CAP Updates: Tomohawk Discussion--COMPLETE

[reachzero]

This is a revision thread for Tomohawk, which as the Chieftain Pokemon is the powerful mascot of the tribal peoples of the world.

fat Cartoons! said: ↑

fat Admiral_Korski said: ↑
Concept: Momentum
General Description: This will be a Pokemon that can be utilized to gain or regain momentum for a player's team at any point in the match as its primary function.
Justification: Gen. 5 is a very powerful metagame. As such, most battles are won by the smarter strategist who can best maneuver around his/her opponent's onslaught to gain even a single turn's advantage, potentially clinching them the match. This process of gaining and regaining momentum is most often the defining element that makes a winner and a loser out of a single Pokemon battle. Any top player in this metagame should agree that momentum is the most crucial element in any given match; however, "momentum" itself is a rather vaguely defined term that is never really explored in concrete terms. Is it keeping opposing teams on the defensive? Forcing switches? Good prediction? Spamming U-turn? These have all been approaches to achieving momentum, but they are also player-side and largely synonymous with "strategy," as opposed to Pokemon-side and regarding a Pokemon's role on the team. Certainly there are threats like Ferrothorn/Gliscor (defensive) and Scizor/Latios/Voltlos, etc., etc. (offensive) that can achieve momentum as we know it, but there is no current niche for a "momentum Pokemon" because the concept has been purely delegated to players and not to Pokemon.
Questions to be Answered:
-How do we define momentum in terms of competitive Pokemon? What factors make current Pokemon able to achieve momentum and how can we incorporate that information into a successful CAP?
-How do different styles of play (Weather-based offense, stall, bulky offense, etc.) use momentum to achieve their goals and how can our CAP play to those strategies in an effort to take their momentum away?
-What type of traditional role (sweeper, tank, wall, support) would a Pokemon like this most resemble? Would it have to be able to fit more than one of these roles to fit in a variety of teams?
-How will the different playstyles be affected by the addition of a Pokemon that can regain offensive/defensive momentum at any given point? Will offensive teams play more conservatively? Will defensive teams play more recklessly? Will everything simply adapt to a new threat and move on normally?

Since its creation, Tomohawk has been widely acknowledged as one of the most powerful CAPs--it was a truly dominant force in the Fifth and Sixth Generation CAP metagames, and it remains very powerful today, though somewhat less so than in the past. It is one of the CAPs that best fulfilled its concept, yet "Momentum" has proven a little uneasy in practice, as momentum can at times seem a little too close to "winning".

During Tomohawk's concept assessment, a distinction was made between a Pokemon's capacity to respond to threats ("responsiveness") and a Pokemon's ability to threaten the other team, forcing it to respond or lose ("threat"). Momentum was defined as the ability to control the other player's actions by maximizing the time spend threatening rather than responding. Using these terms, it's pretty easy to see why Tomohawk is so powerful: it has two dominant sets, one of which exemplifies effective response while the other exemplifies intense threat.

Reflect/Haze Tomo

Tomohawk @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Air Slash
- Reflect
- Roost
- Haze

Reflect/Haze Tomohawk is the paragon example of a blanket check. It completely shuts down every physical set-up sweeper that can't hit it with massive, supereffective damage, and in many situations even those that can. Tomohawk was built to deal with Swords Dance Excadrill and Swords Dance Landorus-I in Perma-Sand, and this set shows the aftermath of that.

Offensive Tomohawk

Tomohawk @ Life Orb
Ability: Prankster
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 156 HP / 252 SpA / 100 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hurricane
- Earth Power
- Roost
- Taunt/Nature Power

Offensive Tomohawk threatens to 2HKO a ridiculous percentage of the metagame, and performs especially well against stall.

Tomohawk was voted for Major Revisions, so plainly the user base believes it could use some toning down. To focus this discussion, let's answer some basic questions.

Which aspects of Tomohawk's role are most healthy for the metagame? What beneficial functions does Tomohawk provide?

Which aspects of Tomohawk's role are least healthy for the metagame? How can these concerns be addressed?

Which Pokemon does Tomohawk counter that it should not counter? Which Pokemon should threaten Tomohawk that do not threaten it?

 

[DarkSlay]

Which aspects of Tomohawk's role are most healthy for the metagame? What beneficial functions does Tomohawk provide?

The most healthy aspect of Tomohawk, to me, is the fact that it has good support moves that provide momentum for different team archetypes. Moves like Rain Dance, Sunny Day, Healing Wish, Baton Pass, and other options make Tomohawk seem varied and able to fit on multiple teams for at least one use. The number of sets it can pull off can come off as a tad bit concerning, but I also feel like the majority of this issue stems from specific sets that can do most, if not all, of the sets under one roof. That turns Tomohawk from something that should run diverse sets into something that runs different variations of the same set, which is a concern. Besides that, in terms of momentum, I like how varied Tomohawk can be.

It just being a Pokemon with good typing and stats is also healthy, especially since Tomohawk is weak to some of the strongest attacking types in the game (Flying, Electric, Psychic, and Fairy) yet stonewalls practically everything else. It's unique individually, which makes it viable just for it being the CAP it is.

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Which aspects of Tomohawk's role are least healthy for the metagame? How can these concerns be addressed?

Tomohawk's ability to absolutely stonewall every single physical booster is unhealthy. Specifically, a combination of moves can enable Tomohawk to switch in freely and stop all boosters flat, both prevent set-up OR preventing getting one-shotted from strong STAB options. In all honesty, Reflect is the biggest culprit here, but Haze also merits some discussion overall. It's an easily splashable move that turns all Tomohawk sets (except offensive) into the same set. It's a case of the move just being way too effective at its job. However, it does fall in line with its concept, so I'm torn from that standpoint. We need to decide whether we want to stick hardline with "momentum" or make these decisions based off of in-use observations. We may also be able to address this through an ability change, although I remained unconvinced that this is the best option.

Tomohawk has the ability to hit its checks and counters for OHKO's and 2HKO's without even using its STABs. As a result, Pokemon that check/counter it are no longer checks/counters. I'll go into that below, but this is about Earth Power on Tomohawk. This oversight also lets Tomohawk completely ignore one of its STAB options on anything outside of the offensive set. In fact, there's evidence to suggest that Earth Power is a good mono-attacking option for it, because it lets it beat natural checks. This needs to be examined.

Finally (tying into the ability to beat checks/counters point), priority Roost is slightly unhealthy. I have 0 problems with priority healing, it's not about that. It's about how priority Roost ends up eliminating strong Electric and Ice attacks from hindering Tomohawk, meaning Tomohawk lives throughout the match for an incredibly long time. I do not think this is a shoe-in change, but it should be discussed.

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Which Pokemon does Tomohawk counter that it should not counter? Which Pokemon should threaten Tomohawk that do not threaten it?

Tomohawk has the ability offensively to outright beat or greatly damage grounded Electric types (Tapu Koko, Plasmanta), Steel types neutral to Fighting (Metagross, Jirachi), and Poison types (Crucibelle, Mollux) that should be able to check or beat Tomohawk naturally. This has greatly limited the pool of true Tomohawk checks (and to an extent counters, but mostly checks). It's absolutely baffling that Pokemon like Plasmanta can't beat Tomohawk outright, and this imbalance has shaped the metagame fairly negatively.

I would like to see strong Electric-types and Poison-types become legitimate checks (and sometimes counters) for Tomohawk. I would also like to see offensive Ice-types become more consistent checks to Tomohawk (this can be solved with Roost replacement, but we can discuss that). Finally, neutral Steel-types need to become a more even battle for Tomohawk.

Boosters also need to be a bit more effective against Tomohawk. Right now, I don't have issues with boosters being stopped, but I do have issues with strong SE attacks from boosters being neutered when trying to beat HazeHawk.

While this seems like a lot, the number of changes that would result in these goals is actually fairly small. I'm looking forward to these discussions, and while nothing is a given, I think a majority of people are fairly like-minded with some issues with Tomohawk, and I am certain we can reach a solid conclusion with it.

 

[Deck Knight]

Which aspects of Tomohawk's role are most healthy for the metagame? What beneficial functions does Tomohawk provide?

So I'll get a lot of heat for saying this is a benefit, but a viable Prankster Haze (not lookin' at you, Murkrow) keeps a lot of stat-boosters in check within the metagame. Prankster Reflect Hawk may shut down physical attackers, but that's really just what Reflect does when you can't SD past it and wait it out (nobody uses Brick Break, no viable physical offensive threats have Infiltrator).

To me, Tomohawk is at its healthiest when it can rob the opposing team of multiple turns of setup and switch out able to do so again. The numerous support sets of Tomohawk do this very, very well. Tomohawk's most infamous sets are Reflect Haze and the LO attacker, but it's seen plenty of SR sets, Spin sets, and even Toxic Stall sets.

Which aspects of Tomohawk's role are least healthy for the metagame? How can these concerns be addressed?

The most unhealthy aspect of Tomohawk is that while it does have a variety of useful and powerful support sets, those all have checks and counters that get severely upended by the Life Orb set. When Prankster was selected, the primary idea in mind was not to use it as a priority Recovery move on a 3-Attack set. Yes, the LO set has a Taunt variant but that's mostly there to prevent opponents from healing the piles and piles of damage Tomohawk otherwise does. The key move I see as the issue is Earth Power. Flying/Ground coverage is immensely effective in the CAP metagame. Plasmanta, which should be a very effective check to Tomohawk instead fears coming in on an Earth Power. Now it's true Tomo LO could still OHKO with Hidden Power Ground, but HP Ground couldn't OHKO Manta if you ran it on one of the Support oriented sets. Mollux is similarly situated, where it could at least take a shot at HP Ground Tomo but is instantly KO'd by Earth Power.

For some background, when Tomohawk was made we decided our competitive movepools in the full submissions rather than separately. Earth Power was in the winning submission but was not in most of the submissions. Contrast Hurricane which was in a majority of submissions but not all of them. Nature Power was similarly niche to Earth Power. Here's the spreadsheet from the thread to illustrate just how different Tomohawk could have been competitively. The thrust is, I think Tomohawk's support sets flourish in part because many Pokemon that could check them simply don't on the off chance they get donked on the switch-in by an extremely viable coverage move, which donks them even without investment. This effectively makes Earth Power a Utility Move it would use over its STAB because it specifically removes threats that would make its support sets less viable.

Which Pokemon does Tomohawk counter that it should not counter? Which Pokemon should threaten Tomohawk that do not threaten it?

Continued from the last paragraph, Mollux and Plasmanta should threaten Tomohawk but they don't. Mega Metagross should be able to break down Tomohawk, but it too can be reliably 2HKO'd by uninvested Earth Power after Helmet Damage. Mega Metagross actually LOSES to Reflect-less support Hawks if it misses the ZH flinch, seeing as Hawk players have the luxury of waiting until they can predict its switchin and hit it with EP. Cyclohm is a great answer to support Hawks. It can't even revenge LO Hawk because Earth Power OHKO's it over half the time after SR damage.

Now the thing is, Tomohawk could replicate the Mega Metagross example with Heat Wave (barring its own accuracy issues), which it also has. Heat Wave is useless against Mollux, Plasmanta, and especially Cyclohm though.

 

[NumberCruncher]

Which aspects of Tomohawk's role are most healthy for the metagame? What beneficial functions does Tomohawk provide?

I think that Tomohawk's blanket checking of Colossoil, Tapu Bulu, and physical Pheromosa is actually pretty nice, as it keeps them from being overly dominant, despite how heavily the CAP metagame favors them. I like the fact that it can both remove and set hazards, especially given how important Stealth Rocks are in this metagame. This is probably going to be a controversial opinion, but I actually like that Tomohawk suppresses the power of Zygarde and a slew of Ultra Beasts with Haze.

Which aspects of Tomohawk's role are least healthy for the metagame? How can these concerns be addressed?

252 Atk Aerilate Pinsir-Mega Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 350-414 (84.5 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

Basically, this calc shows that Mega-Pinsir's Return, literally the strongest physical attack in the tier that's super-effective against Tomohawk, doesn't even knock it out from full, and this is a Reflect-less set. I do appreciate Tomohawk being extremely good against certain physical attacker. I do not like that Tomohawk is good against basically every physical attacker. Very few mons in the tier have Tomohawk's level of bulk, and among the ones that do, few have no 4x weaknesses.

Fewer still have access to Tomohawk's sheer offensive capabilities. Hurricane/Earth Power/Nature Power is absolutely backbreaking power. Hurricane hits everything that doesn't resist it extremely hard, and Earth Power destroys everything that was resisting Hurricane. Add in priority Tri-Attacks that sometimes turn into priority Thunderbolt and Moonblast and the power becomes unreal. Tomohawk is probably in the top 5 best walls in the tier, and the top 10 best offensive beaters in the tier, which is an absurd combination.

Which Pokemon does Tomohawk counter that it should not counter? Which Pokemon should threaten Tomohawk that do not threaten it?

If I listed everything Tomohawk is way too good against that it shouldn't be good against, I'd be here all day, so here are some highlights.

Cyclohm and Mollux - Lose to the Life Orb set
Plasmanta and Tapu Koko - Can't switch into the Life Orb set.
Cawmodore - Not only loses its Belly Drum, but actually loses 1v1 vs the defensive set even with Acrobatics unless it makes every prediction correct.
Mega-Metagross - Loses to both LO set and defensive set without a lucky Zen Headbutt flinch.
Mega-Pinsir - At full, it fails to OHKO and gets knocked out by the defensive set.
SpDef Celesteela and Skarmory - Lose to the Life Orb set under Electric terrain.

 

[Bughouse]

I think Prankster itself is the original problem and Tomohawk could largely be solved by removing Prankster and instead increasing its speed somewhat (since its roosts and other support moves should still be useful in many circumstances... just not literally 100%). That does buff the special attacking sets, but coupled along with removing Earth Power which should never have been on the set since it basically makes Aurumoth's best sets one where its fighting typing is purely used for the rock neutrality.. those should get less strong as well.

Intimidate is still a very good ability so I'm not too worried that Tomohawk would fall off the face of the earth without Prankster.


PS I hate removing an ability... but it's the only thing I can see making much of an impact.

 

[snake]

Which aspects of Tomohawk's role are most healthy for the metagame? What beneficial functions does Tomohawk provide?

While my opinion may be unpopular among some, Prankster Haze does quell the many set up sweepers that could be terrorizing the meta right now. "But snake! One move on one mon can't possibly do that!" If you're Tomohawk, you can. Because Tomohawk is pretty splashable, slapping Prankster Haze as the big red button isn't too difficult, and the threat of that causes many teams to bring wincons that can either a) break Tomohawk without setting up or b) beat Tomohawk regardless. This brings some variety into the metagame and most notably makes us not OU 2.0. I think Prankster Haze is fine.

Which aspects of Tomohawk's role are least healthy for the metagame? How can these concerns be addressed?

The least healthy part of Tomohawk's role comes with the ease that LO Tomohawk can muscle past its checks and counters. I think this problem mainly stems from Earth Power. Hurricane is a natural STAB that misses a bunch, and while this isn't really a good argument, 70% accuracy makes it a little riskier to use. Prankster Nature Power is a really neat option that I feel is ok just because Tomohawk doesn't have that great speed anyways, and you give up the chance to run Taunt or another move that Tomohawk would want to run also. However, Earth Power is just too much. While it's a great move on defensive sets (letting it beat Mega Crucibelle 1v1 without Air Slashing it to death, chipping switch-ins), offensively it's just too much.

Reflect makes Tomohawk's defensive sets absurd. One could argue that Tomohawk is just giving up one of its moveslots to run a move that makes it super defensive and that Reflect is kind of worthless, but in conjunction with Rocky Helmet, Prankster Haze, and Prankster Roost, it's just a dumb move that chips down even Mega Metagross.

Horror in the form of numbers

252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk through Reflect: 144-169 (34.7 - 40.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

tl;dr, Earth Power and Reflect make Tomohawk stupid when otherwise it's completely fine in our metagame.

Which Pokemon does Tomohawk counter that it should not counter? Which Pokemon should threaten Tomohawk that do not threaten it?

Tapu Koko, Plasmanta, Volkraken, Mollux, Krilowatt, Kitsunoh, Mega Crucibelle, more offensive Jirachi, and non-AV Magearna look like they should at least check LO Tomohawk, given that they either resist both STABs or take neutral from Fighting-type STAB...but nope! Tomohawk runs Earth Power over Fighting-type STAB and mauls most of them over.

Hard hitting physical Psychic- and Fairy-types (Mega Metagross, Mega Mawile, Hoopa-U) should be able to crack open Tomohawk, even through Roost stalling, but Reflect makes that a non-issue.

Pokemon like Kyurem-B look like they can hit Tomohawk enough to knock it out, but, in Kyurem-B's case, they hit the Flying-type super effectively. Therefore, Tomohawk can Roost stall them out. I don't think Prankster recovery is terrible, but I do think this is a little bit of an issue.

I think Prankster itself is the original problem and Tomohawk could largely be solved by removing Prankster and instead increasing its speed somewhat (since its roosts and other support moves should still be useful in many circumstances... just not literally 100%). That does buff the special attacking sets, but coupled along with removing Earth Power which should never have been on the set since it basically makes Aurumoth's best sets one where its fighting typing is purely used for the rock neutrality.. those should get less strong as well.

Intimidate is still a very good ability so I'm not too worried that Tomohawk would fall off the face of the earth without Prankster.


PS I hate removing an ability... but it's the only thing I can see making much of an impact.

Just saw this, we aren't changing stats since that creates too many unknowns regarding updates. This was decided in the PRC thread I believe.

 

[Bughouse]

Well, that's a dubious decision as a blanket policy, since many real Pokemon have actually gotten stat changes from generation to generation. Certainly more than have had an ability removed, which we seem to have still on the table.

If it's the best path (not saying my way necessarily is... that's just my opinion) it should not be barred procedurally.

 

[G-Luke]

Which aspects of Tomohawk's role are most healthy for the metagame? What beneficial functions does Tomohawk provide?

Prankster Haze is actually very useful, as it allows defensive sets to stop a hoarde of offensive set up sweepers, and allows defensive teams to not rely too much on Unaware Pokémon. Its typing is actually really good defensively as well, checking prominent threats such as Tapu Bulu, physical Pheromosa and Colossoil quite well. Tomo is also quite splashable with access to Stealth Rock, Rapid Spin and Taunt let it be quite sversatile. Unfortunately the sheer effectiveness of Tomo's LO and Reflect Haze sets draw away from this.

Which aspects of Tomohawk's role are least healthy for the metagame? How can these concerns be addressed?

Continuing from above, LO and Reflect Haze are abit too strong for the metagame to handle. It has been gone over plenty of times so I will not hammer away at a flattened metal plate, but when Mega Metagross, which hits supereffectively and hits hard is a shaky check to its defensive set shows just how powerful it is.

Offensive Tomohawk aint as bad, but two things stand out to me that makes it unbareable. Earth Power and in some cases Nature Power. Everyone has hinted at why Earth Power is busted, but Nature Power in combination with Prankster allows it to revengekill many a things it shouldn't, especially with Terrains all over the place. I think offensive Tomo should run a combination of offensive attacks and utility options.

 

[Blackdrakon30]

I don't have much to say on the set questions; everyone else has essentially answered them far better than I could. I agree that Earth Power is a large problem, and needs to be removed the most. However, I do want to point out that Prankster seems pretty stupid. You know that something's wrong when a Pokemon never runs Intimidate while having it; despite it being one of the best moves in the game. Prankster puts a lot of pressure on many Pokemon and highhandedly invalidates setup in the CAP tier unless the setup Pokemon carries coverage that can break through defensive Tomohawk. Haze I dislike, but I don't think would be an issue without Prankster.

 

[SHSP]

Personally, I don't think Haze/Prankster are the problems with Hawk, and that a lot more blame has to be put onto Earth Power/its offensive capabilities and the rest of the utility it brings. Defensive Hawk acting as a stop to setup sweepers is an aspect I don't find particularly bad for the metagame- I agree a lot with what Snake said- but when it haze's your sweeper, sets/removes rocks, and chips whatever mon is in front of it- all in one set, mind you- it gets to be a lot more utility for one mon that pushes it over the edge to being an S rank, top of the crop metagame-shaping force it is. Reflect is just beyond dumb, as previously mentioned, and I feel defensively it needs to be toned down heavily- just not by ridding itself of roost/haze/prankster.

Offensive Hawk is the thing that really seems to break Tomo in a way. Earth Power's ridiculous, Nature Power got even more ridiculous with terrains, and I really disagree with the idea that such a defensive juggernaut can have this heavy of an offensive presence. I agree with Deck here on how LO/Offensive Hawk makes it far harder to check and to handle at all.

 

[HeaLnDeaL]

Hawk's Haze in my opinion is one of the "healthier" moves / sets it has. Particularly now with UBs running around, Tomohawk's ability to stop the opponent's momentum via getting rid of stat boosts is a very valued and beneficial aspect to the metagame. CAP has deadly set up sweepers like Aurumoth or Cawmodore that Tomohawk potentially risks its life to stop but such as risk is overall healthy as it creates some ways to stop prominent threat.

Overall I'm somewhat torn on Prankster. The issues were are discussing (haze, reflect, taunt) stem from the way Prankster works. Tomohawk would undoubtedly be a less viable mon without Prankster and its removal would treat the problems that have surfaced... but at the same time it would also severely deter its ability to be a "healthy" hazer. There are also questions regarding if Tomohawk's "identity" is in danger if prankster is removed, and beyond that I am completely unconvinced that we should be artificially lowering Tomohawk's viability.

I firmly believe that we shouldn't try to too hard to balance the metagame with these updates, and I feel like far too many people are trying to do exactly that. I think the rise of the tapus has gen7 z fly stuff have made Tomohawk have more threatening checks and counters than ever before, and ultimately I don't think any removals are necessary on Tomohawk. It has a healthy aspect in Haze and some potentially unhealthy aspects regarding its physical defense/reflect, but we shouldn't be striving to nerf something unless it's blatantly good / broken, and I don't think Tomohawk is currently at that level.

I really wish we could have just had simple generational updates by gamefreak standards with only a talk of new gen moves would be discussed, but rip.

 

[Granny Pie]

Which aspects of Tomohawk's role are most healthy for the metagame? What beneficial functions does Tomohawk provide?
In my short time here, I've really gotten to see Haze Hawk up close and personal, as my preferred play style involved a lot of setup, and thus bringing several Pokemon and sets that would potentially wincon a battle. Prankster Haze makes me look at the OU metagame differently, as it points out and quite severely defeats Pokemon that would, in an OU setting, setup and win. It forces me to evaluate Pokemon differently, and to think differently, allowing me a new insight into competitive battling. He redefines "momentum", and all-in-all makes the metagame more intelligent, more forced to make smart, tactical choices instead of just sending out Aurumoth and clicking Quiver Dance to win, or sending out Dragonite and clicking Dragon Dance to win, or sending out a Choiced Pheromosa and clicking... Uh... Anything to win. He has forced offensive teams to, if not play, then at least plan more conservatively, making even Hyper-Offense teams require an extra touch of strategy and planning just with his presence on the Team Review screen.
Which aspects of Tomohawk's role are least healthy for the metagame? How can these concerns be addressed?
Fortunately, or unfortunately, depending on how you look at it, I have not seen a lot of Reflect Hawk, and have personally only heard of its broken ways in text and calculations. Maybe he just hasn't seen as much use, what with the rise of powerful Special Fairy types and Psychic types. That being said, I hope almost hope I never see it. The legends themselves are terrifying enough. I don't want to live through that. Even today, people are running things such as Flynium Gyarados and Landorus-T, just to try and beat normal Tomohawk. Imagine throwing a Supersonic Skystrike at this thing behind a Reflect. You don't have to; here are some numbers:
252+ Atk Landorus-Therian Supersonic Skystrike (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk through Reflect: 262-310 (63.2 - 74.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
And then Tomohawk's trainer just clicks Roost. Priority Roost. While your Landorus just sits there, stunned. That's not right.
Which Pokemon does Tomohawk counter that it should not counter? Which Pokemon should threaten Tomohawk that do not threaten it?
He shouldn't counter Flynium-Z. Ever. Not even behind a Reflect. He should check a weakened Mega-Meta with Earth Power. Not wall a completely healthy one with Reflect. Tomohawk should have extensive support to do that. Not a priority Wall that he can set up himself. I'm fine with him walling an absurdly large part of the metagame, but only with lots of help. He shouldn't just blanket check every physical attacker ever with his own Reflect. Priority Roost? Great. I love it. Forces us to be creative. Earth Power? Great. I love it. It just shouldn't be used over his STAB on defensive sets. Maybe make Earth Power incompatible with Rapid Spin, Toxic, Stealth Rock, and the like? I love Earth Power on Roost + 3 Attacks sets. It rounds him out nicely, offensively. Reflect? No. Please. God no. I don't want to live the legendary nightmares.
"Reflect Tomohawk: If it sounds like it's broken, looks like it's broken, and plays like it's broken, then it's broken."
--Granny Pie, 2k17
"Earth Power Tomohawk: If it ain't broke, don't fix it."
--Granny Pie, 2k17

 

[Airwind]

Which aspects of Tomohawk's role are most healthy for the metagame? What beneficial functions does Tomohawk provide?
The set more balanced imo is the LO i know sound werid but like a special sweeper now is not to good like in gen 6 all AV user kill tomo but still a nice special sweeper
Which aspects of Tomohawk's role are least healthy for the metagame? How can these concerns be addressed?
Imo Haze/reflect is the most broken tomo just wall all the defensive sweeper with reflect resist a fly z of landorus, resist mega metagross, Head smash of M crucibelle. sorry if i dont explain my english is bad :c

 

[Okamu]

Ok, I guess I'll try and chime in here. In terms of unhealthiness versus healthiness, I personally find little faults. I agree Earth Power is something we should consider carefully, for reasons I'll get into a bit later, but other than that, I struggle to find faults. I will come out and say that Reflect/Haze hawk sounds very scary and oppressive. However, I, as someone else has also noted previously, have never seen this set used. Far more frequently I see Haze, Roost, Air Slash, Filler. Whether that filler happens to be Stealth Rock, Rapid Spin, Earth Power, or Taunt or Toxic varies, but in general, I see that defensive set up far more than I have ever seen a Reflect. I'm not against removing it, but I would like to know if this is actually as common of a problem as people are saying, since arguing over theoretical situations can lead down a rabbit hole that we really don't want to go down. For hawk's offensive capabilities, again, Earth Power is my main (and really only) concern. The negative impacts of the move mostly boil down to the fact that it allows Tomo to bust through things it shouldn't.

At this point, I'd like to address something that has irked me greatly: people suggesting getting rid of Prankster and Haze. I am fully aware that the Momentum concept is not meant to be a huge driving force in revisions here, but Prankster Haze is perhaps one of the few sets that actually meets that concept. It changes a sweep into a better situation by immediately removing boosts in exchange for taking one attack. Whether the attack KOs or not isn't really important here, it's the fact that momentum is slowed down back to a bit more of a balance. To me, suggesting that Haze or Prankster be removed is like taking away the part of Tomo that actually made some conceptual sense. Yes, Reflect/Haze can be terrible to deal with if you see it, and yes, Life Orb Roost with 2 or 3 attacks can be a pain, but the problem with those sets isn't inherently Prankster or Haze, it's the fact that the overall combination of moves like Reflect and Haze or Earth Power and Hurricane combine to make Tomo the beast that it is. I guess what I'm trying to say is, instead of taking out a good core, why not snip off the extraneous bits to solve the problem?

As has been mentioned before, checks and counters should be very slightly expanded at a max through the changes. There's doesn't, in my opinion, need to be a massive overhaul in what Tomo can do, just a pruning back of the worst parts of it. For me, this boils mostly down to Electric types being dismissed with Earth Power. With the type advantage, an Electric type with at least some bulk or power should be able to take on Tomo. However, do to the flying-type negating effects of Roost combined with a surprisingly strong LO Earth Power, not all electric types that should be able to handle hawk, actually can. To me, the easiest solution to this is to remove Earth Power. It still has Heat Wave to hit steel types on switch-in if you get the predict, but it allows for Tomo to have a bit more play-around-ability by allowing electric types to slip in. It also means that Tomo doesn't instantly win against mons such as Plasmanta, Cruci, or Mollux simply b merit of being bulky enough to survive a hit and then firing back with a powerful 4x effective move. Since I mentioned Roost, I guess I'll explain why I believe that isn't a big deal. Really, the only types that really suffer from Roost's side-effects are Electric and Ice, since Rock only hits neutrally in the first place. Ice types are weak to one of Tomo's STABs, so switching them in is risky unless you have the free in and are faster than hawk and can OHKO or can take a Life Orb Focus Blast. For the fact that Tomo has ways around ice types, I personally don't see them as particularly suffering from the Roost problem as much as electric types, who suffer from the extraneous Earth Power.

So, just in a short summary here, I agree that Earth Power should be looked into and Reflect possibly as well. I fundamentally disagree with getting rid of Haze or Prankster due to the humungous role they play in Tomo's defensive identity. Lastly, I feel that Electric types should serve as checks and counters to Tomo just to make it a bit easier to work around, and this can be accomplished in a good part through removing Earth Power.

 

[reachzero]

So far, it seems that there is strong opinion in terms of two major issues with Tomohawk in the metagame. One is with Reflect, the other is with Earth Power. Interestingly, there is much more community support for Haze that I had anticipated before this process began.

However, there is strong disagreement regarding Prankster, which is an issue so fundamental to Tomohawk that it should be addressed right away. As of now, everything that Tomohawk does powerfully, from Haze to Roost stall, it does because of Prankster. If changing Prankster is in any way a serious consideration, that has to be discussed now. This raises two questions:

1. If we were to change Prankster, what would we change it to, and why should we do it? What impact on the metagame would this have (please be specific)?

2. Tomohawk's identity, as noted in the OP, is dual: it has a bulky utility focus, and a LO attacker focus. The LO attacker set would not be in danger even with the loss of Prankster. How would Tomohawk's metagame role be impacted by changing Prankster? Is Prankster essential to its identity?

 

[Granny Pie]

1. If we were to change Prankster, what would we change it to, and why should we do it? What impact on the metagame would this have (please be specific)?
If we absolutely, no other choice, had to change Prankster, I think we should change it to another momentum-generating ability: Magic Bounce. The ability to come in on a defensive Pokemon and force it out to avoid laying Status all over its own side is the only thing that comes close to regaining the type of momentum Prankster can create in conjunction with Roost.
Unaware would also be another viable ability, making him able to ignore all stat changes right before he Hazes them away. Tomohawk's defensive momentum often hinges on his ability to negate stat boosts with Priority Haze, but Unaware + normal Haze copies that factor very well, while still weakening his other powers, such as priority Roost, Toxic, or Taunt.

2. Tomohawk's identity, as noted in the OP, is dual: it has a bulky utility focus, and a LO attacker focus. The LO attacker set would not be in danger even with the loss of Prankster. How would Tomohawk's metagame role be impacted by changing Prankster? Is Prankster essential to its identity?
Prankster makes defensive Tomohawk. Plain and simple. Priority Haze, Taunt, Toxic, Stealth Rock, and more is the one thing he has over other defensive Pokemon like Mega-Sableye or Toxapex. Tomohawk makes the impact he does because of his unique defensive capabilites. There are many other, often better options for a Life Orb Special Attacker. Greninja, Pheromosa, Aurumoth, Syclant, the list goes on and on. There are no Pokemon who can do what defensive Tomohawk does. None. Prankster makes him powerfully unique, and is essential to who he is a Pokemon and a metagame defining force.

 

[Deck Knight]

I'll answer the second question first: Prankster is totally essential to Tomohawk's identity. In fact, I would argue the Life Orb set's prominence is an aberration in Tomohawk's identity brought on specifically by Earth Power. If "Momentum" were just synonymous with "powerful sweeper" then the metagame is chock full of immensely good "Momentum" Pokemon and we need not bother altering Tomohawk at all anyway. Prankster Roost certainly helps keep the LO set alive, but Roost Charizard X does pretty much the same thing since it is so difficult to outspeed after a Dragon Dance or two.

Instead, what Prankster does and specifically Prankster Haze, is completely alter the general effectiveness of stat-boosting sweepers by forcing them to account for there being a Pokemon that can actually threaten them after their setup is Hazed away (which Murkrow cannot do). It doesn't make them useless, after all Haze merely resets their boosts. They can switch out, heal, or do a multitude of other things on the turn Tomohawk is Hazing. But it does prevent a great deal of offensive breaking strategies which rely on multiple stat boosters of the same type to overwhelm the opposing team.

Now, onto the subject of Prankster Reflect. Let us take for granted the assumption Reflect is too powerful. Why is this the case? I do not think it is the simple doubling of Tomohawk's effective defense, it is the fact Tomohawk can set up Reflect, Roost back up to full health, and have the entire team take half physical damage for the next 3 turns as well. That said, Reflect does have weaker substitutions that retain Tomohawk's own personal ability to deal with strong physical sweepers without conferring additional support turns to Tomohawk's entire team against the opponent's entire team. Both Feather Dance / Charm and Iron Defense would achieve this, and neither of those moves have good synergy with Haze itself, which is all for the better considering the contours of the previous discussion. Prankster is not the culprit of Reflect after Haze being incredibly powerful, Reflect's own specifics and compatibility with Haze's effect do that.

Unlike Reflect and Earth Power which have inferior substitutions that can remove their overwhelming contributions to Tomohawk's presence, Prankster does not have a parallel ability remotely as beneficial. Triage would replicate Prankster for Roost, but Roost is honestly an aside when it comes to Prankster's reason for existence. You know it's funny, I actually looked over the original thread (Secondary Ability Discussion) and while there are several mentions of Prankster with Taunt and Encore (Tomo only got Taunt), there are actually *zero* mentions of Haze or Reflect. Tomohawk actually made Haze into a viable momentum stealing move. Reflect compounds Haze's strength, but Reflect's negative overreaches can be substituted for, Haze is Haze is Haze.

Tomohawk without Prankster is a middling-speed threat with a slightly stronger Hurricane than Tornadus-T, near zero ability to affect the momentum of stat-up sweepers, too slow to Taunt anything with Dragon Dance without shredding its bulk, too slow to avoid being picked off by any number of threats that had difficulty overcoming priority Roost, and while Intimidate could cushion against Flyinium-Z Lando and similar threats, Tomohawk would in no way be able to even alter the pace of the opponent's momentum. Arguably without Prankster the only set Tomohawk would use is the Life Orb set and maybe Rapid Spin, but it certainly would not be a force to be reckoned with in the CAP Metagame.

 

[jas61292]

Let be start off by saying this: as Generation Leader, it is my job to make sure the changes we make are not only supported by intelligent concensus, but also to name sure that we are following the principles rules we put in place for this project. One of these principles is about the CAP Pokémon's established identities, and I am glad that is something reach has brought up here.

That being said, in my personal opinion, Prankster is Tomohawk, at least when it comes to its identity, and while I am not going to make any difinitive statements until I hear any arguments people might have, I would be hard pressed to say that removing Prankster is something that should be allowed within our principles.

While it is true that Offensive Tomo is a thing (I personally find it overrated, but it is a thing), and it would not be that changed in theory without Prankster, I still say its identity is defined by that ability. What I mean by this is that Tomohawk is a Pokemon with mediocre offense and bad speed for an offensive Pokemon. The only reason it is a very effective offensive Pokemon is because the defensive sets, defined by Prankster (and especially Prankster Roost) are so good and popular. It's main draw is the ability to beat a number of Pokemon who would switch in expecting the more common defensive sets. If these defining defensive sets weren't a thing, no one would use offensive Tomo regularly, because it is not that impressive as an offensive Pokemon compared to the tiers top offensive threats. And again, the defensive sets that allow it to shine are defined by Prankster.

I'm certainly interested to hear other people's views on this, and I am not going to be close minded if people make good arguments. But frankly, it will be very difficult to convince me that removing Prankster would not be absolutely gutting Tomohawk's identity.

 

[Snorlax in the way]

Time for me to take a stance and post in this discussion, all be it a bit late.

The main thing I wanted to talk about in my post was defensive Tomohawk, with the two main points being Haze, and Reflect. Some things came up, and I did not get to post as early as I would have liked to. Saying that, I realize Reflect generally is seen as in need of removal, for all the same reasons I have, so I will not speak on it. Haze on the other hand, has some serious debate, so I'd like to throw my two cents in.

Haze is an outstanding aspect of defensive Tomohawk's arsenal. For anyone who has talked to reach about the Tomohawk process, it is widely known that he actually slated Haze to help beat Landorus-I and Excadrill in the permanent sand that gen V had to offer. Now I bring this up, to make reference to Tomohawk's concept during gen V, which was in general a concept based around gaining or regaining momentum. Obviously on paper, Haze sounds perfect for this, the opponent gets their sweeper ready, you predict and use Haze against them, they no longer have momentum. In practice, however, Tomohawk goes far beyond just grabbing momentum. Tomohawk with Haze oversteps the line that is drawn between grabbing momentum, and saving a lost game. In essence it becomes a get out of jail free card, in case you play poorly. This is truly my main gripe about HazeHawk, it oversteps its boundaries into territory that it should not dip into. Saving a game that has been lost is much more than simply just grabbing momentum to me. "Stopping a sweeper is not that big of an offense to that archetype of Pokemon" is an argument that I have seem more than once, and to that I say, it really is. Stopping an entire archetype from doing what it does best plays a much more major role than people give it credit for. Finally, I would just like to say that losing Tomohawk to make a game recoverable, is not an equal trade, as long as you still have a chance to win after your Tomohawk is dead, you still come out on top.

 

[snake]

2. Tomohawk's identity, as noted in the OP, is dual: it has a bulky utility focus, and a LO attacker focus. The LO attacker set would not be in danger even with the loss of Prankster. How would Tomohawk's metagame role be impacted by changing Prankster? Is Prankster essential to its identity?

I disagree with the claim that The LO attacker set would not be in danger even with the loss of Prankster. Prankster is an integral part of the set, allowing Tomohawk to use priority Nature Power, Roost, or Healing Wish to its advantage. Taunt is mainly used for mons slower than Tomohawk, but it can be an emergency shut down for faster things I suppose. There's also the point that jasnumbers brought up; Tomohawk wouldn't have the LO set to surprise opponents expecting a defensive set if its defensive sets lost Prankster as well.

As people have said, Prankster = Tomohawk. We can argue all we want about moves and how effectively it uses them, but removing Prankster, in my mind, would kill Tomohawk.

 

[reachzero]

Okay! So it seems like there is pretty clear agreement that Prankster is acceptable to remain as is, and even that it is part of Tomohawk's most established identity. This allows is to come directly to the question of Reflect and Earth Power, which were identified as issues in the first phase of discussion. Before we can proceed to determining whether Tomohawk should acquire any additional competitive moves and any consistency updates, let's settle the issue of whether it should retain Reflect and Earth Power, or whether we should remove them.

Do you believe that Earth Power and Reflect are balanced on Tomohawk and healthy for the metagame? Why or why not?

This phase of discussion will be followed by a vote.

 

[LucarioOfLegends]

Do you believe that Earth Power and Reflect are balanced on Tomohawk and healthy for the metagame? Why or why not?

In a word, no. But let me elaborate.

Reflect, although I have only encountered it a few times myself, is something not to be trifled with. On something like Tomohawk, 105/90 physical bulk is fairly good, and greatly contributes to its longevity. But it can still be taken down with enough power. Now, along with that nice bulk, give it the ability to half physically damage for a certain number of turns, and can be refreshed with priority. That is Tomohawk's Reflect. This turns Mega Metagross, who is one of the strongest physical attackers of the tier, into only a 3HKO with super effective STAB Tough Claws boosted Zen Headbutt. Combine this with priority healing in Roost, and Tomohawk becomes a near impregnable physical wall that stops attackers dead in their tracks. That is far too much power.

Earth Power, on the contrary, is more offensive in nature. Earth Power gives Tomo the ability to check Pokemon like Plasmanta, Mollux, Cyclohm, Krillowatt, and countless more I can't name because I'm on mobile. But wait, shouldn't those Pokemon be able to check or even counter Tomo?! They check its STAB moves and typing, but Earth Power is so incredibly good of coverage that it beats its C&C. Flying/Ground Coverage is insanely good in CAP, if you can't tell from how great Lando-T is right now. As it hits almost the entire metagame for neutral damage. Furthermore, this singular coverage move makes players totally ignore its entire Fighting move roster for defensive set.

 

[Snorlax in the way]

I choose, in this general situation, to pass over tomohawk's offensive set. The set is extremely powerful, but I will let others decide whether Earth Power is a make or break move. I personally do not like it, but that is obviously not enough to try and advocate for its removal, in my case. However, I will speak on reflect hawk, as my main gripe is with the defensive set.

Reflect hawk is the biggest defensive check in the entire tier. It single handedly walls every physical attacker in the metagame, aside from mega shark, but if you're using that are you really trying? Anyways, yeah, its extremely silly, and I'm glad there isn't really much advocacy for it to stay, because that would also be really silly.

Yes, I am aware some of these are 2hkos, the point was to show the damage, not necessarily that hawk can live. (priority roost rocky helm stall to stop massive threats is cool.)

Calculators are Cool

252 Atk Choice Band Hoopa-Unbound Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk through Reflect: 177-208 (42.7 - 50.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
Under Psychic Terrain: 252 Atk Choice Band Hoopa-Unbound Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk through Reflect: 264-312 (63.7 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk through Reflect: 144-169 (34.7 - 40.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Aerilate Pinsir-Mega Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk through Reflect: 175-207 (42.2 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk through Reflect: 214-253 (51.6 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Landorus-Therian Supersonic Skystrike (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk through Reflect: 262-310 (63.2 - 74.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Tapu Bulu Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk through Reflect: 111-131 (26.8 - 31.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk through Reflect: 189-223 (45.6 - 53.8%) -- 45.3% chance to 2HKO

In my opinion, haze should also go because of its ability to grab a game back from the dead and into a winnable situation, but apparently cap is chill with this. So if it doesn't leave, I won't be complaining.

 

[snake]

Reflect in conjunction with Prankster Roost makes it too good. If it only affected Tomo, maybe it'd be ok, but since it also helps out its teammates, I think it's just too good. Not going to bog down discussion repeating what every's said though.

As for Earth Power, you could make the argument that Tomohawk has this coverage move, so you have to prepare for it, but there's the problem. Even with team preview, it can be hard to tell whether Tomohawk is running defensive or LO. The moment you switch in the wrong switch-in into Tomohawk, most of the time the check or counter takes too much damage from Hurricane or Earth Power, and then your team can't recover from that. Is it a question of preparation for LO Tomohawk? Yes, but Tomohawk's capacity to turn the tables on a battle just because of this coverage move both makes its C&C really small AND makes it too hard for the opponent to recover. The removal of Earth Power won't dent in LO Tomohawk's viability too much because it does have STAB Aura Sphere and Focus Blast (relying on Hurricane and Focus Blast though LOL), but it does give the metagame some breathing room for its C&C.

Tomohawk @ Life Orb / Fightinium Z / Flyinium Z
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature / Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hurricane
- Aura Sphere / Focus Blast
- Nature Power / Taunt
- Roost / Healing Wish

Still a potent threat and can flip battles just like Earth Power LO Tomohawk, but not to such an extreme that makes the set so infuriating to face.

 

[Mova]

Wait, if Tomohawk has to rely on Aura Sphere and Hurricane, wouldn't the offensive set work best on rain teams due to the nice accuracy boost? But yeah, Tomohawk shouldn't have Earth Power because of many reasons stated above, though I'll reiterate that Earth Power hits many would-be counters of the Electric, Poison, and Fire typings. Okay, Fire isn't that relevant, but Ohmagod Plasmanta gets hit way too hard by that coverage move.