DPP Dusknoir (Trick Room)

[Legacy Raider]

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/dusknoir

If Uxie, Slowbro, and Porygon2 can have a Trick Room set, then surely Dusknoir should have one of the few things it can do that Rotom / Spiritomb can't written up, instead of being Other Options.

[SET]
name: Trick Room
move 1: Trick Room
move 2: Will-O-Wisp
move 3: Pain Split
move 4: Shadow Sneak / Earthquake
item: Leftovers
nature: Relaxed
evs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
ivs: 0 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Trick Room sets Dusknoir apart from its bulky Ghost brethren, as neither Spritomb nor Rotom-A have access to it. Dusknoir is an excellent user of Trick Room, being both slow and possessing high defenses, and is a reliable choice for a supporter on a Trick Room team. The strategy is straightforward enough - simply come in on something that poses little threat to Dusknoir (bulky Fighting-types and most defensive Pokemon), set up Trick Room, and then switch out to a slow sweeper to abuse the three remaining turns of Trick Room.</p>

<p>Will-O-Wisp is a good move in general to have on a Trick Room team, as it not only cripples threatening attackers, but also weakens defensive Pokemon with its residual damage so that your sweepers can break past them. Tyranitar is also an extremely common switch into Dusknoir, and Will-O-Wisp allows you to slash its attacking power and reduce the threat it poses to your team. Pain Split provides Dusknoir with some instant, albeit unreliable, recovery, and if you choose your Pain Split targets carefully, Dusknoir should be able to stick around for quite a while and set up Trick Room multiple times.</p>

<p>There are many options that can go in the last slot. Shadow Sneak's priority is still sometimes useful in Trick Room and is definitely preferable to Shadow Punch outside of it, but you may feel you want the slightly higher base power for use in Trick Room conditions. Earthquake is a solid attacking move, and in particular hits any Heatran coming in to steal a Flash Fire boost from your Will-O-Wisp. It is recommended that you move 28 EVs from Defense into Attack if you choose to use Earthquake, as this guarantees an OHKO on a 4 HP Heatran with Stealth Rock. If you feel that Scizor, Salamence, or Gyarados are giving your team trouble, then you can use the appropriate elemental punch in that slot to help deal with them. While Pain Split is generally helpful, it isn't vital to the set, and another attacking move can easily be used in its place instead. Just beware, however, that Dusknoir will not last very long without any form of recovery, and may not be able to set up Trick Room more than once.</p>

<p>With a Relaxed nature and a Speed IV of 0, Dusknoir sits at a very slow 85 Speed, meaning it will outspeed the vast majority of opponents in Trick Room and can get some quick recovery with Pain Split.</p>

 

[Imran]

I'm wondering whether that is actually the best moveset, I mean it's kind of an all out supporter, but Trick Room teams are generally offensive. Maybe it's just me, but seeing as Dusknoir actually has offensive statistics (kinda) it might be worth putting them to better use, especially as he will be outspeeding a lot in Trick Room. For Example, you mention Pain Splitting after Trick Room, but that is a huge waste of your already limited time under it's effects.

If you plan to use Will-o-Wisp before Trick Rooming, first of all, you will be outsped and hit hard by the things you are trying to Will-o-Wisp (Tyranitar comes to mind,) and it could miss entirely, meaning that you now have a damaged Trick Roomer. If you plan to use Trick Room first (as you should, it is Dusknoir's main role), you should really be switching out straight after, or utilising the time more constructivly. I think we can safely say that "this sets job is to use Trick Room so your other Pokemon can gain an advantage" then the other moves are only really useful when you need Dusknoir to do a job on it's own. In this situation you have already lost (probably) but I think giving it something a bit more worthwhile than Will-o-Wisp would be better.

I would like to see the set look something like:

~ Trick Room
~ Shadow Sneak
~ Choice of Elemental Punch
~ Brick Break / Earthquake / Pain Split

I have listed Pain Split as a secondary option, simply because I don't see how a Trick Room team will have much use of it. Setting up Trick Room won't be done more than twice with an individual Trick Roomer, so it seems almost useless as Dusknoir can already take a hit. Brick Break will hit those Tyranitar switch ins, Earthquake does as well. We all know what each elemental punch does, although ThunderPunch probably is less useful (gyarados gets destroyed in Trick Room), so you could drop that all together. Shadow Sneak is for obvious use in and out of Trick Room. Hell, you could even stick a Life Orb on it to give it some bite. This comes from very limited experience of using Trick Room, but I really feel that at least Will-o-Wisp is almost dead weight on this set. Also I don't plan on this to sweep, just to have a little more utility in the times you will actually need to use the other moves (when Dusknoir is your only hope.)

 

[Legacy Raider]

You raise a good point, but the fact remains that Dusknoir's offenses are mediocre at best. Base 100 Atk isn't really anything to scoff at. You don't want to be wasting time trying to hit something with Shadow Sneak or an elemental punch when you have much more deadly Trick Room sweepers waiting in the wings. Say if Dusknoir had base 180 Speed - it still wouldn't be used primarily as a sweeper, really. But on the other hand, if Rhyperior had 180 Speed, you'd want to give it as long as you could to sweep.

If you wanted to use Trick Room and 3 attacking moves, it would only make sense to EV Dusknoir in offense. However, this would greatly detract from its defensive capabilities - even with max/max, Dusknoir isn't the bulkiest thing around. Having a reliable user of Trick Room is vital on these teams, and Dusknoir is one of the sturdier ones, so I feel that is really what it should be designed to do. Pain Split is only meant to be used when Dusknoir is really low on health, to possibly allow it one more switchin and one more Trick Room. Generally, when it has had to take a hit coming in the first time, another hit while setting up Trick Room, and yet another hit when it comes in to set up Trick Room for the second time, it will be pretty low on health. So getting that Pain Split off may only give you 3 turns of Trick Room this time around, but it will most likely mean Dusknoir can stick around long enough to get that one more Trick Room off later on in the game.

It is against stall teams that Trick Room teams have the most trouble. Against a team of defensive pokemon, Dusknoir's really not going to be hurting much with Shadow Sneak / Brick Break. On the other hand, Pain Split against a Blissey will not only give Dusknoir the equivalent of a free Rest, it will also force Blissey to use Softboiled, giving your sweeper a free switchin. I agree, against offensive teams Pain Split might not be much use, but generally, Trick Room teams steamroll other offensive teams. Even against offensive teams, I doubt an offensive Dusknoir will leave much of a mark. Will-O-Wisp, on the other hand, will mean that things like Scizor don't Bullet Punch your sweepers into nothingness, and so is more useful against them.

If more people think an offensive Dusknoir would be of greater use, though, I'm more than willing to change things about.

 

[Caelum]

I'll comment back later about the offensive versus defensive bit since I'm not certain at the moment but if I were to run this defensively with Earthquake I'd bump the Attack up to 243 (28 Attack EVs) which guarantees an OHKO on 324 HP / 248 Def (4 HP / 0 Def) Heatran with Earthquake if it takes Stealth Rock damage. Heatran is usually a very good switch-in to Dusknoir so if you TR as it switches into Stealth Rock, you mine as well just "outrun it" and OHKO. You can mention that in the set comments since I believe your intention is to have Shadow Sneak as the primary option and (to my knowledge at least) the additional Attack doesn't achieve any notable KOs with Shadow Sneak.

 

[Legacy Raider]

Done, thanks Caelum.

 

[Malfunction]

Um, something quick. In the first paragraph, last sentence, you said that you set up trick room, switch to your sweeper, and then enjoy four turns of Trick Room. Shouldn't they be three? The turn you setup Trick Room (1), the turn you switch(2), and then the three turns left for you to sweep(5). At least that's what shoddy does..

 

[cim]

You shouldn't be using TR Dusknoir because "it sets it apart from other ghosts" so just remove that line entirely, or say that Dusknoir is the only remotely good Ghost that can use TR.

Will-o-wisp is basically entirely for Tyranitar which has a nasty habit of doing ton of damage to most TR inducers, he should be emphasized.

Pain Split isn't manadatory; you can basically juggle any elemental punch in the last two slots depending on what you care to hit.

Anyhow this should be added as it's one of the best reasons to use Dusknoir IMO.

 

[twash]

Um, something quick. In the first paragraph, last sentence, you said that you set up trick room, switch to your sweeper, and then enjoy four turns of Trick Room. Shouldn't they be three? The turn you setup Trick Room (1), the turn you switch(2), and then the three turns left for you to sweep(5). At least that's what shoddy does..

This is correct, so that needs changing! Good writeup.

 

[Legacy Raider]

Um, something quick. In the first paragraph, last sentence, you said that you set up trick room, switch to your sweeper, and then enjoy four turns of Trick Room. Shouldn't they be three? The turn you setup Trick Room (1), the turn you switch(2), and then the three turns left for you to sweep(5). At least that's what shoddy does..

Yep, you're right. Thanks for picking that up.

You shouldn't be using TR Dusknoir because "it sets it apart from other ghosts" so just remove that line entirely, or say that Dusknoir is the only remotely good Ghost that can use TR.

Will-o-wisp is basically entirely for Tyranitar which has a nasty habit of doing ton of damage to most TR inducers, he should be emphasized.

Pain Split isn't manadatory; you can basically juggle any elemental punch in the last two slots depending on what you care to hit.

Anyhow this should be added as it's one of the best reasons to use Dusknoir IMO.

You misunderstand me - I'm emphasising the fact that this is something that Dusknoir can do that Rotom and Spiritomb can't, as they are usually considered superior to him in most other aspects. It doesn't affect the decision to use TR Dusknoir over something else like a TR Slowbro.

I've added a sentence outlining the threat of Tyranitar and how Will-O-Wisp is pretty essential in taking it on. I've also addressed your concern about Pain Split. Thanks for the suggestions.

This is correct, so that needs changing! Good writeup.

Changed, thanks.

 

[Colloquy]

<p>Trick Room sets Dusknoir apart from its bulky Ghost brethren, as neither Spritomb nor Rotom-A have access to it. Dusknoir is an excellent user of Trick Room, being both slow and possessing high defenses, and is a reliable choice for a supporter on a Trick Room team. The strategy is straightforward enough - simply come in on something that poses little threat to Dusknoir (bulky Fighting-types and most defensive Pokemon), set up Trick Room, and then switch out to a slow sweeper to abuse the three remaining turns of Trick Room.</p>

<p>Will-O-Wisp is a good move in general to have on a Trick Room team, as it not only cripples threatening attackers, but also weakens defensive Pokemon with its residual damage so that your sweepers can break past them. Tyranitar is also an extremely common switch (remove 'in') into Dusknoir, and Will-O-Wisp allows you to slash its attacking power and reduce the threat it poses to your team. Pain Split provides Dusknoir with some instant, albeit unreliable, recovery, and if you choose your Pain Split targets carefully, Dusknoir should be able to stick around for quite a while and set up Trick Room multiple times.</p>

All I saw, I thought this was well-written.

 

[Legacy Raider]

Changed, thanks Katherine.

 

[cim]

You misunderstand me - I'm emphasising the fact that this is something that Dusknoir can do that Rotom and Spiritomb can't, as they are usually considered superior to him in most other aspects. It doesn't affect the decision to use TR Dusknoir over something else like a TR Slowbro.

The point of an analysis shouldn't be "Oh man I want to use Dusknoir, how can I do that without being outclassed?", it should be "What viable sets does Dusknoir run?"

Other than that it's a good set. I'd make Earthquake standard to hit Tyranitar (and you might as well hit Heatran).

 

[Imran]

Chris, I can easily make the argument that a set is not "viable" if it is completely outclassed by another Pokemon.

EDIT: That was dumb, I read your post the wrong way round, and simply ended up agreeing with you, sorry ._.

 

[cim]

I agree with that too. i'm just saying that analyses should be "The complete list of Dusknoir's competitive, non-outclassed sets" rather than "reasons to use this pokemon over others". This is kind of a trivial argument though so whatever.