Pokémon Cinderace

Status
Not open for further replies.
Astra

Astra

(bumpin' that)
is a Community Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Top Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnus
okay liberotard
Cinderace

1573958014277.png

Base Stats: 80 HP / 116 Atk / 75 Def / 65 SpA / 75 SpD / 119 Spd
Abilities: Blaze / Libero (H)

Moves:
Level Up Moves
[1] Pyro Ball
[1] Feint
[1] Tackle
[1] Growl
[1] Ember
[1] Quick Attack
[12] Double Kick
[19] Flame Charge
[24] Agility
[30] Headbutt
[Evo] Pyro Ball
[38] Counter
[46] Bounce
[54] Double-Edge
[62] Court Change

TM Moves
[TM01] Mega Kick
[TM03] Fire Punch
[TM08] Hyper Beam
[TM09] Giga Impact
[TM13] Fire Spin
[TM21] Rest
[TM24] Snore
[TM25] Protect
[TM31] Attract
[TM34] Sunny Day
[TM39] Facade
[TM40] Swift
[TM41] Helping Hand
[TM42] Revenge
[TM52] Bounce
[TM53] Mud Shot
[TM56] U-turn
[TM58] Assurance
[TM68] Fire Fang
[TM75] Low Sweep
[TM76] Round
[TM78] Acrobatics
[TM85] Snarl

TR Moves
[TR02] Flamethrower
[TR07] Low Kick
[TR12] Agility
[TR13] Focus Energy
[TR15] Fire Blast
[TR20] Substitute
[TR21] Reversal
[TR26] Endure
[TR27] Sleep Talk
[TR29] Baton Pass
[TR33] Shadow Ball
[TR36] Heat Wave
[TR37] Taunt
[TR41] Blaze Kick
[TR43] Overheat
[TR48] Bulk Up
[TR55] Flare Blitz
[TR64] Zen Headbutt
[TR73] Gunk Shot
[TR74] Iron Head
[TR80] Electro Ball
[TR83] Ally Switch
[TR85] Work Up

Egg Moves
High Jump Kick
Sand Attack
Sucker Punch
Super Fang
Notable Moves:
-Pyro Ball
-Flame Charge
-Agility
-Bounce
-Court Change
-Fire Punch
-Mud Shot
-U-turn
-Low Kick
-Acrobatics
-Snarl
-Flamethrower
-Fire Blast
-Shadow Ball
-Heat Wave
-Taunt
-Overheat
-Bulk Up
-Flare Blitz
-Focus Blast
-Zen Headbutt
-Gunk Shot
-Iron Head
-Electro Ball
-Work Up
-High Jump Kick
-Sucker Punch

New Abilities/Moves:
*[Libero]: Changes the Pokemon type to the type of the move it's going to use. (Protean clone)

[Pyro Ball]:
fire.gif
|
physical.png
| 120 BP | 90% Accuracy | 5 PP | 10% chance to burn
[Court Change]:
normal.gif
|
other.png
| 100% Accuracy | 10 PP | Swaps all effects (screens, hazards, etc.) between each side of the field.

*Libero is currently unobtainable on Cinderace as of November 16th, 2019.

Pros:
-Really solid Attack and Speed, allowing it to be an effective physical sweeper.
-Great signature move in Pyro Ball, along with alternatives such as Flare Blitz and Fire Punch.
-Amazing ability in Libero, allowing it to gain STAB on every move.
-Access to good coverage moves such as High Jump Kick, Gunk Shot, Zen Headbutt, Iron Head, Shadow Ball, Electro Ball, and more, which are even more powerful thanks to Libero.
-Good utility moves in U-turn and Taunt, as well as setup moves such as Bulk Up and Work Up.
-Unique signature utility move in Court Change, notably allowing it to move hazards from it side to the opponent's side and steal the opponent's screens.

Cons:
-Libero is currently unobtainable, making most of its strengths unavailable or hindered greatly.
-Without Libero, pure Fire-type plus a mediocre ability in Blaze makes it very replaceable on a team.
-Mediocre defensive stats make it tough to make use of its utility moves besides U-turn and set up.
-Below average Special Attack, making it hard to utilize some good coverage moves such as Electro Ball and Shadow Ball as well as mixed sets.
-Prone to hazards, making Court Change difficult to utilize without Heavy-Duty Boots.

Dynamax Potential:
-Libero can potentially make it a prime contender for Dynamax, giving all of its Max Moves STAB.
-Pyro Ball makes Max Flare a very powerful move, even more so when using it in the sun after its first use.
-Access to moves with different types give it many possible Max Moves to choose from and therefore its effects, such as Max Airstream (Bounce), Max Flutterby (U-turn), and Max Knuckle (High Jump Kick).
-However, some of these moves would be hindered by its below average Special Attack, specifically Max Lightning (Electro Ball) and Max Phantasm (Shadow Ball).

Potential Movesets:
Revenge Killer
1574299406380.png

Cinderace @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature
-Pyro Ball / Flare Blitz
-High Jump Kick / Low Kick
-U-turn
- Zen Headbutt / Gunk Shot / Fire Punch

-Choice Scarf allows it to to reach a very high Speed tier, allowing it to act as a revenge killer.
-Pyro Ball allows it to do a lot of damage without much precaution, though Flare Blitz is a risky option if you want to reach the HP requirements for Blaze to activate. It would be mostly unreliable, however, since its already pretty frail to begin with.
-High Jump Kick is a great Fighting-type coverage move, but you can opt for Low Kick if you rather have reliability over power.
-U-turn is necessary for it to function as a revenge killer, allowing it to pivot out once it gets the KO or simply after scouting.
-Zen Headbutt is its best option for a second coverage move, as its other moves already target most of the Pokemon Gunk Shot is effective on, though it's really helpful against Fairy-types.

Utility
1574300209045.png

Cinderace @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature
-Court Change
-U-turn
-Taunt / Pyro Ball / High Jump Kick
-Pyro Ball / High Jump Kick

-Heavy-Duty Boots allows Cinderace to switch into hazards without being damaged.
-Court Change can then swap said hazards to the opponent's side of the field and/or steal its screens.
-U-turn allows Cinderace to pivot immediately after using Court Change.
-Although it seems to contradict the purpose of Court Change, Taunt keeps the opposing Pokemon from stopping Cinderace from using Court Change and provides it with other various utility, such as preventing the opposing Pokemon from setting hazards again.
-If one chooses to not run Taunt, Cinderace can run two moves, preferably ones that can pressure most hazard setters due to it losing power with Heavy-Duty Boots, such as Tyranitar and Ferrothorn.
Libero Attacker
1573954846003.png

Cinderace @ Choice Band / Choice Scarf / Expert Belt
Ability: Libero
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature
-Pyro Ball / Flare Blitz / Fire Punch
-High Jump Kick / Low Kick
-U-turn
- Zen Headbutt / Gunk Shot / Iron Head

-Choice Band allows it to take advantage of its high Attack while still sporting a good Speed tier, whereas Choice Scarf is more for being fast enough to revenge kill.
-Expert Ball is a potential alternative to take more advantage of the ability to change types while doing more damage with super effective moves.
-You can interchange Pyro Ball and Flare Blitz if you either want no recoil or perfect accuracy, respectively. Fire Punch is middle ground that gives up a good amount of power, but it can be useful if you want to focus on revenge killing rather than pure damage.
-High Jump Kick is an overall very powerful coverage move to have, but Low Kick is an alternative if you want to give up power for reliability.
-U-turn will most likely be an essential on every offensive Cinderace moveset, giving it useful utility in pivoting with the added bonus of STAB thanks to Libero.
-Last moveslot is extremely flexible. Zen Headbutt I believe is the best option, giving Cinderace coverage against Fighting-types with its own Fighting-type moves being a problem for any Dark-type that wants to come in. Gunk Shot and Iron Head are both good against Fairy-types, but most of the other types it hits is already covered by Cinderace's Fire- and Fighting-type moves of choice.

Utility
1573956031868.png

Cinderace @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Libero
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature
-Court Change
-U-turn
-Taunt / Pyro Ball / High Jump Kick
-Pyro Ball / High Jump Kick

-Heavy-Duty Boots allows Cinderace to switch into hazards without being damaged.
-Court Change can then swap said hazards to the opponent's side of the field and/or steal its screens.
-U-turn allows Cinderace to pivot immediately after using Court Change.
-Although it seems to contradict the purpose of Court Change, Taunt keeps the opposing Pokemon from stopping Cinderace from using Court Change and provides it with other various utility, such as preventing the opposing Pokemon from setting hazards again.
-If one chooses to not run Taunt, Cinderace can run two moves, preferably ones that can pressure most hazard setters due to it losing power with Heavy-Duty Boots, such as Tyranitar and Ferrothorn.
Other Options:
-A mixed set that utilizes Work Up and its special coverage can be used to cover more types with Shadow Ball and/or Electro Ball, but it would most likely be lackluster due to its still mediocre Special Attack and defensive stats, which can give it trouble in setting up.
-A set that utilizes Bulk Up can fix up its Defense, but Choice Band would most likely be better because you can utilize U-turn and you don't have to take up turns to set up and risk being damaged or KOed.
-A Choice Specs set with Fire Blast, Focus Blast, Shadow Ball, and Electro Ball would probably get you laughed at.

The Libero Issue:
Unfortunately for Cinderace, Libero is not yet available, so it'll most likely be overshadowed by better Pokemon until Libero Cinderace becomes available. Flare Blitz can potentially work better on Blaze Cinderace on its physical set so it can reach the threshold for Blaze to actually activate, and its Court Change set probably won't mind losing out on Libero too much, such its main purpose doesn't involve doing damage. Regardless, though, Cinderace will be severely hindered without Libero for the time being, but once it becomes available, I think it'll become a really good Pokemon in OU.

Final Thoughts:
Despite having a Protean clone, I don't think Cinderace will be as influential as Greninja in the previous generation. Compared to Greninja, it lacks the ability to run an effective mixed or special set and doesn't have as many options to take advantage of Libero with. Regardless, STAB on all its moves makes Cinderace a potential Pokemon to watch out for in OU, especially with Dynamax, even though it's much more restricted when it comes to set building. Court Change can be a fun option to play around with as well, but most people would probably find its potential in doing damage more appealing. Unfortunately, though, we only have Blaze to work with, so Cinderace will most likely be sitting on the sidelines until it eventually gets released. Let's hope it's very soon!
 
Last edited:
Court Change is interesting since it sets and removes hazards at the same time and can really mess with Veil/screens strategies. I don't think it's necessarily consistent enough to warrant usage though, especially before Libero is released.
 
theMadArgie said:
Can I use the same set but with Blaze? Seeing Libero is unobtainable atm
Click to expand...
You have to, as you have to have an ability otherwise they won’t let you battle. It’s hardly as good, but you have to deal with it until Libero comes out.
Speaking of which, when will their hidden abilities come out? It’s irritating that we don’t have a proper Tapu Bulu replacement, much less a Greninja replacement.
 
Shame, now I don't know which starter to choose. I was hoping to pick the "best" and carry it throughout the game so I wouldn't bother breeding for a better one later
 
Cinderace @ Life Orb
Ability: Libero
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Pyro Ball
- High Jump Kick
- Gunk Shot
- Sucker Punch


This is my personal favorite set for Cinderace. And yes you read it right adamant nature. Its actually pretty easy to pull one over on opponents because they always expect you to be max speed on a guy like this. Still outspeeds most other mons that would be a threat and once Libero becomes available this guy will be an absolute monster. With the right team around him and the proper set up this guy can easily come in and clean up. Sucker punch is to make sure you beat the speedier opponents when they do swap in. This has been working very well for me even with only having blaze as my ability. And given two of the most used mons in OU right now are steel typing this guy could see ALOT of use imo.
 
I like it with Life Orb, Court Change and full attacking moves. When the opponents know Cinderace has Sucker Punch, HJK, and Pyroball, they tend to use hazards. That makes Court Change more unpredictable and really painful for their team. I've thought about Zen Hedbutt because of Toxapex, but with U-turn works great though.​
 
Jordy said:
Can we please try to keep discussion to sets that are actually usable? Libero Cinderace is unreleased and literally can't be used right now as a result, so there's no point in discussing it really.
Click to expand...

I am relatively new to the smogon forums, but isn't the whole point of this to be theory crafting? If Libero is going to be in the game in the future then what is wrong with talking about it? If I am wrong and it says somewhere that these forums are only to be used for current events I apologize, but I have a feeling myself and a lot of others are looking for a place to theory craft on teams that we want to make. Why make it difficult for us to do so?
 
Jordy said:
Can we please try to keep discussion to sets that are actually usable? Libero Cinderace is unreleased and literally can't be used right now as a result, so there's no point in discussing it really.
Click to expand...
The original posts 2 sets are Libero sets lol no ones gonna be making sets with Blaze
 
jordy making me look like a clown smh my head

in all seriousness once i get the opportunity i’ll edit the post with blaze sets :blobthumbsup:

edit: put in the blaze sets and hid the libero set for clarity, will tidy the post up tomorrow
 
Last edited:
For clarity, the main problem with heavily theorymonning starter HA sets is that by the time they are released, it’s likely that transfers from Pokémon Home will be out and many many movepools will shift. The meta Libero Cinderace ends up usable in will be starkly different from the one we’re in now, so it doesn’t make sense to focus discussion around that set right now.
 
Warpather said:
I am relatively new to the smogon forums, but isn't the whole point of this to be theory crafting? If Libero is going to be in the game in the future then what is wrong with talking about it? If I am wrong and it says somewhere that these forums are only to be used for current events I apologize, but I have a feeling myself and a lot of others are looking for a place to theory craft on teams that we want to make. Why make it difficult for us to do so?
Click to expand...


Think about how long Incineroar didn't have intimidate xD
 
Cinderace is pretty decent, even without Libero.

Pyro Ball is just godlike; 120BP phys attack with barely any drawbacks. No recoil, no stat drops, and much better accuracy than the usual 80%.

Scarf is reliable and it's good at applying pressure when you have momentum. That said, it can be pretty damn weak in the Dynamax meta. It should go without saying, but inviting Gyarados to set up for free sucks.

EDIT: Court Change is actually pretty solid, i'm impressed. When played right you can really put the pressure on your opponent.
 
Last edited:
Heatran couldn't have Flame Body in gen 7...

Will the same happen to Cinderace? :v4:
After all, Protean is what made Greninja OU (besides Battle Bond) so hopefully it gets Librero during the gen.
 
RottenInfernape said:
Heatran couldn't have Flame Body in gen 7...

Will the same happen to Cinderace? :v4:
After all, Protean is what made Greninja OU (besides Battle Bond) so hopefully it gets Librero during the gen.
Click to expand...
It's going to come out one of 2 ways in my eyes. First off, Max Raid Battles. GF has already proven they can manipulate spawn locations, so they very well could set up Starter spawns. The next would be with the release of HOME or some mystery gift down the line. We didnt get starter HA for Gen 7 until the last year of Ultra Sun and Moon
 
Court change is a really neat move, despite libero not being released i still find myself using this mon alot

The HDB set allow it to reverse webs and spikes with ease which is huge for offense, its typing is great for discouraging removers from coming in since most common ones are weak to fire. Uturn is just icing on the cake too for keeping up momentum and forming an easy voltturn core with rotom

Its finally great to have an speedy "hazard remover" for offense, not only does it remove dangerous hazards, it makes the opponent think twice abt setting them in the first place
 
Really love the mindgames you're capable of with court change.
If you switch in on the turn they set rocks they have to work really hard for a read. If you court change, then probably they want to go for rocks again but if they do that and you don't court change they are kind of fucked. You could U-turn. You could taunt. If Cinderace threatens the rocker with Pyro Ball, the pressure is even greater. I think even once Libero hits it will still be pretty popular to use this guy primarily for access to court change.
 
When Libero will be released, another moveset could be :
Cinderace @ Salac Berry/Liechi Berry
Ability: Libero
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Pyro Ball
- Acrobatics
- High Jump Kick
- Endure
With this set you basically try to use your barry with endure to get +1 Spe/atk and double the power of acrobatics. After that, all your move are at least 110 BP STAB moves, and at +1 Spe only Sand Excadrill, Rain Barraskewda and Scarf Dragapult/Dugtrio/Inteleon(?) outspeed you. The Power and coverage of this set are no sense. For some strange reason, Fire-Flying-Fight coverage is perfect vs ALL of the 900+ pokemon in the game.
(You can check here by yourself https://pokemondb.net/tools/type-coverage )
Add that Dynamax flying And fighting moves are the best providing boost on Atk/Spe, and fire can summon sun for double STAB on 120 BP move, even if this set lacks priority without sucker punch, if you manage to remove opponents prio i can see it sweeping through anything is not stall.

some math:
+2 252 Atk Protean Cinderace Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 178-210 (58.5 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
+2 252 Atk Cinderace Pyro Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 864-1020 (245.4 - 289.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO (why i'm even posting this lol)
+2 252 Atk Cinderace Pyro Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Corsola-Galar: 174-205 (53.7 - 63.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (actually no with Strength Sap, but still)

I mean, these 3 up there are the tankiest one in this gen, and noone of them can just switch in and take the NEUTRAL hit.

He just need a team build around him, but being able to break through Stall at +2Atk/+1Spe, or more offence based team at +1Atk/+2Speed is remarkable, i can see him going easy 6-0 under the right circumstances.
 
I feel like cinderace will be uber once it gets libero, because court change is already so powerful. You don't really need to set up your own hazards, they could spam spikes, or a rocker and sacrifice them for it. Then bam court change.
 
Sulfurian said:
I feel like cinderace will be uber once it gets libero, because court change is already so powerful. You don't really need to set up your own hazards, they could spam spikes, or a rocker and sacrifice them for it. Then bam court change.
Click to expand...
Theorymon about this is not relevant right now and shouldn’t really be brought up, just so you know for future reference. It isn’t released now and we will worry about this if and when it is released.

With that said, Cinderace has been surprisingly viable regardless. I have been trying to make it work with Dugtrio due to Toxapex being a massive pain to it due to reliance on FireFighting coverage. It is hard to make work as neither has much defensive merit, but overall Cinderace does bring a lot of utility to teams with Court Change, fast pivoting, and not-too-shabby firepower. Finally, it abuses Ferrothorn better than anything rn and in a metagame lacking a ton of great Defog users and Magnezone, that’s pretty important imo.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top