DP Milotic

RaikouLover

is a Contributor Alumnus
http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/milotic

OK, revamping this. The opinion, counters, and EV sections are actually fine since there is no mention of Garchomp but the first few sets needed a redo.

[SET]
name: Support
move 1: Hypnosis / Toxic / Light Screen
move 2: Recover
move 3: Surf
move 4: Ice Beam / Hidden Power Electric
item: Leftovers
nature: Bold
evs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA

[SET COMMENTS]

<p> Solid defensive stats and access to recover make Milotic a good support pokemon. Use Hypnosis to sleep a counter, Toxic to spread residual poison damage, or Light Screen to help the team take special hits.</p>

<p> For type coverage, you've got Ice Beam or Hidden Power Electric. Ice Beam will deal with Dragons, and will OHKO most Salamence. HP Electric does make Milotic a good counter for Gyarados, as a +1 Life Orb Stone Edge or Earthquake will very rarely 2HKO Milotic. It won't really hurt most other Water-types, like Suicune and Vaporeon, and even Starmie only has a slim chance of being 2HKOed if Sandstorm is up.</p>

[SET]
name: Special Wall
move 1: Light Screen
move 2: Recover
move 3: Surf
move 4: Toxic / Hypnosis
item: Leftovers
nature: Calm
evs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD

[SET COMMENTS]

<p> Milotic's impressive Special Defense and useful resistances to Water, Fire, and Ice make it a good candidate for a special wall. However, Light Screen is needed to help Milotic stop some of the more dangerous special special attackers before attempting to stall them out with Toxic or incapacitate them with Hypnosis. </p>

[SET]
name: Rest + Sleep Talk
move 1: Surf
move 2: Toxic / Ice Beam
move 3: Rest
move 4: Sleep Talk
item: Leftovers
nature: Bold
evs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD

[SET COMMENTS]

<p> Sleep Talk Milotic is a very sturdy tank. With Rest activating Marvel Scale, her Defense gets boosted to allow her to take most physical hits with relative ease, Toxic is worth considering to wear down the likes of Vaporeon, Gyarados, (you'll have to catch it on the switch to avoid Taunt) and non-Resting Suicune. Ice Beam will keep the Dragons at bay while sleeping. </p>

[SET]
name: Choice
move 1: Hydro Pump
move 2: Ice Beam
move 3: Hidden Power Electric
move 4: Dragon Pulse / Surf / Hypnosis
item: Choice Specs / Choice Scarf
nature: Timid / Modest
evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p> This set takes a more offensive approach with Milotic by focusing on her awesome type coverage and solid base 100 Special Attack. Hydro Pump is the main attack here, as Water is a potent attack type and will score a surprising amount of OHKOs with Choice Specs. Ice Beam smacks around Celebi and Zapdos for 2HKOs, and Hidden Power Electric will do good damage to most Water pokemon while OHKOing Gyarados. The final slot has several decent options: Dragon Pulse for Kingdra and more neutrality, Surf for more reliability, or Hypnosis to incapacitate a possible counter.</p>

<p> If you are using Choice Scarf, Timid nature is preferred for surprise factor, and to outspeed Dragon Dancing Gyarados, Kingdra, and some Salamence while you finish them off with the appropriate move. Hypnosis has more merit on the Scarfer, as a quick sleep can secure a potential threat.</p>

<p> Although Milotic is losing a significant amount of her defensive capabilities, she gains a surprising boost with the additional Speed. With a Timid nature, Milotic will outspeed Adamant Lucario, Mamoswine, Dragonite, and the large amount of Zapdos and Celebi that do not invest many EVs into Speed. Though her physical durability is limited, Milotic still can take hits from most special attackers even with no investment.</p>

-----------

So, I actually wanted to get your guys opinion on the Special Wall set. I actually think 252 HP / 36 Spe / 220 SpD is a better spread, since you outspeed Magnezone's trying to outspeed Metagross while you put a Light Screen in front of them, turning Thunderbolt into a 4HKO. Any thoughts?
 
Choiced status moves are usually pretty bad...I would recommend adding Dragon Pulse as the main option with Recover and Hypnosis as slashes on the fourth moveslot. Dragon Pulse actually makes it a decent Kingdra switch-in.

move 4: Dragon Pulse / Hypnosis / Recover

Also making a note that Milotic's analysis is going to have to be updated at some point in the future...there are references to Hypnosis' improved D/P accuracy (which was shaved back in Platinum) and many calcs against the now Uber Garchomp.
 
good idea. Surf actually could be a fourth option also. I've found times where I didn't need the extra power but wanted the accuracy as well. I have Dragon Pulse on my in-game Milotic but that's just because I don't have HP Electric. I mean I'd rather have something else then a move that only hits one pokemon.

Are you going to be undertaking the Milotic revamp project? I suppose we could just work on all the new EV spreads here.
 
I was going to say Dragon Pulse is only for Kingdra but it looks like more and more it threatens to sweep people. Dragon Pulse / Surf / Hypnosis IMO
 
I've been playing with this for today (I hope you've play tested it longer then one day just watching Justinawe but anyway). I was skeptical, but I like to give every set a shot and set aside my first impressions. However, unfortunately, my first impressions seemed to prove correct in most cases. This set didn't see to do it for me. What this appears to me to be is a midpoint between Choice Specs Vaporeon and Choice Specs Starmie. You are trying to get the Speed of Choice Specs Starmie, while maintaining the bulk of Choice Specs Vaporeon; and you end up with something that doesn't do either role particularly well. Part of Milotic's selling points (to me at least), is that it's defensively decent and can hit reasonably hard. This set throws out it's defenses (and Vaporeon has that cool ability to come in on Surf's to heal itself) in exchange for some Speed and Special Attack. When using it, I never found the trade off worth it

Conclusion? Yeah, it works, but I just can't see a time where I would ever be building a team and think that Choice Milotic is going to help me.

More then likely I'm in the minority so feel free to ignore, but I just feel like Milotic has much better things to be doing then bothering with a Choice Specs set, especially one that isn't even defensively oriented. At least Choice Specs Vaporeon plays on its defensive abilities with its EV spread. Maybe if this were tweaked for a bit more defensive capabilities I could see some use, but as the current EV spread stands I can't imagine where this Milotic would be the Milotic of choice.


Random Side Notes:

1- The higher Speed doesn't seem that important to me since Vaporeon is already raping things like Zapdos & Celebi on the switch in and with a small (very, very small) amount of residual damage they are OHKO'd anyway, but that is beside the point. Vaporeon could also run an identical set with Speed EVs and outrun many Celebi and Zapdos as well. Again, beside the point though.

2- The EV spread is ridiculously easy to change, I'm not sure what there is to discuss. Why not just change it to OHKO standard DD Mence since that is the next biggest thread Milotic should be taking on anyway.
 
To be honest I have used both Choice Specs and Choice Scarf Milotic successfully, and most significantly, differently.

I'm not sure if people will want a splitting of the items, but note they do play somewhat differently.
 
Did you run a basic 4 / 252 / 252 or did you invest in defense Aldaron, because I found myself struggling to switch this in on anyone but Heatran :/.
 
Personally if I were to run Modest I would probably use 72 HP / 252 SpA / 184 Spe. Basically, it allows you to outspeed Jolly Tyranitar, as well as never being OHKOd by a Choice Band Crunch (76.79% - 90.54% from Adamant versions), which also means Sandstream won't KO you. You also do 88.12% - 104.46% back with Hydro Pump, provided TTar runs 252 HP / 4 SpD. If you have Stealth Rock up, it's a guarunteed OHKO. Also, if you don't and Tyranitar Crunches and is Life Orbed, you outspeed and have a damn good chance to OHKO. Of course, if it hits that is.
 
Maybe if this were tweaked for a bit more defensive capabilities I could see some use, but as the current EV spread stands I can't imagine where this Milotic would be the Milotic of choice.


Random Side Notes:

1- The higher Speed doesn't seem that important to me since Vaporeon is already raping things like Zapdos & Celebi on the switch in and with a small (very, very small) amount of residual damage they are OHKO'd anyway, but that is beside the point. Vaporeon could also run an identical set with Speed EVs and outrun many Celebi and Zapdos as well. Again, beside the point though.

2- The EV spread is ridiculously easy to change, I'm not sure what there is to discuss. Why not just change it to OHKO standard DD Mence since that is the next biggest thread Milotic should be taking on anyway.
Click to expand...

Ice Beam from either spread will easily OHKO DD Mence if its ever foolish enough to switch in. But with Outrage and Life Orb on every DD Mence now, no version of Milotic is going to stand a chance.

I don't particularly need to see the need for this thing to take an astounding amount of hits since its job is to dish them out, as with nearly every choice user.

Did you run a basic 4 / 252 / 252 or did you invest in defense Aldaron, because I found myself struggling to switch this in on anyone but Heatran :/.
Click to expand...

It's not difficult to switch this thing in. Surfs and Ice Beams are absolutely everywhere. And you can switch this thing on a few common set-up pokemon when they get greedy (Scizor and Lucario to name a couple). Besides, I don't think a few defense EVs will allow it to switch in on any more than it already can (what are you trying to switch in on?).

Conclusion? Yeah, it works, but I just can't see a time where I would ever be building a team and think that Choice Milotic is going to help me.
Click to expand...

That is kind of the point of an analysis. Providing many different ways to use a certain pokemon. Milotic has the stats and movepool to sport a choice item effectively. Yes, it may have "better" or more conventional roles but it can do the job good enough to warrant a spot on a team.

For the record, my first level 100 D/P Pokemon is a Modest, 31 IV Choice Specs Milotic... and it rapes.
 
Might want to mention something on the analysis about why use this over Starmie (if running a fast spread) and why use this over Vaporeon (if running a defensive slow spread).

I honestly can't see a reason for both cases, except maybe the pursuit weak on Starmie (but Milotic takes about 80% from CBTar Pursuit anyway).
 
RaikouLover said:
<p> This set takes a more offensive approach with Milotic by focusing on her awesome type coverage and solid base 100 Special Attack. Hydro Pump is the main attack here, as Water is a potent attack type and will score a surprising amount of OHKOs with Choice Specs. Ice Beam smacks around Celebi and Zapdos for 2HKOs, and Hidden Power Electric will do good damage to most Water pokemon while OHKOing Gyarados. The final slot has several decent options: Dragon Pulse for Kingdra and more neutrality, Surf for more reliability, or Hypnosis to incapacitate a possible counter.</p>

<p> Although Milotic is losing a significant amount of her defensive capabilities, she gains a surprising boost with the additional Speed. With a Timid nature, Milotic will outspeed Adamant Lucario, Mamoswine, Dragonite, and the large amount of Zapdos and Celebi that do not invest many EVs into Speed. Though her physical durability takes a hit, Milotic still can take a hit from most special attackers even with no investment. (It can only take 1 hit? If it can take more than 1 special hit, then please change your final sentence. You don't want to be turning people off of the set by saying something that's not true. After all, the charm behind a Specs Milotic is that it can take several special hits while dishing out tons of damage in return!)</p>
Click to expand...

Yeah, I made some nitpicks on your grammar and such. I'd recommend changing your last sentence. Maybe say that it can still take several special hits with ease, even with no investment?
 
I don't like the repetition in the last sentence. Take Bologo's changes and modify the sentence so it states something like, 'Though her physical durability is lessened, she can still take hits from most special attackers even without additional Special Defense', imo...
 
After making some of Bologo's changes could you throw in these two somewhere?

When you are talking about a Timid nature, can you note that a Timid w/ a Choice Scarf is almost always going to outrun once DD'd Gyara (I mean almost 80% are Adamant so this is safe to say, and if Jolly usually don't run maximum Speed). Also, with a Timid Scarf you are going to outrun many once DD'd Salamence as well (some run max speed but a good amount run 176 Speed EVs to just to beat Timid Scarf Heatran). Those two factors would seem like a major selling points to this set, since this is going to be a surprise (especially if Scarfed) anyway.

Now, in the Set Comments, can you please emphasize that Dragon Pulse should be the primary option if you choose to use Choice Scarf in the last slot. With Choice Specs Kingdra is 2HKO'd by Ice Beam (assuming we aren't talking about a defense spread) anyway with Stealth Rock whereas if you opt for Choice Scarf, Kingdra will be a 3HKO. Dragon Pulse 2HKOs with Scarf so it should be the superior option if you opt for Choice Scarf in my opinion. Would you mind throwing in small comments about that.

Anyway, if I'm not mistaken the consensus (excluding me heh) seems to be that this is a go? I'll leave this up for a few more days to give Raikoulover the opportunity to make some of the changes I suggested (if he wants to) and wait for some more comments. If nothing comes along I'll load this to SCMS.
 
I made the grammatical changes. However, Caelum, before adding this, do you think I should make Choice Specs and Choice Scarf different sets? They do play very differently, however they carry the same moves. Any suggestions on how to fix the wording to explain the difference?

Also, the entire Milotic really does need a revamp since every set is geared towards Garchomp. I could just go ahead and do all of that while simultaneously adding these.
 
RaikouLover said:
I made the grammatical changes. However, Caelum, before adding this, do you think I should make Choice Specs and Choice Scarf different sets? They do play very differently, however they carry the same moves. Any suggestions on how to fix the wording to explain the difference?

If they play very differently, yes you should, or at least I think you should. It's more of an issue of order to me. If they play differently the descriptions could get messy when all bunched together. I think you current description adequately describes the function of the Choice Specs set. Choice Scarf Milotic is going to function as a surprise revenge killer. You can talk about the usefulness of that either as a separate paragraph in the current set or you can make a different set with its revenge killing capabilities.

Also, the entire Milotic really does need a revamp since every set is geared towards Garchomp. I could just go ahead and do all of that while simultaneously adding these.

If you want go for it. It's mostly just the EVs that need modifying and then modify the sentences accordingly. I think you should determine what exactly you want Milotic to take on. Some quick thoughts that I can think of is that it is never 2HKO'd by LO Gyara, not OHKO'd by DD Mence Outrage (non life orb versions), maybe inable it to take on LO Mamo? I might work out an EV spread later and post back (you can work on one too and we'll decide which one is better / modify one anothers accordingly).
Click to expand...

Edit: Using this just so I remember some first initial calcs

Milotic
Spread: Bold, 252 HP / 236 Def / 20 SpA
Stats: 394 HP / 278 Def / 241 SpA / 286 SpD

Mamoswine (Adamant 4 HP / 252 Atk; 362 HP / 394 Atk / 156 SpD)

394 Life Orb Earthquake vs. 394 HP / 278 Def: 199 - 235 (50% - 59%)
241 Surf vs. 362 HP / 196 SpD, 318 - 374 (87% - 103%,OHKO w/ SR)

Gyarados: (Adamant 72 HP / 252 Atk ; 349 HP / 383 Atk / 236 SpD)

+1, 383 Life Orb Earthquake / Stone Edge vs. 394 HP / 278 Def: 192 - 227 (48% - 57% )
241 HP Electric vs. 349 HP / 236 SpD: 208 - 248 (59% - 71% , OHKO w/ SR & LO Recoil)

Metagross: (Adamant, 252 HP / 252 Atk ; 364 HP / 405 Atk / 216 SpD)
405 Choice Band Earthquake vs. 394 HP / 278 Def: 157 - 185 (39% - 46%)
241 Surf vs. 364 HP / 216 SpD : 115 - 136 (31% - 37%)
 
Ok, I'm going to add those EV changes. Anyway, I added changes to the existing sets. However, the EV, opinion, and counters are completely fine.
 
I'm not sure why you're trying to re-write the edits for every set. The Milotic analysis is fine except for the things I pointed out earlier. If you have an EV spread change suggestion, just post about that. Nothing in the analysis needs to be removed or changed, other than your proposed EV spread and adding the Choice set.
 
Fair enough. But the Sleep inducer set does need a mention with Toxic and Light Screen as options. The first and second sets are identical except for that minor difference so I think they should be combined. A Special Wall does deserve a set because it is an entirely different EV spread and concentrates on stalling out with Toxic against special sweepers. Despite the discussion earlier, Light Screen + a Calm nature will make Milotic a sturdy special wall. The RestTalk set is fine the way it is.
 
Well, the numerous references to Garchomp and the EVs needed to OHKO him needed to be changed, no? Or was this updated when I wasn't looking?
 
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