Celebi (Specially Defensive)

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Fuzznip

Fuzznip

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Hello. I was kind of surprised that there was pretty much no mention of Celebi being used as a special wall in its analysis. I've used it on two of my teams and it never disappointed me. It can take on special attackers so well and its typing still gives it the ability to deal with some physical threats. I guess you can say this is a utility counter.

This probably doesn't need its own set, considering how the moveset is pretty similar to the current "Defensive" set, so it can always be mentioned in Optional Changes or something. I need some opinions on whether this should get its own set (like how Skarmory has one) or just briefly mentioned. That means you, Quality Control.

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Celebi

[SET]
name: Specially Defensive
move 1: Grass Knot
move 2: Hidden Power Fire / Earth Power / Hidden Power Ice
move 3: Recover
move 4: Reflect / Thunder Wave
item: Leftovers
nature: Calm
evs: 252 HP / 220 SpD / 36 Spe

Why this set deserves to be on-site:

  • Very effective special wall.
  • Can take on the likes of Life Orb Starmie, Agility + SubPetaya Empoleon, Choice Specs Jolteon, Choice Scarf Rotom-A, Life Orb Shaymin, Ice Beam Swampert, Choice Specs Vaporeon, among a ton of other special attackers.
  • Celebi can take Dragon Dance Salamence's Life Orb Fire Blast with ease and has a chance to survive his +1 Outrage so it can paralyze him with Thunder Wave. It can also survive Heatran's Life Orb Flamethrower and Physically-Based MixApe's Fire Blast and paralyze them with Thunder Wave.
  • Despite Celebi not investing a lot in Defense, its typing still makes it a decent switch-in to some physical threats.
Additional Comments:

  • There's a lot of other moves you can use on this set, but this is what I've used and I've been successful with it. If you have any moves that you think should be slashed, I'd like to hear them.
Teammates and Counters:

  • Vaporeon is an excellent teammate. Since she is primarily used as a physically defensive Water-type, and because this Celebi is a specially defensive Grass-type, they compliment each other pretty well. Vaporeon takes on Pokemon such as Gyarados, Metagross, and powerful Heatran that could give this Celebi some trouble.
  • Physically defensive Jirachi is another great partner. It can take on Tyranitar and Scizor and spread more paralysis with Celebi.
There's probably more I can say when I start writing this if this analysis does actually get approved, but that's basically the general idea of this set. Thanks for reading.
 
I agree with SDS. There really isn't much of a point to run 36 Speed anymore on Celebi. Also, Tyranitar can't safely switch directly into or set-up against Celebi because he risks being hit by Thunder Wave.
 
Hey! I've used Special Defensive Celebi before, and it's quite good. Much more offensive than Blissey and other Special walls as well. The fact that it's 4HKO'd by ScarfMie's Ice Beam and a chance to be 3HKO'd by SpecsMie's Ice Beam (let alone resisted attacks) should tell you how useful this can be. A few things personally, though:

  • Specs Jolteon has a chance to 2HKO this Celebi with Shadow Ball after SR + Sandstorm (~80% chance). It's about 18% without Sandstorm, though. It's also worth noting that unless Celebi has Earth Power, it's not doing anything back to Jolteon worthwhile, which means that even if Celebi is Recover stalling, it will eventually lose when/if Shadow Ball gets the -SpD drop. I wouldn't say this Celebi can take on Specs Jolteon, personally.
  • A +1 Outrage from Salamence is doing 95.8% - 112.9%. Celebi can't take that kind of a hit and TWave, especially considering SR. I wouldn't mention it. It does, however, only take 46.8% - 55.2% from New MixMence's Draco Meteor, making it a decent switch (although DM + Outrage is a 2HKO).
  • Celebi has a good chance of surviving Specially Based MixApe's Fire Blast at full health (77.7% - 92.1%), which is impressive. Physically Based MixApe runs Overheat over Fire Blast to my knowledge, which does similar damage to above. I just think mentioning Specially Based over Physically Based sounds more impressive.
  • HP Ice should be slashed next to HP Fire. Celebi would like a way to hit opposing Gliscor for good damage (who could give this set trouble with Taunt + U-Turn), as well as a way to hit Dragons. Is there a reason not to use it?
  • I agree that the 36 Speed EV's are unnecessary. JollyTar is rare outside Scarf.
That's all for now. Nice job, and good luck!
 
so, does that change all the shit centered around Jolly Tar now? I can think of 2328000 sets that use 244-246 Speed (well not that many obviously, but alot.)
 
i actually think 36 evs would be good because dd tars should always be jolly imo to outspeed starmie after a dd but i guess thats just me? hitting it with a t wave before it dds or crunches is pretty important i would say.
 
Hi. This is a decent set, no doubt, however I feel that it is somewhat outclassed by Shaymin. Why? It is not weak to Shadow Ball, which means it doesn't necessarily have to switch out against Gengar should it come in, and it can counter Rotom-A a whole lot more effectively without that weakness. As previously mentioned, Specs Jolteon can also 2HKO this set. Psychic is a fairly uncommon type while Fighting as a special attack is even less used, so Celebi's secondary Psychic-typing isn't helping it for taking Special Attacks. Without the defensive EVs most Celebi have, it is even more vulnerable to Pursuit from Tyranitar. That's not to say Celebi doesn't have its advantages though - Recover and Thunder Wave. Both are very useful and Shaymin only has Synthesis to compete. However, Shaymin does get Seed Flare, hitting Vaporeon / Jolteon / Rotom-A a hell of a lot harder and having a more consistent base power at the cost of accuracy / PP. Some other things to note, Heatran usually run Fire Blast with Life Orb and physical mixape have Overheat (plus it has a chance to OHKO you with U-turn after Stealth Rock). I'm not really sure what is more important - Recover and Twave or lack of the Ghost-weakness and Seed Flare.

As to the Speed EVs, I don't think you need them since Jolly DD Tyranitar (the ones you are trying to outspeed) will beat you no matter what. Either way you only get one hit off. It'll Dragon Dance and OHKO ya.
 
DrkSlay said:
Hey! I've used Special Defensive Celebi before, and it's quite good. Much more offensive than Blissey and other Special walls as well. The fact that it's 4HKO'd by ScarfMie's Ice Beam and a chance to be 3HKO'd by SpecsMie's Ice Beam (let alone resisted attacks) should tell you how useful this can be. A few things personally, though:

  • Specs Jolteon has a chance to 2HKO this Celebi with Shadow Ball after SR + Sandstorm (~80% chance). It's about 18% without Sandstorm, though. It's also worth noting that unless Celebi has Earth Power, it's not doing anything back to Jolteon worthwhile, which means that even if Celebi is Recover stalling, it will eventually lose when/if Shadow Ball gets the -SpD drop. I wouldn't say this Celebi can take on Specs Jolteon, personally.
  • A +1 Outrage from Salamence is doing 95.8% - 112.9%. Celebi can't take that kind of a hit and TWave, especially considering SR. I wouldn't mention it. It does, however, only take 46.8% - 55.2% from New MixMence's Draco Meteor, making it a decent switch (although DM + Outrage is a 2HKO).
  • Celebi has a good chance of surviving Specially Based MixApe's Fire Blast at full health (77.7% - 92.1%), which is impressive. Physically Based MixApe runs Overheat over Fire Blast to my knowledge, which does similar damage to above. I just think mentioning Specially Based over Physically Based sounds more impressive.
  • HP Ice should be slashed next to HP Fire. Celebi would like a way to hit opposing Gliscor for good damage (who could give this set trouble with Taunt + U-Turn), as well as a way to hit Dragons. Is there a reason not to use it?
  • I agree that the 36 Speed EV's are unnecessary. JollyTar is rare outside Scarf.
That's all for now. Nice job, and good luck!
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Thank you for the comments. I'll slash in Hidden Power Ice because it helps against Salamence and Flygon switch-ins, as well as Gliscor as you mentioned. I agree with the rest of your comments for the most part.

Towelie said:
i actually think 36 evs would be good because dd tars should always be jolly imo to outspeed starmie after a dd but i guess thats just me? hitting it with a t wave before it dds or crunches is pretty important i would say.
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I really don't think it is necessary. I'll wait for the QC to make a final decision.

MetaNite said:
Hi. This is a decent set, no doubt, however I feel that it is somewhat outclassed by Shaymin. Why? It is not weak to Shadow Ball, which means it doesn't necessarily have to switch out against Gengar should it come in, and it can counter Rotom-A a whole lot more effectively without that weakness. As previously mentioned, Specs Jolteon can also 2HKO this set. Psychic is a fairly uncommon type while Fighting as a special attack is even less used, so Celebi's secondary Psychic-typing isn't helping it for taking Special Attacks. Without the defensive EVs most Celebi have, it is even more vulnerable to Pursuit from Tyranitar. That's not to say Celebi doesn't have its advantages though - Recover and Thunder Wave. Both are very useful and Shaymin only has Synthesis to compete. However, Shaymin does get Seed Flare, hitting Vaporeon / Jolteon / Rotom-A a hell of a lot harder and having a more consistent base power at the cost of accuracy / PP. Some other things to note, Heatran usually run Fire Blast with Life Orb and physical mixape have Overheat (plus it has a chance to OHKO you with U-turn after Stealth Rock). I'm not really sure what is more important - Recover and Twave or lack of the Ghost-weakness and Seed Flare.
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I'll be honest with you, I disagree with your statement of Shaymin doing a better job than Celebi as a specially defensive Grass-type. You already mentioned the two moves Shaymin dearly wishes to have: Recover and Thunder Wave. These two moves are so incredibly important on Celebi to allow it to instantly heal its HP without resorting to Rest or Synthesis and to cripple dangerous threats such as Salamence and Gengar. Yes, I know Shaymin has Seed Flare and can hit most targets harder than Celebi can, and that it has a slightly better typing I guess you can say, but having to use Rest or the unreliable Synthesis to restore health is so disappointing, that Celebi deserves to be considered over Shaymin without a doubt.

Thanks a lot for your comments everyone.
 
I'm kind of torn when deciding if this set is worth an analysis, I can understand that this celebi does a good job with things like starmie and cune but I am failing to see how this would be better than a blissey with twave. What exactly is this celebi suppose to be doing on a team? All the things you mentioned are handled by blissey. You could argue that celebi does have different typing and isnt as frail to physical sweepers. The fact that this thing is a special wall and cant switch into rotom or gengar very safely is what has me have second thoughts about this set...I will think about and test it to see how it works in actual play vs theorymon
 
Take as much time as you need to test.

Celebi differentiates itself as a special wall to Blissey because, as you stated yourself, it has a very useful typing and is not necessarily manhandled by physical attackers, such as Gyarados, Breloom, and Mamoswine, among many others. It can also decently hurt things with its attacks, while Blissey has to resort to moves such as Seismic Toss. I've had a lot of success with this set and it's usually one of the only kind of Celebi sets I run now.

Edit: I forgot to mention Reflect on this set as well. With Reflect, a move Blissey doesn't get, Celebi can mix wall incredibly effectively. It also provides support to Celebi's team in general. Reflect also means Celebi isn't maimed instantly by Pursuit, which it is more vulnerable to considering it is no longer investing in Defense.
 
Seeing Reflect on this set makes me more open to it. I would still like to push for 36 Spe, though. It's hardly an investment at all, and why not allow yourself to hit ttar before you go down, in a pinch situation? Sure, it's not the most common ttar you'll see, but "why not?" Are you losing any tanking abilities from those 36 EV's?
 
Philip7086 said:
Seeing Reflect on this set makes me more open to it. I would still like to push for 36 Spe, though. It's hardly an investment at all, and why not allow yourself to hit ttar before you go down, in a pinch situation? Sure, it's not the most common ttar you'll see, but "why not?" Are you losing any tanking abilities from those 36 EV's?
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Yeah, I'll agree with you I suppose. I don't really lose out on any significant bulk, and I guess outpacing Jolly Tyranitar is important for safety reasons. Thanks a lot. :)
 
yeah, phil is right here. i don't think there's ever a time to run a zero speed ev celebi; you need a measly 16 EVs to beat adamant breloom and metagross (obviously a big deal) and from there it's only another 16 to beat jolly tyranitar. you lose virtually no bulk at all from those 32 EVs that could have gone to sdef. (add one to these numbers if you're using HP-fire.)

you mentioned that this set can take on jolteon. may i ask, how? your moves are hidden power / grass knot / thunderwave / recover, meaning you have absolutely no way to hit him.
 
Umbreon Dan said:
you mentioned that this set can take on jolteon. may i ask, how? your moves are hidden power / grass knot / thunderwave / recover, meaning you have absolutely no way to hit him.
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I think I'm going to slash in Earth Power with the Hidden Power attacks. This way, Jolteon can be handled much, much more easily (Hidden Power does pathetic damage against him) and since Celebi can survive Infernape's STAB Fire attacks, it can hit him super effectively too instead of resorting to a resisted Hidden Power or Thunder Wave. Earth Power also helps against Heatran, so I'll note that too when I write this set.

Thanks for the comment!

Edit @ Towelie:
Fuzznip said:
I really don't think it is necessary. I'll wait for the QC to make a final decision.
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Philip is QC. xD
 
you listen to phil but not me :(
anyways, ya I definitely second an earth power slash to catch heatran on the switch, as well as infernape, and being able to dent jolteon and magnezone much better.

edit: im obv blind i meant phil
 
I can see this happening. However, I want to get some time for testing the set. I'll get back with results soon.
 
Fuzznip, if this does get approved, do you just want me to include it in my overall Celebi update or do you want to type it? Also, where do you want to put this?
 
Yeah supermarth, I'll be writing this set for your Celebi update.

Also, I forgot to mention that this Celebi with Hidden Power Fire uses a special IV spread of 7 Atk / 30 Def / 30 Spe / 30 SpA. This gives it Hidden Power Fire 70. I'll be sure to mention this in the [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS] section.

Thank you and I'm looking forward to what the Quality Control team has to say.
 
After using this set for a bit it's been really underwhelming. Celebi isn't built for taking special attacks due to it's Psychic-typing. In the matches I played Celebi turned out to be more of a liability than actually helping my team. It can't come in on Ghost-types. Starmie 2HKOes with Ice Beam and SR damage, physically mixed never runs Fire Blast, so it's hardly a good switch in to that either. Heatran destroys it completely, and it has no solid way of fighting back besides Thunder Wave, either way you're slower than it.

On the physical side it can't take attacks nearly well enough, even with Reflect. Sure it can survive an Outrage with reflect up, but the problem is coming in anyway. If Celebi comes in as Salamence Dragon Dances, and SR is on the field, then you're expected to get KOed. Rotom sets up on you all day, having no strong way of breaking its Substitute. You mention physical infernape, and even then it's risky since they run Overheat, dealing 79.2% - 93.6%, basically a guaranteed OHKO with SR and sandstorm running. Sure you might be able to Thunder Wave him, but honestly you're switching INTO him, so you're going to take residual damage from an attack one way or another.

Gengar can easily set up a Substitute on you, with once again, no way of breaking it you're getting bombarded with super effective Ghost-type attacks. (remember this is Leftovers Gar dealing 48% - 56.9%). LO Cune deals 57.4% - 67.8% with a +1 Ice Beam while you're forced to decide to paralyse it or deal a whopping 37.4% - 44.4% with Grass Knot, remember this is suicune with NO HP investment. Choice Specs Vaporeon's Ice Beam deals 55.4% - 65.3% while Surf does 20.8% - 24.5%, hardly a solid switch-in.

So yeah I see basically 0 reasons to run this. While they have the same stats Shaymin isn't hindered with the Psychic-typing and can actually break Ghost-types subs with Seed Flare. So yeah I'm saying no (not because Shaymin does a better job, mind you) but because it can't even defend itself against common special threats, not to mention leaves itself open to physical ones.
 
Yeah, I messed around w/ this set a little bit, and although it's not "bad", it just wasn't really all that effective. There are just too many special attackers that beat this set to dedicate this as your special sponge on a team. Sorry, going to have to say no as well =/
 
I've tried out the set and also debated it with one of the QCers -- we are not pleased with its performance. As Philip noted, there are too many special attackers that cripple this set, and most of the time you'll need to dedicate one of your team's slot to place a Pokemon who can act as a special sponge to some extent, because SpD Celebi doesn't fit that role as one expects the first time this set is analyzed.

This is the third rejection, so I'm moving the thread to where it should be. Thanks for the effort, Fuzznip ;)
 
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