DPP Empoleon (update) +

Legacy Raider

sharpening his claws, slowly
is a Top Team Rater Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
395.png


http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/empoleon

__________________

Changes:
  • Minor corrections throughout (grammar, missing punctuation, etc).
  • Expanded all set comments to take into account team support options.
  • Added 'Team Options' section.
  • Expanded Counters to include Latias for the LO and Petaya sets, and Gyarados and Salamence for SD.
__________________

[SET]
name: Agility SubPetaya
move 1: Agility
move 2: Substitute
move 3: Surf
move 4: Ice Beam / Grass Knot
nature: Modest
item: Petaya Berry
evs: 12 HP / 12 Def / 252 SpA / 232 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Despite its defensively leaning stats, Empoleon's primary role is as a threatening late game sweeper. Using this set is fairly simple: bring Empoleon in on one of the 12 types of attacks it resists, Agility on the switch, and then use Substitute until Petaya Berry activates, increasing Empoleon's Special Attack stat to 529. With Torrent active, the power of Surf will be further multiplied by 1.5, allowing Empoleon to muscle through even Pokemon that resist Water-type attacks. As a bonus, Empoleon resists nearly every priority move in the game, including 4x resistances to the wildly popular Bullet Punch (Scizor) and Ice Shard (Mamoswine and Weavile). These key resistances ensure that Empoleon's sweep will likely not be ended by any priority attack short of Mach Punch or Vacuum Wave.</p>

<p>This set is almost unstoppable with the proper team support. Stealth Rock and 2 layers of Toxic Spikes is ideal, though the latter is optional if you can manage to lure out and KO Blissey and other Water-types. With Toxic Spikes in play, Empoleon can set up on (and beat) the standard Blissey and Vaporeon one-on-one by simply Substituting and watching them struggle to break Empoleon's Substitutes (assuming Blissey is without Seismic Toss) as the poison damage builds up. Stealth Rock will also help in weakening Grass-types like Celebi by putting them in the KO range of Ice Beam. Once you have set up these key entry hazards, there is only a small number of Pokémon that can stop Empoleon from a sweep.</p>

<p>The choice between Ice Beam and Grass Knot is tricky, and it depends mostly on whether or not your team has an easier time dealing with Water-types or Salamence, Latias, and Celebi. Ice Beam is recommended since Empoleon can beat all of its Grass Knot targets if Toxic Spikes are in play anyway, but if Toxic Spikes are not an option on your team then Grass Knot can be used.</p>

<p>A final option for this set is Hydro Pump over Surf, though it is not recommended. While it secures OHKOs on bulky Pokémon such as Salamence and Dusknoir with Stealth Rock support alone, generally the 80% accuracy will ruin Empoleon's sweep more often than these Pokémon will. If you do decide to run it, Stealth Rock support becomes essential to guarantee the KOs on the aforementioned Pokémon.</p>

<p>Despite the massive power behind a Petaya Torrent Surf, it will still fail to break the special walling behemoth that is Blissey by itself. As such, having a strong Pursuit user to weaken her as she switches in fear can be greatly beneficial to Empoleon's sweep. If you can get Blissey down to around 35% health, a Surf should have the power to take her down. While Tyranitar is a fine choice as a Pursuit user, it is best not used in tandem with Empoleon because of the shared weaknesses to Fighting and Ground. Scizor shares a Steel typing with Empoleon but they don't have any weaknesses in common, and will greatly help in wearing away at Blissey, and Celebi and Latias for those who decide to run Grass Knot over Ice Beam.</p>


[SET]
name: Agility, Three Attacks
move 1: Surf / Hydro Pump
move 2: Ice Beam
move 3: Grass Knot
move 4: Agility
item: Life Orb
nature: Modest
evs: 24 HP / 252 SpA / 232 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>In contrast to the SubPetaya set, this Empoleon takes full advantage of the perfect type coverage granted by running both Grass Knot and Ice Beam on the same set. Life Orb goes a little way toward making up the difference in raw damage output, while simultaneously lowering Empoleon's HP into Torrent range.</p>

<p>The choice between Surf and Hydro Pump is an age-old battle between reliability and power. Surf will never miss, but a Life Orb Hydro Pump will always OHKO a min HP Magnezone, and a max HP Tyranitar 66% of the time with Stealth Rock damage. In addition, if you can manage to activate Torrent, Hydro Pump will easily OHKO anything that does not resist it and is not named Blissey or Snorlax. Grass Knot takes care of Water-types, and Ice Beam deals with Celebi and the Dragon-types. Using Hidden Power Electric over Grass Knot is worth a shot if you fear being KOed by Gyarados or walled by Tentacruel, but be warned that it will leave you unable to OHKO Swampert (which can OHKO back with Earthquake) and the other bulky Water-types.</p>

<p>Since even an offensively-EVed Empoleon possesses useful resistances and some general bulk, Expert Belt or Mystic Water may be used instead of Life Orb if you do not wish to sacrifice 10% of Empoleon's HP every time it attacks. The former will give all three attacks a decent boost if they hit for super effective damage, while the latter boosts Empoleon's primary sweeping move against all foes. It should be noted that some sort of boosting item is required for a guaranteed OHKO on 4/0 Heatran with Surf.</p>

<p>This set does not have quite the raw power behind it that a fully set up Petaya Empoleon does, but it makes up for it with far greater coverage and the ability to sweep without sacrificing 75% of its health. Entry hazards are of even greater importance in supporting this set. Stealth Rock guarantees a chunk of damage on all opposing Pokémon, and Spikes can greatly wear down bulkier grounded Pokémon such as Tyranitar and Suicune into Empoleon's kill range. Also, the loss of Substitute means that this set is far more susceptible to crippling status than the Petaya set. If Empoleon gets paralyzed and you lack a cleric on your team, it will be little more than dead weight.</p>

<p>Celebi partners up excellently with this set for numerous reasons. Firstly, Celebi sports resistances to Ground, Fighting, and Electric, meaning it can come in on any super effective attack thrown Empoleon's way, and with Natural Cure, it doesn't mind taking Thunder Wave unduly. With its own Grass Knot, Celebi can weaken bulky Water-types and help Empoleon take them down, and by draining their high HP stats with Leech Seed, Celebi can deal with Blissey and Snorlax, who would otherwise stop Empoleon from sweeping.</p>


[SET]
name: Defensive Penguin
move 1: Surf
move 2: Grass Knot
move 3: Ice Beam / Stealth Rock
move 4: Roar / Yawn / Knock Off
item: Leftovers
nature: Calm
evs: 252 HP / 160 Def / 92 SpD / 4 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Empoleon's 12 resistances do not go to waste on this set, which capitalizes on taking hits from powerful attackers like Kingdra, Latias, non-Earthquake Gyarados, most Bulky Waters, Choice Specs Salamence, and resisted Choice item attacks.</p>

<p>Surf is for STAB and deters Ground-types and Heatran from switching into Empoleon. Grass Knot covers Water-types nicely, making Empoleon an effective counter to them. Ice Beam hits Salamence for a clean OHKO and covers Grass-types. However, Salamence without a super effective move on Empoleon is fairly uncommon, so if you have to, you can run Stealth Rock in slot three. Roar and Yawn are mainly to deal with stat boosting Kingdra and Earthquake-less Gyarados more effectively. Roar is usually better as both of them tend to carry Substitute. Both Roar and Yawn work well once you've set up Stealth Rock, as you can shuffle your opponent's team around and weaken it with the residual damage. Knock Off is a neat move to strip off Life Orbs or Choice items from threatening sweepers or even Leftovers from Blissey.</p>

<p>The EVs and nature are oriented toward Special Defense to better take hits from Water-types carrying Hidden Power Electric, as well as to play to Empoleon's natural specially defensive inclination. To fare better against Kingdra, 160 EVs are placed in Defense to guarantee survival against 2 Life Orb Outrages after one Dragon Dance and Stealth Rock damage. If one does not care about Dragon Dance Life Orb Kingdra, maxing Special Defense is recommended to better deal with Water-types and other special attackers. 4 Speed EVs are used to outrun Impish Swampert for the OHKO with Grass Knot, though it won't OHKO with Earthquake back anyway.</p>

<p>While Empoleon does boast a wide range of resistances, it is unfortunately weak to several common attacking types - Ground, Fighting, and Electric. As such, using Empoleon alongside a Gliscor or Rotom-A makes for a good synergic pairing, as they resist or are immune to each other's weaknesses. Since Empoleon doesn't like taking strong physical attacks, Gliscor and its high Defense stat can take a lot of the burden off Empoleon. Similarly, Rotom-A can use Will-O-Wisp to weaken physical attackers, allowing Empoleon to take them on with a lot more ease.</p>

<p>Because it lacks reliable recover of its own, giving Empoleon Wish support can greatly extend its durability and staying power. Unfortunately, several of the common Wish-passers share weaknesses with Empoleon and could struggle to get off a successful pass: Blissey is weak to Fighting, Jirachi to Ground, and Vaporeon to Electric. However, Latias works well with Empoleon (their typing compliments each other perfectly, covering every attacking type between themselves), and its Wishes can be used to keep Empoleon alive for a lot longer.</p>


[SET]
name: Swords Dance + Priority
move 1: Swords Dance
move 2: Aqua Jet
move 3: Drill Peck
move 4: Earthquake / Avalanche
item: Leftovers
nature: Adamant
evs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Extremely similar to Normal Arceus (but with a lot less power), this Empoleon is designed to switch in to one of the numerous attacks it resists and Swords Dance as the opponent switches out. Usually, the opponent switches to something like Blissey, thinking Empoleon is running a Special set. You can use the "surprise value" of Swords Dancing on the first switch to often get a second Swords Dance in, leaving Empoleon with a nice 894 Atttack to use Aqua Jet with.</p>

<p>This set tears through most of Empoleon's normal counters. Blissey is 2HKOed by Earthquake after a Swords Dance. Ludicolo, Heracross, and Breloom are all horribly hurt by Drill Peck, though the latter two you'd want to nail on the switch. Lanturn, Magnezone, and Tentacruel all fall to Earthquake. Dugtrio is destroyed with Aqua Jet, and Regice can't do enough damage with Thunderbolt to stop Empoleon from sweeping. 4 Speed EVs let you almost always outrun Swampert. If you Swords Dance on the switch, you 2HKO with Earthquake while it never OHKOes you with the same move.</p>

<p>The biggest threats to this set are faster Pokemon that aren't weak to Aqua Jet and can hit Empoleon back super effectively. Gyarados and Salamence in particular can shut this set down without too much difficulty. It is highly recommended that you have Stealth Rock support with this set, as it will really restrict the number of times Salamence and Gyarados can switch in on Empoleon. Having a reliable Pokemon to take Earthquakes isn't a bad idea either - Celebi once again makes a great partner to Empoleon. It counters Gyarados pretty well and won't be killed off by a single Outrage from Salamence either, while also dealing with slower, bulkier users of Earthquake such as Swampert. Thunder Wave from Celebi can really help Empoleon leave a mark on the opponent's team, as it has no way to boost its Speed on this set.</p>


[SET]
name: Choice Specs
move 1: Surf / Hydro Pump
move 2: Ice Beam
move 3: Grass Knot
move 4: Sleep Talk / Hidden Power Electric
item: Choice Specs
nature: Modest
evs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>With Empoleon's massive list of resistances and resistance to Stealth Rock, he finds plenty of opportunities to switch into battle. Combine that with his great Special Attack and you have a natural candidate for Choice Specs. Other than dedicated Special sponges, this set has very few safe switch-ins. Surf and Hydro Pump is the same "accuracy versus power" argument, though Hydro Pump does always OHKO Magnezone. Ice Beam and Grass Knot are standard issue moves to hit Grass-types and Dragon-types (Ice Beam) as well as Water-types (Grass Knot). </p>

<p>The fourth move is filler. Empoleon makes a great Sleep absorber, being able to come in on Roserade, Yanmega, and Bronzong fairly easily, so Sleep Talk may be useful to get off one hit while Asleep. Hidden Power Electric will OHKO Gyarados as opposed to Grass Knot's 2HKO, as well as do more damage to Tentacruel and Vaporeon.</p>

<p>Once again, getting paralysis onto the opposing team will make Empoleon's job a lot easier, as it won't have to continuously switch out of faster threats. Also, mispredicting and being locked into a move of the wrong type, e.g. Surf against Gyarados or Ice Beam against Lucario, could mean you have a threatening sweeper with a turn of set up under its belt to deal with. Having reliable checks on these set up sweepers is crucial when running Specs Empoleon, as it is with all Choice Pokemon. And while Empoleon's Special Defense is great, its physical Defense can only be called above average at best, and so having physically defensive Pokemon such as Celebi, Gliscor, Rotom-A, or a bulky EVed Salamence at hand is a great way of not losing momentum when a strong Earthquake or Close Combat user comes into play for the revenge kill.</p>


[Other Options]
<p>Empoleon doesn't have a great movepool; most of what it gets is either listed or not at all useful. Surf / Aqua Ring / Protect / Substitute is an okay combination of moves in theory to help stall something out in a manner similar to Walrein, but you need a free turn to set up Aqua Ring and while Empoleon is bulky, it's not quite bulky enough to virtually guarantee living through the one hit the set takes when setting up a Substitute.</p>

<p>One could elect to run a Choice Band set, but Empoleon doesn't have the offensive power to make it worthwhile. The Specs set will do more damage to virtually everything except Blissey.</p>

<p>Rest and Sleep Talk isn't a bad option, but Empoleon's weaknesses rarely leaves it in a position where it can afford to stall something, thus making it undesirable.</p>


[EVs]
<p>Both Agility sets are EV'd similarly. Max Special Attack with a Modest nature is obvious, and 232 Speed EVs puts Empoleon at 428 Speed after one Agility, enough to outrun Choice Scarf Jolly Medicham, Choice Scarf Modest Porygon-Z, and Choice Scarf Timid Heatran. The remaining 24 EVs are put into HP. The SubPetaya set puts 12 of the remaining EVs in HP to reach a number divisible by 4, then puts the rest in Defense.</p>

<p>The Support set is EV'd to always survive two Life Orb Kingdra Outrages after a Dragon Dance, at the cost of a small chance of being 2HKOed by Salamence's Choice Specs Fire Blast.</p>


[Team Options]
<p>Offensive Empoleon can be devastating in the right hands but really needs adequate team support for it to be successful. This does not need to be overly specific - getting a good amount of entry hazards down should normally be enough to ensure a successful sweep. Stealth Rock is helpful, as it is to all sweepers, but Toxic Spikes are especially valuable in beating Empoleon's common counters. After an Agility, the Petaya set in particular is fast enough and powerful enough to indiscriminately plow through other sweepers. So while it is true that Toxic Spikes won't be affecting your everyday Scizor and Salamence, it doesn't matter because Empoleon doesn't need too much more support taking them on. It is the bulkier Pokemon, such as Celebi, Vaporeon, Suicune, Blissey, and Snorlax, that Empoleon has trouble dealing with, and fortuitously they are all quite badly maimed by two layers of Toxic Spikes.</p>

<p>Getting the right Pokemon to lay them down is important as well - generally, going for either of Roserade or Forretress is a good choice. While Tentacruel's stat distribution and typing mean that it becomes quite similar to Empoleon, it remains one of the most reliable Toxic Spikers in the game, and since Agility Petaya Empoleon only comes out in the late game for a make or break sweep, the typing similarities should not pose much of a problem. Roserade is relatively fast and has a good Special Defense stat for coming into Electric attacks, and can get free switches by using Sleep Powder. Forretress, on the other hand, makes up for its lack of Speed by having excellent physical stopping power, and can get up two layers of Toxic Spikes and possibly even more entry hazards on a lot of offensively weak Pokemon.</p>

<p>Celebi has been mentioned several times, and for good reason. It intrinsically makes a great partner for Empoleon on behalf of their synergic typing, and with its ability to hit out at Empoleon's common switchins with Grass Knot and Leech Seed, can support it in more ways than one. In general, because of its low base 60 Speed stat, Empoleon will enjoy paralysis support regardless of what set it is running (unless this paralysis is on the likes of Suicune and Vaporeon, who Empoleon would much rather have badly poisoned). Thunder Wave lets Celebi give Empoleon just that, and can make dealing with Gyarados and Salamence much simpler.</p>


[Opinion]
<p>Empoleon is a very unique Pokémon that is consistently underestimated. As a defensive Pokémon, it has a lot of potential; Empoleon definitely has the defensive stats to exploit his 12 resistances, often walling entire move sets of Pokémon such as Kingdra. Offensively, it is a force to be reckoned with and unlike the majority of late game sweepers does not fear priority attacks from Scizor or Mamoswine at all. Overall, Empoleon is surprisingly versatile and an asset to almost any team.</p>


[Counters]
<p>The SubPetaya set is perfectly counterable, but it's generally very easy for the opponent to wear the threats that stop it down. Tentacruel is the best counter as it absorbs the Toxic Spikes commonly run with Empoleon and can take even Torrent boosted Surfs all day, though it needs HP Electric (or Rest / Sleep Talk) to win. Calm Blissey with Seismic Toss or Thunderbolt does well, but don't send it in right away unless there's no Toxic Spikes support. Vaporeon doesn't take enough from Grass Knot to be walled by Empoleon and can heal itself. Latias is weak to Ice Beam, but if Empoleon has not yet received its Petaya boost, Latias can begin to Calm Mind against it and take less than half its health from Ice Beam, allowing it to alternate between Recover and Calm Mind and set up. The fact that Latias is immune to Toxic Spikes and takes neutral damage from Stealth Rock compounds it as a threat. STAB Vacuum Wave or Mach Punch can keep Empoleon in check from the likes of Lucario and Hitmontop. Hitmontop also has good Special Defense and Triple Kick. Lanturn is a brilliant counter in the same manner as Vaporeon but with the benfit of a STAB Thunderbolt. Other than that, it depends mostly on the move Empoleon runs in the fourth slot; Celebi can take it on without Ice Beam and most Water-types can without Grass Knot.</p>

<p>The 3-attack Agility set has a lot less power, but better coverage, so your typical Special sponges in Blissey and Snorlax do just fine. All of the above counters still work, provided they aren't move-dependent. Tentacruel has to watch out for Hidden Power Electric though, which may 2HKO. The Specs set is largely the same, but can also be beaten by predicting "the wrong attack".</p>

<p>The Swords Dance set is oddly difficult to counter, actually. Cresselia takes little damage from it at all, but can't really do anything back to Empoleon. Skarmory and Bronzong don't really mind the set at all, though Skarmory can only phaze it away. Salamence and Gyarados both have Intimidate to weaken physical attacks as they switch in, resist Aqua Jet and are immune to Earthquake, while having strong Earthquakes of their own to hit Empoleon on its lower defensive stat. Defensive Pokémon that resist the non-STAB moves like the Rotom formes and Zapdos do fine too. The main problem is that there's not one good switch-in to both the Agility and the Swords Dance set.</p>
 
Just a quick inconsistency- it says in the EV section that the remaining EVs are put into Defense, but you put them in SpDef in the analysis. Wouldn't it make more sense to put those EVs into Def? You are very susceptible to priority moves at 25% HP (probably less, because of SR and taking a hit while you Agility etc) and no real defensive investment. Even with 4x resists, an extra 3 points of defense would be really helpful and you didn't really make it clear that the SpDef EVs were for anything specific.

Looks good though, I can't think of anything to really add or remove.
 
Good catch, thanks, and I agree. What with Scizor's CB Bullet Punch being able to do over 17%, those extra Defense EVs might save you if you switched into SR and subbed down. Moved them into Def on the set.

EDIT: Well, paranoid, the EVs are better there than anywhere else really.

LO Lucario ExtremeSpeed vs 12/0 Empoleon: 19.55 - 23.08%

Choice Band Scizor Quick Attack vs 12/0 Empoleon: 19.23 - 22.76%
 
Legacy raider, CBScizor does 16.99% max to 12/0 Empoleon so that plus SR damage is 23.24 so there is really no reason.


LO Lucario ExtremeSpeed vs 12/0 Empoleon: 19.55 - 23.08%

Choice Band Scizor Quick Attack vs 12/0 Empoleon: 19.23 - 22.76%
It still KOes after SR even with 12 Defense
 
Status (paralysis, sleep, etc.) is not capitalized.

<p>This set is almost unstoppable with the proper team support. Stealth Rock and 2 layers of Toxic Spikes is ideal, though the latter is optional if you can manage to lure out and KO Blissey and other Water-types. With Toxic Spikes in play, Empoleon can set up on (and beat) the standard Blissey and Vaporeon one-on-one by simply Substituting and watching them struggle to break Empoleon's Substitutes (assuming Blissey is without Seismic Toss) as the poison damage builds up. Stealth Rock will also help in weakening Grass-types like Celebi by putting them in the KO range of Ice Beam. Once you have set up these key entry hazards, there is only a small number of Pokémon that can stop Empoleon from a sweep.</p>

This is in the second paragraph of the Agility SubPetaya set.

"Super effective" is two words.
<p>Since even an offensively-EVed Empoleon possesses useful resistances and some general bulk, Expert Belt or Mystic Water may be used instead of Life Orb if you do not wish to sacrifice 10% of Empoleon's HP every time it attacks. The former will give all three attacks a decent boost if they hit for super effective damage, while the latter boosts Empoleon's primary sweeping move against all foes. It should be noted that some sort of boosting item is required for a guaranteed OHKO on 4/0 Heatran with Surf.</p>

Third paragraph of second set. thanks
 
A whole paragraph should be devoted to Toxic Spikes (and SR) support on the SubPetaya set.

Toxic Spikes sucks for most of OU, but the things it hits (Blissey, Vaporeon, Suicune, Milotic, Celebi) all are things that can beat Empoleon. Toxic Spikes are pretty much absolutely essential for an Empoleon sweep.

The Pursiuter is mostly for Scarf Gengar and all Latias, but it helps with Blissey too.

I think it makes sense to put the EVs in Defense, I only put them in Special Defense because... well I forget really.

Mention Latias in the Special Defensive Set comments as a reason to run max Special Defense.

Getting the right Pokemon to lay them down is important as well - generally, going for either of Roserade or Forretress is a good choice. Tentacruel's stat distribution and typing mean that it becomes too similar to Empoleon, and so if your opponent has a counter for Empoleon then they generally will be able to take down Tentacruel without trouble as well.
Absolutely not true. The two most notable Empoleon teams (Seven Deadly Sins and mine) both run Tentacruel. They share Electric and Ground weaknesses, but considering you're only showing Empoleon once to set up a sweep, you only need to worry about types within the 4 "core" Pokémon on an Empoleon team anyway.

Tentacruel switches in on Infernape just fine, Empoleon doesn't. It's also by far the most reliable Toxic Spiker in the game, so to discount it as an option because it has similar typing just isn't accurate at all. Whether or not Tentacruel is "countered" has nothing to do with what it does.

Empoleon's "counters" (celebi blissey vaporeon) are all set up fodder for Tentacruel. Tentacruel's revenge killers are outsped by Empoleon after an Agility.
 
Yeah, what Chris said. If you're using Empoleon, it is going to come out exactly ONCE in the game, and that's when you either win with it or your team goes to hell. The "shared weaknesses" are pointless when you consider that "counters" to Tentacruel tend to die horribly to Empoleon as well.
 
Updated with Chris' and SDS' suggestions. Are there any more comments, in particular about the team options section and the support paragraphs on each set?
 
Back
Top