Doubles XY Metagame Speculation (obviously spoilers)

nyttyn

nyttyn

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Since we have a lot of info on XY already, a general metagame thread to both speculate and report results from preliminary testing seems only logical.

Serebii has a list of confirmed news here

Relevant to doubles:

  • Permaweather nerfed to 5 turns, 8 with weather rocks
  • Blizzard nerf (to 110 BP)
  • Pledge Buff (to 80 BP)
  • Surf Nerf (to 90 BP)
  • Muddy Water Nerf (to 90 BP)
  • Heat Wave Nerf (to 95 BP)
  • Electrify. Turns the target's move into an electric type for that turn.
  • Crafty Shield. Wide/Quick/etc Guard, but for Status moves.
  • Aromic Mist - raises SpDef for ally
  • Forest's Curse - turns enemy into grass type.
  • Trick-or-treat - adds ghost to target's type
  • Parabolic Charge - 50 BP Discharge the heals user for 50% of damage.
  • Boomburst - 140 BP (!!!!) 100 accuracy Normal type special attack that attacks all but user
  • Magnetic Flux - Raises ally's def and spdef if they have plus or minus as an ability.
  • Petal Blizard - 90 BP grass, attacks everyone except user (sap sipper much)
  • Grassy Terrain - gives leftovers to all pokemon (essentially) for 5 turns.
  • Rototiller - increases atk/spatk of all grass types
  • Sticky Shield - Protect that also damages contact move users
  • Venom Drench - hits both enemies, lowers atk, spatk, AND speed if they're poisoned. Toxic Spikes synergy?
  • Mat Block - protects all allies from all damaging moves (!!) but not status moves. It has 0 priority and can only be used on the First Turn (like Fake Out). It does not stack up with other Protect moves, which do have priority.
  • Faiiiries! A really good typing for doubles, honestly - steel and poison types aren't huge (at least they weren't in BW2), and has damn good neutral coverage.
  • Klefki got dat prankster for supporting
  • Mega Obamasnow
  • Sticky Web, possibly the only doubles relevant hazard (gives -1 spe to enemies)
  • Mega Tyranitar
  • Mega Charizard Y (drought)
  • Mega Manectric (intimidate ho!)
  • Mega Garchomp
  • Mega Banette (prankster)
  • Aromatisse (healr viable finally??)
  • Xerneas / Yveltal (Dark/Fairy Aura)
ok so just don't instantly bandwagon anyting for ubers. even xerneas/yveltal. for all we know they could very well be not.

discuss.




Pwne edit: this thread has served its purpose since XY have been out for like three months, locking.
 
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Hawlucha Flying/Fighting with that dual type attack.

Talonflame and Helioisk are base 130 speed.

Greninja is Water/Dark with base 120 speed. Maybe a new Rain Team Cresselia check?
 
The permaweather nerf probably won't effect Doubles as much as singles, 5 turns is a fair amount of time in Doubles and 8 turns is even longer.

String Shot now decreases speed by two stages, an alternative to Icy Wind? Better speed control in exchange for not doing damage and being vulnerable to Taunt.
 
Steel is pretty much the new most amazing type. We've got fairies who will be used to stop dragons, dragons because their stats are crazy, and then steels which kick both of their butts. Venom drench teams (I can definitely see them) would not be as much of a problem with a steel type to swiftly kick their butts too. In other news, telepathy is super amazing with all the new spread moves. I could see choice scarf boomboxer with a helping hand gardevoir, musharna, or a ghost type.
Otherwise, we could possibly have a lightningrod pokemon with an electrifyer partner as a thing.
Forest's curse vs spore shenanigans? I dunno.
There's just so much to talk about O.O

Pata Hikari, I would still prefer icy wind because
  1. It is usually a supporter's only option after taunt
  2. It breaks sashes and yache berries
  3. Bug types are too frail
 
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nyttyn said:
  • Faiiiries! A really good typing for doubles, honestly - steel and poison types aren't huge (at least they weren't in BW2), and has damn good neutral coverage.
Click to expand...
The Steel-type has been and definitely will remain a very important type for a team to have in Doubles. With Fairy-types on the rise, I can easily see common threats like Heatran (4x resist to the Fairy-type btw), Metagross, and Scizor becoming even more common. Aegislash will probably also see some heavy usage, thanks to that awesome typing alongside King's Shield.

That said, Fairies will definitely have a huge effect on the metagame (outside of making Steel-types more or less mandatory). There will definitely be a drop in usage of Dragons, given that very few of them possess Steel- and Poison-type coverage, which if used would still leave them vulnerable to Steel-types. Hydreigon, Kyurem(-B), Lati@s, Hydreigon, Garchomp, and others are going to drop in usage by a fair bit at least (probably a lot more than that). Dark-types and Fighting-types will also be held down in usage by them somewhat, though since they still do damage it will be less extreme. Bug-types probably won't be as severely affected, generally since the most common ones (Volcarona and Scizor) can work around Fairy-types pretty easily. Some less common Bugs like Heracross will definitely be hindered, though. Poison-types might see some mild redemption, though not much. Sludge Wave might see some usage on things to help work around Fairy-types, however.

Some things that nyttyn missed are new type-chart immunities, namely:
  • Grass-types immune to Spore, Stun Spore, Sleep Powder, etc
  • Electric-types immune to paralysis
  • Ghost-types immune to trapping (This may be relevant due to MegaGengar)
This has a pretty huge effect as well, mostly a lowered usage of Thunder Wave spam, and Thundurus in general (though it is granted a nifty paralysis immunity in return, I suppose). Rotom-Mow will see some redemption, being a great status absorber (since sleep and paralysis are generally regarded as the most common status afflictions in Doubles). Spore is already heavily limited due to Sleep Clause, but having a safe switch in would always be nice, so Grass-types might see some redemption in general (also say goodbye to Lum Berry Amoonguss, if you ever used it in the first place). Not really much to add on to this, so...
 
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I'm wondering how good Sticky Web will be. On one hand, it's a pretty amazing speed control tool. Free speed drops are really useful. That plus Icy Wind will mean that things are about to get slow. However, Trick Room doesn't care about Sticky Web much for obvious reasons. Another thing to note about Sticky Web is abilities such as Clear Body, Defiant, and the new Competitive. Metagross loves Sticky Web, as even if the opponent puts them down it isn't affected by it. This means that Metagross is going to seem much faster than it really is if you get up your web. Meanwhile, Defiant and Competitive grant the user a free +2 in their offensive stat for free if the opponent got their web up. Bisharp is interesting as it wasn't very fast to begin with, so it doesn't mind the speed drop too much. From what I can tell, pokemon with Competitive aren't that great (Wigglytuff and Gothitelle so far). Hopefully something got missed or something. Gothitelle will be pretty neat though, and I guess Wigglytuff isn't fast to begin with AND has a neat Normal / Fairy typing.

Talonflame has Gale Wings, which gives it priority on Flying-type moves. So pretty much it has prankster Tailwind while also having priority flying STAB. Could be cool, but otherwise Prankster Tailwind seems better. Flower Veil could be useful, as Florges looks like it's decent, and would prevent Grass-types from losing their speed from Sticky Web (I think?) and attack from Intimidate.

XY Doubles is going to be interesting, especially with the Fairy-type and all.

EDIT: Oh shit, Rotom-Mow is going to be so cool in doubles. Immunity to Paralysis and (mostly) Sleep. Too bad it's best Grass STAB is Leaf Storm, but whatever.
 
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Seeing all these changes, I think we might as well just forget everything we know about gen 5 Doubles, and just start from a completely clean slate as an individual, considering how EVERYTHING CHANGED :0

btw, Mat Block is stupidly over powered, no doubt; can we suspect individual moves?
 
Serebii said:
Weakness Policy: An item to be held by a Pokemon. Attack and Sp. Atk sharply increase if the holder is hit with a move it's weak to.
Click to expand...
I think this could be the coolest item in XY Doubles. It allows for some really cool strategies, like this one with Keldeo and Tyrantiar.

252 SpA Keldeo Surf vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in sand: 152-182 (44.44 - 53.21%) -- 30.08% chance to 2HKO
which leads to this:
+2 252 Atk Tyranitar Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 338-402 (76.12 - 90.54%) -- guaranteed OHKO combined with Surf

or, with Thundurus-T and Slowking.

252 SpA Thundurus-T Discharge vs. 252 HP / 192 SpD Slowking: 164-194 (41.62 - 49.23%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Which leads to this:
With Leftovers:
+2 64+ SpA Slowking Surf vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 432-510 (113.08 - 133.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 64+ SpA Slowking Surf vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Volcarona: 342-404 (109.96 - 129.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 64+ SpA Slowking Surf vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Heatran: 338-402 (104.64 - 124.45%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 64+ SpA Slowking Surf vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Terrakion: 390-462 (120.37 - 142.59%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 64+ SpA Slowking Surf vs. 0 HP / 8 SpD Scizor: 214-253 (76.15 - 90.03%) -- guaranteed OHKO factoring in Discharge

With Life Orb:
+2 64+ SpA Life Orb Slowking Surf vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in sand: 307-367 (89.76 - 107.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO factoring in Discharge
+2 64+ SpA Life Orb Slowking Surf vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ninetales in sun: 234-276 (81.53 - 96.16%) -- guaranteed OHKO factoring in Discharge
+2 64+ SpA Life Orb Slowking Surf vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Togekiss: 208-246 (55.76 - 65.95%) -- guaranteed OHKO factoring in Discharge

And that's not even mentioning all of the OHKOs you can net with Fire Blast, Ice Beam and Psyshock.
P.S. All of these statistics factor in the decrease in damage from moves with multiple targets.

It's definitely high-risk, high-reward, but I think it can pay off more successfully than tactics like Storm Drain + Water Absorb Surf shenanigans. Thoughts?
 
Laga said:
Seeing all these changes, I think we might as well just forget everything we know about gen 5 Doubles, and just start from a completely clean slate as an individual, considering how EVERYTHING CHANGED :0

btw, Mat Block is stupidly over powered, no doubt; can we suspect individual moves?
Click to expand...

I suspect Mat Block will be very limited in Distribution, considering the flavor I bet only Ninja like Pokemon (So Ninjask, Accelgor, Greninja) will get it. So basically if you see those Pokemon, get ready for some double protects.
 
ok some cool things about gen 6 thusfar. main megaevos i think will be cool are megagengar and megakanga, particularly kanga because of the potential interaction w/ fake out and such (fake out + sub or protect or an attack or somethin would be pretty cool). other megas will be cool as well though. am thinkin scizor and heatran will be great because of the buff steel types get (subtran to wreck another gen y/n). mat block will be cool if it works as it seems to but ps has it implemented wierdly right now (or there was a bug in my game). wont be as good as you might think though since you can still play around it with nondamaging moves like t-wave or substitute or something. anyways will likely have more fully formed thoughts later, just was posting to share a replay of my game v laga and decided to say a few things as well
me vs laga
me vs nyttyn
 
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Mega Mawile @ Steel Gem SMH. Like Audiosurfer, I am excited for Kangaskhan. As its regular form, it can Fake Out Ghost-types via Scrappy, but otherwise it can mega evolve for an upgraded 100 bp priority move! Thanks to its high base HP, it can actually effectively use its boosted defenses, too. Power Up Punch is a decent coverage move on Kangaskhan imo, since the second attack is boosted by a +1 Atk, essentially giving Kangaskhan an 80 bp Fighting move.

I guess with Fairies being a thing now, we would see less Draco Meteor spam ;o. Togekiss is one of the most notable Fairy-type. This means it gains a Dark- and Fighting-type resistance on top of Dragon immunity. It also gains a weakness to Steel-types, so it needs to be more wary of Metagross / Jirachi / Scizor / Bisharp. Lucario will actually see use now that can terrorize Togekiss. Mega Lucario possesses 146 Atk and 112 Speed iirc, so that's a new Speed tier that we would want our Pokemon to pass.

Ghost-types received a huge boost from Steel's loss in Ghost resistance! Gengar will most likely be the top dog of XY Dubs (Shadow Tag... yuck). There's also of course Aegislash, which is really screwy with its unique typing and King's Shield ;d. It's annoying for a lot of physical sweepers, who depend on Fighting-type auxiliary moves to punish Steel-types - prominent BW physical sweepers like Tornadus, Terrakion, and Breloom find themselves cockblocked by Aegislash. Tornadus has Defiant, but that only offsets the -2 Atk drop. Expect to see more Earthquake and Fire-type moves just to get past this critter.

Malamar is a cool Pokemon to consider imo. With Contrary, it receives Speed boost from Icy Wind and an Attack boost from Intimidate. Aegislash cannot use King's Shield without risking doubling Malamar's Attack! Psychic / Dark typing is pretty sick, allowing it to switch into Cresselia without worries and only being weak to Bug (4x) and Fairy. Topsy Turvy is also a cool support option to reverse any (self-) inflicted stat drops of your partner.

Despite Fairy-types, I think certain Fighting-types will see use. There's the obvious Mega Pokemon like Lucario that snipes Fairies with Adaptability Bullet Punch, Blaziken (I guess people will go Special?), and Pure Power Medicham (x_x;;). Pangoro is neat, imo, since it has a decent amount of Speed and sick 130 Atk and Fighting / Dark typing to pack serious punch. Steel-types lost its resistance to Dark, so Pangoro can spam Crunch without much consequences. Most Fairy-types lose their resistances to one of its STAB, due to their secondary typing (see Mawile and Gardevoir), but Pangoro can always use Poison Jab. Parting Shot is also another cool option for Pangoro to cripple something like Landorus-T or Hitmontop (or boost a partner with Defiant / Contrary) before switching out. It's a shame that its best Fighting-type move is Iron Fist-boosted Hammer Arm, though ;/ It's weak to opposing Fighting-type and quad weak to Fairies, though, and Scrafty still wins in the utility department, so I may be a bit optimistic right now.

Weather nerf would affect Doubles in a number of ways. First, you must keep your weather summoner alive even if the opponent doesn't have a competing weather summoner. Back up Rain Dance user may be more common now. Kingdra and Excadrill kind of takes a hit now, since rain and sandstorm isn't permanent any more. Dedicated weather teams are even more difficult to operate. Sad days :[

Just like The Reptile, I am also psyched about Talonflame's Gale Wings. With this ability, Talonflame possesses the strongest priority move in the game. It's amazing how it can disregard any form of Speed control and start knocking shit down with priority Acrobatics / Brave Bird. Its Attack is subpar, but if you run Adamant, you raise its Attack to a more tolerable 284 while still being faster than Mega Lucario and Tornadus. Best used for revenge-killing and for late-game clean up, since it struggles to OHKO anything with remotely good bulk.

Tyrantrum is also pretty legit, imo. It has good physical bulk (95 HP / 120 Def) and a cool typing (Rock / Dragon). What more, its Hidden Ability is Rock Head, so it can abuse Head Smash to the max :] Just like Pangoro it has an awkward Speed tier, so you would need some proper Speed control (or it can use Rock Polish)
 
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didnt feel like making a big post but wanted to mention that mega banette has prankster, imprison, skill swap and trick room. also it looks cool, i want one and its a damn shame it doesn't get charm/an attack lowering move (that i know of) because im looking for a prankster charm user that will go well with scarf malamar :/
 
Backing up Pocket on Malamar - I made a beta team with Bulldoze Heatran and a two attacks Malamar (Topsy-Turvy, Superpower, Night Slash / Psycho Cut, Protect) and it's pretty cool. Not the best, but worth trying.
 
Just to add on to Pocket's (and the people who posted while I was writing this) post:

I've also been looking at Trevenant, who can check rain and physical attackers fairly easily due to tolerable 90/70/80 defenses alongside Sitrus Berry and its Hidden Ability in Harvest. It also has Wood Hammer, Shadow Claw, Will O' Wisp and Harvest ChestoRest to play around with, among other things.

Aurorus apparently has Snow Warning as a Hidden Ability (assuming I heard right), so it will definitely have some perks over Abomasnow, notably higher SpA and better bulk, but its Water-, Steel- (x4), and Fighting-type (x4) weaknesses will definitely give Abomasnow advantages, not to mention Mega Abomasnow exists.

Diggersby gets the Hidden Ability Huge Power, allowing it to spam Nature Power (in the event it doesn't get EQ) off of the equivalent of a base 169 attack stat making it a viable choice for various teams (base 90 speed is enough to make it usable in Trick Room, but it certainly will not need Trick Room to function). Other than that, it doesn't have much to work with, though.

Then there is the new pseudo-legendary Goodra. While it certainly hates Fairy-types, it gets a much coveted Sludge Bomb, giving it a viable choice against Fairy-types. It can also turn to Steel-type allies for help in assassinating troublesome Fairies so that it can spam Dragon-type attacks to its heart's content. Most notable is its ability, Hydration (Sap Sipper is also cool for a Spore immunity), which allows it to function on Rain teams fairly well (assuming weather is still a part of the metagame despite the nerf), healing off damage with Rest while eliminate common pests against rain such as Gastrodon and Rotom-W with Power Whip (it even has Muddy Water :o). 80/80/140 defenses will also allow it to tank special attacks fairly easily.

Barbaracle will be an interesting option, as it has 70/115/100 defenses and the equivalent of a ~148 base attack, courtesy of Tough Claws. It also has Shell Smash... which means more Rage Powder + Shell Smash gimmicks x_x. Anyway, with Fighting-type coverage alongside its STABs, it will be able to dish out heavy damage to a wide array of threats.

Chesnaught will obviously be outclassed by Breloom in most areas, but it operates better in Trick Room thanks to a 59 base speed and Hammer Arm. It also has Nature Power and Spiky Shield to play around with. It also has better 81/128/68 defenses.

Hawlucha has a Thunder Wave immunity and nice 122 base speed, so a Flying Gem Acrobatics set will be fairly effective on it, though it has a lacking attack stat. Interested to see how Flying Press will work, though.

Noivern is one of the first Dragon / Flying types to actually have usable Flying-type STAB outside Hidden Power (bar Dragonite who hated Hurricane anyway). Between Air Slash, Draco Meteor, Boom Burst, Flamethrower, and Tailwind, alongside a nice 117 base speed, Noivern will certainly be something to keep eyes on, though Fairy-types may prevent it from ever seeing heavy usage.

As for Mega-Evolutions, it seems pretty hard to choose which one to use.
Mega Absol is now pretty scary, 150/115 offenses and base 115 speed along with that huge movepool consisting of options like Sucker Punch, Ice Beam, and Fire Blast. It also bounces back Thunder Waves, Spores, Taunts, you name it. Unfortunately, it is still weak to Fighting and has mediocre 65/60/60 defenses.

Mega Blastoise possesses a nice base 135 Special Attack to spam Water Spout with, as well as 79/120/115 defenses. Assuming it also gets Fake Out, it will definitely have some advantages, though.

Mega Blaziken has 160/130 offenses and base 100 speed along with Speed Boost. You should definitely be scared of it. Unfortunately, it still has most of the same problems it used to, namely hatred of TWave/Trick Room/Tailwind, a lack of reliable physical Fighting-type STAB, etc. At least it isn't weak to Fairy...

Mega Charizard X is certainly a unique choice, possessing a powerful STAB- and Tough Claws-boosted Flare Blitz + Dragon Claw combination. It is also one of the few Dragon-types who isn't hit super-effectively by Fairy-type attacks. Along with Earthquake for hitting Heatran and a support option in Tailwind, I suspect it may be a very popular choice.

Mega Charizard Y will obviously cause some havoc by spamming Drought and STAB-boosted Heat Waves off of its base 159 SpA. Other than making Sun teams a bit more popular, there isn't much to add on to this.

Mega Garchomp definitely has some scary potential. A Sand Force-boosted EQ off of its base 170 attack stat will hurt... a lot. Rock Slide will also be fairly powerful. It does have somewhat lacking 92 speed, though its improved 108/115/95 defenses should compensate for that somewhat.

Mega Scizor is obviously going to see some use. 150 attack hits harder than Scizor overall (barring a Gem boost, etc), and it has wonderful 70/140/100 defenses, making Swords Dance Mega Scizor a very lethal set.

(I'll probably add in Heracross and others once I know what stats they have :s)
 
BTW Dazzling Gleam is a spread move, it seems. Fairies have 80 BP nearly unresisted STAB spread that hits Darks, Fighting, and Dragons for SE. Prepare thyself, doubles.
 
nyttyn said:
BTW Dazzling Gleam is a spread move, it seems. Fairies have 80 BP nearly unresisted STAB spread that hits Darks, Fighting, and Dragons for SE. Prepare thyself, doubles.
Click to expand...

It technically hits 60 BP due to being a spread move though. This won't be OHKOing much, especially given that most of the Fairies don't have all that impressive stats (I'd prefer 80bp on one opponent at a time anyway tbh :x). But Mega Gardevoir will definitely be worth preparing for, that's for sure. Steel-types are going to be something Fairies need coverage for if they plan to be successful, so Focus Blast on Gardevoir is something I assume will be common.
 
nyttyn said:
Trick Room is +0 priority now (along with the other rooms)

holy hell this is huge this is going straight to the OP

yes this is a short post but +0 priority Trick Room such a huge buff holy sheeiit.
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Everyone, Whimsicott w/ priority Trick Room = ready to wreck. O_O

Actually, I can see Whimsicott being used for anti-TR on several teams, since it has that great new Grass/Fairy typing.
 
nyttyn said:
Trick Room is +0 priority now (along with the other rooms)

holy hell this is huge this is going straight to the OP

yes this is a short post but +0 priority Trick Room such a huge buff holy sheeiit.
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BlankZero said:
Mega Gengar. Seriously guys it is ridiculous. Trapping everything with this monster is going to be unfair to everything.
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me said:
Fuk Mat Block; too powah
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:mad:
Ban-all-the-things.jpg
:mad:
 
Wow.....this will make faster trick room users such as(.....zam?) really popular as suicide leads or so. About time tr had 0 priority. Also doubles seems to be quite exciting for xy, will def play.
 
Obviously the meta will centralize around Defiant Purugly.

Gen 6 Dubs looks cooler than OU and I can see a lot of people shifting towards it.
For one, everyone loves weather and it's way more viable in Dubs than OU now imo so I think that will bring people in.
With TR changing it might see more use and also new tactics. Change in priority still leaves it weak to Taunt which every good team should be packing but I think people with counter this by using Suicide TR leads like Alakazam or maybe even Deoxys A.
Megas are a dumb idea by GF imo but you'd be dumb not to use them most should see bans but a few of the weaker ones like Mega Mewtwo Y might stay in play and add some variation.
I think Knock Off might be a really cool move to use on some defensively orientated mons, for one it's pretty handy and now it has also been buffed which is nice.
Trapping moves have been buffed too, they now do more damage per turn so I think we'll start seeing Magma Storm Heatran kicking about on the ladder, hell I would've used it this gen but I didn't think of it till just now. Oh also Magma Storm is a spread move :^)
Oh one final thing Quick Feet is now speed boost for stuff, not sure if thats 100 percent confirmed but pretty cool if it is.
Just my thoughts ~

Pata Hikari said:
Oh hey a reason to use MegaBanette.

Prankster Trick Room + Prankster Imprison.
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It has taunt too so you can imprison that, get ready to ride the ruse cruise.
double post lel (Pocket: fixed xP)
 
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I was going to make a Mat Block team in-game and wreck random doubles match-ups on cart but it seems to only works on the first turn in the same way Fake Out does, despite nothing in the description implying it, which is a shame relief as that would definitely be broken if it wasn't.

...not that it can't be abused horrifically if something besides Greninja and Smeargle can use it and U-Turn, although there are plenty of ways to thwart teams dedicating to alternating between the moves- Toxic, Wisp, Thunder Wave, Swagger (eurgh), Taunt, Feint, hazards, etc.

Also +0 priority Trick Room is scary as hell if that's accurate

edit: hell even Protect thwarts Mat Block spam since you don't switch out with U-turn if you hit a Protect
 
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