Counter This Pokemon [ginganinja vs TEMP V1]

[Nix_Hex]

As of 9/14/2012 @ 10:00 AM PST, we are currently at Post 606

Okay, so I closed the last thread because it was starting to get a little ridiculous and I wanted to stop it from spiraling out of control. We're gonna take things in a different direction here. This format has been followed by JabbaTheGriffin in UU, and was restarted in OU by CrackinSkulls but died due to inactivity. I'd like to thank CrackinSkulls for being a good sport and helping out with this. Here are the rules taken from his OP:

This is very similar to the CCAT but rather than trying to create a successful team in general we are creating two teams that will pay against each other. The two teams are made by you by submitted sets that are geared both towards countering the other team and providing solid support/teammates to the rest of its own team.

So how it is going to work is that we will have 2 teams (obviously) and we start off by suggesting sets for team 1's first pokemon. We vote on a suggested set and then start suggesting sets for team 2's first pokemon that will be able to counter team one. The exact order will be {1, 2, 2, 1, 1, 2, 2, 1, 1, 2, 2, 1}. Make sure the suggested sets include all details and refrain from using slashes as it makes countering it much more difficult. An example of a perfect looking set would be
Nidoking (M) @ Life Orb
Trait: Sheer Force
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Ice Beam
- Thunderbolt
- Earth Power
- Flamethrower

CrackinSkulls steps in to clarify the objective of this thread since apparently people are not understanding that HP Bug Cresselia and Dusclops are not appropriate.

The idea of this thread is NOT a counter that pokemon thread. It is a teambuilding game where pokemon are suggested for there respective team. At the end of the day these two teams will battle each other. We want to win this battle. So how do we ensure that... we make each set on our team counter our opponents and be as uncounterable as possible so our opponents are hard pressed to counter it with there next addition. Essentially we want to beat our opponent by countering them and preventing them from countering us. I feel that currently people are not understanding this. In the above Dusclops example, do we actually want to build a team around Dusclops!? This gives the opponent hundreds of options to choose from, Tyranitar which is a HUGE advantage because of sand, hell even a Bisharp becomes possible and very tough to counter. In short when you guys start a team do you honestly go "hmm lets make a team around chansey".

You guys are all intelligent people, use your intelligence, wit and cunning to accomplish this task by trapping your opponent just as you would in a match and using your match honed prediction to ensnare your opponent in a sticky web of cunning. Predict their choices and act upon them, play mind games, this game is supposed to bring out the best of our battle honed minds. If we are resorting to using Dusclops and Cresselia our opponent has us on the back foot in the first round from where they can dominate, bully and force into submission. So cunning OU players out there use your match skills to outpredict, outplay and beat the opponent. To quote Poppy in the Ubers thread " Pick discreetly, with the intention to bait, befoul, bludgeon, barf upon, and generally bring waste to the opposition."

If you guys are struggling to understand the concept have a look at the ubers thread or the previous OU one . Anyway i hope i could help you guys understand the game and keep this thread a little cleaner. Don't post nonsense posts keep them simple, clean and easy to follow. Good luck with the game.

Here are the teams as of the time of this update (9/3@ 2:22 PM PST)

Team 1 (Captain: ginganinja)

ginganinja's Meloetta

ginganinja's Thundurus-T
ClubbingSealCub's Metagross

ginganinja's Kyurem
alexwolf's Terrakion

ganj4lF's Deoxys-D

Team 2 (Captain: Electrolyte)

Pocket's Celebi

Skore's Heatran

Electrolyte's Rotom-W

Electrolyte's Mamoswine

Temp V1's Scizor

Temp V1's Infernape

Here are some resources you may use.
Honko's 1v1 Damage Calculator
Honko's One v All Mass Damage Calculator

 

[Nix_Hex]

Stage 1: Pick a Pokemon to be Countered

The rules here are pretty simple. Post one Pokemon with a sprite and write a few sentences about its diversity (or lack thereof) and explaining what, in general, it can do. A good submission will look something like this:

Starmie

With great 115 Base Speed, decent base 100 Special Attack stat and a fantastic special movepool to back it up, Starmie is very hard to directly counter. Its diversity allows it to pull off a Life Orb set, while its access to Rapid Spin makes it the fastest spinner since Excadrill. Its Speed also makes a reliable TrickScarfer, capable of outspeeding the entire unboosted metagame while crippling common switch-ins such as Ferrothorn and Chansey.

After a good amount of Pokemon have been posted, we will move on to voting. You are free to post.

 

[Electrolyte]

Ok, here we go:

Haxorus

This dragon came into OU with tough competition- there were many faster dragons that could still hit hard that fought for team slots- especially the new Hydreigon, who laughed and outsped Haxorus by one base point. Still, Haxorus has a ton of things going for it- great set up moves in Dragon Dance and Swords Dance, the highest attack stat of all dragons in OU, and a pretty large movepool that renders this thing very hard to counter. With its massive base 147 attack, it can run a Scarf set to great effect to remedy its average speed- or, it can go all out and use a Choice Band to plow straight through weakened teams. You might think other faster dragons, such as Latios or Salamence, are hard to counter, but underestimate this beast at your own peril.

 

[Skore]

SCIZOR

The oft-disputed King of OU and perhaps the one pokemon everyone makes sure they can deal with when building a team.

Banded, Scarfed or Bulky Set Up Sweeper this guy can do it all and is a staple of the popular Volt-Turn tactic - but with priority Bullet Punch it can be deceptive as to which set he's running at first glance. How do you deal with this metal monster?

 

[Shining_Latios]

Dragonite

Dragonite's amazing movepool, massive Attack stat, a nice Special Attack, pretty good defensive stats, and decent speed combined with his ability, Multiscale, make Dragonite a very versatile Pokemon. There is not really a direct counter because of all the sets Dragonite can be currently using. It can abuse Multiscale in ways of being able to pull off a Dragon Dance while taking 1/2 of damage from the opponent's attack or in taking a resisted hit and being able to Roost the damage off and bringing back into Multiscale territory. Dragonite also has an often overlooked Special Attack stat, but it's definitely used because of abusing Hurricane under Rain or as a Mixed Attacker. With Dragonite's pretty good defensive stats, it can act as a tank, effectively taking hits and crippling the opponent. Dragonite also has access to a priority attack, Extremespeed, making it an effective sweeper and for revenge killing.

 

[elodin]

Tornadus-T

Ok, I'm not sure if BW2 OU is on at this point of the thread but I believe that Tornadus-T is one of the most hard-to-handle threats I've been seeing lately. I usually have to rely on revenge killing it or using Specially Defensive Jirachi (which takes a pretty badass damage from Heat Wave) on every single one of my BW2 teams. I mean, c'mon, it's just ridiculous. Most of its counters got completely destroyed with Superpower (like Heatran, Blissey, Chansey) and he can just sweep teams like there's no tomorrow. He also gets amazing coverage within Hurricane / Supepower / U-turn / Grass Knot OR Heat Wave, not to mention his stellar speed stat. I (and lots of ladder dudes, lol) seriously need to stop running Jirachi on every team, so I guess it's a valid option for this thread.

 

[Kiyo]

I'll nominate Breloom
[pimg]286[/pimg]

Breloom got an awesome new toy to play around with following the release of BW2, Technician. Arguably one of the best abilities in the game this ability allows Breloom to run some really effective sets. Breloom also has access to the only 100% accurate sleep move in the game, Spore. Here's a few sets with which Breloom is commonly seen: Breloom can run a technician set with a CB, a technician set with LO and SD, or he can go back to the classics and run a SubPunch set with poison heal or a bulk up set with poison heal. All in all, Breloom is a very diverse mon and simply identifying which set he's running doesn't necessarily make him any easier to counter.

 

[ganj4lF]

I would like to discuss again, with this new formula, about the last entry of the past Counter That Pokemon thread: Terrakion

Last time we discussed about, it was easily countered since it was holding a Choice Scarf. However, that's only one (and perhaps the less scary) option that Terrakion has to wreak havok in OU. Great Attack and Speed Stats, coupled with an amazing pair of STABs allows him to hit hard almost everything with only two moves. Add to the mix access to Swords Dance and Rock Polish, Substitute, or just a Choice Band for a great immediate power and more coverage, and you have a monster that can easily punch holes into your team if you predict the wrong set (and, in some cases, even if you predict right).

 

[superbadd]

Hydreigon

With the addition of BW2, hydreigon is arguably one of the most destructive pokemon in the entire game. 125 spa and 105 atk along with decent speed and acceptable bulk make it quite a threat. It's fantastic coverage and excellent dual stabs insure it will destroy the opposing team. Hydreigon is quite versatile being able to run specs, scarf, mixed, and life orb. It's fantastic coverage moves are,(but not limited to) earth power, fire blast, focus blast, surf, u-turn, and superpower. Hydreigon also recieved roost giving it more longevity. Due to it's sheer versatility and the fact nothing can switch into it safely, I nominate hyderigon to be chosen in order to allow players to delve into viable counters/checks.

 

[ClubbingSealCub]

Metagross

It's everyone's favorite super computer! Since it's introduction to the game, Metagross has always been a tough nut to crack. Thanks to his brobdingnagian attack stat, our metallic friend is capable of destroying anything that does not resist it's trademark move, Meteor Mash; and if they do resist it, Metagross may even get an attack raise to hit harder the next time, perhaps even using one of it's many availible coverage moves. It's worth mentioning that, even if it's power has been halved this generation, Metagross is still capable of going out with a bang thanks to Explosion. While his special attack isn't as mind boggling as his physical attack, 95 isn't a low number by any means - allowing it to utilize a mixed set. On top of his attacking options, Metagross packs a few support moves; such as Gravity, Stealth Rock, dual screens, and Trick; which allows him to ruin any 'mon's day by passing it a choice item (or even an Iron Ball!).

 

[EonX]

Dragon #4:

Salamence

Salamence is quite capable of running multiple sets. It's 3 main sets, MixMence, Choice Scarf, and Dragon Dance, all work differently. One just hits hard right off the bat and tries to break down opposing walls, another is a good revenge killer and late-game cleaner, and the last one can boost up and attempt to sweep whole teams. Each set has fairly different counters due to the different objectives of each set. Though DD, Scarf, and MixMence are its most common sets, Salamence can still opt to run a Band set or more Defensive set to just add to how difficult it is to predict. Salamence's wide movepool certainly does you no favors in trying to counter it as its access to both Fire and Water moves means Salamence can work effectively under weather as well.

 

[zpattack12]

Heatran

Heatran has great typing with fire/steel typing leaving him with 3(2) weaknesses. It is able to run many sets, such as an offensive set with a life orb or air balloon, use its great special attack on a specs set, or a specialy defensive set with very respectable 91/106/106 defenses. On offensive sets, it has moves like fire blast, earth power, hidden power and dragon pulse to get great coverage. It has an immunity to toxic, the ability to cripple physical attackers with will-o-wisp. It can also wear things down with toxic. It has many different usable sets which make it very difficult to counter.

Are we allowed to use weather in the sets that are used?

 

[Zentrius]

Thundurus-T

Thundurus-T is one of the new toys we got in BW2, and it's probably the strongest one other than maybe Techniloom. However, Thundurus-T has a great ability in the form of Volt Absorb, which is better than Prankster IMO. Also, Thundurus-T is just a power house. After a Nasty Plot, he can effectively 2HKO Blissey with Focus Blast with a Life Orb under it's belt. That's incredible. He's frail, but he has an increible 145 Special Attack, and has the same Speed that Landorus-I has. He has moves like Hidden Power, Grass Knot, Focus Blast and Dark Pulse as great coverage moves. You can also slap a Choice Scarf in this thing to make it a great revenge killer.

 

[Rackham]

Volcarona

While 4x weakness to Stealth Rocks and a Water weakness may, at first may this bug look unpromising it has an excellent stat distribution and movepool to make up for it. Volcarona's use in OU generally boils down to Quiver Dance and any viable set will be running it. However this does not mean that it is a one-trick pony- Volcarona can run Bulkier sets (like chesto-rest/morning sun) as well as an effective drizzle set. In addition, Volcarona can use it's 4th slot (generally a Hidden Power) to muscle past certain checks and allowing Volcarona an element of unpredictability. It is for this reason that most teams rely on checking Volcarona with a Choice Scarf pokemon of attempting to prevent set-up with SR than providing a hard counter.

 

[AuraRayquaza]

Mew (sets highlighted in red)

I'm nominating Mew because you never know what set it is running until it starts wrecking you. It can run a support set with its base 100 defenses aimed at shutting down sweepers and crippling stall teams. It can run a specially offensive set with its good base 100 attacking stats and speed and access to nasty plot and calm mind . It also has the attacks to back them both up, with shadow ball, aura sphere and psychic for a good STAB and perfect neutral coverage while also having ice beam and T-bolt for BoltBeam coverage, more perfect neutral coverage. It could also could run a baton pass set, with access to substitute, rock polish, swords dance, nasty plot, barrier and amnesia to boost up for any kind of pokemon, be it defensive, offensive, or both. Mew really is a dangerous pokemon that needs to find a way to be countered.

 

[Xelacalle]

I'd like to nominate Meloetta

Meloetta is a new, very versatalite Pokemon which hardly anyone seems to use. Because of this, it can be incredibly difficult to reliably counter.
In her Aria forme, Meloetta boasts excellent SAtk and SDef (base 128 in each) and reasonably 100 base HP, making her a reasonable special wall as well as an excellent bulky psychic type. Although she has below-average speed, she has access to U-Turn and excellent coverage moves making a Choice Scarf very viable. Meloetta also has access to Substitute, Calm Mind and Thunder/Thunderbolt, allowing her to play a simillar role to some of Jirachi's sets.
In her Pirouetta forme, Meloetta has a superb base speed and attack (128 again), allowing her to hit anything hard and fast, especially given that she outspeeds Tornadus-T with just 200EVs in Spe (and positive nature). The only drawback being a required one turn to set up and lowered bulk (100/90/77).
Combine both of these formes and you have a Pokemon that's hard to predict and hard to stop. With a little prediction, a mix Meloetta can continually force switches in much the same way as the volt-turn teams do. Meloetta's two formes compliment each other nicely. Something difficult for Pirouette to deal with can be countered by Aria, and vice versa. If she sees something she doesn't like in either forme, she can just U-Turn into a different counter.

Basically, Meloetta may not be seen often but when it is it can be incredibly hard to counter. There's just so many things it can do that can catch people out... But not quite enough for it to be anywhere near broken or impossible to counter.


edit: Also thank-you for including precise definitions of "counter" and "check"!

 

[Admiral Bobbery]

Venusaur

I am nominating Venusaur because it is one of a few Pokémon with a weather-related speed-boosting ability. There are many Pokémon that can counter specific Venusaur sets, Dragonite and heatran come to mind, but what can counter any Venusaur set? There are SubSeeder sets, Growth sweepers (these are especially dangerous due to the buff that Growth received in this generation), Sleep inducing sweepers, Sunny Day setters, among others. He is one of the most feared Pokémon when the weather is sunny, and it is extremely important that we find a way for him to be countered.

Also, I think it's important that we find a counter that DOESN'T involve changing the weather. We all know that Venusaur is next to useless without intense sun, but where does that leave the non-weather teams? I, for one, don't mind using weather teams, but I don't want to have to resort to weather to beat weather.

 

[Jimbon]

Kyurem

Kyurem, a somewhat underrated threat in today's metagame. With a weakness to Stealth Rock and a shallow movepool, Kyurem is often outclassed by other Dragons such as Latios and Dragonite. Don't let this deter you from using Kyurem, despite its poor number of options available, it can perform well with a number of different sets, whether it be Choice Scarf, Choice Specs, 4 Attacks, Sub Roost or Mixed, Kyurem certainly is a force to be reckoned with. Kyurem boasts very respectable offensive stats of 130 / 130 / 95, meaning it is one of the few Pokemon in OU that can actually perform a mixed role. Kyurem also sports surprisingly good bulk, defensive stats of 125 / 90 / 90 means that it can take a hit or two, unlike other Dragons that you may think outclass it. The most common use of Kyurem in OU is on Hail Teams, as Kyurem has no problem spamming powerful Blizzards and Draco Meteors of that great base 130 Special Attack stat. All of these factors make Kyurem a big threat in OU, and something that should not be underestimated.

 

[WaterBomb]

Since this is full of nominations of half the metagame, I'll instead throw my support behind Terrakion, because it was the discussion of Terrakion in the previous thread that inspired this new project!

 

[Zacchaeus]

I feel like this process is too slow and deliberate, but it could prove otherwise. Also where are all the weather starters?

Nominating Abomasnow

Weather starters naturally have that added air of danger, and Abomasnow can make use of Hail very well. When you see an Abomasnow, you can only expect so many sets, but each one is different and dangerous. It could be a SubSeeder with impressive stalling capabilities or a Scarf set with surprising sweeping potential

 

[Nix_Hex]

Any suggestions on how to fix that? I'm open for suggestions. One thing I dont want happening to this thread is the process taking too long. Let me know.

 

[Electrolyte]

I really like the idea of Tornadus-T; it's a new pokemon that has defined most of the new BW2 OU metagame and it would be very useful to know some good counters to that thing.

Perhaps, so the process isn't so long or tedious, you could set a deadline, NixHex, such as August 10 (or even earlier than that) Just an idea.

 

[lmitchell0012]

If it's not too late, I'd like to nominate reuniclus. With his excellent special attack, decent defenses, and having the second lowest speed stat (after ferrothorn) in the tier, he excels under trick room in the current OU metagame. Furthermore, his abilities make switching in extremely easy. Although he does have weaknesses, this is easily remedied through a fighting type teammate (or focus blast) to counter dark attacks and the pink blobs (or psyshock for blissey and chansey), or a normal type to absorb ghost attacks aimed at him. With the proper support and teammates, reuniclus is an extremely difficult pokemon to counter.

 

[ginganinja]

Supporting Meloetta.

Its an excellent pokemon in this metagame, with a diverse range of sets, and isn't heavily reliant on weather, which gives us open team slots. I also prefer Meloetta since its not really regarded as "broken", which otherwise makes it hard to counter. The previous OU thread started with Terrakion, and then it spiraled out of control just because Terrakion was tricky to counter, ergo, id rather we base the team around good, but not something really, really hard to counter (since it just destroys the foundation for Team 2).

In regards to how long each "round" would take, you are only nominating pokemon, so anywhere between 48-72 hours should get a decent ballot (I think 24 is too small personally), and then you can move on to moves and so on. As long as there is decent activity you should be fine, if there is little activity then you might need to move things along with an update.

 

[WaterBomb]

Any suggestions on how to fix that? I'm open for suggestions. One thing I dont want happening to this thread is the process taking too long. Let me know.

1. Cap the number of nominations. For example, when you open up for nominations only take the first 10 suggested, then have everyone vote on which they'd prefer. Everyone is going to nominate something different, so you'll essentially get half of OU nominated every time unless you cap it.

2. Put strict time limits on voting and discussion periods. I'd say give 12 or 24 hours for people to vote on which pokemon to discuss, then 2 days for us to suggest counters. After this is up, promptly begin the next nomination set.

I think doing this will keep the project moving, and people can continue to nominate pokemon until they are discussed, so we undoubtedly will get to most, if not all, of OU's top threats eventually.