a decision for this list, and here the dumping ground is C. I'm going to be adding a C rank to the OP, just need to decide from the list what Pokemon are going to be included.

3. Some Pokemon were incredibly controversial (Looking at you, Ponyta: viability ranged from A rank to C rank!), and I had to make judgment calls. I went with where most people put the Pokemon usually, and may have downgraded/upgraded it a rank if the balance between lovers/haters of the mon was close. I've bolded the most controversial Pokemon on this post, if the reader is curious.

S Rank

Munchlax
Gligar

A+ Rank

Gastly
Chinchou
Snover
Bronzor

A Rank

Wailmer
Duskull
Machop
Stunky

A- Rank

Cranidos
Mantyke
Aipom
Croagunk
Staryu
Voltorb
Kabuto

B+

Koffing
Houndour
Diglett
Elekid
Wynaut
Porygon
Dratini
Ponyta

B

Zigzagoon
Aron
Drifloon
Mankey
Omanyte
Buizel
Doduo
Abra

B-

Bagon
Magnemite
Horsea
Tailow

 

[Eeveeto]

I am back with my nonsense. First 3 weeks of DPPWC I put almost 0 effort and used 2 old teams and one almost untested. Starting from week 4, I became more free and as a result, managed to get a 5-2 record, which I am sure is enough to entitle me to post my opinions here about the Tier. Unfortunately, we still lost in Quarters, but this meta is still developing and new strategies can be discovered frequently.

First thing, the teams I used. Won,t waste time describing them, since the tour wasn,t won anyway.

Week 1 (L): https://pokepast.es/1c0cbada04d3a8d3
Week 2 (L): https://pokepast.es/b4b61d4b9b42b0fd
Week 3 (W): https://pokepast.es/98169d26355c6713
Week 4 (W): https://pokepast.es/30813e764fa6780e
Week 5 (W): https://pokepast.es/cd962af2ef81f7fa
Week 6 (W): https://pokepast.es/298eb308b25537e9
Quarterfinals (W): https://pokepast.es/170996b93a871bb4

A visual of all teams built prior to Quarters:

Teams built during Quarters (the top one was built today, after I have already played my game):

Now, the nominations. Before I start with nominating Mons up, I will show a list of Mons that are present on Tazz's last post but have not been used in DPPWC as of Quarters and say my opinion about each:

Horsea. This can stay ranked, is one of the many Swift Swimmers that are viable. Unlike the Rock ones its not weak to EQ or Vacuum Wave, unlike Mantyke its not weak to Rocks and unlike Buizel, its a special attacker.
Buizel. Same thing here. I am surprised it wasn,t used once so far.
Omanyte. Where is the Rain? I don,t particularly like the style, buts its GOOD. And Omanyte is one of the leading forces there. Should stay ranked.
Aron. This one wishes it had 1 more Speed point in order to be a good Scarfer. Unsuprising to see it not being used once, Cranidos is so much better (I will talk about Cranidos later). Just like Shieldon, its fully walled by Bronzor, but unlike it, it has almost 0 defensive utility, since its an offensive Mon... and not very good at that. I guess it can stay, but nominating it to B-
Doduo. Goated in theory, in practice it sucks. Rock types (except Aron) are better than ever and I would rather use Taillow, who has strong Facade and eats berries. Probably the last good usage of this Mon is in the Mononormal team that some people sometimes use. Nominating Doduo to Unranked, its worse than some of the Mons I used, and I used some very weird shit.


Another Mon that could go down:

Drifloon. Can be good under Screens, but too many weaknesses. It has been used 5 times so far... and it lost every battle. Nominating it to B-.
Dratini. 3 uses and all are Ls. Its not much better than Bagon, so B looks like a good rank.
Now, Mons that I think are better than current VR shows:

Gligar. Nominating it from S (below Munchlax) to S (above Munchlax). During the tour, I have found sometimes reasons to no run Munchlax, but never to not run Gligar. The only one I can think of is expecting opponent to run 6 Ice moves (which is not a terrible idea, but no one does this). Even vs Rain, supposedly bad match-up, Gligar often does something on non-Rain turns. Bronzor and Koffing are the only things that can be considered good checks, since Mantyke and Snover can be blown up by Stone Edge. 19 Speed and great overall Stats matter a lot, Gligar does something in every battle. Its also very versatile: EQ and Aqua Tail are the only move with 100% usage, but after that you can use SD, Night Slash, Brick Break (to screw Screens), Agility, Baton Pass, Quick Attack, Stealth Rock, Wing Attack, Substitute and Stone Edge, each with their own value. This Mon is the best non Scarfer Revenge Killer in the game... and it can be a Scarfer too. Gligar is the best Mon in the Tier in my opinion.

Cranidos. From A- to A+. For non Rock resists, this guy has an 80 Accuracy OHKO move. Head Smash's power is absurd and requires at least one Rock resist on each team to stop. Scarf set also has several good moves in last slot (Head Smash, EQ and secondary Rock STAB are always needed): Zen Headbutt is the one on site, but Blizzard/Ice Beam cover Gligar, while Pursuit surprises an escaping Gastly. Rock Polish sets are also good if you position yourself well. Some examples of Cranidos's performance during LCWC:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4lc-2463585442-rw6ukk06st4y6eq3248ijgll0qbph2jpw < This is me getting smashed by a Scarf Cranidos, who got 3 kills. It required a crit on Gligar and a 50/50 won with Stunky vs Mankey for it, but point stands, with Rock resists down, Cranidos is capable of incredible damage.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen4lc-881186?p2< Cranidos wears down a Bronzor and finishes the battle by OHKOing Munchlax from full, a task not many Mons without Fight Moves or Explosion are capable of doing.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen4lc-883528 < 2 Cranidos. One is Sash, killing a Gastly by reducing Speed with Rock Tomb. The other gets 2 OHKOs with Head Smash and even though it misses the third one, damage was enough to win the game by other means.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen4lc-884783 < Another game with 3 Head Smash KOs, though it required to avoid an Hydro Pump in the process.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen4lc-885026 < 2 Cranidos. The one that gets to attack kills the other one and another Mon.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen4lc-887152 < My game and there are 2 Cranidos here. Mine kills a +2 Gligar under Reflect. Opposing one scares my Cranidos (I haven,t considered Rock Polish and thought it was Scarf too), but then opponent commits a mistake and uses Rock Polish, allowing my Nosepass to blow it up. My Cranidos comes back 2 more times, killing a Staryu and then a Zigzagoon under Reflect, resisting Extreme Speed was key for it.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen4lc-889515 < Classic Scarf Cranidos cleaning. Scarf Gligar couldn,t have done this, since it can,t damage Levitate Bronzor.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen4lc-889164 < This is me using Sub + Rock Polish Cranidos and its the best Cranidos performance of the tour, getting 5 kills. The ammount of bulk that I put in the set allowed Cranidos to take Shadow Sneak and Vacuum Wave in a row.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen4lc-890951 < Superpower Cranidos getting 2 kills.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen4lc-891076 < This Sash Cranidos could have done a lot of damage if the lead Machop didn,t have Sash too.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen4lc-891835 < Another classic Scarf Cranidos getting 2 kills.

Hopefully this is enough to convince Cranidos is a great Mon that should be promoted. Some of my nominations below are made around Cranidos.

Croagunk: From A- to A. Used to dislike this Mon, but now I consider it to be on par with Stunky. Scarf sets are usable. Rain match-up is good and it resists Rock, so it can switch into Cranidos STAB once (though as seen in one of my games, sometimes it doesn,t do enough with Vacuum Wave).

Hippopotas: From Unranked to B+. I was the only one to use Sand twice and it won both times. Sand + Tspikes combined is a very good chip method, on top of removing other weathers. The Sdef Boost for Rock types allows them to take all kind of Special moves, this is relevant for Lileep, Shieldon... and Cranidos once again. In fact, almost every Rock type becomes way better if used in Sand, Kabuto and Omanyte for example are also usable to counter opposing Rain, I used a Nosepass too. Hippopotas's strength doesn,t end there, though, it also can switch into Cranidos's Head Smash, taking 50% max. Losing Sand Veil has not killed Sand, it can still work pretty well.

Tentacool: From Unranked to B. Hippopota's partner in crime, but also usable without it. This Mon is still underrated, but its typing is great. Sure, Croagunk is better as a Fight + Water resist, but Tentacool also takes Ice and Fire moves. Spin is good and Tspikes vs No grounded poisons (the most common one happens to be Gastly) are very useful.

Shieldon. Yep, I am nominating this guy again to B- . Under Sand it still walls a significant amount of the Tier. To prove that, I made a recopilation of the Mons all my opponents used and imagined what Shieldon + Sand could have done in each match-up:

Week 1: . Shieldon fully walls Stunky and most likely Gastly too (Hidden Power is very rare). It possibly walled Munchlax too, the Mon revealed 3 moves and none of them was Superpower or Brick Break. Shieldon also switches into Scarf Cranidos non EQ moves (though Hippo does that too).
Week 2: . A Gastly with 2 trappers + Pursuit Munchlax 100% sure won,t have Hidden Power, so Shieldon would have walled this. Regarding trappers, since my recommended item for Shieldon is Shed Shell, they don,t work. In Sand, Voltorb has a very low chance to 3HKO with Thunderbolt, so Shieldon could semi-reliably check it too, also scout Magnemite's moves (though that one does way more than Voltorb). The Munchlax likely had a Fight move, so he is discarded, but still, walling Gastly and kinda Voltorb, should be good enough.
Week 3: . Munchlax had Superpower and there is a Bronzor, so the match-up is terrible for Shieldon. Its unable to wall Cyndaquil and Elekid too. Still, it makes lead Gastly almost useless, so there is that.
Week 4: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4lc-2477222879-j5dcn2jldip7r7y4exu1gd29nc4ou04pw The week in which I actually used Shieldon. It succesfully walled Gastly and in fact humillated it by avoiding WoW twice and freezing it. It didn,t have to battle Wynaut, but with Sand, Tspikes, Rock Blast being multi-hit and Shed Shell, it was not a bad match-up.
Week 5: . Unless Hidden Power, Abra is walled. Munchlax revealed 2 moves and neither was Fight, so there was a chance. Funniest potential even was this one though:
+6 196+ Atk Zigzagoon Seed Bomb vs. 196 HP / 212+ Def Shieldon: 13-16 (59 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Week 6: The last 2 Mons are hell for Shieldon, but it fully walls Duskull and probably Smoochum too (unless Hidden Power). Munch revealed 2 moves, none were Fight, so there was a chance.

Quarters: :snubbul: Stunky is walled for certain. Gastly 90% of the times too. Munchlax had a chance to be walled as well. Finally, though the scenario is unlikely (Shieldon would likely be worn down), there is this calc:
+2 180+ Atk Snover Wood Hammer vs. 196 HP / 212+ Def Shieldon: 18-22 (81.8 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO


This means, Shieldon + Sand would contribute in every single game I played. Not necessarily winning them, but walling at least one Mon, sometimes potentially up to 4. This should be enough for B-, despite not being a traditional threat.

Smoochum. From Unranked to B-. This sounds weird, since every single guy who tried to use this Mon, myself included, lost the battle. But I believe it can be a good Scarfer with Blizzard in Hail. The set I used was this:


Besitos (Smoochum) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Forewarn
Level: 5
EVs: 240 SpA / 236 Spe
Modest Nature
- Blizzard
- Psychic
- Wish
- Copycat


Smoochum does not need offensive moves that are not STABs, it will never realistically click them. Copycat allows to avoid Sucker for one turn or chip down Munchlax with U-Turn provided by another Mon. Some other aplications for the moves exist. Meanwhile, Wish is meant to be used right before Smoochum dies in a bad match-up, allowing another Mon (Protect Snover, Gligar, etc.) to be brought back.

Onix. From Unranked to B. Has Rocks + Boom and 17 Speed. Can be EVed to survive most Munxhlax moves. Checks Stunky, checks Aipom, switches into Koffing and switches into Cranidos once.

Larvitar. From Unranked to B-.With DD under Screens, has devastating power. Not even Bronzor is a reliably stop, as seen in my week 3 game: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4lc-2471898489-51q6nbe9utltxx8fat9bu778dnk16hrpw

Trapinch. From Unranked to B-. Didn,t get to use this Mon, but it has big potential. With min Attack, it has more Attack than Diglett. In fact, it has more everything except Speed. The set to use is this:

Dandelion (Trapinch) (M) @ Oran Berry
Ability: Arena Trap
Level: 5
EVs: 236 HP / 236 Def / 36 Spe
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Bug Bite
- 2 out of: Crunch, Quick Attack, Protect and Hidden Power Ice.

Vs Munchlax Trapinch comes, eats the berry with Bug Bite, then kills with 2 EQs.
Vs Cranidos, it comes in, takes 2 hits thanks to Oran Berry, and kills. There is no more Cranidos OHKOing your team.
Vs Stunky, it comes in, forces the skunk to explode and at worst trades. If Trapinch has Protect, it can straight up win. This works the same vs Voltorb, though there is a small chance of 2HKO with HP Ice.
Vs Aron, it traps and kills. Vs Shieldon it comes in and does nothing, since Shieldon is goated and has Shed Shell.
Croagunk, Diglett and Ponyta can be revenge killed, they don,t OHKO.

In bad match-ups, Trapinch can still eat some berries at least, for example vs Bronzor. Obviously, the set provided is not the only viable one, Trapinch can still be used in Trick Room with Life Orb.

So, this is it, hopefully I convinced everyone how to play and build in Cranidos and Shieldon meta.

 

[tazz]

Thoughts on updates



I can get behind putting it to A Rank, it's definitely the best pokemon in A-. It doesn't have the splashability of the Pokemon above it though, so I'm a bit cautious. It's begging comparison to the other premier wallbreaking scarfer in Wailmer, and I think Wailmer is definitely better than Cranidos right now.



Definitely good enough for B rank, maybe B+?



I think this is good enough for B-, but not enough for B, especially without the sand veil strategies.



I can see B- for this, I've seen it used enough times that it clearly has niche use. It's not good but neither is anything else in B-



I think there's a wide variety of Pokemon that can function at the edge of viability, any Pokemon with a high attack stat and dragon dance can't be completely bad. The problem is that it's gonna get shut down by scarf water types and croagunk, when its competing dragon type dragon dancers will not. If those dragon dancers didn't exist this would be B-, but could I ever in good faith recommend someone use this when there exist nearly or equally as strong dragon dancers that are more difficult to revenge kill?



This seems far less annoying than Larvitar, even putting it in B- would be a push. I'd personally be against it.



I've seen this a couple times as a lead - an actually fairly annoying one to deal with, as it can plausibly be scarf or sash counter. There are a lot of weird Pokemon that can be usable because their rarity makes their sets hard to predict, and smoochum is certainly in that category. But as a lead it's certainly not a meme, can totally see B-.



Always such a hard and controversial Pokemon to rank - I think for the time being it's good in A-, as the rise in Wailmer hasn't raised its use nearly as much as I thought it would. It's not that it isn't good, but the bar for A rank is higher than ever.



I think we may have overestimated this one when you compare it to the crazy pokemon in A-, especially when rain has been declining a bit. Maybe B+?



The problem is that every major Pokemon it can beat (except Stunky and Duskull) can plausibly just hit it with a 4x coverage move, and it lets in lot of offensive threats in a tier where you really don't want to do that.