CAP 35 - Part 11 - Moveset Discussion

[SHSP]

CAP 35 So Far!

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In this stage, we are determining the required and disallowed competitive moves by creating a list of approved movesets. The movesets will be decided based on the competitive needs and limitations of this project. We are not submitting full movepools at this time. There will be a later stage for movepool submissions (level-up sets, egg moves, etc) once the required and disallowed moves have been determined via the accepted movesets.

Moveset Discussion Rules & Guidelines

There should be five kinds of posts in the thread:

• Moveset Archetype Submissions
• Moveset Submissions
• Moveset Edits/Option Submissions
• General Commentary
• Section Leader/Topic Leader Announcements/Updates

This means that no moves can be suggested or commented on unless they are part of a full competitive moveset submission or suggested as a additional option for one or more previous movesets. Any recommendations to disallow certain moves should only be in reference to moves contained in previously posted movesets.

The general flow of this thread should go like this:

1. People post moveset archetypes.
2. People post moveset submissions for these archetypes in a prescribed format (see below)
3. Other people suggest to add/remove moves or other options to previously posted movesets (see below)
4. Other people propose edits to the descriptive information with previously posted movesets
5. Other people comment on the competitive pros and cons of previously posted movesets, additions/removals, and proposed edits
6. Continuously over the course of the thread, the movepool leader updates the first post in the thread with the "currently accepted" movesets and other information related to the status of the intelligent community consensus (see below)

By the end of this discussion thread, we should have the following outputs:

• The top post in the thread (maintained by the Movepool Leader) will contain a list of all edited, approved movesets
• The top post will list controversial movesets and/or optional moves that need to be voted on by the community

Prohibited Moves:
Legendary Signature Moves are banned from discussion unless one (or more) is specifically allowed by the combined consensus of the TL and the Movepool Leader. The following moves are considered Legendary Signatures:

Legendary Signature Moves

Aeroblast
Astral Barrage
Behemoth Bash
Behemoth Blade
Blue Flare
Bolt Strike
Crush Grip
Core Enforcer
Dark Void
Diamond Storm
Doom Desire
Dragon Ascent
Dynamax Cannon
Eternabeam
Fleur Cannon
Freeze Shock
Fusion Bolt
Fusion Flare
Geomancy
Glacial Lance
Glaciate
Heart Swap
Hyperspace Fury
Hyperspace Hole
Ice Burn
Judgement
Jungle Healing
Land's Wrath
Light of Ruin
Lunar Dance
Luster Purge
Magma Storm
Mist Ball
Moongeist Beam
Oblivion Wing
Origin Pulse
Photon Geyser
Plasma Fists
Precipice Blades
Prismatic Laser
Psycho Boost
Psystrike
Relic Song
Roar of Time
Sacred Fire
Searing Shot
Secret Sword
Seed Flare
Shadow Force
Spacial Rend
Spectral Thief
Steam Eruption
Surging Strikes
Sunsteel Strike
Techno Blast
Thousand Arrows
Thousand Waves
V-Create
Wicked Blow

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Moveset Submissions

Movesets should be posted in the following format:

Moveset Submission

Name: Agility Sweeper
Move 1: Agility
Move 2: Thunderbolt
Move 3: Energy Ball
Move 4: Earth Power / Focus Blast
Ability: Sheer Force
Item: Life Orb
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid / Modest

• Agility doubles CAP X's speed, which allows it to sweep.
• Because of CAP X's Electric typing, Thunderbolt can hit Water-types like Arghonaut and Toxapex very hard.
• Energy Ball allows CAP X to break through common Ground-types which may look to switch into its Electric-type STAB, most notably Seismitoad and Hippowdon.
• Earth Power lets CAP X hit Pokemon such as Excadrill, and Aegislash extremely hard, however, Focus Blast is also an option that allows CAP X to deal with Pokemon such as Equilibra and Ferrothorn if desired.
• Life Orb's recoil is removed by Sheer Force and allows CAP X to hit even harder.
• Timid is preferred as it allows CAP X to outpace Dragapult after it has used Agility, but Modest can be used for more breaking power, notably allowing CAP X to OHKO Toxapex.

Copyable template

[B]Moveset Submission[/B]

Name:
Move 1:
Move 2:
Move 3:
Move 4:
Ability: (optional)
Item: (optional)
EVs: (optional)
Nature: (optional)
[LIST]
[*]
[*]
[*]
[/LIST]

Please keep to the above format so the movepool leader can easily see which posts in the thread are proposing new moveset submissions, and can easily locate the information when updating the top post in the thread.

Ability, Item, EVs, and Nature are optional. All that is required are four moves, a name, and some descriptive information (in bullet form).

Any suggested moveset posted without any reasonable description will be deleted by the moderators. People should not spam movesets, post without checking the movesets already submitted, or post movesets without thinking them through.

Although we are not posting movesets in the full C&C analysis format, you should generally adhere to C&C standards where it makes sense. While there will not be excessively strict moderation on this, use common sense. Don't get too slash-happy with moves, no stupid names, use proper spelling and grammar, etc.

If you are unsure of the optimal ability, item, EVs, or nature -- you can leave it out and it can be edited in later over the course of the thread. By the end of the thread, every accepted moveset should be filled in completely. That doesn't mean we need to be 100% sure of every aspect of the moveset. It's fine if we go with our best guess and leave it to the playtest to optimize it.


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Moveset Edits/Option Submissions

Edits/options should be made by copying the most recent version of the moveset and description into an unattributed quote tags ([ QUOTE][ /QUOTE]). Then make any edits, additions, or replacements in bold text, removals should be in strike-through text. The most recent copy should taken from the top post or from the original submission post, depending on whichever one is most current.

Posters can and should comment on the reasoning and background for any proposed edits outside of Quote tags. Simple wording or spelling corrections do not need any explanation or commentary.

Additional move proposals must be made in the context of one or more movesets. The user cannot simply post "I suggest we add Taunt as an option to all non-choiced movesets", for example.


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Movepool Leader/Topic Leader Posts

The first post under the OP is reserved by the Movepool Leader, and will serve as the reference post for the current status of the discussion.

When the Movepool Leader determines that a moveset, option, or edit is accepted by intelligent community consensus, they will add/update a list of "Approved Movesets" in the first post. The Movepool Leader SHOULD NOT add every submission to the first post automatically, simply because it was posted in the thread. The Movepool Leader SHOULD NOT add a submission to the first post if it was not actively accepted by intelligent community consensus. "Lack of any response" is not the same as "acceptance". As with all CAP discussion threads, the leader should always use their best judgement.

If a proposal has received significant intelligent feedback (positive or negative), but it has not yet reached consensus, the Movepool leader should add it to an "Under Consideration" list in the first post. If the thread ends with controversial items that can't reach consensus, they will go to a community poll. In most cases, the "Under Consideration" list should be comprised of full movesets or additional option proposals. Edits to the description of most movesets, probably will not require extensive discussion or polling.

As the Movepool Leader makes updates to the first post, they should also post announcements in the thread indicating what they have added or updated. This will allow active discussion participants to easily track the progress of the thread. The Topic Leader should also post regular feedback in the thread, like every other competitive discussion.

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Gen VII example

Name: Agility Sweeper
Move 1: Agility
Move 2: Thunderbolt
Move 3: Ice Beam
Move 4: Earth Power / Energy Ball
Ability: Sheer Force
Item: Life Orb
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Modest / Timid

• Agility doubles CAP X's speed, which allows it to sweep.
• Because of CAP X's Electric typing, Thunderbolt can hit Water-types like Arghonaut very hard.
• Ice Beam complements Thunderbolt very well, allowing it to hit Ground-types like Garchomp.
• Earth Power lets CAP X hit Heatran and Mega Crucibelle very hard, while Energy Ball lets it hit Gastrodon and Mega Swampert harder.
• Sheer Force powers up CAP X's main moves.
• Life Orb's recoil is removed by Sheer Force and allows CAP X to hit even harder.
• Modest is preferred for more power, but Timid can be used to outspeed Gyarados and Heatran before boosting.

 

[SHSP]

Hello everyone! I'm very excited to see how this moveset stage is gonna play out, so lets not waste too much time before getting going! I wanna start us off with a few questions, but first-

Here's a list of our Defining Moves:
Required: Electric STAB (Thunderbolt/Discharge), Normal STAB (Hyper Voice/Body Slam), 50% Recovery, Knock Off, Paralysis (Glare/Thunder Wave/Nuzzle)
Optional: Ice Coverage, Volt Switch, Super Fang

And here's our stats:
136 HP / 73 Atk / 81 Def / 90 SpA / 98 SpD / 56 Spe

Considering our stats and our abilities, does anything from our initial defining moves list need to be adjusted? Is there anything we need to cut now? Is there anything that needs to be moved between categories?

I'm gonna put a rough 24 hour deadline on this bit of housekeeping, so we can get to putting together some movesets!

 

[Reviloja753]

I don’t think anything on the defining moves list is outright disgusting with what we have to this point, but I think there’s two moves in particular that we can take out to trim the fat somewhat.

Firstly, given our paltry attack and (presumed given the winning stat spread) access to Glare, I think that we can safely remove Body Slam from our list and just stick with Hyper Voice as our only required Normal STAB. I just can’t see a scenario where this is a competitive move for CAP35.

Secondly, I think we should drop one of Ice coverage or Super Fang. As I see it, our main set is likely to be Electric STAB/Knock Off/???/Recovery. Assuming we will get access to Glare (which again I think is a fair assumption since it is so undeniably useful on our spread), I feel that having both Ice Beam and Super Fang will just lead to one of them never getting run (most likely Super Fang imo because even if Gliscor gets punted to Ubers people will probably prefer Ice Beam to hit Great Tusk/Lando directly). As such, I think it just makes sense to pick one or the other to avoid bloat. Personally, I like Super Fang just a tiny bit more since even though I see the value of Ice Beam, I believe its usefulness has been overrated to this point and that Knock Off + Super Fang is more broadly useful than Knock Off + Ice Beam. That said, I don't hate Ice Beam either; my point is simply that I feel there’s not room for both of them in our competitive moves.

 

[koista12]

This may be a post more fit for PRC, but I dont have access to that subforum and my qualm is directly related to the questions asked in the OP.

Is there anything that needs to be moved between categories?

Yes, Ice Beam should be mandatory, and Glare should be its own item, not slashed with Nuzzle under mandatory moves. Amamama created their spread with Ice Beam and Glare specifically in mind, and the community voted for this spread with the understanding that these moves would come with it.

I understand that until the final movepool is out, things may be changed based on new opinions of what we're working with, or fears over movepool bloat, or whatnot. But treating Ice Beam and Glare as optional/interchangeable at this stage, strikes me as an odd way to process the vote. If anyone thinks we shouldnt include those moves as part of the Final Product, I think that the onus should be on them to justify why they feel the voting results should be overturned.

Also I think Milk Drink should be the mandatory recovery move, because CAP 35 is a cow. Heal Bell should also be on the mandatory moves list because cows are known to wear bells.

 

[Pipotchi]

Ice Beam (ice coverage) should be mandatory now imo. The way the mon has shaken out I think it needs this to be viable. While spreading paralysis sounds cool and all, you'll be more likely to be glaring(assuming it gets this move) a single ground type and then doing a staring contest with it for the rest of the game- the ground type also likely providing Stealth Rocks, Spikes, or Rapid Spins for their side every time they get their free switchin. While Knock Off will assist your teammates vs glue Ground types it will still leave this mon with many mons stonewalling it, meaning this mon can't get its already non-necessary team support (paralysis) to spread around the enemy team. I think between this and its general lack of resistances or other utility this mon will have a harder time finding its way onto teams (plus I agree with what koista said about it already being voted for)

 

[Rapti]

Secondly, I think we should drop one of Ice coverage or Super Fang. As I see it, our main set is likely to be Electric STAB/Knock Off/???/Recovery. Assuming we will get access to Glare (which again I think is a fair assumption since it is so undeniably useful on our spread), I feel that having both Ice Beam and Super Fang will just lead to one of them never getting run (most likely Super Fang imo because even if Gliscor gets punted to Ubers people will probably prefer Ice Beam to hit Great Tusk/Lando directly). As such, I think it just makes sense to pick one or the other to avoid bloat. Personally, I like Super Fang just a tiny bit more since even though I see the value of Ice Beam, I believe its usefulness has been overrated to this point and that Knock Off + Super Fang is more broadly useful than Knock Off + Ice Beam. That said, I don't hate Ice Beam either; my point is simply that I feel there’s not room for both of them in our competitive moves.

I completely disagree with this, having more than one competitive set is always a plus even if one is an "inferior" (and thus less likely to be expected) one
some versatility is always an upside, and two competitive sets hardly makes a mon broken

CAP 35 has room for both Ice Beam and Super Fang

 

[the mystery duck]

does anything from our initial defining moves list need to be adjusted?

Required (7): Thunderbolt, Discharge, Hyper Voice, 50% Recovery, Knock Off, Glare, Ice Beam
Optional (2): Volt Switch, Super Fang

CAP35's defining moves should look more like this. Body Slam, Thunder Wave, and Nuzzle are honestly not defining options here. I lean more on including Volt Switch and Super Fang since I can understand when they are useful, and nine defining moves looks fine to me. Both of them look more useful than Hyper Voice, the first defining move I'll cut if we needed to trim further than this.

Also, I would prefer a 50% recovery move that does not change under any weather.

 

[TheDuckChris]

I noticed that Hyper Voice isn't always an assumed move per this PR post about assumed stabs, though I see we included it here under required. With our decent special attack and Ice coverage I'm not needs to be "required", more optional. Tera blast always exists for special normal stab after all.

 

[MC Squared]

I noticed that Hyper Voice isn't always an assumed move per this PR post about assumed stabs, though I see we included it here under required. With our decent special attack and Ice coverage I'm not needs to be "required", more optional. Tera blast always exists for special normal stab after all.

Can't rely on a move that'll most likely not exist in the next generation, then you'll have no Normal STAB

 

[SHSP]

Hey yall, sorry about the delay! IRL stuff got in the way for a moment, but I'm glad we've gotten great discussion going so far! After reading thread and talking with the TLT, I'm agreeing and moving Ice Coverage (Ice Beam) to Mandatory. The consensus was clear and the stat spread built around the move, so its a definite adjustment to make.

With that change made, lets get moving into moveset suggestions proper! We'll focus on what CAP 35 might viably run as an option, focused on the current meta, and adhering to the format detailed in the OP of the thread for submissions. We have some idea of what we want to do and a good backbone to get there, so don't be too afraid to submit something more out there! Remember that the defining moves list is a guideline: you don't need to fit the whole Required section on one moveset, for example, just know that they will almost surely be on the final moveset and important to the CAP as a whole. Be sure to explain the idea behind your suggested set (or sets) and the details of it, especially if you have something like a bit of a strange/specific EV spread or a more out-there move to consider. Anything you're unsure about, feel free to ask in the thread or catch me on Discord, and I/the TLT at large will be glad to respond and figure it out.

No immediate deadline on this part of the stage, I'm really excited to see what you guys cook up for us!

 

[quziel]

Moveset Submission:
Name: Chip-Based Wall
Move 1: Discharge
Move 2: Knock Off
Move 3: Super Fang
Move 4: Milk Drink / Morning Sun
Ability: Electromorphosis
Tera Type: Ghost
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots
EVs: 252 HP / 76 Def / 180 SpD
Nature: Calm

Electromorphosis is an ability that enables you to make incredibly painful trades for the opponent once any Ground-types are removed from their team. Even frailer resists such as Dragapult will hate taking Discharge once its powered up, hitting for 40% and an additional 30% chance of Paralysis. Knock Off and Super Fang are the bread and butter of this set as they allow for CAP 35 to remove the recovery and start chipping the opponent's Ground-types very fast. Equilibra, Ting Lu, and Landorus-Therian all hate losing their item, even if Lando hates losing it a bit less, and all three are very rapidly going to be sent into range for a teammate after a Super Fang or two. This is the kind of grindy, difficult to abuse playstyle that I believe made pokemon such as Toxapex so successful, and I want to see it here.

 

[Reviloja753]

Moveset Submission

Name: Immoovable Object (Wall)
Move 1: Discharge / Thunderbolt
Move 2: Knock Off
Move 3: Ice Beam / Super Fang / Glare
Move 4: Milk Drink
Ability: Electromorphosis / Sticky Hold
Tera Type: Flying
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA OR 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Nature: Bold / Calm

• Discharge allows CAP35 to compress its primary method of dealing damage — especially with Electromorphosis — with spreading paralysis. Thunderbolt is a stronger STAB to use if running Glare.
• Knock Off is essential in CAP35’s moveset as its default answer to Equilibra and other item-reliant switch-ins, as well as being a very solid progress-making tool in general. Also assists with the Ghost-types CAP35 naturally checks such as Dragapult.
• Ice Beam lets CAP35 bypass Gliscor and is its best answer to Great Tusk, both of which otherwise wall it. Super Fang softens up foes more generally in conjunction with its other tools, most notably squeezing Equilibra even further. Lastly, Glare is an alternative paralysis method to further dissuade Ground-types from switching in at the cost of being unable to paralyze Gholdengo.
• Milk Drink is vital for CAP35 to keep itself healthy throughout a game.
• Electromorphosis allows CAP35 to apply more direct pressure with boosted Electric moves, particularly when facing Venomicon and Cresceidon among others. Alternatively, Sticky Hold affords CAP35 permanent hazard immunity with Heavy-Duty Boots, letting it come in much more frequently in a match without needing to worry about Knock Off users or Trick Gholdengo.
• Tera Flying gives CAP35 the ability to flip its two sole regular weaknesses at the cost of its Ghost immunity.
• Maximum physical bulk coupled with a Bold nature means CAP35 is more easily able to check Venomicon by stomaching its Body Press, as well as pivot Dragapult. Maximum special bulk and a Calm nature is an alternative that lets CAP35 more easily take on powerful special attackers like Gholdengo and Darkrai.

This is essentially going to be CAP35’s go-to set. Frankly, there is very little else I believe CAP35 needs for its 1.0 release (the only competitive moves not listed here that come to mind, if people argue for them, are Volt Switch and some form of hazard control; I’ll let others talk about those for now though). Pretty straightforward with what’s been agreed upon to this point overall.

 

[Robraf]

CAP 35 @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Sticky Hold
Tera Type: Flying/Water
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature

- Super Fang/Discharge
- Knock Off
- Milk Drink
- Court Change

Right of the bat, this Set is by no means going to be the most common one as I‘d agree with Reviloja‘s post. I‘m here talking about a slightly different approach of a role 35 could play.

This Set heavily leans into potential HDB Spam Teams that gain a lot of progress via Hazards. We can either run Super Fang if we believe that Ground types are a big issue. This would mean that we would go for no Stab, otherwise Discharge is a great way for role compression. Allows us to play an attacking move with good chances of spreading paralysis. Especially relevant if we want to beat foes such as or

Court Change is a great way for us to remove hazards but simultaneously set them down. With Sticky Hold we don‘t have to fear of being Knocked or Tricked and therefore we can heavily annoy opponent teams that want to stack up on Hazards. This is especially noteworthy as some of the best Knockers such as or don’t have the best MU into us if we run Discharge. I believe that Court Change enables 35 to be played in different sort of teams that maybe go into the direction of Stall. With the rise of Screens in SV OU Court Change also gains the benefit of the doubt here as it can swap the screens onto our side of the field. I also wouldn’t consider Court Change as bloat here as it has a clear role and distinction especially in a metagame where anything and everything runs hazards. Like I haven‘t seen a meta that has this much hazards than SV honestly. Obviously abilities such as Toxix Debris didn’t do this any good.

 

[TheDuckChris]

Snorlax cosplay could be fun

CAP35 @ Leftovers
Ability: Sticky Hold
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Def
Sassy Nature
- Curse
- Body Slam
- Knock Off / Ice Beam
- Rest / Milk Drink

With normal stab and very good bulk a curse set is a classic strategy. Might want to invest a little into attack as its still quite weak even at +6. However this could be a great Dondozo-esque wall that can hit back, and of course body slam paralysis chance is always nice. Loses to Gholdengo if you don't have Knock, and to Gliscor if you don't have Rest (toxic). So you can pick your poison there

 

[Pipotchi]

Bellibolt @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Electromorphosis / Sticky Hold
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
-Discharge
-Milk Drink
-U-turn
-Ice Beam / Knock Off / Glare

U-turn is good against obvious switchins like Libra, Gliscor, Tusk, etc. Gives some freedom to not run Ice Beam, and also feels a lot better against surprise Terastalization from special boosters, as well as NP Gholdengo. Literally every wall has the ability to either pivot, boost or play with hazards in CAP so I wanted to suggest a set that can do that. I thought a lot whether or not this should be Volt Switch and in the end I think U-turn is the more usable move, which hurts since Electromorphosis Volt Switch feels very on-concept. But U-turn's unblockable nature just outweighs the damage and it opens that 4th slot to be successful in a range of additional tasks without feeling too deadweight vs its hard counters.

 

[singaporygon]

Bellibolt @ Heavy-Duty Boots ...

A minor question, but it could be Discharge / Volt Switch in the 1st slot, where you would use Volt Switch if you use Glare in the last slot? (and applying this to other set subs, when there's electric slot + slot that includes glare)

 

[spoo]

I think Volt Switch should be mandatory; the list of fully evolved Electrics that don't learn it is just Oricorio (sort of a weird case + not in SV), Stunfisk (not in SV), Arctozolt/Dracozolt (not in SV), and Pincurchin. This is probably enough of a list to justify leaving it out if we really wanted to, but still very weak precedent; I think we'd have to have a very good reason if we wanted to exclude Volt Switch, and well, we just don't. The move ain't gonna break us, 95% of Electrics have access to it.

Out of our bread-and-butter required moves, the optimal set always runs recovery, an Electric STAB (presumably Discharge, maybe Volt), and probably picks two from Knock Off, Ice Beam, and Glare; any combination of those three moves has a lot of merit.

- STAB Move Discharge / Volt Switch
- Recovery Milk Drink
- Filler 1 Knock Off / Ice Beam
- Filler 2 Glare / Ice Beam

Outside of those six standard moves, the only other move I think worth discussing is Super Fang. This move has a decent amount of power attached to it, and I think could easily compete for a slot with Ice Beam, Knock Off, and Glare. With a fourth strong utility move to pick from, CAP 35 gains a lot of extra flexibility and the "pick 2 of 4" free filler slots could become a bit annoying to dance around. That said, it doesn't wildly upturn our checks & counters either; it gives us another strong tool to cripple Grounds, but Knock and Glare do a decent job of this already.

Some subjective analysis of Super Fang into projected checks & counters (we never did a threats stage for some reason so I'm making a few assumptions here):

Hide

• Ting Lu - the best of the four competing filler options, though maybe not that far ahead of Knock (SF>KO>GL>IB)
• Equilibra - much better than Ice Beam, but there's a case to be made that any of the 3 others are optimal into Equilibra depending on your team. Super Fang is probably best a majority of the time, but this one isn't as obvious to me (SF>=KO>=>GL>IB)
• Gliscor - much worse than Ice Beam, definitely better than Knock/Glare (IB>SF>KO>GL)
• Landorus-T - much worse than Ice Beam, somewhat better than Glare, and definitely better than Knock (IB>SF>GL>KO)
• Great Tusk - worse than Ice Beam, better than or equal to Glare, better than Knock Off (IB>SF>GL>KO)
• Garganacl - somewhat worse than Knock but still very strong, and far better than Ice Beam/Glare (KO>SF>IB>GL)
• Mollux - somewhat worse than Knock, better than or equal to Glare, better than Ice Beam (KO>SF>GL>IB)
• Clefable - somewhat worse than Glare, better than Knock and Ice Beam (GL>SF>KO>IB)
• Slowking-G - worse than Knock, slightly worse than or equal to Glare, better than Ice Beam (KO>GL>SF>IB)

If you disagree on the minutiae of some of these rankings, that's fine, they aren't that important –– the broader takeaway here is that while Super Fang isn't often the best option vs common switch-ins, and doesn't really flip any matchup on its head, it's still a pretty amazing utility move that offers a lot for us. Additionally, it won't be in isolation; shoring up Super Fang's poorer matchups with any of Knock Off, Ice Beam, or Glare results in a very powerful two-move combo. If we go with Glare as our method of required Paralysis options, I think adding Super Fang is probably a 20-30% increase in overall power. We can also choose Thunder Wave > Glare and go with Super Fang for a safer route.

I'm inclined to kick the can down the road and wait until the PPL to see if Super Fang is necessary. If CAP 35 underperforms, it'll be an easy add. Brief thoughts on other moves: Court Change kinda feels like handing out extra moves just for the sake of wanting something cool and unique, Curse is likely a non-issue into most balances but could be difficult for a lot of offenses to break, and U-turn is sorta whatever, why not I guess.

Here's the full list of moves I think personally make sense for 1.0:

• Discharge, Thunderbolt, Thunder, Volt Switch, Wild Charge, Thunder Wave (universal elec STABs)
• Hyper Voice, Facade, Take Down, Body Slam, Double Edge (universal/near universal normal STABs)
• Tera Blast, Rest, Protect, etc (gen 9 universal moves)
• Milk Drink, Knock Off, Ice Beam, U-turn, Glare or Super Fang

 

[MC Squared]

I think Volt Switch should be mandatory; the list of fully evolved Electrics that don't learn it is just Oricorio (sort of a weird case + not in SV)

Oricorio is in SV. It gained stuff like Quiver Dance and the type of Revelation Dance matches its Tera Type when it Terastallizes

 

[Reviloja753]

Alright let’s talk a trio of moves that have been tossed out there since I posted.

Court Change - Frankly, while I do see the appeal of Court Change, especially on a Pokémon with Sticky Hold, I feel that the tier has better options for hazard removal (Equilibra most notably but also Mollux and Great Tusk) and even Sticky Hold sets simply have better things to be doing, especially when Court Change really only works once in a match unless the foe uses their removal (compared to the spinners which can clear as much as they want without consequence). I’m not opposed to making CAP35 yet another CAP spinner given Sticky Hold lets us always be able to clear hazards without touching them (thus potentially giving us an edge over other secondary spinners on a team), but given the uniqueness of the move I think it’s best to leave Court Change on the bench.

Curse (or any other setup) - Yeah no thank you. I feel that if we wanted to leave a Dondozo/Curse Garganacl kind of build open for CAP35, we would have specified that during Defining Moves. We didn’t though, and I do not want anything in our kit which could enable any strategy like that. Also, our base 73 Attack is also quite pathetic, so I don’t even think Curse itself is worth running on CAP35 even if we did get it. It just feels extraneous, either being good enough to drive us off course or (more likely) not worth bringing up in a competitive stage for CAP35 period. Before anyone else gets any ideas, I believe any move that boosts Special Attack, Defense, or Special Defense should be banned. I just do not want us to utilize boosting on CAP35 given its stats and other likely moves. It feels like too much of a risk.

U-turn - My thing with U-turn is I’ve yet to see a comprehensive argument as to why CAP35 should be given this move and not simply have access to Volt Switch. Yes, U-turn would likely be better for CAP35 than Volt Switch, I am not disputing that. However, I feel that U-turn is a move that, should it be added, would be an additional utility move on the same level as Knock Off, Glare, and (if we give it) Super Fang. Right now, I don’t particularly feel one way or the other about the move, but I also don’t feel very comfortable just throwing it onto CAP35 without a more comprehensive discussion on how it may raise CAP35’s power level. Basically, I do not feel it is a move that should just be a “sure why not” scenario; I believe it needs more explanation before I can decide how I feel about the move.

 

[TheDuckChris]

Court change - Tossing out signatures just to make our cap really slap doesn't feel right. It's an amazing move but not one that really speaks a ton to the concept, nearly any pokemon can be made into a utility or defensive pick with this move. Feels like a cheap way out

Volt switch - this on the other hand is very pro concept. Using a counter intuitive typing and role combination means our cap should utilize it's typing to the fullest even though it's not the most straightforward. That means volt switch is a great pick as one of electric types best utility options. Obviously discussed in stat stage so I think it's enough to be allowed but not required

U-turn - don't see any need for this. Unblockable pivoting with unremovable boots and recovery seems excessive to start with.

 

[MrDollSteak]

Not a fan of Curse, Court Change or U-Turn, I concur with all of the arguments against them above.

I do however like Super Fang.

I think having access to Glare, Ice Beam and Super Fang gives us the full spread of ways to beat Ground types in order to see what plays better, and makes us far less passive overall by helping with the matchup against Equilibra and Ting-Lu especially.

Personally, of the 3 moves I'm the least interested in Glare as I discussed in my stat spread. submission because I think it competes with Discharge, but nevertheless think it should remain.

Overall I agree with Spoo's list but would replace U-Turn with Super Fang.

 

[SHSP]

Hey everyone, popping in to give my thoughts after talking to the TLT and thinking myself.

Chip-Based Wall- This is approved. This is probably our most standard set, at least with Electromorphosis. The only question I have is about the recovery slot- I imagine we're looking mostly at Milk Drink? Morning Sun and clones do have a little bit of weirdness with Sun boosting recovery, but this feels so incredibly minor.

Immoovable Object- A very solid set, especially with being able to work with both abilities well. I see no issues with this one or anything slashed with it.

Court Change- I'm denying Court Change here. When it comes to removal itself, I can't see Court Change actually being a huge deal on teams that we actually fit on compared to more standard removal options, and I definitely echo what Spoo said about adding flashy things for the sake of adding flashy things.

Snorlax Cosplay (Curse)- This one was a bit more divisive than expected, and I'd like to hear a few more thoughts about it when it comes to the offense matchup. It definitely seems as though it could be a fun and worthwhile sort of secondary set to consider, if the power level ends up being where we want it to be and not overly powerful.

U-Turn- I'm also denying U-Turn. I don't think having an unblockable pivoting option is something that fits us well at all- DuckChris's thoughts about it really sum up mine. Its way too much with the rest of the kit, I would say, and detracts from a far more interesting Volt Switch.

Super Fang- This move fits really, really well, but there's definite questions about its strength and if it needs to be on the 1.0 release proper. I think Spoo's post has a lot of merit to it, but it is also a move that's had a lot of support throughout all our moves discussion. I'd love to hear more about this before making a final decision about it.

I'm also gonna set a tentative 48 hour warning on this so we can keep things moving. If you've got thoughts, hit me with em!

 

[Reviloja753]

Just to reiterate on the two moves still in contention:

Curse - I really do not think this deserves to be in the 1.0 movepool. I cannot imagine a scenario where CAP35 is run as a Curse wall when Garganacl and Dondozo are infinitely more useful in that role. Garganacl especially is entirely immune to status, has a higher Attack stat, Salt Cure, Earthquake as coverage, and has 50% recovery like CAP35 does. I feel like Curse simply is a distraction and that adding it would be superfluous. Like I said before, I think that if a build utilizing Curse or similar moves was something we wanted to keep open, we would’ve put it as an optional defining move. Even in a world where Curse would be viable on CAP35, I still oppose giving the mon any form of usable setup, as I fear that risks taking the focus away from how we want CAP35 to function. Yes, setup walls exist, but again, if we wanted to leave this door open we should have let people factor it into their stats. At best, Curse is a nothing move on CAP35 which should not be given out in a competitive stage. At worst, Curse risks derailing CAP35 in a flailing attempt to liven up its movesets. No thanks.

Super Fang - While I initially was of the opinion that we should choose between Ice Beam and Super Fang, upon further reflection I think allowing Super Fang on the 1.0 movepool makes sense. While it is strong, Super Fang targets specific Ground-types that neither Glare or Ice Beam seriously discourage, most notably Ting-Lu and Equilibra. In return, you get completely shut down by Gliscor and can never kill Great Tusk, allowing them to set up on you or otherwise make progress. Overall, which utility moves you choose have various pros and cons regarding what you can get around and what you get stuffed by. I feel it would make the most sense to put Super Fang on the 1.0 movepool, and then if having Glare, Ice Beam, and Super Fang is too much (or if Super Fang ends up being completely useless in practice compared to the other options) we can cut it in PPL. I do not believe including it now would increase CAP35’s strength so dramatically to where giving it is a bad idea (compared to U-turn for example, just to illustrate what I’m talking about); I suspect it will help, but it does not fundamentally upend our checks and counters. If we don’t end up giving it, then it won’t be the end of the world, but I would like to give Super Fang for 1.0.

 

[TheDuckChris]

My thoughts on including Curse
Curse is a move that many defensive pokemon learn especially among older generations, and it usually does not cause a lot of issues. For example a similar wall like Chesnaught or Hippowdown has access to the move, and even a fairly decent attack stat, yet do not often use it. For most walls it is simply a moveslot that is too valuable to use on what usually amounts to +1 defence. However as a normal type without a lot of weaknesses, boosting defence can help CAP35 avoid 2HKOs, especially after paralyzing something. This could add an additional way to play our wall, and fit somewhat conceptually due to defence boosting being more valuable on a pokemon that has few resistances but few weaknesses. That being said I don't see it as a primary option so if it is not included it probably won't affect the final product that much.

 

[Rapti]

While this came only in the tread as a joke, I think Heal Bell has genuine use on any wall and CAP35 seems to have few utility besides paralysis support and Super Fang chipping, it kind of gives it 4th move syndrome but I don't think of that as a problem tbh.