Celebi (Uber Analysis)

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Siegrin

Oof, my first analysis, and boy, they sure are long...

www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/celebi

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Uber Celebi

[OVERVIEW]

<p>Celebi may be outclassed greatly by faster Pokemon like Shaymin-s, However, Celebi has certain traits Shaymin-s does not, including increased bulk, the ability to setup, Baton Pass, and being able to switch into a status move thanks to Natural Cure. Celebi has all-rounded stats meaning that the opponent needs to know it’s exact movepool before being able to counter it. Celebi is a great support Pokemon that can fulfill many roles.</p>

[SET]
Celebi @ Lum Berry
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Nature: Calm
- Grass Knot / Leaf Storm
- Thunder Wave
- U-turn
- Stealth Rock

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Celebi is often ignored as an Uber lead, as there are much better options for this spot. However, if you look deeply enough, and if you actually bother testing it, it's not that bad a lead. It defeats most opposing leads and never completely loses to one that walls it.This set is better than the one currently running because it can always 2HKO standard lead Kyogre with Grass Knot, it can paralyze faster leads, U-turn on scizor's bullet punch and also guarantees a KO on 252HP deoxys-s. Stealth Rock just to bring in it’s own entry hazards. 4Speed EVs outrun Mew leads and survives hits from lead Kyogre’s Ice Beam and Groudon's Earthquake better than Mew leads. The Lum Berry allows it to U-turn against Darkrai and switch in a priority user to finish it off.

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
<p>A lot of people have criticized me about using Leaf Storm instead of Grass Knot in Ubers. However, Leaf Storm's regular base damage, 140, is higher than even Grass Knots maximum attack, 120. Leaf Storm is also the recommended option because Celebi will just U-turn, meaning that the Special attack drop is gone. Just to emphasize how bulky Celebi is, it can survive a Choice Speced Kyogre’s Ice Beam, and retaliate with Leaf Storm / U-turn.</p>



Name: Leech Seed
Move 1: Leech Seed
Move 2: Thunder Wave
Move 3: U-turn
Move 4: Recover
Evs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Nature: Careful
Item: Leftovers

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Celebi is perhaps one of the only Pokemon in the Ubers competitive battling to use Leech Seed, however, this can be considered as a repeating Stealth Rock / Spikes Damage. However, an extra bonus is added. You can recover health! This set attempts to become an indirect type of attacker that forces switches and scouts for them. To put it in simple terms, Leech Seed forces switches, and U-turn scouts for them. Thunder Wave is just another option to cripple your opponent even further, or cripple the switch in. Recover is just to replenish health and redo the whole process.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
<p>Careful nature increases Celebi’s Special Defense bulk, and it’s EVs are doctored likewise. Evs are invested in special defense over defense because of the many hard-hitting Special Attackers.


Name: Dual Screen Support
Move 1: Light Screen
Move 2: Reflect
Move 3: U-turn
Move 4: Recover / Leech Seed
Evs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Nature: Careful
Item: Light Clay

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Dual Screen support is not common for some reason in ubers. However, every tier can utilize dual screen support for their setup Pokemon, and what’s a better Pokemon to do so than Celebi, who has the most all-rounded bulk in the history of Pokemon. This set attempts to utilize Celebi’s all-rounded bulk to create Dual Screen Support, and U-turn to a setup sweeper after that. Recover is used to heal HP, however, Leech Seed is also a viable option as it increases your HP gradually too, and forces switches amongst opponents, in which U-turn will scout for them. </p>

[ADDITONAL COMMENTS]
<p>The Evs and nature are doctored to defend Celebi against the Uber hard hitting Special Attackers. Special sweepers are really prominent nowadays due to their large coverage in both moves, and defending Pokemon. The item, Light Clay, is used to lengthen the time that Reflect and Light Screen is on play. Celebi may seem outclassed by Mewtwo because it more speed and Selfdestruct. However, Celebi can U-turn after the opponent, allowing a teammate to safely come in. Furthermore, Celebi can come back in later in the game to set up more screens. It can only do so because of Recover.

Name: Support
Move 1: Thunder Wave
Move 2: Toxic
Move 3: Leech Seed
Move 4: U-turn
Evs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Nature: Careful
Item: Leftovers

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Being so all rounded, it’s speed is relatively quick for such a all-rounded bulky Pokemon. Therefore, this will give him sufficient time and opportunity to cripple the opponent, and allow a teammate to setup and sweep. This set attempts to utilize Celebi’s bulk to cripple, Leech Seed, and scout for the opponent using U-turn. By using Toxic / Thunder Wave, you successfully cripple your opponent, by using Leech Seed, you also force a switch, and by using U-turn, you may scout for the incoming switch.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
<p>The Evs are spread for maximum defense as Celebi slowly cripples and wears down the opponent. Even the nature itself maximizes Celebi’s bulk. The Evs are more focused into Special Defense simply because there are stronger Special Defense attackers out there who seem to have amazing coverage. Leftovers helps Celebi stay in longer to use Thunder Wave, and further support it’s teammates.</p>

Name: Perish Song
Move 1: Perish Song
Move 2: U-turn
Move 3: Thunder Wave
Move 4: Healing Wish
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Spe
Nature: Calm
Item: Leftovers

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>In Ubers, a lot of Pokemon love to setup and sweep, Perish Song is the key to stopping all that, With U-turn, Celebi can do a bit of attack and immediately switch out and scout for the switch-in that comes in after the Perish Songed Pokemon is switched out. Healing Wish can also be used instead of U-turn to bring in your own setup sweeper, or any weakend Pokemon that has the ability to come in and sweep.</p>

[ADDITONAL COMMENTS]
<p>The EVs are positioned so that you can get a Healing Wish / Perish Song before you get defeated, Thunder Wave is a option to cripple your opponent before you Perish Song so that he is permanently crippled. The nature is to increase Celebi's bulk and for it to live a couple more hits.</p>



[TEAM OPTIONS]
<p>As most of these sets are used to support teammates, a setup sweeper as a team option on this set would not go amiss. A good sweeper who would benefit from Celebi’s support is Swords Dance Arceus. You could also use a baton passer such as Mew, who could most likely get at least two turns of setup before Baton Passing to a sweeper such as Rayquaza.</p>

[COUNTERS]
<p>Shaymin-s is a good counter to Celebi thanks to Air Slash. Ho-oh can set up a Substitute before defeating Celebi with it’s STAB moves, while Celebi cannot retaliate in return. Darkrai can Dark Void and either set up Substitue or Nasty Plot as Celebi switches out. Furthermore, Darkrai can use Natural Cure against Celebi, allowing Darkrai to put another Pokemon to sleep. Scizor is a counter. Garchomp is also a counter as Outrage is a 2HKO, and Celebi can't severly hurt it
</p>

[OPTIONAL CHANGES]
<p>For the Dual Screen set, you can use Healing Wish instead of U-turn to provide a even more comfortable switch-in. This is also applied to the Support Set, Hidden Power Fire can be used in the Leech Seed set if you wish to counter Steel types, such as Scizor, however, you would need a Special Attack boost to do so. and Recover can be used over Thunder Wave in the Lead set, a more comfortable EV spread of 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD is also viable, and Careful nature can also be used.</p>
 
1) Firstly, I'd recommend that you finish the Tyranitar analysis before tackling this one, you've got big enough of a job in front of you already.

2) Have you tested all of these sets?? I'm quite doubtful that any of these sets, barring the lead set (Which is poorly EVed to say the least) is viable for the tier. Don't blame me for thinking this way, especially when you look at your Dual Screen set (Who's still 2HKOed by Specs Water Spout, IIRC), with Sassy and 0 Spe IVs?? What the hell?? Why would you run 0 speed on Celebi when she outspeeds many of the Ubers that lie at the base 90 range?? Makes no sense. I would suggest you read mtr's old thread to at least know what works and doesn't work: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60588. He has a list of known failed sets.

3) No mention of Nasty Plot at all??
 
Shrang, my sets are not really based around the event idea. It's more focused around the Pokemon Lab / Shoddy battle as I don't really have the DS game.

Yeah, the 0 Speed IVs were the original idea, I just forgot to edit it, it's done already. The lead set was recommended by Calze6, I was going to wait for certain opinions before determining which one I should use.

As for the Tyranitar analysis, I actually reserved and started on Celebi before I actually managed to reserve Tyranitar, of course, I'll let this set settle for a bit before I actually begin progressing with the Tyranitar analysis.

EDIT: I'll put Nasty Plot as an Optional Change for those who use their DS and got the event Celebi.
 
quick note since im not much of an ubers guy: you may want to mention scizor in counters, since he can switch in on anything bar twave and maul you with u-turn, or even set up. garchomp can also be dangerous, it can eat twaves and shrugs off GK, and scarf outrage does 48.5% - 57.4% to 252/252 careful celebi, good chance of 2ko

btw im not sure about the low speed on dual screen, is it for getting a sweeper in safely with a slow u-turn or something?

NP Celebi could also use its own set, considering theres one for OU on site, but i guess im not the one to decide that
 
Belphagor said:
Shrang, my sets are not really based around the event idea. It's more focused around the Pokemon Lab / Shoddy battle as I don't really have the DS game.

Yeah, the 0 Speed IVs were the original idea, I just forgot to edit it, it's done already. The lead set was recommended by Calze6, I was going to wait for certain opinions before determining which one I should use.

As for the Tyranitar analysis, I actually reserved and started on Celebi before I actually managed to reserve Tyranitar, of course, I'll let this set settle for a bit before I actually begin progressing with the Tyranitar analysis.

EDIT: I'll put Nasty Plot as an Optional Change for those who use their DS and got the event Celebi.
Click to expand...

I'm fine with the lead set (Probably just optimise the EVs a bit and we're fine). What I'm really concerned with is every other set. Again, go have a look at mtr's old thread first. I seriously doubt any of the other sets are any good at all, based on 1) mtr's old thread and testing, 2) some quick calcs (Which I'll show in a bit), 3) poor information (I'll expand on this after the damage calcs) and 4) dare I say it, your history of putting up sets without testing them. Now I know I'm not a QC member and can't force you to go and produce credible logs, but I'm quite sure if I'm doubtful, others will be too. I'd highly recommend that you put up a good bunch of logs on the effectiveness of some of these sets and to show that you have actually tested these.

Calcs for your "special wall" Celebi:
- Modest Specs Kyogre Water Spout vs your 252/252 Celebi: 59.90% - 70.54% (2HKOed if they happen to be running speed)
- Modest Specs Dialga Draco Meteor vs same Celebi: 74.50% - 87.87%
- +1 Standard Latias Dragon Pulse: 50.50% - 59.65%
- Standard Latios Draco Meteor: 60.89% - 72.03%
- Mixquaza Draco Meteor: 58.91% - 69.80% (You'll die to Outrage afterwards)
- +1 Mewtwo Ice Beam: 62.87% - 74.26% (Who would just Taunt your ass)

This is not my idea of a special wall for Ubers. To expand on my other point on poor information, stuff like "People won't be expecting Specially Defensive Celebi" is quite frankly, a load of crap. Anyone who has any experience in Ubers would know that special attackers are much more common and therefore specially defensive Pokemon would be more prevalent.

Please prove that you've tested these sets. If you haven't, don't bother writing them. I'm sorry to sound harsh, but I'm going to leave by saying that what you've got here is just not up to scratch and seems more like something you wrote up in half an hour at most.
 
@sharkz: Ima do just that

@Shrang: How do I prove that I've tested them? It's true, Celebi isn't FANTASTIC in ubers, and I can't say it is. What I have there is the closest to a Special Wall I could ever get, I only wrote it up because a couple of friends told me to do so... I'm still checking MTR's old set, so give me a few more moments before I actually decide on which sets to delete, and if possible, any to add.

EDIT: Removing Specially Defensive set and adding a Perish Song set (it was mentioned as useful.), I have tested it out, and I have founded that it wasn't the greatest walling set (especially with that Blissey whore around) But I decided to post it anyways, cause it just didn't feel right not having a defensive set for such an all rounded Pokemon.
 
@Shrang: How do I prove that I've tested them? It's true, Celebi isn't FANTASTIC in ubers, and I can't say it is. What I have there is the closest to a Special Wall I could ever get, I only wrote it up because a couple of friends told me to do so... I'm still checking MTR's old set, so give me a few more moments before I actually decide on which sets to delete, and if possible, any to add.
Click to expand...

Logs, and plenty of them. If it's the closest to a special wall you can get but it's crap, don't include it. Don't write it up because friends told you to, write them up if they're worth writing. If the set is crap, it doesn't deserve to be on-site. Simple as that. You can say Gengar can run a 252 HP/252 SpD/4 Spe spread with a Calm nature and name it "Specially Defensive Spinblocker" because it's his best shot at doing so. However, something like that would be utter crap. What you've got there isn't utter crap, but it is not usable as a special wall, as indicated by those calcs (Which I just ran some of the most powerful special attacks you'll see in Ubers, and unfortunately, Celebi doesn't pass).

Nasty Plot definitely needs to be tested by the way, and if you are keen on this, I'd trust that you will test it.

So yeah, finish your Tyranitar analysis first, read mtr's thread and write the sets that are worth writing please.
 
@Shrang

There is NO WAY I can test the Nasty Plot set, it's just impossible, I don't have a DS, nor the game, and even if I get one, the Nasty Plot Celebi event is already ended. I'm sorry if I don't sound as dedicated as I should be, but I'm not shelling out tons of greenbacks to test ONE moveset for ONE analysis.

EDIT: Logs will take time, and now, EVEN more time, as Pokelab is down, and there are no Uber players in TeamUber, or any other server that I can find.
 
you can test on PO(pokemon online), they have all the latest event moves, the quality of the ladder there is admittedly somewhat worse but its all you got atm
 
Belphagor said:
@Shrang

There is NO WAY I can test the Nasty Plot set, it's just impossible, I don't have a DS, nor the game, and even if I get one, the Nasty Plot Celebi event is already ended. I'm sorry if I don't sound as dedicated as I should be, but I'm not shelling out tons of greenbacks to test ONE moveset for ONE analysis.

EDIT: Logs will take time, and now, EVEN more time, as Pokelab is down, and there are no Uber players in TeamUber, or any other server that I can find.
Click to expand...

Test it on PO, that's where the OU Nasty Plot Celebi was tested. I'm quite sure you'd be able to find some players that are log-worthy on PO.
 
First off, the lead set has the weirdest ev spread I've seen thus far. What exactly does the spread accomplish? Also why does the nature for the set hinder Celebi's defenses? An attacking lower nature makes sense, since U-turn is your only physical attack, and it's meant for escape rather than attack. According to your spread and a rash nature, Specs Ice beam from Kyogre does, 657 Atk vs 228 Def & 404 HP (95 Base Power): 392 - 462 (97.03% - 114.36%), 80% chance of a ohko. Your Grass knot is a 2hko, I wouldn't call that a win with Ice beam ohkoing that much of the time. Rash lowers your SpD btw. I also agree with the leaf storm addition, hell I'd slash it.

For the leech seed, you didn't mention Scizor as a counter, who's relatively common. U-turn not only eliminates leech seed, but also ohkoes you easily, while all you can do is U-turn, and they've scouted your switch in. You don't mention hp fire to get rid of scizor either. For dual screens, you mentioned that the advantage is that Celebi can U-turn safely to another teammate, self-destruct does the same, especially if self-destruct kills. I don't know why you don't even mention Recover for the support set, since you mentioned it's bulk, which is a shame. For counters, Scizor and Dialga are definitely counters, because they can switch on Celebi's main stab and be able to strike back with almost lethal force.

Just my thoughts.
 
Umm.. what? You haven't even finished the qc outline on your other thread. That is supposed to be done when the thread is posted. Of course, there were special circumstances, but you should have at least finished them before you go and post another thread. Seriously.... The effectiveness of the sets aside there are quite a few things done wrong here

1) Why would you post another thread when you still have an incomplete qc outline? :(

2) This write up is not really up to site standards. Remember, it's the GP team's job to polish your analysis for you, not write it. This definitely needs to have more content.

3) You should always post in QC outlines unless told otherwise; it's a pretty bad idea to write something up then have to change it with QC recommendations. Wasted work, wasted time usually.
 
Ok, made some "very important" changes, and according to Firecape, I need more content, so that is currently getting done.
 
I don't know what "very important changes" you made, but have you even read what you've written?? For example:

<p>Celebi may be outclassed greatly by faster Pokemon like Shaymin-s, However, Celebi has certain traits Shaymin-s does not, including increased bulk, the ability to setup, Baton Pass, and being able to switch into a status move thanks to Natural Cure. Celebi has all-rounded stats meaning that the opponent needs to know it’s exact movepool before being able to counter it. Celebi has a diverse movepool, allowing it to perform many roles, albeit sweeping or supporting.</p>
Click to expand...

Where is the this magical "sweeping" set?? You haven't got any on here. Again, if you've tested the Nasty Plot and have actually written it up (and if it's actually good), that wouldn't be an issue.

[SET]
Celebi @ Lum Berry
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Nature: Calm
- Grass Knot / Leaf Storm
- Thunder Wave
- U-turn
- Stealth Rock
Click to expand...

I think you can tell me what is wrong with the bit I bolded.
 
Your leech seed set is out classed by shaymin-s and jumpluff. Not the only seeder. DS is outclassed by mew. What has perish song got to offer in ubers and how is it different? Also, does it work? Also, have you tested by set? My EVs actually do something as well as the set.
 
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