Defensive Crobat??

Dragontamer

Looking at my defensive tiers list (which combine HP and defense/Sp. Def) and the speed list on serebii... it surprises me to find two things with Crobat:

1. Crobat's speed is 130. I guess this isn't too surprising... crobat is a speedy pokemon anyway and this has always been his focus from GSC to now.

2. But in the defensive tiers list (see sig), crobat scores: 115 on both Sp. Def and Def, making it the most defensive nonuber pokemon on the top of the speed tiers till Raikou... down on place #20 with 115 speed and then Garchomp after that down at 102 base speed... both of which are clearly pokemon with different agenda than Crobat.

A score of 115 on my tiers list puts Crobat statistically similar to Arcanine, Spiritomb, and Ursaring on the both sides, and similar to Hitmontop and Mr. Mime on special. Granted, there are pokemon like Weavile who are of similar speed of Crobat and scores 115 in Sp. Def, but Crobat scores 115 in BOTH sides, which is key... making it better than non-intimidate Hitmontop in terms of raw statistical defenses on defense and special defense.

(Read it again. Emphasis on statistically similar. Paragraph on type weaknesses/resistances is later)

For comparison, Starmie scores only 114 in both catagories. Considering that it is defensive enough for Jumpman to mention it as a possible Garchomp counter in the analysis makes me think Crobat actually has potential here. Mind you, I'm not claiming Crobat can wall here. I'm just stating that perhaps we should look at Crobat from a more defensive point of view.

Anyway, while Poison/Flying ain't the best defensive resistance setup with four 2x Weaknesses, it comes with the mixed bag of three 4x resistance... one 2x resistance and one immunity. Immune to Earthquake and 4x resist to Close combat MUST have a niche somewhere. And heck, this is significantly better than the abysmal flying/bug type which is probably the only other combination that offers 4x fighting resist and immunity to ground.

EDIT: Heh, Levetate Ghosts like Gengar somehow escaped my mind when I wrote the above paragraph for 2x immunity to the above types.

Again, I'm not talking about a wall here... but before I continue I'd like to ask yall, hows your experience with the 115 tier of defense? Spiritomb, Ursaring, Arcanine, Luxray, Hitmontop etc. etc. This is the level of defense that Crobat will have. And this seems like quite a reliable level of defense... especially when coupled with Crobat's speed.

As long as Crobat's defenses are "good enough" to last that one counter-attack so that you get your 2nd hit in against whoever you're fighting... if you think about it, that is a massive advantage to not being a glass cannon. Crobat might just be able to survive the first turn and threaten a kill in the second. Two hits from a crobat (especially with Nasty Plot) is clearly stronger than a single hit from Weavile.

Anyway, after reading Crobat's Analysis, it seems like Crobat is very versatile which would be its greatest strength. Like Ambipom, if Crobat could only do one thing... it would be seriously UU. But I seems to be very versatile, with the fastest non-scarf Hypnosis in the game (scarf it if you're scared of opponent scarf pokes out-running it), a threat of Nasty Plot if you run from Hypnosis, an interesting amount of defense (is it enough??), decent support and a strange set of resists and weaknesses.

And now it has Roost (easily breedable too for those who don't want to waste a TM). Roost + Nasty Plot is legal breeding (Chatot -> Murkrow -> evolve -> Crobat)

Anywho, I expect yall to read the Analysis before posting here :-) I just intend to muse on a defensive oriented Crobat that doesn't seem to be in the analysis yet. Nasty Plot, Choice Band, Trapper and quick Hypnosis have already been discussed. So... lets stay on track here.
 
sounds like a great heracross counter. those 4x resistances to Fighting, Bug and Grass and that immunity to EQ is very helpful. I think that Crobat could have potential as a solid Nasty Plot sweeper with a defensive spread. Base 80 in both stats is not the best, but with Crobat's speed, it could work
 
Some quick calcs w/ Metalkid's calculator for food for thought.

Max Attack, +Nature, Guts boosted, Choice Band Heracross using Close Combat doesn't guarantee a 2HKO on min/min, neutral Crobat.

252 EV into HP and it can only 3HKO.

That's the extreme. Make it Adamant with Choice Scarf and no Guts activated, it can't even 5HKO min/min Crobat.

That 4x resist is sexy.
 
Mequuh said:
A Smart Heracross would predict and stone edge, though.
IMO Crobat just has better things to do.
Click to expand...

It's kind of silly to just say prediction will win out - of course prediction will win out. If the guy against the smart Heracross expects it's a smart Heracross, he'll switch in a rock resist. It's just an endless circular argument.
 
I dont remember where or when this set is from, but I know that it abuses spikes and crobats decent defenses and good resistances.

Crobat @ leftovers
impish 252 hp, 88 def, 170 sp def
Sleep Talk
Whirlwind
-----
-----

Absorbs sleep(which is on every competitive team in DP) better than anything, especially if you've got stealth rocks and a few layers of spikes. I havent tested this myself because I'm not really into stall teams, but it definitely looks interesting.
 
The problem with the set is once you've shown it, there's a good chance that the opponent won't attempt sleep again. In theory, that sounds good, but effectively, what you do is use up an entire team member to stop one move (or possibly two or three depending on the number of sleepers on a team). At least if you're running something like Heracross with Sleep Talk in it's fourth moveslot you still have something that has other uses. That Crobat set does nearly nothing if the opponent isn't using sleep moves anymore (or at all). It could be especially bad if you only get to Whirlwind once or twice before waking up.

Worse yet is that it needs SRock/Spikes up to do it's job, but if something is put to sleep early and doesn't get a chance to wake up, Crobat may never get to do his job at all.
 
That set was on the smogon advance dex. Takes sleep and uses its massive speed to shuffle with non-end-of-turn whirlwind. Max the speed and they can't really do much 'til you wake :D

Doesn't life orb bat get a mention? I've been thinking about a set for when I breed my bat (working on now): Pursiut, Roost, Brave bird and U-turn. Works brilliantly with life orb. Roost on switches from Cb'd pokes hitting the resistances if you're on low health, or pursuit 'em if they're weak (you'll be faster 99 % if the time so you'll be fun if they switch). U-turn out when they bring in a counter. Brave bird for power.
 
I brought this point up a while ago in an old thread.

It won't even get KO'ed as an Impish 252 HP / 252 Def from getting hit against an Adamant Tyranitar's Choice Banded Focus Punch.

Crobat can take a hit. I've always had lots of trouble with Golbats while training my Grass Pokemon in caves back in the days where I didn't know about IV/EV/etc.

This guy is Anti-Breloom to the maximum. 4x Resist to Focus Punch, Mach Punch, Brick Break, and Seed Bomb, which are the only moves ever considered on the standard Breloom.

Poison/Flying and Poison/Dark are the best combinations that a Poison type can have. (Except for the unlikely future possibility of a Steel/Poison w/ Levitate)

Crobat lacks any STAB moves that are great and it's forced to use Nasty Plot to get any sort of power behind its moves.

Defensive Crobat can be played, with its ability to use Hypnosis and Roost in its arsenal. Lots of people just really tend to look over the incredibly sexy 4x Fighting resist and just settle for Pokemon with neutral damage intake (Bulky Waters + Bronzong) and those with 2x resist (Cresselia + Bulky Gyarados) to wall Fighting moves, which in my opinion isn't enough.
 
Building Crobat defensively is like turning it into a worse form of Weezing, who has way better measures against physical attackers. The only advantage Crobat has is that it can OHKO Heracross with a STAB Flying move, but Weezing doesn't die from Stone Edge. A lot of Heracross also run Scarf which negates Crobat's Spd lead.

The statistical "115" defense is nice and kept me reading until I realized it tied with Luxray.
 
Mekkah said:
Building Crobat defensively is like turning it into a worse form of Weezing, who has way better measures against physical attackers. The only advantage Crobat has is that it can OHKO Heracross with a STAB Flying move, but Weezing doesn't die from Stone Edge. A lot of Heracross also run Scarf which negates Crobat's Spd lead.

The statistical "115" defense is nice and kept me reading until I realized it tied with Luxray.
Click to expand...

I'm really curious how a double-team would change the discussion on Stone Edge, because a single double-team would drop the accuracy of Stone Edge to unrespectable levels :-)

But DT is banned... I'm just curious how it would play out. Anyway...

The point of this topic is not to make another Weezing, but to have a speedy pokemon who can take a hit. Again, this ain't a wall discussion, I'm just wondering if there is a niche for a base 130 pokemon with 3 interesting 4x resists, and a set of decent defenses.

We all know that Crobat's defenses are NOT Weezing(117.75) or Slobro (119.06) or Skarm (119.17) level...

However, unlike many pokemon with similar speed, Crobat does not seem to die in one hit like Weavile (112.79), Alakazam (108.72) or Swellow (111.37). In fact, it seems like there are situations where it can come in safely (or at least has a chance to come in safely) to very strong Pokemon, like Heracross or Breloom or Roserade, and then pose a decent threat.

And unlike pokemon with similar defenses (From Starmie to Hitmontop), Crobat has one of the fastest speed tiers on the game.

For reference: a 4x resist improves your defense tier by 14.54 points. A 2x resist improves your defense tier by 7.27 points. And a +nature or -nature improves your defense tier by 1 point.

Unlike Alakazam... who can't even take a Focus Punch from Breloom (a chance of OHKO)... Crobat can actually counter and then outspeed the Breloom. That has to count for something, even with its subpar 90/70 Atk/SpAtk stats. At least because of its speed.

Wait... what about Spore? Perhaps you don't understand exactly how much Crobat counters Breloom.

A STAB Adamant 252 Atk Breloom Focus punch does NOT break a 0/252 neutral-nature substitute from Crobat. That is the very definition of Smexy.

Switch in on the Focus Punch. Substitute to prevent both Spore and Focus Punch (don't worry, it won't break). Break opponent's Substitute and kill.

I don't know about you... but I can't think of any other hard-core counter to Breloom. With sleep clause in effect, crobat will win in every situation vs SporePunch Breloom, even if it it is Spore Breloom hiding behind a substitute.

When fricken substitutes aren't breaking to Breloom Focus Punches... I think Crobat has a niche somewhere in here...

And with Roost to gain back some substitutes, I think that I can safely say that this is something that even Weezing can't do.

Anyway, how about...

Breloom == Win Crobat
Timid, 188 Def, 252 Spd, 70 Sp. Atk
Leftovers
--------
Substitute
Nasty Plot / Hypnosis
Roost / Sludge Bomb / Air Slash
Roost / Sludge Bomb / Air Slash

You can retain the fastest non-scarf Hypnosis in the game, counter all forms of breloom with a Substitute left over and possibly a Nasty Plot or two, switches in to Choice Heracross who choose the incorrect moves (Crobat LOLs at both STAB hits). Even if Breloom switches out, you're left with a Substitute on the Field which translates to either a free Roost or a free Nasty Plot.

With 188 EVs in Def, you have more than enough Def and HP to guarentee the survival of a substitute vs Focus Punch Breloom. The points can go into HP if you wish however.

Its a shame that Hypnosis and Nasty Plot together are illegal however.
 
Or you could succumb to the fact that Crobat is going to take hits a little harder but still switch into Fighters just fine and max out Speed and an attacking stat and deal out some damage yourself. Also you can't Substitute if Crobat isn't out against Breloom, and Breloom will never come into Crobat, so if you're using Substitute just for that might as well drop it, especially if you got Air Slash or Aerial Ace to get rid of it anyway.
 
If Breloom is hiding behind a substitute, you can succumb to its Spore.

If you go:

XXX uses blah.
Breloom uses Substitute

XXX switches to Crobat
Breloom uses Focus Punch

Crobat uses Aerial Ace. breloom substitute fades.
Breloom uses Spore

Game over for Crobat.

but if you instead:

XXX uses blah.
Breloom uses Substitute

XXX switches to Crobat
Breloom uses Focus Punch

Crobat uses Substitute
Breloom uses Spore

Breloom wastes a turn here. If Breloom "predicts" the Substitute:

Breloom is tightening its focus.
Crobat uses Substitute
Breloom uses Focus Punch
Substitute does NOT fade.

Crobat uses Aerial Ace (Breloom Substitute fades)
Breloom uses Focus Punch (Crobat Substitute Fades)

Crobat uses Aerial Ace

GG Breloom.
 
I guess the question is: "do you want to use Substitute on Crobat just in case you
a) encounter a Breloom that
b) uses Substitute instead of Spore first and
c) uses Focus Punch when hiding behind a Substitute instead of Spore". Or would you rather use something that isn't just tailored to work in one given situation...
 
Because of the other 4x resists it has, Crobat's substitutes will survive a lot of things, including Tangrowth Power Whip, and 0/0/0 Sp. Def Crobat Substitutes survive Leaf Storm from Sceptile, Lucario Aura Sphere, Infernape Close Combat, etc. etc. etc. Which will officially screw them over in a mispredict... while serving as a scout for potential attacks.

Wait, who would Leaf Storm a Crobat's Substitute? Yes, I admit, these are mispredict moments... but one of the above critisms was that a "smart" heracross would use Stone Edge on a pokemon weak to Close Combat. :-/. You can't have everything. Plus, not all Sceptiles run Rock Slide. Substitute will effectivly scout for attacks like this... it gives you the ability to "call their bluff" if you will, with very little risk involved.

But it is not like Substitute is only useful in that situation. A well predicted substitute blocks thunder waves from Togekiss, WoW from Gallade/Guardivoir... it essentially protects Crobat from any status except from attract... and who uses Attract?
 
I lead with a Crobat with the following EVs...

40 HP / 218 Atk / 252 Spd

...and he has managed to survive a DD'd Dragon Claw from Mence while at full HP, with max HP + Def it probably wouldn't have done more than 50%.
 
Metagross @ Leftovers
-Modest-
152 HP / 44 Sp. Att / 158 Def / 158 Def
Magnet Rise
Toxic
Thunderbolt / Flash Cannon
Stealth rock

...Is the set I've been running, suffice to saw it works. (Although Replacing Magnet Rise with another attacking move wouldn't hurt.)

EDIT: I mean on the same note of defensive pokemon.
 
Pikachu of Doom said:
Metagross @ Leftovers
-Modest-
152 HP / 44 Sp. Att / 158 Def / 158 Def
Magnet Rise
Toxic
Thunderbolt / Flash Cannon
Stealth rock

...Is the set I've been running, suffice to saw it works. (Although Replacing Magnet Rise with another attacking move wouldn't hurt.)

EDIT: I mean on the same note of defensive pokemon.
Click to expand...

Bronzong does this better, even if it doesn't have the same base defenses. IMO I would stick to a Choice Band Metagross
 
Monco said:
I lead with a Crobat with the following EVs...

40 HP / 218 Atk / 252 Spd

...and he has managed to survive a DD'd Dragon Claw from Mence while at full HP, with max HP + Def it probably wouldn't have done more than 50%.
Click to expand...

Since you asked... :B

Adamant, Max Attack Mence + one DD using Dragon Claw vs. 40 HP EV, neutral Crobat = 83.49% - 98.13%

vs. Max/Max Crobat, neutral nature = 54.55% - 63.90%

vs. Max/Max Crobat, boosting nature = 49.73% - 58.56%
 
AlleyViper said:
Since you asked... :B

Adamant, Max Attack Mence + one DD using Dragon Claw vs. 40 HP EV, neutral Crobat = 83.49% - 98.13%

vs. Max/Max Crobat, neutral nature = 54.55% - 63.90%

vs. Max/Max Crobat, boosting nature = 49.73% - 58.56%
Click to expand...
Well, I was sort of close. =P

And you're right, the attack did about 90% to me.
 
Monco said:
Well, I was sort of close. =P

And you're right, the attack did about 90% to me.
Click to expand...

You only need to survive once to sleep it, right? And don't tell me you expect to outspeed Salamence after a DD, it always goes to at least 264.
 
Hyra said:
You only need to survive once to sleep it, right? And don't tell me you expect to outspeed Salamence after a DD, it always goes to at least 264.
Click to expand...
Well, yeah, but this was happening mid battle and his lead (not Mence), was already asleep, I was switching in Crobat as a sacrifice as he had already done his job well and was surprised to see him survive that kind of hit.
 
Mekkah said:
Building Crobat defensively is like turning it into a worse form of Weezing, who has way better measures against physical attackers. The only advantage Crobat has is that it can OHKO Heracross with a STAB Flying move, but Weezing doesn't die from Stone Edge. A lot of Heracross also run Scarf which negates Crobat's Spd lead.
Click to expand...
Except Crobat has Roost which helps its defensive ability and can use the side effect well in taking out its worst weaknesses, Rock/Electric/Ice. As long you can survive that initial Stone Edge/Thunderbolt/Ice Beam than Crobat can really capitalize on it.

Also I'm 99% sure on this from experience alone that its easily possible to build a Crobat spread with only half HP/def EV's and neutral nature that will only ever take around 70-80% regions from maxed out Heracross Stone Edge.

Now why is this important? Well you did mention the threat of Scarfcross and 70-80% seems like the perfect damage to use a pinch berry. In this case Salac actually seems viable to deal with Scarf threats odd as it sounds. Or in the case of Heracross, OHKO the thing than let the berry activate for any boost you can think of. In the case of Crobat which can heal, pinch defensive boosts are actually viable for once though I'd personally prefer an Liechi boost.

On the other hand Weezing's 'healing' move depends too much on the opponent pokemon's HP and current state and I think anyone can safely say Weezing isn't doing very much in the way of damage anytime soon.

I really do think defensive Crobat isn't near as gimmicky as it sounds as long it packs Roost and a pinch berry.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top