CAP 36 - Part 4 - Ability Discussion

[kenn]

CAP 36 So Far

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Please pay very close attention to earthflax's posts during this thread and remain on topic. DO NOT begin by posting massive lists of abilities!

Some general rules for this discussion:

• Custom abilities are banned. No exceptions. Posts suggesting custom abilities will be deleted.
• There are ability banlists for the different stages of ability discussion. Posts suggesting banned abilities will be deleted.
• Flavor abilities do not have any place in this thread. Do not bring up flavor reasoning. Posts that rely on flavor reasoning will be deleted.

The following abilities are banned from this discussion:

Fully Banned Abilities group

Arena Trap
As One
Aura Break
Bad Dreams
Battle Bond
Beads Of Ruin
Beast Boost *
Chilling Neigh
Commander
Dark Aura
Dauntless Shield
Delta Stream
Desolate Land
Disguise
Dragon's Maw
Fairy Aura
Flower Gift
Forecast
Full Metal Body
Grim Neigh
Gulp Missile
Hadron Engine
Hunger Switch
Ice Face
Illusion
Imposter
Intrepid Sword
Moody
Multitype
Neuroforce
Orichalcum Pulse
Power Construct
Primordial Sea
Prism Armor
Protosynthesis *
Quark Drive *
RKS System
Schooling
Shadow Shield
Shadow Tag
Shields Down
Soul Heart
Stance Change
Sword Of Ruin
Tablets Of Ruin
Teravolt
Transistor
Turboblaze
Unseen Fist
Vessel Of Ruin
Victory Star
Wonder Guard
Zen Mode
Zero To Hero

* These abilities will only be unbanned on a concept which is based around this ability - Such as an Ultra Beast or Paradox Pokemon

Soft Banned Abilities group

These abilities are banned by default and should not be discussed barring exceptional cases. If you believe one of these abilities should be considered, you can make a post trying to explain why an exception is warranted in this specific case and if both the TL and Ability Leader agree, it will be allowed. If the TLT disagrees with the unbanning proposal, they should be considered fully banned and should not be further discussed.

Bulletproof
Color Change*
Defeatist
Dry Skin
Earth Eater
Flash Fire
Fur Coat
Good As Gold
Gorilla Tactics
Huge Power
Ice Scales
Libero*
Levitate
Lightning Rod
Magic Bounce
Magic Guard
Magnet Pull
Mimicry*
Motor Drive
Parental Bond
Protean*
Pure Power
Purifying Salt
Regenerator
Sap Sipper
Slow Start
Stall
Storm Drain
Truant
Volt Absorb
Water Absorb
Water Bubble
Well Baked Body
Wind Rider

*These abilities can only be considered for an unban if the Ability stage is done before typing.

Secondary Ability ban group

Comatose
Drizzle
Drought
Electric Surge
Fluffy
Grassy Surge
Innards Out
Misty Surge
Prankster
Psychic Surge
Sand Stream
Snow Warning
Speed Boost
Stamina
Steam Engine
Supreme Overlord
Toxic Debris
Triage

Flavor ability only ban group

Ball Fetch
Battery
Costar
Friend Guard
Healer
Honey Gather
Illuminate
Pickup
Power Spot
Power of Alchemy
Propeller Tail
Receiver
Run Away
Stalwart
Symbiosis
Telepathy

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Primary Ability banlist

Fully Banned Abilities group + Soft Banned Abilities group + flavor ability-only group

Secondary Ability banlist

Fully Banned Abilities group + Soft Banned Abilities group + secondary ability group + flavor ability-only group

Flavor Ability banlist

Primary ability group + secondary ability group

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I'll now hand this over to earthflax to make the first post in the thread. Please have a good discussion.

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Ability banlist PRC threads:

• US/UM: http://www.smogon.com/forums/posts/7391668
• SW/SH: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/3659245/
• S/V: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/3715273/

 

[earthflax]

I'm back. You're back. Let's get rolling with questions.

• Does our Ability need to carry significant utility in both forms? Is it more important for one form to use our ability well than the other?

We tread a fine line for this process: Is the search for maximizing utility for both forms one that should be happening? Obviously Abilities are and always have been an integral part of Pokemon -- CAPs or not -- and there is a reason that the Ability stage is both well-established and very early in the CAP process. However, there is a level of trade-off that will occur when looking to identify Abilities that fit either form particularly well, especially considering the wide difference in roles between our two forms, and especially the interaction between these two forms as outlined in the concept. These are all things that lead me to ask where the priority lies as far as Ability goes.

• What type of Abilities are best-suited towards fulfilling the concept and framework?

I don't just mean generically good Abilities that would suit any Pokemon (though I do not discourage their mention). As a process, we are in the very unique position that our Ability is shared across both of our forms. As such, we tread a fine line as far as maximizing usability goes. Are there any types of Abilities in particular that would be useful in both "stages" of CAP36 as outlined by the concept? Any particular power level? Any specific category?

I want to clarify quickly that this will be our only Ability stage to remain analogous to Meloetta. Specific Ability suggestions are not yet open, but you are free to use examples as you answer the above questions, for which I'll set a tentative 48 hour deadline. Cheers!

 

[dex]

Does our Ability need to carry significant utility in both forms? Is it more important for one form to use our ability well than the other?

I think the ability should benefit both formes. I think some people are going to want it to lean vastly one way or the other (likely towards the song forme since that's the destination), but I think it is key that the ability provides a tangible benefit to both formes. That benefit doesn't necessarily need to be equal, but it should be at least meaningful to both formes.

What type of Abilities are best-suited towards fulfilling the concept and framework?

Honestly, there a tons of ways to go about this. Pokemon that are used for their defensive attributes often excel with offensive abilities (Buzzwole, Scizor) and Pokemon used most for their offensive attributes commonly excel with defensive abilities (Tyranitar, Volcarona). I don't think there's really any sort of classification that is usefully restrictive here, as you can make the case for a lot of stuff.

That said, I think CAP 36's ability should be generally powerful. It isn't hard for something that is classically good to give CAP 36 great benefit across both its formes. I don't think it's a requirement for the ability to be "generically good", but those abilities should not be looked over just because of their strength, which I think is very pro concept, seeing good use across both formes.

 

[Etharia]

Does our Ability need to carry significant utility in both forms? Is it more important for one form to use our ability well than the other?

I think it needs to carry some utility for both forms, but not necessarily to the same degree. Just as an example, an immunity ability is obviously more useful for the first form than it is for the second, but it’s still somewhat helpful for both. As long as the ability never feels like it never contributes to a form, I think it’s fine.

 

[chartung17]

Does our Ability need to carry significant utility in both forms? Is it more important for one form to use our ability well than the other?

There aren't many abilities that provide both offensive and defensive benefit. I think a defensive ability that helps the base form survive long enough to set up would be pro-concept, as would an offensive ability that helps the pirouette form at cleaning.

What type of Abilities are best-suited towards fulfilling the concept and framework?

I think the most pro-concept abilities would be ones that activate while CAP36 is in its base form but provide an offensive (or speed) boost that would be utilized by its pirouette form.

 

[Lightniong]

What up, first time I’m actually pitching in my thoughts on a new CAP in forever:

• Does our Ability need to carry significant utility in both forms? Is it more important for one form to use our ability well than the other?

I feel like it’s going to be very hard actually trying to choose an ability, as it’s hard pressed to find an ability that will favor one form more than the other. But I believe that having an ability that does favor one form over the other, especially an ability that greatly favors the defensive form, is a death sentence, as then this mon would have the most fatal flaw we can give it: why would you go through the hassle of switching forms when you can just commit to one? Pokemon, sadly, has the limitations of 4 moveslots, and if we give one form a significant edge, then we’ve essentially failed the concept. So yeah, I’d prefer having an ability that helps both forms about the same amount, as hard as that may be.

• What type of Abilities are best-suited towards fulfilling the concept and framework?

I honestly agree with dex on the point of the ability being generally good on both offensive and defensive moms (think of something like magic guard, immunity abilities, regenerator, etc. where both offensive Pokémon and defensive Pokémon can make use of it), but we can’t nessesarily add an amazing ability like Magic Guard or Regenerator, as it would either be too brokem, or, in the case of Regenerator, favor the defensive Mon over the offensive one.

 

[Ayecrusher King]

Does our Ability need to carry significant utility in both forms? Is it more important for one form to use our ability well than the other?

Echoing Lightniong , both forms should be able to extract some form of utility of equal value from the Ability. Any unequal pairing would essentially fail the concept, like if the defensive form can nullify one of its weaknesses while the offensive form can ignore said weakness, or if the offensive form's offense are tuned up which the defensive form can hardly use, both cases would not be ideal.

What type of Abilities are best-suited towards fulfilling the concept and framework?

Well, someone already had a concept that detailed this, so I'm just going to paraphrase one of their examples that I feel suits the discussion:
Abilities that grant an immunity while also boosting something would be most pro-concept.

 

[EpicUmbreon29]

Does our Ability need to carry significant utility in both forms? Is it more important for one form to use our ability well than the other?
Going to agree with Lightniong halfway in saying that giving too much favor to our defensive base form is a likely trap for failing the concept. Granted, we'd still make a perfectly usable (even good!) Pokemon, it just wouldn't be terribly incentivized to use the Pirouette form. If we invest too much in the base form's Ability to function on its own, then we shouldn't be surprised if and when teams add CAP 36 solely for its defensive utility, without even running CAP Song. After all, Heatran has been a viable to top tier defensive Pokemon for how many years - eighteen? - without recovery and with Abilities that aren't even crazy synergistic for its type?

All that said, my opinion diverges in that I think our Ability actually should favor our Pirouette form in some way. It should benefit both (in fact, it would probably be harder to find something that only benefits one), but the maximum benefits should only be accessible through transformation, in order to tip the scales in favor of running CAP Song and switching forms. Our Pirouette form is beginning at a significant structural disadvantage compared to our base form, since it will never be accessible on its own. So it will require a greater lift from our Ability to be viable compared to the base form.

What type of Abilities are best-suited towards fulfilling the concept and framework?

Are there any types of Abilities in particular that would be useful in both "stages" of CAP36 as outlined by the concept? Any particular power level? Any specific category?

Elaborating on my answer from Question 1, I think that any Ability which is too defensively or universally powerful runs us the risk of the optimal CAP 36 strategy being to run base form without CAP Song / Pirouette. Going to open here by cautioning against Abilities I think disincentivize our Pirouette form - this includes most Type immunity abilities, as well as some of the generalist utility Abilities on the Soft Ban list (see primarily: Regenerator, Magic Bounce, to a lesser extent Magic Guard - since it also has offensive use). Again, these are fantastic Abilities, and I think that's part of the problem - if these are what our base form is working with, then our Pirouette form likely just won't be able to stand on equal footing with it. I would really like to see us consider some more offensively-oriented abilities, which can still boost our power, utility, or reliability in our base form, but which become truly great when put to use for cleaning up post-transformation.

 

[aaronarium]

• What type of Abilities are best-suited towards fulfilling the concept and framework?

I think abilities that have a distinct moment in which they activate are very pro-concept. If CAP36's gameplay is divided into "before activating Pirouette form to clean" and "after activating Pirouette form to clean", I think that having an ability that can demarcate a specific moment where we should switch helps to incentivize the use of both forms. If our ability is one that is constant and active the whole time, then IMO we can't/shouldn't have a particularly defensive ability, otherwise we will stay in our Aria form to make the most of the defensive utility that should be allowing us to clean. And in that same scenario, IMO we can't/shouldn't have a particularly offensive ability, otherwise we're much more heavily incentivized to switch to our Pirouette form right away and become an offensive threat. Why not then frame the ability as something we are biding our time in order to be able to make use of, thereby forcing us to use our defensive utility until we can? To this end, something that skews offensive, but is not immediately powerful would be an ability I lean towards.

This also is my opinion on earth's other question:

• Does our Ability need to carry significant utility in both forms? Is it more important for one form to use our ability well than the other?

Simply put, in order to incentivize switching forms, our ability should be more useful to the Pirouette form than the Aria form. Regular Meloetta already presents the player with the problem (?) of whether or not you want to build around Pirouette form, or go the more reliable route of just using the base form with something like a CM or Choice set. Because the concept is predicated on switching forms period, this is not a luxury we have. Therefore, I think steps should be taken to ensure that remaining in our less-offensive Aria form comes with a strong opportunity cost, and making the ability less useful to it is a straightforward way of accomplishing that.

 

[Shock3600]

Does our Ability need to carry significant utility in both forms? Is it more important for one form to use our ability well than the other?
I think the ability should actually carry more value for the base defensive form than the second sweeper form. In order to actually fulfill the concept instead of simply clicking relic song every single time 36 is in, the base form needs to actually be a useful defensive mon. On the other hand, if the base form is too compotent of a defensive mon, it might never run song. In addition, 36 is most likely going to be more heavily investing in attack and speed than it's defences, making the challenge of making the base form compotent without it giving up song even harder- if you have good enough defensive profile why not run defensive investment and drop song? To me, the clearest way to do this is to make the defensive form capable without very much defensive investment but limit it in some form so that it can only get so much value without transforming. Ability gives us a clear way to inject value on the defensive side without making it too independent of the sweeper form.

 

[Velcroc]

Does our Ability need to carry significant utility in both forms? Is it more important for one form to use our ability well than the other?

There are 2 issues that set Meloetta back since its debut: Relic Song being a near useless move on the Pirouette form, and Serene Grace not synergizing with Pirouette. Ideally we don't make that same mistake, so the ability should, in theory, have readily available applications in both forms. There are plenty of existing abilities that can work on Pokemon both offensively and defensively, and we have historically seen "defensive" Pokemon with offensive abilities (Scizor, Buzzwole, and even the odd Volcarona).

Even though I am tempted to say we should focus on these mons equally, the concept is fundamentally asymmetrical. You will always start out with the Aria form, the Pirouette form is something that becomes relevant based on specific game dynamics i.e. something to consolidate / press an advantage or regain substantial lost footing. This means there are two almost contradictory goals here: we want the ability to be useful so that the Aria form has a viable niche in the metagame, but not too synergistic otherwise we wouldn't have a motivation to switch forms. This is why I also can't say that we should make it more useful for the Pirouette form because the other trap with this concept is that we focus on the Pirouette form at the expense of the Aria form's viability. Additionally, I think having an ability that only favours the Pirouette form makes the Pokemon linear even though the concept isn't. You don't need to transform in every game and, in fact, forgoing transformation entirely can allows the player to pack extra utility and potentially bluff a mid-late game threat at the expense of having said powerful late-game option (making the strategy non-optimal, but somewhat viable).

We need an ability that maximises the utility for the Aria form while also allowing the player to position for a potential Pirouette sweep or reversal. The ability should make the Aria form viable and multifaceted, whilst still favouring Pirouette slightly. Which brings me to the second question:

What type of Abilities are best-suited towards fulfilling the concept and framework?

My first thought was damage reduction abilities since both forms would appreciate that. Type-immune abilities and Drought seem like cop-outs, but something like Filter could work. Necrozma-Dusk Mane in Ubers has functioned effectively as both an offensive sweeper and a defensive stalwart with a similar ability. Filter can seem like a compromise though since it's defensive and offensive applications are middling in a vacuum. Similarly, abilities that punish contact (Flame Body, Static, Rough Skin, Aftermath) have historically seen offensive and defensive uses. However, they favour Aria a lot more.

I might have to agree with dex here. Just giving this mon as solid baseline ability should be fine for the most part. Even something like Adaptability has the benefit of making the base form less passive whilst boosting damage output for the Pirouette form. The mistake I made in my first impression was overthinking things. Giving CAP 36 a strong offensive ability fulfils the condition I outlined earlier fairly well.

 

[quziel]

Ability should do one of three things imo.

1) Make CAP 36 easier to position and use.
This category broadly is abilities that give a bit more longevity, free switchins, or help us just live longer. A huge problem for CAP 36 is going to be living long enough to both perform our defensive duties, and then transform and perform our offensive duties. Any ability that reduces damage, provides healing, or helps us get in will benefit this aspect.

2) Provide us with a free moveslot
This is another easy category. This pokemon will have significant 4mss, and as a result we will want abilities that effectively simulate a free moveslot. The easiest example, for basically any other typing, would be Moxie, which basically gives us a 5th moveslot that only has Howl in it. Other abilities that help with this will be good.

3) Provide us with a go-button.
This is heavily related to the previous bullet, but any ability that tells us now is the time to transform and clean is a good one. There's not a ton here, and they're broadly the same as 2), but all of them will be good.

 

[Guingil]

​

Does our Ability need to carry significant utility in both forms? Is it more important for one form to use our ability well than the other?

While I agree with Velcroc’s take about the ability slight favouring the pirouette forme, I do want to point out there is a potential trap to fail the concept depending on how exactly we do this. Compared to other cleaners, we are already at a disadvantage because CAP 36 does not come “ready made” to clean but needs to spend a turn setting up—making us closer to a setup sweeper. If the activation of an ability becomes essential to our cleaning prowess, this makes the mon even more situation dependent and we’d have to scamper around trying to manufacture the perfect situations to gain necessary offensive capacity. While this is okay for a pokémon that is a pure setup sweeper, which can be kept in the back and brought in at full health, a defensive role necessarily involves far more risk and uncertainty. So I think this way of boosting the pirouette forme is unreliable. Rather, I think the best ability is something that enables the aria forme to navigate these uncertainties of the defensive role to come out with something usable and semi-ready-made at the end (i.e., with enough health and un-statused), as quziel has mentioned as point #1 in his post.

As an additional point, a lot of the offensive prowess abilities are superfluous for a cleaner, which just needs enough to kill weakened mons. You don't need a Moxie separately if your forme change acts as one, for example, or damage reducing/increasing abilities with enough bulk or offensive stats on the formes. Such options could be an important differentiator between sets if we had multiple abilities, but since we're going with just one so this is a moot point.

Re: the concern that we’ll drop CAP Song and go full defensive, I think this can be assuaged by limiting the aria forme’s defensive scope and making the pirouette forme too good to miss out on. This is the delicate balance we identified in the assessment stage and I do not think the ability needs to bear the burden of enacting this. I think, in-battle, this would involve switching out and benching the aria forme because it's not useful anymore (for example, hazards are set, key threats to the cleaner are weakened, etc) OR the cleaner can provide so much value that it's better for us to save it. The enabling abilities make this decision-making easier by giving us a bit of a buffer, but I do think the usability limit of each forme should exist dynamically as a player’s choice in every battle rather than a predisposition given by ability. The ways to reward aria for being defensive throughout the battle which might incentivise playing it purely defensively (Flame Body, Static) should be discouraged as well.

​

What type of Abilities are best-suited towards fulfilling the concept and framework?

Among abilities that enable us to get to the cleaner forme healthy, HP retention and status prevention abilities have seen the most discussion and rightfully so. We have to be careful to steer away from common ways in which these abilities are utilised defensively in order to limit our scope (for example, discouraging a pivot build if we give it something semibanned like Regenerator). There are quite a few ways to achieve these goals and nuance to each method.​

 

[viol and bass]

I disagree with the idea that our ability should benefit both forms equally, because the forms are not currently on an equal playing field. If you look at the mon as a whole right now, what are its weak points? I think by far the biggest issue is switching in and finding mons we can stay in on safely in base form. Almost everything has coverage for this mon, including many or most things you'd like a fire type to be able to check. Many mons that don't have coverage can cripple you in other ways. It's rough currently.

On the other hand our offensive form is pretty goated off the bat. It has little trouble achieving its goals (cleaning up when an opposing team is weakened a bit). It has some checks, but most of them can be worn down pretty readily, which is the whole point of this concept. In order to do that wearing down though, the base form needs to be functional.

Give this mon a defensive-leaning ability, primarily shoring up issues the base form has, and the whole build comes together imo. There are plenty of ways to encourage the transformation form subsequently, because honestly it doesn't need that much encouragement. The typing is nuts.

 

[Gresket]

Does our Ability need to carry significant utility in both forms? Is it more important for one form to use our ability well than the other?

I personally believe that the ability should benefit both formes to some degree. I think having an ability that is weighted to much towards one forme might leave CAP 36 in the same boat as Meloetta where one forme is almost entirely ignored. There should be incentive to use both formes and especially to use both formes together given the chosen framework, To this end, abilities that provide both defensive and offensive benefits should be considered despite how small in number they are. Some ideas I have had include opportunist, discouraging opposing stat boosts to deal with the current forme, or defiant to discourage the opponent from debuffing CAP 36 in fear of increasing its offensive capabilities later. Finally, should the be unbanned, stat boost immunities, such as storm drain or sap sipper, could be useful for providing, once again, dissuasion from using some moves lest they be absorbed and thrown back at you.

 

[Gekokeso]

Does our Ability need to carry significant utility in both forms? Is it more important for one form to use our ability well than the other?

Our ability can provide utility to both forms, but we should absolutely prioritize how one ability uses it compared to another one. Trying to find an ability that attempts to work on both forms at an equal oportunity is very unlikely to work, one of our forms (preferably our offensive form to acomplish the concept) should take a bigger advantage it to merit the form change worth it.

What type of Abilities are best-suited towards fulfilling the concept and framework?

Heavily disagree with the idea that our ability should be defensive. The change in forms grants us an inmense leeway in terms of our stat allocation, thus our more defensive form will not need as much help with an ability to keep itself healthy. What will definitely want to use the ability more is the offensive form, as it will need to pack a significant punch to merit its usage and merit granting moveslots for it. An offensive ability would be a way better fit, we have seen it with defensive mons like Scizor that sometimes an offensive ability can really help make a defensive mon acomplish its job better. An offensive ability not only grants pirouette form with much needed power to clean, but it also allows the more defensive form to have more bulk allocated to it, as even with high bulk it will still do enough damage to fullfil its job.

 

[Pipotchi]

• Does our Ability need to carry significant utility in both forms? Is it more important for one form to use our ability well than the other?

I would have previously said that the ability should prioritize the offensive form to give it more reason to be switched into rather than staying defensive, or grant an "extra move" to help with our moveslots- but I think the defensive form just can't function without some help, almost everything hits it super effectively .
So I think the defensive form needs to get the majority of the help with an ability to get more switchins and then the offensive form just needs to rely on an insane stat spread to justify the switch over.

• What type of Abilities are best-suited towards fulfilling the concept and framework?

My main issue is with Paralysis: you want your fire type or your steel type on your team to cover typings like psychic and fairy, but this guy just cant deal with all of the para being thrown out and crippling the cleaner form before it even hits the field. So matchups into mons like are all really annoying, because you would otherwise probably want to switch into all of these guys.
edit: I should probably clarify here that "just avoid these mons" is a pretty bad solution unless the ability adds more switchins, because it leaves your switchin pool extremely barren and you fail at providing a defensive mon for your team, which the concept mandates.
This either puts a real weight on your teambuilding, or something even worse could happen. If you grant cap36 another great defensive ability, perhaps it says screw it- i want all of the above mons to be switchins too so I wont bother changing into 36b; I'll instead take advantage of getting to use all of my evs defensively and go full defensive, take the paralysis on the chin and also save a moveslot that would otherwise be for Relic Song.

For these reasons, I'm pretty all-in on something that can help with Paralysis. I think it keeps us on-track and makes Relic Song a lot less costly to the defensive profile of the mon compared to other spreads.

 

[a fairy]

Does our Ability need to carry significant utility in both forms? Is it more important for one form to use our ability well than the other?

Need significant utility? No. But we see the value that offensive 'mons have when given defensive abilities. Latios loves Levitate even as it gains nothing in its damage output for it, Ogerpon-W pre-Tera has no regrets about Water Absorb, and Mimikyu has made Disguise an integral part of its kit - while these 'mons don't have access to other abilities, none of these are stunted by their defensive-aligned abilities in being threats in their generations and formats.

Meanwhile, defensive Pokemon almost universally avoid these more offensive abilities when they have something that fits into their defensive toolkit. Toxapex's Merciless usage on ladder is a rounding error from 0 off of people misclicking it in team builder, Blissey has zero desire for Serene Grace even when running offensive moves, and Mandibuzz has little motivation to run Weak Armor despite having somewhat meaningless abilities otherwise.

These examples aren't the greatest, admittedly, but a defensive ability benefits an offensive 'mon way more than an offensive ability benefits a defensive 'mon. Now, mind you, our ability could be used as our primary means of setting up, see my next answer, but as a general statement, if we're choosing one major ability for our 'mon, defensive abilities benefit both defensive and offensive 'mons, and offensive abilities really only benefit offensive mons.

What type of Abilities are best-suited towards fulfilling the concept and framework?

Toxic Chain is a good example of something that can do set-up for later. It isn't a particularly high chance, but it seems to work for the Loyal Trio. It'd be sort of expecting that some means of abusing status would be our concept fulfillment, but it's just an example, ala Static or Flame Body or what have you (or, if you want to get a bit wild while locking into this status approach, something like Compound Eyes to increase accuracy of the status moves). Immunity abilities can help as well, either by providing recovery (Water Absorb style) or offensive pressure (Storm Drain style), giving defensive presence even when in our offensive form. Other 'punishment' abilities ala Justified or Defiant are maybe harder to justify, but can fit the concept of using a defensive form to prepare for an offensive sweep later - bulky tank a hit that procs a boost, and if ready, get going.

I think that an ability here could be huge towards concept fulfillment, though it would also sort of lock in how we expect to fill the concept. Alternatively, we could simply select a solid defensive ability, punting the concept fulfillment details down a poll or two and simply using ability to set up our 'mon for success. I'm inclined to support the former, though I'm not sure how polljumpy some of my ideas are (sorry!) when it comes to envisioning the concept fulfillment and taking the first step in the ability stage for it.

 

[spoo]

I think there are a lot of conflicting desires here that make this stage really tricky to navigate.

We want the Pirouette form to be stronger overall than the base form. This is mainly to incentivize transforming; if the base is too powerful or self-sufficient, we may forgo CAP Song altogether. 36p is our ultimate destination, so all of the efforts of its base form should be in service of it. It needs to be powerful enough to reliably clean teams with a heavily constrained moveset — no easy goal. Some of this can be accomplished with higher stats, but only so much.

On the other hand, Fire/Steel is way worse as a defensive type than Fire/Ice is as an offensive type. Our base form needs more assistance with walling than 36p needs with cleaning. Fire/Steel really doesn’t beat much in this meta by itself, especially considering that some of the mons it would normally love to switch into can threaten to end 36p’s career with a paralysis before it ever even transforms. If the pirouette form is to clean late-game, it needs the base form to not get too worn down beforehand, and it needs the base form to be efficient at its primary job: chipping away at the opposing team. Other people have also pointed out that offensive Pokemon appreciate defensive abilities more than defensive Pokemon appreciate offensive abilities. (This is hardly true in every case, but is probably fine as a general heuristic).

Of course, we’d love for the ability to substantially benefit both forms, but there are such few abilities that really do this, and they might still come with other downsides. There are also abilities that are neither strictly offensive or defensive, but provide reliable chip damage or a way to wear down the opposing team. These are arguably the most concept-relevant abilities of all.

Most of this has been said in the thread already. But, what it tells me is that we should be evaluating abilities on their individual merits instead of within broad categories: “Defensive abilities are better than offensive ones”, “Abilities that benefit 36p are better than ones that benefit the base form”, “A good ability needs to benefit both forms equally”, etc. Sometimes these generalizations can be useful, but maybe not for this CAP. Abilities like Supreme Overlord, Berserk, Moxie (whyyyy isn’t there a non-signature special counterpart…), and Anger Shell provide a clean “signal” for 36p to start cleaning, and greatly improve its ability to do so. Abilities like Regenerator, Levitate, and Purifying Salt help our base form stick around for longer, wall more, and avoid being permanently crippled. Other abilities that compress moveslots, boost STABs or coverage, or provide flat stat boosts are good too. I think these are all equally worthy goals to pursue. Evaluating each ability individually instead of within the framework of “offensive” vs “defensive”, or any other broadly generalizing dichotomy, is the most productive approach.

 

[earthflax]

Hey all, sorry for the wait. Let’s keep this rolling!

My takeaway from the responses so far is simply that our paths are broad, but our options are narrow. There is a broad range of opinions on what particular types of Ability can succeed on this CAP, and how useful they have to be for either form, but the options for specific Abilities remain rather small in the context of our concept.

With this level of specificity that is required for our individual Abilities, I think it is appropriate to open Ability suggestions at this time. I am looking for specific comments on synergy, necessity, and how open it leaves our options in the remaining stages (keeping it broad or specific are both fine; I am looking for justification.)

Tentatively I’ll say 72 hours for this portion of discussion. Excited to hear from you all!

Edited to add: Discussion on soft-banned abilities is allowed to give more flexibility to the design choices that need to be made.

 

[Gekokeso]

Begining with submissions I would like to submit No Guard.

I will be brief since what this does is pretty straightfoward: No Guard has one immediate use: 100% accurate Inferno. Getting a STAB that can always burn what is in front of us provides both forms with an insane amount of utility, allowing us to save moveslots by having our utility and our main stab in one place. It also gives us the option of a 100% accurate ice stab like Blizzard or Triple Axel, giving us two high base power stabs for our Pirouette form to clean in the late game.

Beyond that, it allows us to quite a lot of flexibility with our last moveslot, being able to have additional utility options with fulll accuracy like Thunder Wave or potential coverage options like Zap Cannon.

 

[dex]

Here are some abilities I am thinking about

No Guard
No Guard is great. The attraction of No Guard is Inferno, which gives CAP 36's base forme a uniquely powerful attack that increases its overall presence on the field. This assuredly gives it a niche as a support Pokemon, as inflicting status behind a strong attack is, well, very strong (see DPP Machamp). The main benefit of No Guard is that it very cleanly solves CAP 36's emerging movepool issue. It wants to run supportive moves in its base forme, but the Pirouette forme has little use for those moves upon transformation. Solution? Enable CAP 36 to have a strong utility effect and a strong attack in one moveslot. There are other benefits such as unlocking powerful STAB (Blizzard) and coverage (Thunder) as well that really make me think No Guard is just awesome for this Pokemon.

Lightning Rod
Lightning Rod is targeted towards giving CAP 36 a Thunder Wave immunity, effectively making it immune to every status in the game. Thunder Wave happens to be carried by a few Pokemon that CAP 36 would like to pressure (Tinkaton is the big one). There are a couple matchups that it also positively effects like Raging Bolt and Zapdos getting walled for days. It should be noted that I do not think this ability is as game-changing as it can seem, as Electric-types are somewhat rare in SV and Thunder Wave is not a ubiquitous move by any means. However, this ability does give CAP 36 a wider range of safe switch-in opportunities, which is a net benefit for both formes.

Ice Scales
Fire/Steel is a typing that is great on the SpD side more than the physical side, so why not lean in on that with Ice Scales? Ice Scales makes CAP 36 an excellent mid-ground option against various special attackers like Darkrai and Dragapult, letting it flex its defensive chops more throughout the game while making the Pirouette forme a bit harder to snipe in the end-game.

 

[Spammernoob]

I'll drop some suggestions that have seen discussion in Discord but aren't mentioned above.

Levitate
Everyone hates this option, but it works incredibly well at patching the defensive typing's Achilles heel. Levitate gives CAP36 a strong MU into many common threats in the metagame, such as Kyurem, Equilibra, Landorus-T, Dragonite, etc. which gives it many opportunities to enter and make progress, or use Relic Song (effectively a set-up move). The ability also gives us Spikes immunity, which encourages using items other than Heavy-Duty Boots (which was one of the goals of this typing).

This ability is definitely extremely insane for the defensive profile, so a lot of care will have to be taken to make sure the defensive form doesn't drop Relic Song completely. However, I do think something drastic is necessary if we want this Pokemon to actually wall things in the base form and this fits the bill (maybe we don't want it to wall that well?),

Regenerator
Regenerator allows CAP36 to fulfill a defensive/tank role in the early-mid game, while still preserving enough HP to transform and clean in the lategame. This solves the issue of longevity for CAP36 while not taking up a valuable moveslot, and makes it much easier to position CAP36 to transform while also taking advantage of its defensive capabilities. In terms of future stages, I think this reduces our need for a recovery move,

This ability is generically powerful, so we will probably have to be a bit careful in later stages. People have expressed concerns that it may incentivize CAP36 to forgo Relic Song and stay in defensive form. Because of its generic power, we are probably pretty free to do whatever we want in the later stages. I would be surprised if we deviate from Relic Song/Freeze Dry but Regenerator can really make a lot of things work here (think Ubers Ho-oh).

Toxic Chain
On the opposite end of the offensive/defensive spectrum, we have Toxic Chain. Toxic Chain is a powerful progress-making ability that allows CAP36 to leverage its typing to the fullest. Notably, Fire/Steel walls Poison-type Pokemon and heavily threatens Steel-type Pokemon, while Ice-type coverage threatens the common Gliscor. This allows CAP36 to very effectively spread Toxic on the opposing team while attacking in its defensive form.

Toxic Chain gives us more flexibility in our stats and movepool, as we no longer need Freeze-Dry to make progress against bulky Waters. This allows us to potentially go Physical, giving us access to powerful STABs like Icicle Spear (incredible synergy) and Bitter Blade (for longevity). We can also go special, since Toxic Chain does not have the same limitations as Poison Touch.

 

[Ayecrusher King]

Gonna pipe up with one more option mentioned in the Discord, and gonna edit a couple of my own picks later:

Purifying Salt
This is a more broader option that allows us to target against status - contrary to Dex's proclamation that Lightning Rod 'effectively makes CAP 36 immune to every status in the game', we are really only guaranteed to be immune to burns: we are still very much vulnerable to poison in the offensive form, more rarely being frozen in the defensive form (there's also Sleep, but that's probably a next gen issue so we'll ignore it for now). Also note that Thunder Wave isn't technically the only way for us to get paralysed, either. (Reminder of Shox's Glare, anyone?)
Furthermore, compared to the aforementioned Lightning Rod, which blocks the rare Electric-type STAB seen from Shox or Raging Bolt, Purifying Salt helps reduce the Ghost-type STABs from more common options like Dragapult, Gholdengo or Kitsunoh, particularly in the offensive form.

Flash Fire
This is one more niche option that does replicate much of the utility we've seen with the OG Fire/Steel Heatran, with the bonus of potentially powering up our Relic Clone. It also negates one more weakness to the offensive form.

Onto one option that people seem to like, but I'm not quite as sold: No Guard. Yes, being able to hit an Inferno (or maybe Blizzard, but there's also some talk about Freeze-Dry mentioned that could mean 4MSS) is good, but it's a two way street: for the offensive form, Rock coverage is our doom. And also Focus Blast. And every status condition. The benefits don't exactly weigh more than the costs.

Edit: Oh, and gonna hop on the bandwagon against Levitate as well. Sounds like Intimidate Hemogoblin all over again.

 

[Sqookblooks]

Magic Bounce:

Speaking of abilities that allow us to avoid the pitfalls of paralysis, let's talk about magic bounce. I think most of the discussion right now has centered around the issue of compressing the utility which walls need with offensive firepower that cleaners want. Magic Bounce, therefore, stands out as a great ability for CAP here because it essentially compresses a ton of utility into one pokemon by just switching in. Even if we can't directly switch in safely in all circumstances, the sheer ability to deny spikes from Arghonaut or Ting-Lu is a massive amount of utility that cannot go ignored. We also reap the benefit of being able to not just deny Thunder Wave but reflect it back, turning away a potential hard-stop to our cleaner form into an opening as the wall that used Thunder Wave is now more softened up for us to clean. Likewise, we get to block other common moves used to annoy walls like Taunt and (correct me if I'm wrong) even status moves we're immune to like Toxic or Will-o-Wisp which further heightens the utility. In an offensive cleaner context, magic bounce is still useful because it blocks Encore and other status moves like Thunder Wave or Toxic that might be used to slow us down.

However, I think the biggest reason to want to use Magic Bounce is that it is an ability that can easily compress the move-slot competition because just existing to block status, entry hazards, or moves like Encore/Taunt would give the wall form enough utility to justify only running like at most one utility move which greatly simplifies headaches that might occur during the moveslot stage. Think of how Hatterene, with the exception of Nuzzle and Healing Wish sets, can act as a utility centerpiece of a team while also easily being able to go on the offensive in its own right. Another benefit is that Magic Bounce, for some reason, hasn't been added to a CAP yet, so its also new ground in that right.

Now onto abilities that suggest so far that I like:

Support----
Levitate-- It's a copout but its also a good answer. I fear it would make the defensive value of the Fire/Steel Wall insane, but the sheer strength of the ability allows us to bias the form towards the fire/ice type. We would have to tread carefully though if we don't want to release another equivalent to Equilibra on release.
Lightning Rod-- Simple and effective, but also deceptively useful since it adds another immunity to heighten the defensive profile of cap while also making it much more effective into special attackers. A bit more creative than levitate as well.