DPP Latias (Sub + CM) *

Bologo

Bologo

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http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/latias

Ok, so I've been testing out the SubCM variant of Latias for several months. She's consistently been an MVP on my teams, almost guaranteeing the win if physical attackers are dead. Having the ability to set up on Ice Beams and Shadow Balls and actually coming out on top is ridiculous, and I've been abusing that ever since I tried this set.

Now, I've decided to make a peer edit for it, since although it looks similar to the CM + Refresh set, it plays much differently. Refresh doesn't block crits or status like Substitute does (it cures status, but having to use it every time she gets statused is a pain), nor can it give Latias a chance to actually kill some of her checks such as Scarf Flygon or Scarf Salamence.

Anyway, here we go:


[SET]
name: Substitute + Calm Mind
move 1: Substitute
move 2: Calm Mind
move 3: Recover / Hidden Power Fire
move 4: Dragon Pulse
item: Leftovers
nature: Timid
evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>This set is another take on the Calm Minding Latias. However, this set works as a hybrid of the offensive and defensive variants. Like the offensive variant, there is an offensive EV spread to hit hard and fast. But like the defensive variant, this set takes full advantage of the Special Defense boost from Calm Mind to set up unbreakable Substitutes against special attackers.</p>

<p>Substitute and Calm Mind are obvious moves for this set. The combination lets Latias boost her Special Attack and Special Defense to ridiculous levels, allowing her to set up unbreakable Substitutes on nearly every special attacker in OU. It's worth noting that Latias has a very good chance of setting up on Rotom-A, who not only has a STAB super effective Shadow Ball, but also boasts 105 base Special Attack. Aside from helping Latias set up, Substitute also protects her from the critical hits that the defensive set hates, as well as the status that the offensive set hates. In addition, having a Substitute up means that Latias won't die instantly to Pursuit, because if she switches with a Substitute up, the Substitute will take the Pursuit, and not her.</p>

<p>Recover allows Latias to spam Calm Mind with ease, even against Ice Beams, and lets her shrug off the damage from the Substitutes. This also lets her come in and have another shot at her job if she failed to sweep before. While having Dragon Pulse as her only attack may reduce her coverage, Dragon-type moves have such good neutral coverage that it's not a problem. Also, many Steel-types in OU have poor Special Defense, or have a lot of trouble breaking Latias' Substitute once she gets going. If you save her as your final Pokemon, Skarmory, a common counter for this set, can't phaze her away. However, Hidden Power Fire is a fine option over Recover. While Latias will have a lot more trouble setting up on offensively-based Pokemon, it allows her to take out Scizor and Forretress when she's behind a Substitute. In addition, it can deal massive damage to Jirachi after a Calm Mind.</p>

<p>While the most efficient EV spread is an offensive sweeper spread, it is possible to go for a bulky spread. If you choose to take this route, use 208 HP / 48 Def / 252 Spe with a Timid nature. Max Speed is required so Latias has a chance to beat opposing Latias and Gengar. The HP and Defense EVs not only beef up her Substitutes on the physical side, but they also let her avoid OHKOs from +2 Life Orb Lucario using Extremespeed and +1 Life Orb Ice Fang from Gyarados. She can also avoid a 2HKO from Choice Band Scizor's Bullet Punch as well as Breloom's Focus Punch. </p>

<p>While this set takes care of some of the problems that other Calm Mind variants face, Scizor, Tyranitar, and Choice Scarf Jirachi still give this set hell. Magnezone, either SubRise or Choice Scarf, works well as a partner for Latias. It not only traps and kills Scizor and Jirachi, but Flash Cannon is an easy 2HKO on Tyranitar; getting rid of Steels generally makes it easier for SubCM Latias to sweep. Scizor is also a very good partner for taking on Scarfed Dragons such as Flygon and Salamence. While Latias can beat both of these when she's behind a Substitute, it's not a good idea to rely on this. Therefore, Scizor can take choiced Dragon-type attacks aimed at Latias, severely injure the Scarfed Dragons with Bullet Punch, or just scout the switch with U-turn. A Toxic Spiker such as Forretress is a good partner due to Toxic poison's good synergy with Substitute. Toxic Spikes will allow Latias to beat Tyranitar, the #1 counter to this set, by stalling it out with a combination of Substitute and Dragon Pulse. Lastly, while Blissey can be beaten in some situations, Latias will lose a majority of the time due to Seismic Toss and the threat of status. For this reason, a strong Fighting-type such as Machamp can prove very useful.</p>

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I tried to keep this analysis at a medium-length, so if it's too short or too big, help me make it fit what you guys want. I checked my grammar and syntax, but I may have missed something.

Also, if you guys want to contribute any new EV spreads, teammates, or anything else to add to the set, I'm open to criticism, since I only really put what I use since that's been most effective for me.

Thanks.
 
I definitely think Hidden Power Fire should be considered on this set. It would be slashed in with Recover, since Substitute is needed. The reason for this is because Latias will gain perfect coverage, aside from hitting Heatran neutrally. You can even put in a mention of Surf for that to if you want (also hits Tyranitar), but not so important as HP Fire.

It doesn't only gain perfect coverage, but with Steel-types generally switching into Latias, they will have to think twice. This is especially the case with Scizor, since it always tries to get that Bullet Punch or Pursuit in. So, if you get your Substitute up as it switches in, it's dead.

With or without Recover, Latias can still score multiple Calm Mind boosts depending on the situation its in, so if it lacks Recover, it's not really losing anything big. It will just be like Jirachi I guess you could say.

So all in all, slash in Hidden Power Fire with Recover and maybe make a tiny mention of Surf to cover Heatran and Tyranitar.
 
I'd like to get a few more opinions on adding HP Fire before I decide to. While it's a nice option for taking on Scizor, Jirachi, and Metagross, it takes away a large chunk of things that Latias can set up on. For instance, Latias isn't going to be setting up on Rotom-A at all, since it can no longer Recover off the damage from the Shadow Balls while it's setting up. Also, it can't set up on things like Swampert's Ice Beam, or come in more than once in the match.

I'm not gonna lie though, HP Fire does sound like a good option since Jirachi, Metagross, Scizor, and Skarmory ALWAYS come in if they're not dead. If enough people say it's a good option, I'll give it a slash, but after Recover, not before.

As for Surf, I probably won't give that a slash, but it could get a mention in set comments.

Thanks for the feedback.
 
This seems extremely similar to the Defensive Calm Mind set to me because Substitute and Refresh really serve the same purpose. I understand that Substitute has merits over Refresh (as you mentioned) but I think Substitute could just be Slashed in with the current Offensive Calm Mind (perhaps even as the primary option) set over Surf as it is almost the same set.
 
Crunchatize Me said:
This seems extremely similar to the Defensive Calm Mind set to me because Substitute and Refresh really serve the same purpose. I understand that Substitute has merits over Refresh (as you mentioned) but I think Substitute could just be Slashed in with the current Offensive Calm Mind (perhaps even as the primary option) set over Surf as it is almost the same set.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, I have to disagree. Refresh is basically just an option which lets Latias beat Blissey, and even then it's not guaranteed. Also, the defensive Calm Mind set faces the same fear of all pokemon's Calm Mind sets - critical hits.

Substitute on the other hand turns Latias into a Calm Minding machine, since a lot of special attackers simply can't break her Substitute, even without investment in HP or Special Defense. You'd be surprised how easy it is to get to +6 without even trying thanks to this. Much easier than if you were to use Refresh.

However, the poor coverage of this set means that this doesn't really fit in the offensive Calm Mind set. Just as well, this set requires a lot more setup than the offensive one, which is able to hit hard after just one CM due to Life Orb.

The reason I decided to make this into its own set is that it's basically a combination of the Defensive and Offensive Calm Mind sets. I'd say it's much better for use on Balanced teams than the other two because of this.
 
I do believe that this set is similar to the Defensive Calm Mind set. I partially agree with Crunchatize Me that both enables Latias to beat Blissey and to give it a way of dealing with status e.g. against non-Shadow Ball Rotom-A. Though Refresh and Substitute have slightly different uses, both Substitute and Refresh are slashed onto the standard Latias set in Ubers, and I don't see why this shouldn't be the case for this set.

I also see Substitute as sharing similarities to Reflect. Reflect is used to scout for physical switch-ins that pose a threat to Latias, most notoriously Scizor and Tyranitar, whilst enabling Latias to switch out of Pursuit and survive. Substitute also enables Latias to take a Pursuit, and is generally used to scout for possible threats.
 
Though Refresh and Substitute have slightly different uses, both Substitute and Refresh are slashed onto the standard Latias set in Ubers, and I don't see why this shouldn't be the case for this set.
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Actually, Substitute isn't slashed in the ubers set at all. It gets a 1-sentence mention in set comments that doesn't even explain its use, and that's basically all the mention it gets throughout the entire analysis, for both OU and Ubers. I can see why it wouldn't be mentioned much for ubers though, since Latios probably does this set better in Ubers (with Soul Dew of course).

I just feel like putting Substitute and Refresh on the same set that already has slashitis in the last slot, when they serve completely different purposes, is a bad idea. Since that set already has like 3 slashes in the last slot, Substitute is barely even going to be getting a mention, and I don't that does the move justice, considering how much better it is than the three moves already slashed IMO.

Being able to kill a lot of things that would normally check you is something that really sets Substitute out from the the bunch, as well as almost always securing the win if they can't break the Substitute in one hit (once Steels not named Heatran are gone, that is).

Also, one thing I forgot to mention: This set is actually one thing that sets Latias apart from all other CMers, her "niche". No other pokemon can use the combination of Substitute/Calm Mind/Recovery move as well as Latias, except maybe Latios. The reason being that her attacking move not only gets STAB, but very good coverage just by itself. Most other pokemon using this combination are walled by a plethora of types, but Latias is only walled by Steels, many of which she can take care of. Also, unlike a lot of other possible users of this combination, she actually has good defensive stats and a good typing, as well as being fast enough to use the moves before the opponent hits her - this is very important for every single move on this set. When there's an effective set that she can do better than any pokemon in OU, I feel that it should get its own set.
 
Actually, Substitute isn't slashed in the ubers set at all. It gets a 1-sentence mention in set comments that doesn't even explain its use, and that's basically all the mention it gets throughout the entire analysis, for both OU and Ubers. I can see why it wouldn't be mentioned much for ubers though, since Latios probably does this set better in Ubers (with Soul Dew of course).
Click to expand...

Ok, my bad. But as for the rest,

I just feel like putting Substitute and Refresh on the same set that already has slashitis in the last slot, when they serve completely different purposes, is a bad idea. Since that set already has like 3 slashes in the last slot, Substitute is barely even going to be getting a mention, and I don't that does the move justice, considering how much better it is than the three moves already slashed IMO.

Being able to kill a lot of things that would normally check you is something that really sets Substitute out from the the bunch, as well as almost always securing the win if they can't break the Substitute in one hit (once Steels not named Heatran are gone, that is).

Also, one thing I forgot to mention: This set is actually one thing that sets Latias apart from all other CMers, her "niche". No other pokemon can use the combination of Substitute/Calm Mind/Recovery move as well as Latias, except maybe Latios. The reason being that her attacking move not only gets STAB, but very good coverage just by itself. Most other pokemon using this combination are walled by a plethora of types, but Latias is only walled by Steels, many of which she can take care of. Also, unlike a lot of other possible users of this combination, she actually has good defensive stats and a good typing, as well as being fast enough to use the moves before the opponent hits her - this is very important for every single move on this set. When there's an effective set that she can do better than any pokemon in OU, I feel that it should get its own set.
Click to expand...

After reading the analysis again, and in trying to find reason to use Substitute, I would definitely not claim this set to be a "much better option than the three moves already slashed IMO."

This set doesn't reliably beat Blissey; only Refresh enables Blissey to do this. If Blissey has Seismic Toss and Toxic (used 52.5% and 42.2% respectively in October), she can spam Seismic Toss to force Latias to use Recover and hit her with Toxic whilst she does so. Thunder Wave could also be used instead of Toxic if the Blissey user can handle a paralysed Latias with some CM boosts. Latias also cannot switch in on Blissey as it uses a status move, or Seismic Toss and Ice Beam if Blissey has a status attack. (On the note of Ice Beam, Latias needs two CM boosts in order to have her Subs withstand an Ice Beam (and that's not guaranteed), so Latias will be forced to use Recover before she can set up an "unbreakable" Substitute.)

Sub Latias doesn't reliably handle Tyranitar and Scizor too. Latias isn't going to be doing anything back to them with just Dragon Pulse, even if she sets up a Sub on their switch in. Tyranitar and Scizor can just use Pursuit to spell her doom, and Scizor also has the option to U-turn, sending in another Latias counter/check whilst breaking the Sub in the process. At best, Latias switches out of Pursuit, losing only the HP used to create the Sub (excluding Leftovers and Sandstorm). But you could then argue that Reflect would be better for the team support. Reflect or HP Fire is also a much better option against Metagross (and HP Fire should never replace Dragon Pulse, Recover or CM).

Rotom-A is a poor reason to use this set. Choice Rotom-A has no problems against this set with Shadow Ball, (Modest 252 SpA Scarf Shadow Ball has a 33.3% chance to OHKO a full HP Latias). Other Rotom-A sets wouldn't swap into Latias anyways, so Substitute has little use for dealing with the appliance.

This is also the worse set to use if your opponent has Skarmory or any other pHazer; Substitute is wasted HP against them.

Also, most of the analysis' comments apply for any CM Latias, including the Team Options section. Substitute should either be a slash, or mentioned in set comments. Latias doesn't need Substitute to beat most all of the special attackers, and those that would beat her wouldn't swap in on her due to CM. Even if Substitute does help against special attackers, which special attacker would actually stay in on Latias in the first place unless it could beat it by sheer force?
 
Bologo said:
[SET]
name: Substitute + Calm Mind
move 1: Substitute
move 2: Calm Mind
move 3: Recover
move 4: Dragon Pulse
item: Leftovers
nature: Timid
evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>This set is another take on the Calm Minding Latias. However, this set works as a hybrid of the offensive and defensive variants. Like the offensive variant, there is an offensive EV spread to hit hard and fast. But like the defensive variant, this set takes full advantage of the Special Defense boost from Calm Mind to set up unbreakable Substitutes against special attackers.</p>

<p>Substitute and Calm Mind are obvious moves for this set. The combination lets Latias boost her Special Attack and Special Defense to ridiculous levels, allowing her to set up unbreakable Substitutes on nearly every special attack in OU. It's worth noting that Latias has a very good chance of setting up on Rotom-A, who not only has a STAB super effective Shadow Ball, but also boasts 105 base Special Attack. Aside from helping Latias set up, Substitute also protects her from the critical hits that the defensive set hates, as well as the status that the offensive set hates. In addition, having a Substitute up means that Latias won't die instantly to Pursuit, because if she switches with a Substitute up, the Substitute will take the Pursuit, not her.</p>

<p>Recover allows Latias to spam Calm Mind with ease, even against Ice Beams, and lets her shrug off the damage from the Substitutes. This also lets her come in and have another shot at her job if she messed up before. While having Dragon Pulse as her only attack may reduce her coverage, Dragon-type moves have such good neutral coverage that it's not so bad. Also, many Steel types in OU have poor Special Defense, or have a lot of trouble breaking Latias' Substitute once she gets going. If you save her as your final pokemon, Skarmory, a common counter for this set, can't phaze her away.</p>

<p>While this set takes care of some of the problems that other Calm Mind variants face, Scizor, Tyranitar, and Scarf Jirachi still give this set hell. Magnezone, either SubRise or Choice Scarf, works well as a partner for Latias. It not only traps and kills Scizor and Jirachi, but Flash Cannon is an easy 2HKO on Tyranitar. Also, getting rid of Steels generally makes it easier for SubCM Latias to sweep. Scizor is also a very good partner for taking on Scarfed Dragons such as Flygon and Salamence. While Latias can beat both of these when she's behind a Substitute, it's not a good idea to overly rely on this. Therefore, Scizor can take choiced Dragon attacks aimed at Latias, severely injure the Scarfed Dragons with Bullet Punch, or just scout the switch with U-turn.</p>
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Just a few changes to make:

In the third paragraph:
Bologo said:
Also, many Steel-types in OU have poor Special Defense, or have a lot of trouble breaking Latias' Substitute once she gets going. If you save her as your final pokemon, Skarmory, a common counter for this set, can't phaze her away.</p>
Click to expand...

And in the last paragraph:

Bologo said:
<p>While this set takes care of some of the problems that other Calm Mind variants face, Scizor, Tyranitar, and Scarf Jirachi still give this set hell. Magnezone, either SubRise or Choice Scarf, works well as a partner for Latias. It not only traps and kills Scizor and Jirachi, but Flash Cannon is an easy 2HKO on Tyranitar. Also, getting rid of Steel-types generally makes it easier for SubCM Latias to sweep. Scizor is also a very good partner for taking on Scarfed Dragon-types such as Flygon and Salamence. While Latias can beat both of these when she's behind a Substitute, it's not a good idea to overly rely on this. Therefore, Scizor can take choiced Dragon-type attacks aimed at Latias, severely injure the Scarfed Dragons with Bullet Punch, or just scout the switch with U-turn.</p>
Click to expand...
 
I tried using this set... It is VERY effective with Toxic Spikes on the field so I would mention how that is helpful. With Toxic Spikes you can stall out Tyranitar and a myriad of other pokemon, which says alot.
 
I agree with RL. I'd also mention how Seisimic Toss Blissey screws this set up because, in theory, it CAN beat those that lack the attack.
 
Bologo said:
http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/latias

Ok, so I've been testing out the SubCM variant of Latias for several months. She's consistently been an MVP on my teams, almost guaranteeing the win if physical attackers are dead. Having the ability to set up on Ice Beams and Shadow Balls and actually coming out on top is ridiculous, and I've been abusing that ever since I tried this set.

Now, I've decided to make a peer edit for it, since although it looks similar to the CM + Refresh set, it plays much differently. Refresh doesn't block crits or status like Substitute does (it cures status, but having to use it every time she gets statused is a pain), nor can it give Latias a chance to actually kill some of her checks such as Scarf Flygon or Scarf Salamence.

Anyway, here we go:


[SET]
name: Substitute + Calm Mind
move 1: Substitute
move 2: Calm Mind
move 3: Recover
move 4: Dragon Pulse
item: Leftovers
nature: Timid
evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>This set is another take on the Calm Mind Latias variant. However, this set works as a hybrid of the offensive and defensive variants. Like the offensive variant, there is an offensive EV spread to hit hard and fast. But like the defensive variant, this set takes full advantage of the Special Defense boost from Calm Mind to set up unbreakable Substitutes against special attackers.</p>

<p>Substitute and Calm Mind are obvious moves for this set. The combination lets Latias boost her Special Attack and Special Defense to ridiculous levels, allowing her to set up unbreakable Substitutes on nearly every special attacker in OU. It's worth noting that Latias has a very good chance of setting up on Rotom-A, who not only has a STAB super effective Shadow Ball, but also boasts 105 base Special Attack. Aside from helping Latias set up, Substitute also protects her from the critical hits that the defensive set hates, as well as the status that the offensive set hates. In addition, having a Substitute up means that Latias won't die instantly to Pursuit, because if she switches with a Substitute up, the Substitute will take the Pursuit, and not her.</p>

<p>Recover allows Latias to spam Calm Mind with ease, even against Ice Beams, and lets her shrug off the damage from the Substitutes. This also lets her come in and have another shot at her job if she failed to sweep before. While having Dragon Pulse as her only attack may reduce her coverage, Dragon-type moves have such good neutral coverage that it's not a big problem. Also, many Steel-types in OU have poor Special Defense, or have a lot of trouble breaking Latias' Substitute once she gets going. If you save her as your final pokemon, Skarmory, a common counter for this set, can't phaze her away.</p>

<p>While this set takes care of some of the problems that other Calm Mind variants face, Scizor, Tyranitar, and Choice Scarf Jirachi still give this set hell. Magnezone, either SubRise or Choice Scarf, works well as a partner for Latias. It not only traps and kills Scizor and Jirachi, but Flash Cannon is an easy 2HKO on Tyranitar; getting rid of Steels generally makes it easier for SubCM Latias to sweep in general. Scizor is also a very good partner for taking on Scarfed Dragons such as Flygon and Salamence. While Latias can beat both of these when she's behind a Substitute, it's not a good idea to rely on this. Therefore, Scizor can take choiced Dragon-type attacks aimed at Latias, severely injure the Scarfed Dragons with Bullet Punch, or just scout the switch with U-turn.</p>
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Nice job, most of the changes were just personal preferences. This set really is fantastic with proper team support, I tried it out earlier today :]
 
Alright, everyone's suggestion have been taken into consideration and I did some edits to the OP. Thanks everyone.
 
Bologo, have you ever considered a bulkier EV spread? Just wondering if there is anything useful about having max special attack, especially if the object is to keep the Substitutes in tact and set up for a slower sweep. Latias Base 80 HP is rather mediocre and she appreciates a healthy dose of HP, especially when it would be making bulkier Substitutes.
 
I've personally never used anymore than 4 HP EVs, but that's because every team this ends up on for me is super offensive. If you guys have any bulkier EV spreads that you've tested, then post them and I'll include them. But I'm really not sure how much HP EVs Latias needs, since it's not quite as easy to EV as something like Jirachi. The only thing I'm certain about is the max Speed so Latias doesn't get raped by other Latis and Gengar.
 
I personally run 208 HP EVs, which is 353, then Max Speed, and the rest in physical defense. So thats 208 HP / 48 Def / 252 Spe, Timid. I find those EVs effective for surviving things like SD Lukes Extremespeed (helpful if your an HP Fire varient), survivng Gyarados onslaughts, and being able to handle things like Breloom and Cursepert easier.
 
Hm, I do like the fact that your spread can avoid a 2HKO from CB Scizor's Bullet Punch as well. I'll give it a mention in the analysis, though it's probably more suited to a more defensive team.
 
Going along with Fuzznip's post, I would definitely slash Hidden Power Fire in with Recover. It works very well on Sub CM Latias (I've used it).
 
I've been using this set with Toxic Spikes (while testing Nidoqueen in OU) and a bulkier 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe spread (I'll try out RL's spread) for a while now. It is absolutely fantastic later in the game when you can stall out -2 Draco Meteor Latias, Specs Shadow Ball Jolteon, Blissey, Rotom, Tyranitar, Payback Forretress, etc. Definetly star of my TS team and I 110% support this set going on site.

<p>Recover allows Latias to spam Calm Mind with ease, even against Ice Beams, and lets her shrug off the damage from the Substitutes. This also lets her come in and have another shot at her job if she failed to sweep before. While having Dragon Pulse as her only attack may reduce her coverage, Dragon-type moves have such good neutral coverage that it's not a problem. Also, many Steel-types in OU have poor Special Defense, or have a lot of trouble breaking Latias' Substitute once she gets going. If you save her as your final Pokemon, Skarmory, a common counter for this set, can't phaze her away. However, Hidden Power Fire is a fine option over Recover. While Latias will have a lot more trouble setting up on offensively-based Pokemon, it allows her to take out Scizor and Forretress when she's behind a Substitute. In addition, it can deal massive damage to Jirachi after a Calm Mind.</p>
Click to expand...
 
I tried out RL's spread, and it works very well with Toxic Spikes. Heh, just for fun I tried passing an Aqua Ring from Vaporeon, and if it successfully passes to Latias and she gets a Sub up, the opponent is in a shitload of trouble, lol the only way to stop it is having a very hard-hitting Scarfer (on the physical side), a phazer, or Scizor. Anyways, to sum it up, Toxic Spikes works extremely well and, both the offensive and defensive EV spreads are quite sound.

Anyway, I don't think there's much else to add. If there are no objections, I'll upload this in 24 hours.
 
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