Dialga(Sleeptalk)

[alexwolf]

Dialga

[SET]
name : SleepTalking phazer
move 1 : Dragon Tail
move 2 : Thunder Wave
move 3 : Rest
move 4 : Sleep Talk
item : Leftovers
ability : Pressure
nature : Careful
evs : 252 HP / 252 S.Def / 4 Def

Why this set deserves to be on site:

• Sturdy wall with nice resistances,good bulk that can phaze.
• Checks Kyogre(except Specs) pretty nicely not getting 2hkoed by Water Spout and paralyzing it
• Counters every Palkia except Specs so with Kyogre that is 1/3 of the typical rain team
• Immune to Toxic and SR resistant mean that Dialga will not be forced to rest as much as Giratina
• Dragon Tail racks up damage along with entry hazards pretty nicely backed up by Dialga's respectable 120 Atk stat

Additional comments:

• Roar is an option over Dragon Tail if Ho-Oh is of big concern
• Special bulk is maxed to take as less as possible from Kyogre's water attacks and special dragon moves
• Fire Blast/Flamethrower or Aura Shpere can be used for opposing Steels in the place of Thunder Wave

Teammates and Counters:

• Skarmory is a good teammate as it walls Groudon,which gives troubles to this set,and at the same time provides Spikes for Dialga to abuse with Dragon Tail.They also cover both ends of the spectrum
• Pokes than can take advantage of the paralyze that Dialga offers are good teammates.Some examples are SD Groudon,Specs Kyogre,Specs Reishram etc.
• Groudon hard counters this set
• Ho-Oh with sub gives you troubles if you don't have Roar since it can outstall Dragon Tail's pps with Roost,Sub and Pressure.
• Ferrothorn and Forretress don't mind being paralyzed and setup while you do shit with Dragon Tail,but can be handled with a fire or fighting move
• Xatu counters this set but gets worn pretty fast if it comes in on Dragon Tail

 

[polop]

Dialga already has a rest talk set and Dragon tail is mentioned in its AC. This thing is just asking for something to set up a Substitute and start boosting. If not boost they can tear Dialga apart with some STAB move that 2HKOes (not in restable range).

Also this thing looks like an inferior Gira-a IMO, except it doesn't get WoW and has to use Twave. Gira-a actually has the ability to spin block and eat Specs Spouts too :( (decent chance to not be 2HKOed by timid Scarfkia spacial rend either!).

If this does get accepted, Xatu and Whimsicott need to be mentioned, the former walls Dialga all day long, takes nothing from its pathetic Dragon tails, can Roost when nessecary while bouncing Twave back at it. The latter prevents Dialga from recovering and uses it for Sub Seed bait, it can even enforce struggling with proper prediction (can Dialga even break its subs?).

Also in rain Dialga fails to break Ferrothorn with a fire type move -_-, since it did not invest in any SpA whatsoever.

 

[alexwolf]

Wow why all this hate?

While Dialga already has a sleep talk set,these 2 sets play differently.The other attempts to sweep late game when its counters/checks are gone while at the same time being a useful defensive pivot.As you said phazing is not even its primary role.It is only mentioned in Additional Comments.

This set provides paralyze and phazing abilites,which are enough to make it different from the other set.For example the other set loses to ScarfOgre most of the time because it gets 3hkoed while being unable to do anything back except from weakening Kyogre with a Dragon move.This set can take the 2 Water Spouts,T-Wave use Rest and switch-out,having crippled Kyogre for the rest of the match!

About Giratina,while it is true that overall he is the best sleeptalker,due to better defensive stats and ability to spinblock,Dialga has several advantages over her.
First of all the typing.Dialga has only one weakness,while Giratina is weak to many common moves in Ubers namely Dragon,Ghost,Ice and Dark moves.Not all teams want a sleeptalker with these weaknesses.
Dialga also is far more reliable at checking Kyogre.It stops cold any ScarfOgre while S.Defensive Giratina has a very good chance of getting 3hkoed by Modest Kyogre's Ice Beam which does 35,32% minimum.
While Dialga gets also 3hkoed it doesn't matter because it has T-Wave.
And generally WoW is not outright better than T-Wave for a defensive mon.It depends but you cannot say that Dialga is outclassed since they play a lot different...
And just because you mentioned Palkia, Dialga is never 2hkoed by anything that Plakia carries so that means it is far better suited for taking Palkia than Giratina.So there you go 1/3 of most rain teams is checked by this set while Giratina as explained,fares much worse.

Finally about Xatu and Whimsicott.Ok i will mention Xatu which takes an average of 23% from Dragon Tail as a counter,although repeated switch ins will take their toll really fast,especially since Xatu won't be getting lefites healing because it will be phazed out.
Standard Ubers Whimsicott take a minimum of 30,54% damage from Dragon Tail so it cannot setup on you if you brought him in with D-Tail.Also as i mentioned in the AC you can always run Roar.
And for Ferro there are Aura Shpere and Fire Blast/Flamethrower which are strong enough,even in rain,to dent him.Dialga has 150 base SpA remember?
Fire Blast does 47,73%-56,82% to Ferro in rain,which is a posiible ohko with rocks and a sure ohko with Spikes.

 

[polop]

Finally about Xatu and Whimsicott.Ok i will mention Xatu which takes an average of 23% from Dragon Tail as a counter,although repeated switch ins will take their toll really fast,especially since Xatu won't be getting lefites healing because it will be phazed out.
Standard Ubers Whimsicott take a minimum of 30,54% damage from Dragon Tail so it cannot setup on you if you brought him in with D-Tail.Also as i mentioned in the AC you can always run Roar.
And for Ferro there are Aura Shpere and Fire Blast/Flamethrower which are strong enough,even in rain,to dent him.Dialga has 150 base SpA remember?
Fire Blast does 47,73%-56,82% to Ferro in rain,which is a posiible ohko with rocks and a sure ohko with Spikes.

-_- *Dialga rests -> Ferro switch in, Dialga sleep talks picks fire Blast Ferro Leech seeds, stops the 2HKO, Protecting and spiking is a safe move at this point... if your awake and you bring in Ferrothorn via Dragon tail...

Turn 1: Ferro Protects to get residual recovery (lefties)

Turn 2: Fire blast hits, Leech seed used, notice it fails to 2HKO due to the seed,

Turn 3: Protect, additional pp wasted. Ferrothorn has now recovered 132 out of the original 220 dealt at max done, on average Fire Blast deals 200 so its only taken 68 on average... 68 damage -> around 20%.

Flamethrower and Aura Sphere deal 40-47% and are even more easily walled due to leech seed, yeah Dialga is really just going to stay spike bait for Ferrothorn as the only good thing it can do is Dtail it out. Whimsicott Encores Rest and Sleep Talk, it can even switch in on Twave and encore that due to priority <.<. Whimsicott can then enforce struggling since your encored into Rest and can't use it because of Taunt.

About Giratina,while it is true that overall he is the best sleeptalker,due to better defensive stats and ability to spinblock,Dialga has several advantages over her.
First of all the typing.Dialga has only one weakness,while Giratina is weak to many common moves in Ubers namely Dragon,Ghost,Ice and Dark moves.Not all teams want a sleeptalker with these weaknesses.
Dialga also is far more reliable at checking Kyogre.It stops cold any ScarfOgre while S.Defensive Giratina has a very good chance of getting 3hkoed by Modest Kyogre's Ice Beam which does 35,32% minimum.
While Dialga gets also 3hkoed it doesn't matter because it has T-Wave.
And generally WoW is not outright better than T-Wave for a defensive mon.It depends but you cannot say that Dialga is outclassed since they play a lot different...
And just because you mentioned Palkia, Dialga is never 2hkoed by anything that Plakia carries so that means it is far better suited for taking Palkia than Giratina.So there you go 1/3 of most rain teams is checked by this set while Giratina as explained,fares much worse.

Dialga is 2HKOed by Specs Ogre where Giratina-a is not, by its Spout henceforth it proves a better check. Your calc for Gira-a Ice Beam is also supposed to be (31.81% - 37.77%) it fails to 3HKO assuming Leftovers with max rolls (which rarely happen).

Keep in mind Gira-a's common weaknesses are negated by its monstrous defenses (it fails to get 2HKOed by Timid Scarfkia's Spacial Rend assuming no high roll) and there is virtually no nonspecs Ice beam attack that comes close to freezing Gira-a for a 2HKO (aside Iceus but thats non-existent -_-) and even Kyogre with Specs have a chance of not 2HKOing (with Ice beam) the monster. Gira-a also does get Twave so technically it can also run this set. Ghost and Dark moves are only run by CM ceus who cannot OHKO the titan and are forced to with stand passive damage. Besides Ghostceus hits Dialga with Focus miss and Darkceus has refresh to remove that Paralysis, I can't see where Dialga is better aside from taking Specs / Life Orbed Meteors, and even then those are Neutral, why not just switch to that Dragon resist everyone brings?

Dialga has 2 weaknesses, Ground and fighting, the former being possessed by the things that happen to resist its status, not exactly a good thing for something thats supposed to paralyze the opposing team.

Also if your going to use the Arguement that it better checks rain teams in general then mention that in the analysis -_-. You didn't mention it in there :( rather only talked about Kyogre.

This set provides paralyze and phazing abilites,which are enough to make it different from the other set.For example the other set loses to ScarfOgre most of the time because it gets 3hkoed while being unable to do anything back except from weakening Kyogre with a Dragon move.This set can take the 2 Water Spouts,T-Wave use Rest and switch-out,having crippled Kyogre for the rest of the match!

While losing all momentum gained -_-, rest talk bulk up can Dragon Claw or Outrage Kyogre to make its Water Spouts tickle, and start Resting when its 6HKO spout starts nearing its death, effectively making it set-up bait, still checks Kyogre. Gira-a still does the exact samething as the one you posted (not BU) except it checks Specs. Gira-a also gets twave if you wanted to transform it into THAT :(.

Still not seeing your point.

 

[alexwolf]

-_- *Dialga rests -> Ferro switch in, Dialga sleep talks picks fire Blast Ferro Leech seeds, stops the 2HKO, Protecting and spiking is a safe move at this point... if your awake and you bring in Ferrothorn via Dragon tail...

Turn 1: Ferro Protects to get residual recovery (lefties)

Turn 2: Fire blast hits, Leech seed used, notice it fails to 2HKO due to the seed,

Turn 3: Protect, additional pp wasted. Ferrothorn has now recovered 132 out of the original 220 dealt at max done, on average Fire Blast deals 200 so its only taken 68 on average... 68 damage -> around 20%.

Flamethrower and Aura Sphere deal 40-47% and are even more easily walled due to leech seed, yeah Dialga is really just going to stay spike bait for Ferrothorn as the only good thing it can do is Dtail it out. Whimsicott Encores Rest and Sleep Talk, it can even switch in on Twave and encore that due to priority <.<. Whimsicott can then enforce struggling since your encored into Rest and can't use it because of Taunt.

All these happen if Dialga is asleep.If it isn't you are fine.Also all of those you mentioned are problems for Sleeptalking Giratina too so i don't really see your point.
According to what you say Giratina is bad because Ferro,Xatu and Whimsicott use her as setup bait?I don't get your logic at all...If you are afraid that Ferro is going to setup while you are asleep carry a spinner or something that can deal with it...

Oh and something else that i forgot...
No sane player would bring their Whimsicott/Xatu into Dialga.Dragon Tail is commonly used by many Dialga sets so it deosn't give away the surprise value which always counts.'Till they figure out that their Xatu counters you,you will already have paralyzed several mons.
The suprise factor is a nice bonus for this set!

Dialga is 2HKOed by Specs Ogre where Giratina-a is not, by its Spout henceforth it proves a better check. Your calc for Gira-a is also supposed to be (31.81% - 37.77%) it fails to 3HKO assuming Leftovers with max rolls (which probably will rarely happen).

Giratina is 2hkoed by specs Ice Beam with SR so?
Also about the calc for Ice Beam you are right,i forgot to put a positive nature.But still paralyzing Kyogre is better than takning 3 Ice Beams while avoiding crits and freezes don't you think so?
So to sum things up Dialga handles better ScafOgre than Giratina and both get wrecked by SpecsOgre.So the conclusion?
And also this Dialga perfectly counters CM Kyogre even when asleep because both moves(Dragon Tail and T-Wave)cripple Kyogre badly while Giratina has to pray that Sleep Talk choses the phazing move.So which way seems more reliable to you?

Keep in mind Gira-a's common weaknesses are negated by its monstrous defenses (it fails to get 2HKOed by Timid Scarfkia's Spacial Rend assuming no high roll) and there is virtually no nonspecs Ice beam attack that comes close to freezing Gira-a for a 2HKO (aside Iceus but thats non-existent -_-) and even Kyogre with Specs have a chance of not 2HKOing (with Ice beam) the monster. Gira-a also does get Twave so technically it can also run this set. Ghost and Dark moves are only run by CM ceus who cannot OHKO the titan and are forced to with stand passive damage. Besides Ghostceus hits Dialga with Focus miss and Darkceus has refresh to remove that Paralysis, I can't see where Dialga is better aside from taking Specs / Life Orbed Meteors, and even then those are Neutral, why not just switch to that Dragon resist everyone brings?

As i said earlier Dialga handles Palkia and Kyogre much better in general.There is no denying that.That alone is a reason to use him.
Also while Giratina gets T-Wave it doesn't run it so...If it wants to counter the things it is supposed to(see Extremekiller Arceus fe),it must carry WoW.
Another advantage that i stated earlier and you overlooked,is that Dialga will be forced to rest rarer because of it's immunity to Toxic and her resistance/immunity to hazards.
Dialga is also much better at handling Choiced DMs,Zekrom and Manaphy.And has a much stronger Dragon Tail!
What about Giratina-0?Dialga is perfectly capable of switching in on both the mixed and the CM set,while Giratina...
And it can use fire attacks to keep steel types at bay!
Are those enough for you?

Dialga has 2 weaknesses, Ground and fighting, the former being possessed by the things that happen to resist its status, not exactly a good thing for something thats supposed to paralyze the opposing team.

Well guess what everything gets countered by something so?What is the use of mentioning what counters it?I never said that this set is immortal or flawless.
Also keep in mind that Groudon is not so eager to switch into Dialga as its DMs hurt like hell the ground titan.

Also if your going to use the Arguement that it better checks rain teams in general then mention that in the analysis -_-. You didn't mention it in there :( rather only talked about Kyogre.

Yes i will thx for the suggestion!

While losing all momentum gained -_-, rest talk bulk up can Dragon Claw or Outrage Kyogre to make its Water Spouts tickle, and start Resting when its 6HKO spout starts nearing its death, effectively making it set-up bait, still checks Kyogre. Gira-a still does the exact samething as the one you posted (not BU) except it checks Specs. It gets twave :(.

Still not seeing your point.

It doesn't matter if it loses momentum,because the job is done.If you think it loses momentum don't use it in an offensive team.Dialga's Dragon Claw does a maximum of 38% damage to 4 HP Kyogre so it still gets 3hkoed by Water Spout.
Finally about Giratina as i said having a small chance of getting 3hkoed is worst than having no chance of getting 3hkoed because you paralyze it.And again Giratina never uses T-Wave so stop mentioning it pls.Giratina has some roles and jobs to do in the team.If you take away WoW or Roar for T-Wave then it cannot do its job anymore.But Dialga can run this move 'cause its typing is not good anyway for stopping physical threats.

 

[polop]

All these happen if Dialga is asleep.If it isn't you are fine.Also all of those you mentioned are problems for Sleeptalking Giratina too so i don't really see your point.
According to what you say Giratina is bad because Ferro,Xatu and Whimsicott use her as setup bait?I don't get your logic at all...If you are afraid that Ferro is going to setup while you are asleep carry a spinner or something that can deal with it...

I assumed in the second scenario that it was awake, I was refuting your statement that Ferrothorn cannot deal with Dialga due to Fire Blast. I never disagreed that Gira-a faced those disadvantages, your post shows rather that you agree that it cannot win vs Ferrothorn.

Giratina is 2hkoed by specs Ice Beam with SR so?
Also about the calc for Ice Beam you are right,i forgot to put a positive nature.But still paralyzing Kyogre is better than takning 3 Ice Beams while avoiding crits and freezes don't you think so?
So to sum things up Dialga handles better ScafOgre than Giratina and both get wrecked by SpecsOgre.So the conclusion?
And also this Dialga perfectly counters CM Kyogre even when asleep because both moves(Dragon Tail and T-Wave)cripple Kyogre badly while Giratina has to pray that Sleep Talk choses the phazing move.So which way seems more reliable to you?

Giratina-a's primary role while going Specially Defensive is to stop Specs Ogre -_-. Its supposed to be the sponge that eats the Specs Spout that 2HKOes almost the whole metagame. Kyogre has to predict the switch and release a Specs Ice Beam, meaning that Giratina has not only scouted its item but can still be used later on in the match, unlike Dialga. Scarf Kyogre struggling after 8 Ice Beam hits IMO is better then paralyzing it, but you ignore my point, Giratina-a gets Thunder Wave so it can STILL do what Dialga's doing, while being able to switch into a Specs Spout and Spin Block. Advantage Gira-a.

Both beat Calm Mind Kyogre (need Roar though for Sub) but why would you want to have Dialga take an additional hit after paralyzing it. It is not getting revenged by Palkia due to the increased Defense stat, its better to outright phaze it then risk the 2HKO it threatens both with a Calm Mind it conjures after switching. Neither has an advantage.

Twave is mentioned in the OO of the Gira-a analysis so I see nothing wrong with mentioning it.

Well guess what everything gets countered by something so?What is the use of mentioning what counters it?I never said that this set is immortal or flawless.
Also keep in mind that Groudon is not so eager to switch into Dialga as its DMs hurt like hell the ground titan.

I say its Counters since Giratina is not countered by it and still covers what Dialga covers. Draco Meteor is not coming close to OHKOing it from a 0 SpA attack, half the time both set up rocks when they meet in combat anyway. Vs Groudon, Advantage Gira-a.

As i said earlier Dialga handles Palkia and Kyogre much better in general.There is no denying that.That alone is a reason to use him.
Also while Giratina gets T-Wave it doesn't run it so...If it wants to counter the things it is supposed to(see Extremekiller Arceus fe),it must carry WoW.
Another advantage that i stated earlier and you overlooked,is that Dialga will be forced to rest rarer because of it's immunity to Toxic and her resistance/immunity to hazards.
Dialga is also much better at handling Choiced DMs,Zekrom and Manaphy.And has a much stronger Dragon Tail!
What about Giratina-0?Dialga is perfectly capable of switching in on both the mixed and the CM set,while Giratina...
And it can use fire attacks to keep steel types at bay!
Are those enough for you?

Timid Scarfkia is countered by Gira-a, those that are Specs beat both, and Lustrous orb beat both. Specs Ogre beats Dialga, not Gira-a. Choiced Draco Meteors OHKO Gira-a but they cripple Dialga, regardless of the case your forced to switch to a Steel. It's stronger Dragon Tail cannot break 101 HP subs of Ho-oh or Kyogre so that really doesn't matter. Dialga and Gira-a are not switching in on CM Gira-O since it can Sub to scout the move, if Dialga twaves it Aura Spheres for the 2HKO. It does the same to Gira-a with Pulse. Mix versions Draco Meteor and Outrage for the 2HKO both dragons... and it cannot beat Ferrothorn with Fire Blast I mentioned that earlier and now.

It doesn't matter if it loses momentum,because the job is done.If you think it loses momentum don't use it in an offensive team.Dialga's Dragon Claw does a maximum of 38% damage to 4 HP Kyogre so it still gets 3hkoed by Water Spout.
Finally about Giratina as i said having a small chance of getting 3hkoed is worst than having no chance of getting 3hkoed because you paralyze it.And again Giratina never uses T-Wave so stop mentioning it pls.Giratina has some roles and jobs to do in the team.If you take away WoW or Roar for T-Wave then it cannot do its job anymore.But Dialga can run this move 'cause its typing is not good anyway for stopping physical threats.

Gira-a has thunder wave in the OO of its analysis so it technically does work. Dragon Claws damage is enough to prevent Scarf Spout from 3HKOing it, its based on the HP the user has left remember? It then uses it for set-up bait. Giratina-a is not 3HKOed by Ice Beam as I revealed with my earlier post, and its better to make it struggle anyway lol, like its staying in on either -_-. Both paralyze but Gira-a has the upper hand again.

The role of SpD Gira-a is to act as a special wall while preventing spin blocking, it does both perfectly fine with Twave anyway, sure it perfers Roar or WoW, (so does Dialga in a sense) but since its Twave on this analysis its competing as a twave user against Dialga.

BU Dialga and SpD Gira-a vs Scarf Ogre are at an advantage when compared to Twave + Tail Dialga.

EDIT: It also got rejected earlier when parachomp made a request to put it on the analysis.

EDIT 2: That was Draco Meteor / SR ignore the above <.<.

 

[trickroom]

I don't like this set at all. You also made Dialga lose its main advantages over Giratina as a defensive Pokemon.

POWER. Dialga is hitting like a duck with this set. Giratina doesn't mind being weak because it has immense defenses to compensate for it. Every Dialga set wants something that hits hard, even support sets use Draco Meteor or Fire Blast. This allows Dialga to actually abuse it's phazing skills even more because it forces out more things. Dialga has the ability to hit back hard even when using a defensive set. Your Dialga can beat Giratina-O but the rest of the Dialga sets can do it even better. Dragon Tail doesn't even 2HKO Giratina-O.

Stealth Rock. Dialga is the only other main user of Stealth Rock in Ubers besides Groudon.

You can say Dialga lacks a Dragon weakness but Dialga isn't walling many powerful Dragon hits either. Oh yeah Lustrous Orb Palkia 3HKOes you easily with Spacial Rend so you are not walling it.

Giratina blocks spin and is much bulkier really. Not getting 3HKOed by Kyogre? Modest Scarf Kyogre can nearly 2HKO you with Water Spout after just a but prior damage. Specs Kyogre 2HKOes you with Water Spout. Giratina gets 2HKOed by Specs Ice Beam sometimes but switching in on Ice Beam is always easier than immensely powerful Water Spouts.

This set doesn't suck but other Dialga sets do better. Dialga shouldn't even be your Kyogre counter in the first place. Dialga is only a check to it.

Why Giratina's Will-O-Wisp is useful? It prevents physical behemoths from smashing you to bits! Even without Defense investment, Giratina's Defense is still high and Will-O-Wisp amplifies it, allowing Giratina to still cripple things like SD Arceus or Groudon. Giratina is generally better as a wall compare to Dialga because Dialga has better things to do.

Sorry but I don't think this set is worth using. I think what Mr.Lol said is true as well for most parts. Giratina-A doesn't counter Scarf Palkia though.

QC REJECTED 1/3

 

[shrang]

Uh, I don't want to sound harsh, but I really don't like these type of sets (same goes for stuff like Parashuffling Dragonite, and stuff like that). It's also kind of why I think Knock Off is such a stupid and pointless move. The point is that all this set does is annoy your opponent, but does little to help you win a game.

This set, while it appears to be a sturdy "wall", does not do anything that the other Dialga sets don't do better. You want a phazer? Stick Roar/Dragon Tail on any of the other sets. You want a paralysis spreader? Just stick Thunder Wave on any of the other sets. Dialga's specialty is sticking around and killing things, which this set cannot do because Dragon Tail is so damn weak. Basically, you are taking away what Dialga is good at doing and giving it a more mediocre option. It's like giving Gengar a spread of 252 HP / 128 Def / 128 SpD and telling it to spin block. I'm sorry, but that's not its job! Same here.

Now onto the set itself, while Dialga has a great set of resistances and very good bulk, it lacks the qualities of being a good wall. It is weak to Ground and Fighting, is neutral to Dragon, Ice and Fire, which are all extremely common attacking types. Its bulk, while good, is often not good enough when you're considering how hard Ubers hit. Again, I can't stress this enough. This set forces Dialga into a job that he is not good at doing. This is why I'm rejecting it.

QC REJECTED 2/3

 

[hamiltonion]

Well these guys got everything in there. Basically what they Trickroom and Shrang said.

QC REJECTED 3/3

 

[alexwolf]

Answers in bold!

I assumed in the second scenario that it was awake, I was refuting your statement that Ferrothorn cannot deal with Dialga due to Fire Blast. I never disagreed that Gira-a faced those disadvantages, your post shows rather that you agree that it cannot win vs Ferrothorn.
Whatever the point is that if Dialga predicts the switch in it can 2hko so Ferro can be dealt if you want.



Giratina-a's primary role while going Specially Defensive is to stop Specs Ogre -_-. Its supposed to be the sponge that eats the Specs Spout that 2HKOes almost the whole metagame. Kyogre has to predict the switch and release a Specs Ice Beam, meaning that Giratina has not only scouted its item but can still be used later on in the match, unlike Dialga. Scarf Kyogre struggling after 8 Ice Beam hits IMO is better then paralyzing it, but you ignore my point, Giratina-a gets Thunder Wave so it can STILL do what Dialga's doing, while being able to switch into a Specs Spout and Spin Block. Advantage Gira-a.
Ok Specially defensive Giratina fares better against SpecsOgre than Dialga.Point taken!

Both beat Calm Mind Kyogre (need Roar though for Sub) but why would you want to have Dialga take an additional hit after paralyzing it. It is not getting revenged by Palkia due to the increased Defense stat, its better to outright phaze it then risk the 2HKO it threatens both with a Calm Mind it conjures after switching. Neither has an advantage.
You would want to take another hit to phaze it.Because it is boosting.Or if you bring in Giratina while the opposing offensive Kyogre CMs and you are asleep good luck hoping ofr that 33% chance of phazing it with Sleep Talk or else you are screwed.But Dialga even asleep has 66% chance of doing something against it and doesn't get 2hkoed when Kyogre is at +1.Dialga clearly has the advantage!

Twave is mentioned in the OO of the Gira-a analysis so I see nothing wrong with mentioning it.
Whatever i am not going to continue talking about a worthless move on Giratina.


I say its Counters since Giratina is not countered by it and still covers what Dialga covers. Draco Meteor is not coming close to OHKOing it from a 0 SpA attack, half the time both set up rocks when they meet in combat anyway. Vs Groudon, Advantage Gira-a.
You didn't get my point.When the opponent sees in the TR that you have Dialga they are not going to assume ''oh it is a defensive variant with 0 SpA'',since Dialga commonly runs max SpA.So they won't bring their Groudon so easily until they scout its moveset.And when they scout it you will already have paralyzed a few mons.
And of 'course Giratina handles Groudon better,as Dialga covers other threats better.



Timid Scarfkia is countered by Gira-a, those that are Specs beat both, and Lustrous orb beat both. Specs Ogre beats Dialga, not Gira-a. Choiced Draco Meteors OHKO Gira-a but they cripple Dialga, regardless of the case your forced to switch to a Steel. It's stronger Dragon Tail cannot break 101 HP subs of Ho-oh or Kyogre so that really doesn't matter. Dialga and Gira-a are not switching in on CM Gira-O since it can Sub to scout the move, if Dialga twaves it Aura Spheres for the 2HKO. It does the same to Gira-a with Pulse. Mix versions Draco Meteor and Outrage for the 2HKO both dragons... and it cannot beat Ferrothorn with Fire Blast I mentioned that earlier and now.
Timd ScarfKia 2hkoes Specially defensive Giratina with DM and SR 100% of the time.And Spacial Rend has a very nice chance of 2hkoing after SR.Dialga avoids the 2hko from both moves and paralyzes it!Ok Specs Ogre beats only Diaga we got over this...
Choiced DMs can be stomacked by Dialga,which avoids getting 2hkoed by many of them,while paralyzing them and then resting the damage.When i say choiced i mean with choice items not only specs.And even if we are talking about specs DMs,what do you prefer having a crippled mon with 30% left or a dead mon?
And the problem with Steel mons is that they are very predictable.They can all be ohkoed or 2hkoed by a fire move,while this is not the case with Dialga.Finally having another pokes that can take 1 specs DM and tale tale in addition to the steels is always nice!
You will never use T-Wave against CM Giratina-0.The scenario will be this:
You bring in Dialga while Giratina-0 either subs or CMs.When you are in you keep using Dragon Tail till you phaze Gira out.Also Giratina-0 cannot 2hko Dialga with Aura Shpere unboosted so i don't really get what u mean 2hko.If Giratina-0 has 1 CM under its belt(which is the best it can do)it does 54,21%-63,855 while you phaze out with Dragon Tail dealing 28,54%-34,01%.
About mixed Giratina-0.The point is not to counter it alone.Dialga is the pivot for the DM,so that the physical wall can come in.DM from mixed Giratina-0 does 46,04%-54,46%.But Giratina can't even come in because it loses 3/4 of its health and gets crippled for the rest of the match.
I never siad that Dialga can handle Ho-Oh well so i don't see why you mention him.The bigger power of Dragon Tail matters when it racks up with entry hazards!
Even though you didn't mention it i will talk about Manaphy in case you decide to bring him up later.
+3 Manaphy with LO does ~78% to specially defensive Giratina while Dialga loses ~61%.Add to this that Dialga resists SR and you will find that Dialga takes 25% less damage than Giratina-0 while phazing it out.
Also Dialga fares much better against Darkrai.Giratina has a good chance of getting 2hkoed by Scarf Darkrai's Dark Pulse while Dialga only fears FB which is slashed and has shitty accuracy.
Also Dialga handles much better the mono attacking sub set,not minding about anything that Darkrai does and phazing him out,while Giratina has a good chance of getting ohkoed by a +2 DP after SR.
Finally Dialga CAN 2hko Ferro in rain with Fire Blast,so this is another plus over Giratina.



Gira-a has thunder wave in the OO of its analysis so it technically does work. Dragon Claws damage is enough to prevent Scarf Spout from 3HKOing it, its based on the HP the user has left remember? It then uses it for set-up bait. Giratina-a is not 3HKOed by Ice Beam as I revealed with my earlier post, and its better to make it struggle anyway lol, like its staying in on either -_-. Both paralyze but Gira-a has the upper hand again.
Bulk Up Dialga with Dragon Claw does a max of 38% damage to 4 HP Kyogre.So assuming that it does max Kyogre will be at 62% health. 24,75-29,21% is the damage that Water Spout coming from this HP does.39,85%-47% is the damage that a max HP Water Spout does.So if you do the math Dialga has almost 100% chance of getting 3hkoed by Water Spout,even after getting hit from Dragon Claw.So it defintely doesn't use it as setup bait.I would rather say that it sacrifices itself to do a small amount of damage to Kyogre.
About Giratina,fine tell whatever you want i can't really continue this point with you(Gira runs or not T-Wave,come on).

The role of SpD Gira-a is to act as a special wall while preventing spin blocking, it does both perfectly fine with Twave anyway, sure it perfers Roar or WoW, (so does Dialga in a sense) but since its Twave on this analysis its competing as a twave user against Dialga.
I don't really care about T-Wave on Gira anymore man.Whether it carries it or not Dialga stil holds her advantages!

BU Dialga and SpD Gira-a vs Scarf Ogre are at an advantage when compared to Twave + Tail Dialga.
BU Dilaga loses horribly as shown already.Specially defensive Gira does the same job as Dialga,so i don't really get why Gira does it better...Against ScarfOgre of 'course because against SpecsOgre Gira is better.

EDIT: It also got rejected earlier when parachomp made a request to put it on the analysis.

EDIT 2: That was Draco Meteor / SR ignore the above <.<.

I don't like this set at all. You also made Dialga lose its main advantages over Giratina as a defensive Pokemon.

POWER. Dialga is hitting like a duck with this set. Giratina doesn't mind being weak because it has immense defenses to compensate for it. Every Dialga set wants something that hits hard, even support sets use Draco Meteor or Fire Blast. This allows Dialga to actually abuse it's phazing skills even more because it forces out more things. Dialga has the ability to hit back hard even when using a defensive set. Your Dialga can beat Giratina-O but the rest of the Dialga sets can do it even better. Dragon Tail doesn't even 2HKO Giratina-O.

Stealth Rock. Dialga is the only other main user of Stealth Rock in Ubers besides Groudon.

You can say Dialga lacks a Dragon weakness but Dialga isn't walling many powerful Dragon hits either. Oh yeah Lustrous Orb Palkia 3HKOes you easily with Spacial Rend so you are not walling it.

Giratina blocks spin and is much bulkier really. Not getting 3HKOed by Kyogre? Modest Scarf Kyogre can nearly 2HKO you with Water Spout after just a but prior damage. Specs Kyogre 2HKOes you with Water Spout. Giratina gets 2HKOed by Specs Ice Beam sometimes but switching in on Ice Beam is always easier than immensely powerful Water Spouts.

This set doesn't suck but other Dialga sets do better. Dialga shouldn't even be your Kyogre counter in the first place. Dialga is only a check to it.

Why Giratina's Will-O-Wisp is useful? It prevents physical behemoths from smashing you to bits! Even without Defense investment, Giratina's Defense is still high and Will-O-Wisp amplifies it, allowing Giratina to still cripple things like SD Arceus or Groudon. Giratina is generally better as a wall compare to Dialga because Dialga has better things to do.

Sorry but I don't think this set is worth using. I think what Mr.Lol said is true as well for most parts. Giratina-A doesn't counter Scarf Palkia though.

QC REJECTED 1/3

Whatever cannot 2hko Dialga is walled because you Thunder Wave it,Rest and then switch out.
Also if your problem is that Dialga's SpA goes to waste i can put Fire Blast/Flamethrower as the main options in the set over D-Tail or T-Wave.

Also i don't get why Dialga shouldn't be your check to Kyogre.If it can check the most common by far Kyogre set(ScarfOgre) then why not?

Finally about Gira.I know why WoW is usueful.And also i know that Gira is in most cases more useful,but Dialga still has its advantages over her.

Here are some of them briefly:
Dialga handles better Palkia.If you also add Kyogre this is 1/3 of the typical rain team covered with one mon.
Dialga handles Darkrai better.And Manaphy.And Ferro.And Giratina-0.And Zekrom.
Finally Dialga is resistant to SR and immune to poison which means it is harder to harm her with indirect damage(aka stall)than Giratina.

Uh, I don't want to sound harsh, but I really don't like these type of sets (same goes for stuff like Parashuffling Dragonite, and stuff like that). It's also kind of why I think Knock Off is such a stupid and pointless move. The point is that all this set does is annoy your opponent, but does little to help you win a game.

This set, while it appears to be a sturdy "wall", does not do anything that the other Dialga sets don't do better. You want a phazer? Stick Roar/Dragon Tail on any of the other sets. You want a paralysis spreader? Just stick Thunder Wave on any of the other sets. Dialga's specialty is sticking around and killing things, which this set cannot do because Dragon Tail is so damn weak. Basically, you are taking away what Dialga is good at doing and giving it a more mediocre option. It's like giving Gengar a spread of 252 HP / 128 Def / 128 SpD and telling it to spin block. I'm sorry, but that's not its job! Same here.

Now onto the set itself, while Dialga has a great set of resistances and very good bulk, it lacks the qualities of being a good wall. It is weak to Ground and Fighting, is neutral to Dragon, Ice and Fire, which are all extremely common attacking types. Its bulk, while good, is often not good enough when you're considering how hard Ubers hit. Again, I can't stress this enough. This set forces Dialga into a job that he is not good at doing. This is why I'm rejecting it.

QC REJECTED 2/3

While it is true that you can phaze and paralyze with other Dialga sets also,you cannot do it as many times as with this one.For example other Dialga get worn very easily from Water Spout and thus cannot switch in.But this set can!

Also i know that Dialga is not a good wall.I never said that.It a niche wall.It can do certain things well and thus you must use it if you want its good qualities.I have mentioned many times what these qualites are...