Policy Review CAP 21 Concepts

[jas61292]

Hey everyone. I'm making this topic because I feel that something needs to be done about the current state of our concept submissions, and that it is not something that we can afford to wait on. The concept workshop is all but dead, and it is not looking to improve any time soon. As TL for this project, I simply think we do not have enough viable concepts at the moment (approved or not) to even have a discussion thread, much less a poll slate.

I have spoken with various people about this, including many of the other moderators, and I have yet to really hear anyone who thinks that what we are currently doing is working. Something really needs to change, and change now, rather than in the future. Ultimately though, this is something that is up to the PRC.

So, I just want to use this thread to make a simple and quick proposal:

For CAP 21, and CAP 21 only, we cease to use the concept workshop, and re-instate the concept process used previously in CAP 19 and earlier projects. The future of CAP concept submissions will then be discussed more in depth following CAP 21.
​

The future of CAP concepts may not be in either the old process or the concept workshop, but the details of that are something we can work out in a future PR thread. Right now, we need to work to salvage the current project, and I don't think we can do that by sticking with the concept workshop. I said this in a conversation with the other moderators, but I think it deserves repeating: believe me, I love the concept stage, and helping lead it was the best part of being TL on Malaconda for me, but right now, with the way things are set up, not only does it feel like nothing is happening, but I feel completely helpless to do anything about it. This is a terrible situation, and while I am certainly trying to deal with it as best I can, I would never want anyone to ever be put in this situation as a TL.

To be quite honest, I think one of the biggest issues that we have currently is that the concept workshop simply does not bring any excitement like the old concept process does. The fact is that, while the old process has been described as "throwing crap at the wall and hoping it sticks," the new process is not that much different. We just added a few janitors and a lot more red tape. Furthermore, while there is often some gold among the crap, the fact is that we are simply getting far less submissions overall, which unfortunately reduces the gold just as much as it reduces the crap. What we need now is to get people excited and to get people submitting. I am more than happy to wade through mountains of crap all by myself if it means getting this project off to a good start.

As it is already far too long after leadership elections for us not to be doing anything, this thread is going to start off with an immediate 48 hour warning. Lets get on this people.

Note that this is not a voting thread. We want to know what people think of the current situation so that we may make an informed decision based on community consensus. Simply stating a side that you are on is nowhere near as helpful here as letting us know your assessment of the situation, and how you think the proposal compares to its alternative.

Due to the quick nature of this thread, I am going to tag all the PRC members below. Obviously, if you have no opinion, please don't feel compelled to answer. This is solely for the sake of making sure that anyone who does have an opinion has a chance to get it out in the short period that this thread will be open for.

PRC

Birkal
Bughouse
capefeather
Cretacerus
Da Pizza Man
Deck Knight
DetroitLolcat
DHR-107
DougJustDoug
EternalSnowman
Exclaimer
HeaLnDeaL
Ignus
Imanalt
Integer Mova
jas61292
NumberCruncher
nyttyn
paintseagull
QueenOfLuvdiscs
Qwilphish
Snobalt
sparktrain
Stratos
SwedishBiscuit
Ununhexium

 

[Ununhexium]

I have nothing to add but to say I agree entirely. The old process brings stickier crap.

 

[Ignus]

Going to support this for a few very specific reasons to CAP 21; But I'm going to ask that we auto-slate the currently approved concepts that are in the workshop. Even if the workshop has sucked a large portion of the excitement out of the Concept stage, I feel like the quality control portion of the process has generally worked fine.

Changing this for CAP 21 specifically means we can allow mega-specific concepts without worrying about those concepts directly impacting the workshop - which is, in my opinion, an extremely good thing for what could be potentially 1 to 2 time chance of exploring mega evolution.

 

[Bughouse]

1) I am not likely to be all that involved moving forward, so take my comments as you will
2) Since basically its creation, I've felt that the implantation of the concept workshop was poor
3) I still don't think it's appropriate for a TL to ask to override the system

 

[DougJustDoug]

I'm not adamantly opposed to us making an on-the-fly call regarding how we handle CAP21 Concept Submissions, as long as we don't make up some weird untested policy and throw it out there. But the proposal seems to be that we are suggesting to go back to the old way of doing concepts, which, although it has many problems, is certainly a known process here in CAP. If we don't have enough concepts to even get off the ground with CAP21, and the TL is actually advocating the shitstorm of garbage concepts that comes with an open cattle-call Concept Submissions thread in the main forum -- then I won't stand in the way of it.

But before we pull the trigger on something like this, I just want to make sure we have explored all other options. I can't think of anything better off the top of my head, but I don't want to just throw up our hands and make this a simple binary decision, ie. "The old way or nothing -- choose now", if we can avoid it.

 

[jas61292]

Going to support this for a few very specific reasons to CAP 21; But I'm going to ask that we auto-slate the currently approved concepts that are in the workshop. Even if the workshop has sucked a large portion of the excitement out of the Concept stage, I feel like the quality control portion of the process has generally worked fine.

I don't necessarily agree that we should auto-slate any concepts, seeing as even with the workshop in place, being approved was not the same as getting automatically slated. However, I agree that approved concepts should definitely be up for consideration. While not all of them may be appropriate here, it would be perfectly fine, and even recommended that they be submitted (ideally by their original submitter) and discussed like any other concept. If they were approved, they are obviously good. However, what gets slated depends also on what it it competing with, and whether or not it would work well for a Mega Project, something which most of the approved concepts did not have in mind when being made.

3) I still don't think it's appropriate for a TL to ask to override the system

I would also just like to respond to this for a second. While I kind of see where you are coming from, and my position as TL definitely has influenced my stance here, I try not to think of this as me asking for anything as TL. This situation here is something that I have looked at an analysed from the perspective of a CAP participant and moderator, and not simply as the current TL. If anything, my experiences as a former TL have far more influence here than anything going on currently, as I see a situation that appears far worse than what I ever had to deal with back then. Furthermore, while I was indeed the one who posted this, I was certainly not alone in my views. As mentioned, I have spoken to many people about this, a large number of whom share my opinions, including a number of former project leaders who have similarly seen what the project is currently doing compared to what it was able to do in the past, and I would hope that those people will post their opinions here as well. Regardless, lets try and keep this thread on the issue at hand. Like it or not, it really doesn't matter much how this is coming up. What matters is whether or not people think it is an issue worth doing something about. If they do, we can change things, but if not, then we will go forward as is. I am prepared to take on either situation.

 

[QueenOfLuvdiscs]

One of the reasons I think we're getting less optimal submissions is because there's only so much you can do before you start repeating old concepts or end up with something incredibly niche. We're at 21 now, eventually we're gonna have to bring up something, not exactly the same as a previous concept, but make take some submissions that have similarities to older ones.

Whilst I haven't been following the concept part as much as I could do, it seemed that every time that someone suggested a 'core idea'. It just falls flat because "we done that before". Like I've already said, we are gonna have to start using similar concepts otherwise we will get trash and have to work with trash. I just think we need to open up to more similar concepts and not always try to find something new all the time, otherwise it's gonna get worse.

 

[DetroitLolcat]

Right now, our Concept Workshop approach hasn't produced enough quality concepts and, given the pace at which it's designed to operate, will not do so in a reasonable amount of time. We've seen what happens when we bungle the Concept Submission stage, and the results are not pretty. We shouldn't try anything experimental or new, but we're at the point where the TL and numerous CAP staff members would prefer the "throwing crap at the wall and hoping it sticks" approach to our current one. While the previous approach has its flaws and probably shouldn't be our permanent approach going forwards, it's a good quick-fix to the concept shortage. For CAP 21, and CAP 21 only, we need to freely open concept submissions and trust the Topic Leader to weed them out himself. Moving forward, Concept Submissions need to be reworked again after CAP 21. The Concept Workshop, while a good idea at the time (and, to its credit, produced a solid concept for CAP 20), likely needs to be written off as a failure. But we're at a crunch for time and need to go ahead with a system we know can work and has worked in the past. Full support for this proposal.

 

[nyttyn]

birkal PM'd me about this the other day and I pretty much support nuking it, having both had to be TL and having to have trawl through the waves of crap that make up the current submission thread.

There's been an incredibly tiny amount of submissions we can even approve to the +1 state, frankly speaking. The reason nothing's happening because THIS is the average submission:

Name: Mind Games
General Description: A Pokémon made to neutralize those pesky sweepers that exist in the OU meta. Basically it aims on bringin down all threats to your team, either sweepers or taking over important things that make a tank (ex. Rocky Helmet on Ferrothorn).
Justification: Sweepers are always a problem in the OU meta, being either Talonflames, Scizors and other Pokémon like Landorus and Excadrills. This Pokémon aims on predicting switches to bring down the enemy Pokémon.
Questions To Be Answered:
Is it too obvious?
Is it underpowered or even not viable?
Can it get destroyed by other bulky Pokémon switching in?
Will it not deal enough damage or be overall useless in defensive teams/Stall?
Explanation: It may be obvious, but this Pokémon aims to be in a high risk/high reward overall strategy, neutralizing incoming threats to your team. Underpowered or not being viable can actually be a thing, but it depends on the skill of the player on using certain moves it could learn. Threats to other sweepers like Ferrothorns and Mega Sableyes are also a thing, and this Pokémon may be in trouble if he gets baited into a bulky switch. Players will have to turn that around using mind games and baiting enemies into their own switches. This Pokémon may suffer if placed in Defensive/Stall teams, but it shines on also removing threats that could negate your stalling strategy. Another thing. This Pokémon can also shine in side tiers like Doubles OU or Triples. This Pokémon would bring a great advantage to the metagame since it would introduce a higher skill cap on some teams, that can either help or destroy new players (since by players who use the Pokémon but fail the strategy, or players that studied alot that Pokémon and are perfect with him so they are now laddering.). The Mind Games concept comes over in using moves like Switcheroo, Skill Swap, Trick, Thief and as an example Disable to make useless the enemy Pokémons that threat your team's existence. Overall I personally think a more predictive strategy would be nice to the metagame since the OU metagame kind of lacks Pokémon that need higher skill cap and mental skills to be played.

and THIS is the average post.

I hate to be "that guy" who isn't letting something go, but seeing as we're in the last couple days for this thread, I just wanted to ask something that's been on my mind regarding some of these recent concepts. Basically, if a concept is good, but for whatever reason it's not the right time to do it, for either meta-related or community-related reasons, shouldn't it still get a +1? Obviously, I'm thinking about Patient Mega, but it's more general than that as well (like the Charizard Gambit and Bring Two Pick One, both of which we're also not ready for, but are probably good concepts.) Doing so would give them their own threads so that we can discuss them without interrupting the flow of this thread, which is more to see if a concept is viable at all or not, and if they do get approved, there's no reason they have to get selected for the next CAP if we're not ready to do them. Because realistically, a concept that gets a "It's good, but not yet" is just going to get reposted in every concept submissions thread until it finally gets approved, which is a waste of time for everyone involved.
So basically, even if we're not ready to do a specific concept even though it's solid, I'm not sure why we don't give it the +1 anyway and just not select it for the upcoming CAP until we ARE ready.

Honestly I'd LOVE to get some great or even moderately okay concepts up for you jas but there are literally no worthwhile concepts that have been posted in the entirety of the current submissions thread. Even Wallbreaker Wall and Parting Shot I don't even think were even okay, but I +1'd anyways because they had at least some tiny shred of potential (which has been shown to be ill founded as there's zero interest in the later and it's been pointed out it's way too late for the former) and I wanted to try to get SOMETHING potentially added to the slate. I even went back through the thread and I found nothing I overlooked and missed - there is literally not a single salvageable concept in the entire thread.

It's been an unmitigated disaster of crap, like the people's crusade but with concepts. I think something like over 50% of the posts in that thread have been outright deleted, and something like 90% of it would probably be deleted if I hadn't gotten sidetracked by TLing. There's also basically nobody left on the QC team - it's just me and ginga. And a lot of it has been ginga. And as much as I'd love to promote someone else to try and help, there's not a single poster whom I would be comfortable with bringing on board.


Speaking on the future, frankly speaking I don't know how much returning to the concepts thread will help, because we were dealing with waves of awful concepts even before this, which lead to the genesis of the workshop in the first place. But realistically speaking we don't have the manpower to continue the workshop, doubly so since ginaninja will likely quit after CAP's direction changes, and the hype of concept submission periods helps to get at least one or two gems.

While it's too early for me to entirely say this as we're going to take a second look after this CAP, at this point it's probably going to be better we just bite the bullet and nuke the workshop, because I don't think I can continue trying to manage it. I love it in theory, but in practice there both isn't the manpower to continue it, and there's not enough quality for it to be a worthwhile endeavour.



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To make some responses:

Whilst I haven't been following the concept part as much as I could do, it seemed that every time that someone suggested a 'core idea'. It just falls flat because "we done that before". Like I've already said, we are gonna have to start using similar concepts otherwise we will get trash and have to work with trash. I just think we need to open up to more similar concepts and not always try to find something new all the time, otherwise it's gonna get worse.

cores suck p much that's why there's such strong opposition to them in particular. I'm all for reusing old concepts but cores just fall flat on their face because they always come with some gimmick attached, and we literally have never made a core based CAP that actually used the partners it was supposed to. It's just the nature of the beast - we can make a cap preferable to use with certain mons, but due to the unwieldy nature of CAP's process we don't have the precision to make it a perfect partner for ONLY X mons since it'll usually have more than enough wiggle room to just get used w/ something better instead and to far greater results.

3) I still don't think it's appropriate for a TL to ask to override the system

Speaking as co-workshop leader and a TL who had to use it, I think this is perfectly apropos because the workshop is literally giving Jas nothing to work with, and not for lack of effort.

If we don't have enough concepts to even get off the ground with CAP21, and the TL is actually advocating the shitstorm of garbage concepts that comes with an open cattle-call Concept Submissions thread in the main forum -- then I won't stand in the way of it.

Doug I don't know if you've read the concept workshop submission thread or not but, somehow, against all conceivable logic, they're a even worse shitstorm. This is just speculation on my part but it seems the hype and short-term window that concept submission threads provided were the only reason we got any good concepts in the first place, because the period of inital hype for workshops was the only period in which we got any even fringe usable concepts.

 

[HeaLnDeaL]

I'm going to just chime in and say that if you look at the old way of concepts and go through old concept threads, you will also see that even there the vast majority of concepts were not good. The only reason why I think the old way worked at all was because it caused a crazy surge of hype and a lot of concepts were submitted at once... Basically, I feel that the old system was to hope that the large quantity of submissions would allow a few quality concepts be submitted. The current concept workshop was supposed to improve quality, but really hasn't done so too much, and at the same time it doesn't allow for the hype and the resulting quantity of submissions.

Let's remember why the concept subforum was created, however. In the hype of the old concept threads, it was easy to think something was cool and see it as having promise, but there was no outlet for real concept discussion and seeing how feasible concepts were because the hype promoted concepts to be submitted, but not concepts to be discussed. And really, this is my biggest problem with the old concept submission threads; very little discussion occurred and the vast majority of the posts were just people proposing new concepts. And even when the TL posted in the old thread with comments or discussion topics, such posts were very easily ignored due to the influx of new concepts being submitted.

Essentially, if we want the hype/quantity of submissions but also want some sort of check on the quality of concepts, then I think it would be best to go back to the old concept submission thread AND have a discussion thread after concept submissions are closed in which the TL lists concepts he/she is considering slating and asking for discussion on the interest/feasibility of the proposed concepts (this discussion thread was something that happened in CAP20 so it's not a brand new idea). Really, I don't see a good system for concepts without a submission thread and a separate discussion thread.

So, all in all, for CAP21 I would prefer we have the old concept submission thread but after submissions close also have a short concept discussion thread like we had in CAP20. I think this system would be a suitable temporary solution that for the most part carries through with the positives of both systems we've used in recent history, and then we can work out the kinks for future CAP concepts later.

 

[Da Pizza Man]

Personally, while I do think we should implement our old system into the frey for CAP 21, I am also thinking that we should have more than just the TL working on the slate. Now, I have nothing against jas, but imo doing the old concept submission method gives us the risk of repeating why we made the CAP concept workshop to begin with. This is espically dangerous with CAP 21 being the mega concept, so it is even more likely to end in failure if we only have one person make the slate. Right now, I support this idea but only if the TL works with the Concept QC team to make the slate

 

[nyttyn]

Personally, while I do think we should implement our old system into the frey for CAP 21, I am also thinking that we should have more than just the TL working on the slate. Now, I have nothing against jas, but imo doing the old concept submission method gives us the risk of repeating why we made the CAP concept workshop to begin with. This is espically dangerous with CAP 21 being the mega concept, so it is even more likely to end in failure if we only have one person make the slate. Right now, I support this idea but only if the TL works with the Concept QC team to make the slate

Putting aside the fact that the TL making the slate was never a major factor behind the genesis of the concept workshop, and that the TL was allowed (for the one project we've used it) to pick the slate anyway, the only concept QC members left who're active are me and ginga so it wouldn't do much good anyways. Doubly so since I don't think me and jas and ginga would particularly see eye to eye on the slate and it'd result in gridlock.

 

[EternalSnowman]

Yeah I have nothing really to add here, but I definitely agree with what you are putting out on the table, essentially what nyttyn said states it all, the entire discussion and submissions have been kinda reduced to being nothing but crappy posts.

 

[Birkal]

I have a lot to say on the topic of the Concept Workshop. But time is of the essence and I am phone posting. I am comfortable with jas' bolded proposal; we can make this adjustment for CAP 21 and discuss it more thoroughly when we aren't deep into the step being discussed.

 

[Mova]

I really have nothing to add here, but I agree with jas' proposal overall. After all, the thread has been reduced to nothing but poor discussion and submissions recently.

 

[Cretacerus]

I think this is a completely valid proposal for the Topic Leader to make, since he should be comfortable with the concept options he's working with first and foremost. If that means adding an additional stage to the process, I don't see much reason not to do so if it might help solve the issue.
However, I’m not in favor of completely ceasing to use the Concept Workshop, since we did spend a respectable amount of time gathering and assessing decent concept ideas which I’d hate to see going to waste. Therefore, I have to agree with Ignus that the previously approved concepts should be at least considered for the slate.

In a longer term, I can definitely see how the lack of excitement and participation is the greatest issue the current Concept Workshop is struggling with.
In the past, people would prepare their concepts for months to make sure it got chance to be slated, and if it didn’t they would improve on their concept or find a new one with better chances for the next project.
Nowadays, the prospect of a concept ending up on the slate is much lower, since it has to pass through a stringent quality control and probably multiple months of discussion before even getting the chance to be slated by the Topic Leader. Naturally, the excitement to submit concept suffers from this, and at the same time the willingness of people to invest the large amount of time needed for quality submissions. Add the constant complaints about the low quality of submissions, and it’s quite clear to see how the low chances of getting slated, long waiting times, and negative feedback from above form an environment actively discouraging participation.

Don’t get me wrong, I like the concept behind the Workshop and think it has a lot of important advantages over the old process, but we really have to be more open-minded and appreciative towards those participating if we want it to succeed.
Remember that we aren’t looking for perfect submissions, and that there is lots of opportunity to improve on them later on in their individual discussion threads should the base idea have potential, something that couldn’t be done to this degree in the past concept process.

 

[nyttyn]

Don’t get me wrong, I like the concept behind the Workshop and think it has a lot of important advantages over the old process, but we really have to be more open-minded and appreciative towards those participating if we want it to succeed.
Remember that we aren’t looking for perfect submissions, and that there is lots of opportunity to improve on them later on in their individual discussion threads should the base idea have potential, something that couldn’t be done to this degree in the past concept process.

I'd LOVE to be more open-minded, but "improve upon" and the rest of the tone of this post suggests there's any usable material in the current workshop - and there, most certainly and absolutely, is not.

A large majority of concepts showcase a failure to read the rules, as a LOT of concepts either don't follow the OP's format, or have weird italics, random bolding, or are just undecipherable walls of text or one liners.

From there, a lot of the majority of the remaining concepts are either blatantly unreasonable, or sound good in theory but immediately collapse after you talk to anyone else about them.

From there, there's nothing that managed to scrape past "usable with some work" territory. I say this as one of the largest supporters of a more-open, accepting CAP - there is nothing in that thread worth salvaging. I've already encouraged Ginga to be a bit nicer on the appreciation font, but can you blame him? We get droves and droves of utter shite that showcase a complete lack of willingness to even read the rules, and the rest is just poorly thought out or impossible.

I mean this with all due pleasantries, and I do not wish to dismiss anyone as unredeemable or a moron, but there are very few concepts that seem to have gone beyond a quick 15 minutes of thinking on the loo or taking a shower, and practically none of them take practicality into account at all. As much as I would LOVE to be on board the "be more accepting" camp, not a single one is close to salvageable, except maybe parting shot and paitent mega, the former of which there's clearly no interest in, and the later of which is too volatile to work under a untested system (and requires some pretty hefty overhauls to fit into the CAP process anyway).

If anyone has any examples of concepts from the current thread that you feel I may have overlooked, by all means provide me with countearguments.


Though this discussion should probably wait for the full-fledged Concept Workshop thread.

 

[Birkal]

For CAP 21, and CAP 21 only, we cease to use the concept workshop, and re-instate the concept process used previously in CAP 19 and earlier projects. The future of CAP concept submissions will then be discussed more in depth following CAP 21.

​

The future of CAP concepts may not be in either the old process or the concept workshop, but the details of that are something we can work out in a future PR thread. Right now, we need to work to salvage the current project, and I don't think we can do that by sticking with the concept workshop. I said this in a conversation with the other moderators, but I think it deserves repeating: believe me, I love the concept stage, and helping lead it was the best part of being TL on Malaconda for me, but right now, with the way things are set up, not only does it feel like nothing is happening, but I feel completely helpless to do anything about it. This is a terrible situation, and while I am certainly trying to deal with it as best I can, I would never want anyone to ever be put in this situation as a TL.

I'm pushing this bolded proposal forward. It seems like we have good community consensus about the temporary switch-up to making an individual thread about CAP21's Concept Submission thread in the main CAP forum. I will personally host a discussion on the validity of the Concept Workshop at another date. Until then, let's all focus in on the new submission thread. Thanks to everyone for making this a quick and relatively easy conversation! It warms my heart to know that CAP members will rally together to share their opinions on issues in a short amount of time.

Let's keep moving!